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Made in us
Furious Fire Dragon




USA

Martel732 wrote:
 mokoshkana wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
"Wow! much hate for Hellblaster's. I'm surprised. My bud has 3x7 with UM chapter master, occasionally bobby g, and a relic banner and there's nothing we can throw at it that sticks. It's brutal. To the point where it's rendered any vehicle without T8 and ++ useless."

That list loses instantly to Drukhari. Try throwing dissy cannons. They'll stick.
Many lists will theoretically always "loses instantly" to a specific list or build. Based on that, no one should ever play any of those lists, right?


I was providing an example of something that would "stick". That being said, none of the optimal targets for hellblasters are meta threats. So why use them?
Because tactics involve more than just the meta? Because the meta can always change with an FAQ or a supplement release? Because it could be fun and fluffy for a Primaris BA army? There are a plethora of reasons to use and discuss various units. By your logic, we should ignore anything that doesn't win major events, which means that BA shouldn't be discussed at all...

We mortals are but shadows and dust...
6k
:harlequin: 2k
2k
2k 
   
Made in ca
Dakka Veteran




Maybe you haven’t noticed but BA haven’t really been discussed at all for months and months. This thread is a graveyard outside of when we get updated rules 3 times a year, which ironically seems to make us play worse with each update. Power fist intercessor sergeants are about the best thing GW has done for us in a year and I’m not even sure we have access to them. Meanwhile 3 FAQs and 2 CA later it seems our garbage units are still garbage, rules still aren’t clarified, and our ways to win games keep decreasing.

I think you’ll find most of us left here are here because we like our models and want to have fun but those reasons make for a pretty piss poor tactics thread.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut



Glasgow

I mean tactically there is no change take smashy HQ + scouts add to another army. Anything else is fun idea wise but will never be even tier 2. Its also why my BA need dusting.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/13 13:09:58


 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




Actually there are a lot of new ba builds coming I think. Just none involve hellblasters. I don't find them fluffy at all, because they are best vs other imperials. They are terrible anti-xeno so why would ba even bother? The imperium is not the enemy.

Hellblasters needed to be armed with -2 ap autocannons to be useful vs xenos.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/13 18:35:52


 
   
Made in ca
Dakka Veteran




If assault plasma incinerators functioned more like stormbolters, with better strength and AP but worse than standard incinerators i’d crack open the box of ten I have sitting in the basement.

Re: builds not much is changing for me. Doubling down on more SG, while Intercessors definitively push Tacs out of my lists. I might drop down to one battalion instead of two and try to rely on less stratagem gimmicks. My beloved Baal Preds will stay parked on the shelf. DC likely won’t see action. Hellblasters won’t. Some Devs will remain. No termies. No veterans. Likely no bikes but I might experiment with them some more.
   
Made in fi
Raging-on-the-Inside Blood Angel Sergeant





Are we really in that weak spot? I don't think so, not the top tier, but in any non-ultra competitive setting we should have a chance anyway and who would ever want to have an army which has the best win ratio on major events.

I still need to test those dreads on christmas holidays, but atleast my list builds now have one fragioso for testing. BA special units I think Lemartes is worth the points, SG ancient for sure, SG with the points drop is very valid atleast in my meta, I think almost every game my opponent has said that my SG blob was my MvP. In friendlies I just drop the storm shield from my Cpt Slam to inferno pistol to avoid TFG. Also I'm still gathering more data on validness of jump packed Cvets with the points drop. DC is still of the menu. Now with the points drops on plasma I will try out twin plasma cannon heavy bolter variant (hurricanes if I have to points) for cheapest transport for Librarian dread/DC dread.. Hardest thing is to decide do I embark something else in it. Also primaris intercerssors with a power sword feel a lot more attractive as a mandatory troop choice.

One more thing, I don't know why on earth I haven't fielded power axes if I have the points more often than power sword. In my latest experiments wounds meq/chaff on 2 and DG on 3 in a volume of attacks has been better that -3 AP, but should do some real mathammering to see if it's really a true input. Not every enemy have a 3+..

   
Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

I had good success with a combi plasma on my captain slammy and +1 to damage on it from artisan of war. Deepstrike, overcharge, re-roll 1s to hit, usually wounding on 2s or 3s, and 3 damage per wound. If the target is still alive, charge it and use the hammer to finish it off. I will play company vets with PG and SS, they got a nice point reduction, and their weapons as well. Dreads may come back as well.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/13 22:31:47


 
   
Made in ca
Dakka Veteran




Axes are a foolish choice on SG. Or anything else. Even moreso after Saturday.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut



Glasgow

Xirax wrote:
Are we really in that weak spot? I don't think so, not the top tier, but in any non-ultra competitive setting we should have a chance anyway and who would ever want to have an army which has the best win ratio on major events.

I still need to test those dreads on christmas holidays, but atleast my list builds now have one fragioso for testing. BA special units I think Lemartes is worth the points, SG ancient for sure, SG with the points drop is very valid atleast in my meta, I think almost every game my opponent has said that my SG blob was my MvP. In friendlies I just drop the storm shield from my Cpt Slam to inferno pistol to avoid TFG. Also I'm still gathering more data on validness of jump packed Cvets with the points drop. DC is still of the menu. Now with the points drops on plasma I will try out twin plasma cannon heavy bolter variant (hurricanes if I have to points) for cheapest transport for Librarian dread/DC dread.. Hardest thing is to decide do I embark something else in it. Also primaris intercerssors with a power sword feel a lot more attractive as a mandatory troop choice.

One more thing, I don't know why on earth I haven't fielded power axes if I have the points more often than power sword. In my latest experiments wounds meq/chaff on 2 and DG on 3 in a volume of attacks has been better that -3 AP, but should do some real mathammering to see if it's really a true input. Not every enemy have a 3+..



The minute you have to preface with non-ultra competative setting that means your in a weak spot compared to others. That doesn't mean a cherrypicked unit can't compete but your an adendum to something else not the main show.
   
Made in ca
Dakka Veteran




Yeah people, come on, we are solidly middle of the pack if you cut the top 33% out of the comparison!
   
Made in de
Enginseer with a Wrench






Martel732 wrote:
Actually there are a lot of new ba builds coming I think. Just none involve hellblasters. I don't find them fluffy at all, because they are best vs other imperials. They are terrible anti-xeno so why would ba even bother? The imperium is not the enemy.

Hellblasters needed to be armed with -2 ap autocannons to be useful vs xenos.


What builds for example? (Genuinely interested)
   
Made in fi
Raging-on-the-Inside Blood Angel Sergeant





Bremon wrote:
Axes are a foolish choice on SG. Or anything else. Even moreso after Saturday.


I didn't say encarmine.. Fists are to go choice for sure on SG. Sergeants, lieutenants etc who I might give a power sword if I have the spare points..

As for ultra-comp , how many of us are aiming on BAO etc biggest GT too tables where you play TFG cheese when you just look for the most broken units and combo's waiting to be nerfed next FAQ/CA..
   
Made in ca
Dakka Veteran




Xirax wrote:
Bremon wrote:
Axes are a foolish choice on SG. Or anything else. Even moreso after Saturday.


I didn't say encarmine.. Fists are to go choice for sure on SG. Sergeants, lieutenants etc who I might give a power sword if I have the spare points..

As for ultra-comp , how many of us are aiming on BAO etc biggest GT too tables where you play TFG cheese when you just look for the most broken units and combo's waiting to be nerfed next FAQ/CA..

Running our characters with anything that doesn’t do multiple damage is never a good idea imo.

Against MEQ/DG you won’t find a difference between axe and sword statistically, only anecdotally. The only thing the ace is going to help you with over a sword against DG is beating on plagueburst crawlers, thanks to wasted AP due to invuln and T8. Otherwise against the other daemon engines, same story again; sword doesn’t pierce armour better and axe doesn’t help you wound easier.
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




 lash92 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Actually there are a lot of new ba builds coming I think. Just none involve hellblasters. I don't find them fluffy at all, because they are best vs other imperials. They are terrible anti-xeno so why would ba even bother? The imperium is not the enemy.

Hellblasters needed to be armed with -2 ap autocannons to be useful vs xenos.


What builds for example? (Genuinely interested)


Lists with vv, repulsors, land raiders and dante. I dont have the book yet, so havent formalized anything.
   
Made in ca
Dakka Veteran




I’m incredibly skeptical of a resurgence of Land Raiders, Repulsors, or Dante. A few weeks of experimenting, sure, but a month after CA the only things we will see more of are VV. Dante doesn’t jive with a bodyguard unit that can achieve his buffs elsewhere, can’t hunt characters all that well, and has no place buffing a gunline. He’s 175 points of multiple personality disorder.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
VV shield and pistol cowboys are a possibility but our biggest buff was power fists for intercessor sergeants.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/14 20:14:12


 
   
Made in us
Road-Raging Blood Angel Biker




South Jerzey

UWOF can mitigate that problem a bit right? Costs CP but he can first turn buff a gunline then deepstrike up with a SG/VV thats assaulting in. Next turn He could then forseeably move back and provide buffs to mobile vehicles or assault in depending what the game dictates. Sounds pretty flexible to me in theory. LRs and repulsors have potms right so maybe you dont even need to use UWOF just move up the board and DOA in

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/12/14 21:42:10


 
   
Made in ca
Dakka Veteran




That’s the problem with theory crafting on this forum though; you run out of CP pretty quick if you want to run mono faction BA. Now that UWOF is 2CP it uses nearly a third of your CP to bounce twice. There are so many other things you want to do;

Descent of Angels: 2CP, you might even use this twice
Forlorn Fury: 2CP... if you don’t use this (I don’t) you’re almost guaranteed to use DOA if you run DC.

That leaves 3 solid options for DOA: SG, Capt Slam, and DC.

Red Rampage; 1CP. You’re almost certain to use this at least once.
OIDDDE/Honour the Chapter: 2/3CP; you’re likely using this to crack the enemy’s most crucial target.
DVoS: pretty popular option. I don’t use it much but it’s common.

Using UWOF twice among the rest of that leaves you pretty much 0 tactical rerolls, which I use for rerolling critical saves or rerolling damage rolls of 1 in disappointing moments of lascannon and missile launcher firepower, let alone the chunk of time you need a reroll to make DOA actually work, or Unleash Rage to pop off to make SG functional.
   
Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

With the point reductions we can easily use a brigade or two battalions (at 2k) if we need more CP.
   
Made in ca
Dakka Veteran




I already use 2 battalions at 1500.
   
Made in us
Road-Raging Blood Angel Biker




South Jerzey

 p5freak wrote:
With the point reductions we can easily use a brigade or two battalions (at 2k) if we need more CP.


What are you thining for the FA slot. Does anyone know if inceptors are getting changed?
   
Made in ca
Dakka Veteran




I think bikes might be the best choice for FA after their points drop. I don’t believe Inceptors changed. Hopefully in the next six months we get wave 2 of Primaris and get a real FA jump pack Primaris that can handle melee properly.
   
Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

Tpiddy wrote:
 p5freak wrote:
With the point reductions we can easily use a brigade or two battalions (at 2k) if we need more CP.


What are you thining for the FA slot. Does anyone know if inceptors are getting changed?


Inceptors are unchanged. Scout bikers dropped two points, they are now 71 pts. for 22 bolter like shots at 12". And land speeders dropped quite a lot. One with twin heavy flamer is now 78 pts. Or 70 with twin HB.
   
Made in us
Road-Raging Blood Angel Biker




South Jerzey

Scout bikes sound great. Man those models though....
   
Made in ca
Dakka Veteran




Scouts are such hideous minis that I can’t bring myself to spend hard earned money on them.
   
Made in be
Regular Dakkanaut




Alot of units need to be checked to see if it's worht including them.

SA, Astorath, Lemartes, LibbyDread, scout bikes are up there along with VV (both melee and cowboy setup) and SG (fist with inferno mix).

Intercessor, repulsor, LR crusader, furioso, attack bikes, terminators. Dunno about those.

Anything i misssed ?

I still feel all vehicle entries for SM are underwhelming in general if you don't go buff gunline.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/15 11:27:50


 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




Bremon wrote:
I’m incredibly skeptical of a resurgence of Land Raiders, Repulsors, or Dante. A few weeks of experimenting, sure, but a month after CA the only things we will see more of are VV. Dante doesn’t jive with a bodyguard unit that can achieve his buffs elsewhere, can’t hunt characters all that well, and has no place buffing a gunline. He’s 175 points of multiple personality disorder.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
VV shield and pistol cowboys are a possibility but our biggest buff was power fists for intercessor sergeants.


Dante isn't for SG. He's a full reroll bubble that moves 12" Dante kills characters better than you might think. He's not for buffing a gunline. He buffs an advancing line. Repulsor overwatch is brutal with Dante. I'll know more in a couple months.
   
Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

Martel732 wrote:

Dante isn't for SG. He's a full reroll bubble that moves 12" Dante kills characters better than you might think. He's not for buffing a gunline. He buffs an advancing line. Repulsor overwatch is brutal with Dante. I'll know more in a couple months.


Dante still isnt worth the points. Not even in an advancing gunline. Captn slamguinius does everything better than dante, even with only re-rolls of 1. He is also 50 points cheaper. It would be different if dante would add 1 or 2 CPs, like other leaders from other factions do. Repulsors suck.
   
Made in us
Road-Raging Blood Angel Biker




South Jerzey

Slam isnt buffing much. And dantes full reroll will assist that overwatch much more. Coupled with fly keyword and the -2 to charges against, it may make people think before charging atleast. The crazy dakka should Scale well with the full reroll. Im curious if itll work! Dont have the bills to try it tho lol

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/16 14:38:05


 
   
Made in ch
Regular Dakkanaut




Guys how about a suicide vanguard veteran jump pack unit with double plasma pistols and the sergent with SS and plasma pistol aswell?
I still have them in the box and plenty of plasma pistols from the DC sprue I'd like to find a use for.
   
Made in ca
Dakka Veteran




Martel732 wrote:
Bremon wrote:
I’m incredibly skeptical of a resurgence of Land Raiders, Repulsors, or Dante. A few weeks of experimenting, sure, but a month after CA the only things we will see more of are VV. Dante doesn’t jive with a bodyguard unit that can achieve his buffs elsewhere, can’t hunt characters all that well, and has no place buffing a gunline. He’s 175 points of multiple personality disorder.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
VV shield and pistol cowboys are a possibility but our biggest buff was power fists for intercessor sergeants.


Dante isn't for SG. He's a full reroll bubble that moves 12" Dante kills characters better than you might think. He's not for buffing a gunline. He buffs an advancing line. Repulsor overwatch is brutal with Dante. I'll know more in a couple months.

I’m well aware Dante isn’t for SG. I stated as much in the post you quoted. I was solely reminiscing on the idea that BA Honour Guard used to be a thing, then transitioned to SG, and is now just another mechanic that other chapters do better than we do.

I don’t see your repulsor overwatch coming to fruition much, full rerolls of overwatch is still worse than 5+ overwatch would be. Keep us filled in though. He’d certainly help standard shooting. An advancing gunline... sure. I just don’t see him doing things better than captain smash, especially for the points. Any anyone with S6 and D3 damage isn’t hunting the more dangerous characters around. If you want him to pick off a librarian or something though, sure, go nuts.

Maybe when Dante gets the latest HGH, cortisone and collagen injections he’ll be a much improved Primaris marine and will have a true purpose.
   
 
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