No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]

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**Marklarr**

I’m pretty sure any unit inside a truck or wagon isn’t gong to get the +1 to hit, it’s an aura ability.

**BaconCatBug**

Marklarr wrote:
I’m pretty sure any unit inside a truck or wagon isn’t gong to get the +1 to hit, it’s an aura ability.

The modifier gets transferred due to the Open Topped rule. The unit inside doesn't benefit from the aura. Because the Trukk gets +1 to hit, the unit inside does.

**Emicrania**

And the other way around also? Does the tunkabusta trigger the ability for other units?

Edit: yes they can, the limit to the trukk is about aura abilities,not army rules

**Vineheart01**

the freeboota bonus is actually one of the FEW effects that do transfer to the occupants.

Open Topped applies modifiers on the vehicle to the occupants. Dunno bout you but +1 to hit is definitely 100% a modifier.

That being said, the vehicle itself cannot trigger the Freeboota trait for the occupants because it doesnt give the bonus to itself, has to be another unit that triggers it. So a wagon off on its own with tankbustas/freebootas will never benefit from the +1, but 24" is such a huge bubble you kinda have to TRY to be that isolated.

**The Shrike**

Can someone explain to me why Grot Shields is so good? You can’t use the same stratagem more than once a phase. So your opponent shoots X at your Lootas or what have you, you blow the CP to block it, then he proceeds to blow them away right? New to Orks, someone help me.

**BaconCatBug**

The Shrike wrote:
Can someone explain to me why Grot Shields is so good? You can’t use the same stratagem more than once a phase. So your opponent shoots X at your Lootas or what have you, you blow the CP to block it, then he proceeds to blow them away right? New to Orks, someone help me.

Grot shields lasts for the entire phase, not just the shooting attack that triggers it.

**Emicrania**

The best thing about it is that you can have grots anywhere (easily) hidden and , as long they are closer to the enemy , they count for the purpose of the stratagem.
The only thing I don't understand it is what happens if you have multiple units close by; can you keep on using grots or is it limited to one unit ?

**Vineheart01**

Grot Shields also targets the ork unit not the grot unit
So if you have 2 min squads of grots in front of the orks, and one dies, the stratagem still works for the other grot unit.

**Marklarr**

BaconCatBug wrote:
Marklarr wrote:
I’m pretty sure any unit inside a truck or wagon isn’t gong to get the +1 to hit, it’s an aura ability.
The modifier gets transferred due to the Open Topped rule. The unit inside doesn't benefit from the aura. Because the Trukk gets +1 to hit, the unit inside does.

Hmmm something about that just doesn’t seem quite right to me. But if you are correct, would that mean moar dakka and the wreckers stratagem would effect passengers if they were used on the truck?

**BaconCatBug**

Marklarr wrote:
BaconCatBug wrote:
Marklarr wrote:
I’m pretty sure any unit inside a truck or wagon isn’t gong to get the +1 to hit, it’s an aura ability.
The modifier gets transferred due to the Open Topped rule. The unit inside doesn't benefit from the aura. Because the Trukk gets +1 to hit, the unit inside does.

Hmmm something about that just doesn’t seem quite right to me. But if you are correct, would that mean moar dakka and the wreckers stratagem would effect passengers if they were used on the truck?

More Dakka isn't a modifier, so no. Re-rolls are not a modifier, so no.

**Emicrania**

It was explicitly Faq'ed that you can't you stratagem for models/troops inside transports

**BaconCatBug**

You are not using a stratagem on the unit inside, you're using it on the Trukk. The Tukk's special rule Open Topped transfers any modifiers it would suffer/benefit from to the unit inside. That means if the unit inside shoots a unit of Eldar Rangers, they suffer -1 to hit, etc.

More Dakka and Wreckers are not modifiers. If a stratagem granted a +1 to hit or wound or other such modifier from somewhere (I can't remember off the top of my head), it would be passed onto the occupants.

**flaming tadpole**

BaconCatBug wrote:
You are not using a stratagem on the unit inside, you're using it on the Trukk. The Tukk's special rule Open Topped transfers any modifiers it would suffer/benefit from to the unit inside. That means if the unit inside shoots a unit of Eldar Rangers, they suffer -1 to hit, etc.

More Dakka and Wreckers are not modifiers. If a stratagem granted a +1 to hit or wound or other such modifier from somewhere (I can't remember off the top of my head), it would be passed onto the occupants.

Q: Do Stratagems used on a Transport affect units embarked within that transport?
A: No

**BaconCatBug**

flaming tadpole wrote:
BaconCatBug wrote:
You are not using a stratagem on the unit inside, you're using it on the Trukk. The Tukk's special rule Open Topped transfers any modifiers it would suffer/benefit from to the unit inside. That means if the unit inside shoots a unit of Eldar Rangers, they suffer -1 to hit, etc.

More Dakka and Wreckers are not modifiers. If a stratagem granted a +1 to hit or wound or other such modifier from somewhere (I can't remember off the top of my head), it would be passed onto the occupants.

Q: Do Stratagems used on a Transport affect units embarked within that transport?
A: No

Yes, well done. If you use a Stratagem on a Trukk, the unit inside doesn't benefit from the Stratagem.
The unit inside benefits from the Open Topped rule, which isn't a stratagem.

Why is this so difficult for people to understand?

**blaktoof**

BaconCatBug wrote:
flaming tadpole wrote:
BaconCatBug wrote:
You are not using a stratagem on the unit inside, you're using it on the Trukk. The Tukk's special rule Open Topped transfers any modifiers it would suffer/benefit from to the unit inside. That means if the unit inside shoots a unit of Eldar Rangers, they suffer -1 to hit, etc.

More Dakka and Wreckers are not modifiers. If a stratagem granted a +1 to hit or wound or other such modifier from somewhere (I can't remember off the top of my head), it would be passed onto the occupants.

Q: Do Stratagems used on a Transport affect units embarked within that transport?
A: No
Yes, well done. If you use a Stratagem on a Trukk, the unit inside doesn't benefit from the Stratagem.
The unit inside benefits from the Open Topped rule, which isn't a stratagem.

Why is this so difficult for people to understand?

I believe baconcatbug is correct.

Open topped does state it transfers modifiers, and this is a modifier.

For the same reason an unit in a transport would have -1 to hit if the transport had open topped and was more than 12" of an enemy unit that had -1 to hit for units more than 12" away.

**flaming tadpole**

blaktoof wrote:
BaconCatBug wrote:
flaming tadpole wrote:
BaconCatBug wrote:
You are not using a stratagem on the unit inside, you're using it on the Trukk. The Tukk's special rule Open Topped transfers any modifiers it would suffer/benefit from to the unit inside. That means if the unit inside shoots a unit of Eldar Rangers, they suffer -1 to hit, etc.

More Dakka and Wreckers are not modifiers. If a stratagem granted a +1 to hit or wound or other such modifier from somewhere (I can't remember off the top of my head), it would be passed onto the occupants.

Q: Do Stratagems used on a Transport affect units embarked within that transport?
A: No
Yes, well done. If you use a Stratagem on a Trukk, the unit inside doesn't benefit from the Stratagem.
The unit inside benefits from the Open Topped rule, which isn't a stratagem.

Why is this so difficult for people to understand?

I believe baconcatbug is correct.

Open topped does state it transfers modifiers, and this is a modifier.

For the same reason an unit in a transport would have -1 to hit if the transport had open topped and was more than 12" of an enemy unit that had -1 to hit for units more than 12" away.

But that's a stratagem or psychic power being used on the unit your trying to hit not the actual opened topped vehicle itself. I know certain modifiers transfer from opened topped transports to its occupants, but what it sounds like bacon is trying to say is that certain stratagems you use on your transport such as +1 to hit against fly units would transfer to the unit inside when RAI clearly states otherwise.

**BaconCatBug**

flaming tadpole wrote:
Because you haven't explained your argument well. Right now it sounds like your saying that the opened topped rule somehow overrides the fact that GW explicitly said passengers can't benefit from stratagems used on their transports. Are you talking about stratagems or not?

The open topped rule does not "override" anything. You use a stratagem on the Trukk, the Trukk benefits from the stratagem. The Open Topped rule says any modifiers that apply to the Trukk apply to the passengers.

The passengers are not being affected by the stratagem.

**flaming tadpole**

BaconCatBug wrote:
flaming tadpole wrote:
Because you haven't explained your argument well. Right now it sounds like your saying that the opened topped rule somehow overrides the fact that GW explicitly said passengers can't benefit from stratagems used on their transports. Are you talking about stratagems or not?
The open topped rule does not "override" anything. You use a stratagem on the Trukk, the Trukk benefits from the stratagem. The Open Topped rule says any modifiers that apply to the Trukk apply to the passengers.

The passengers are not being affected by the stratagem.

I'm sure there's a case to argue for that RAW wise, but you understand where people are coming from right? The FAQ seems pretty much as straight forward as possible that GW doesn't want stratagems affecting units whether it's from a primary or secondary source. I haven't asked any TO's about it but I would be genuinely surprised if they ruled in favor of the RAW interpretation assuming they've read the FAQ. Could be wrong, but I don't think it's something you should bank on going your way at a tournament. Not that it would matter anyways since if your bringing vehicles right now your not gonna do well regardless.

**BaconCatBug**

... Are you literally saying "I don't like what the rules say, therefore I'll ignore them?"

**flandarz**

I think it's kind of a moot argument anyway. Only 2 Ork Stratagems in the Codex grant Modifiers.

1) Long Uncontrolled Bursts, used on an Ork Vehicle that can Fly and granted a +1 to-hit against enemy models that Fly.

2) Monster Hunters, used on an enemy model with 10+ Wounds and grants a +1 to Wound to Snakebite models in your army.

The second one targets the enemy, so the FAQ doesn't apply to it. The first one targets the vehicle, so the FAQ would apply.

However, if we assume that Stratagems used on a Transport, even ones granting Modifiers, don't transfer to the occupants regardless of Open-Top stating that Modifiers transfer, then that means any Stratagem that gives out a -1 to hit would ALSO not affect the Orkz inside the Transport.

**flaming tadpole**

BaconCatBug wrote:
... Are you literally saying "I don't like what the rules say, therefore I'll ignore them?"

No, but apparently you are. The FAQ makes it clear as day how stratagems that YOU use affect the occupants. We're not talking about stratagems your opponent use that affect your transports the argument is about the stratagems YOU use, which the faq states DOES NOT affect the occupants in anyway. What would be the point of them putting that in an FAQ if the openned topped rule simply ignores it?

**flandarz**

Honestly, the wording of Open-Topped and that FAQ makes it very nebulous as to whether or not the unit inside would get the +1.

Open-topped: Models embarked on this model can
attack in their Shooting phase. Measure the range and
draw line of sight from any point on this model. When
they do so, any restrictions or modifiers that apply to
this model also apply to its passengers; for example, the
passengers cannot shoot if this model has Fallen Back
in the same turn, cannot shoot (except with Pistols) if
this model is within 1" of an enemy unit, and so on.

Q: Do Stratagems used on a Transport affect units embarked within that transport?
A: No

It's pretty easy to say that using a Stratagem that gives a modifier on a Transport does not transfer that modifier to the occupants. Also really easy to say that the Stratagem isn't affecting the units embarked, but they're just being subject to any restrictions and modifiers that the Transport is also subject to. Open-Top may need a specific FAQ to address this.

**BaconCatBug**

flaming tadpole wrote:
BaconCatBug wrote:
... Are you literally saying "I don't like what the rules say, therefore I'll ignore them?"
No, but apparently you are. The FAQ makes it clear as day how stratagems that YOU use affect the occupants. We're not talking about stratagems your opponent use that affect your transports the argument is about the stratagems YOU use, which the faq states DOES NOT affect the occupants in anyway. What would be the point of them putting that in an FAQ if the openned topped rule simply ignores it?

It's almost like different rules do different things?

The open-topped rule is what gives the occupants a bonus, not the stratagem.

**Emicrania**

I feel like I lost the thread here, but are we talking about the +1 from freebooterz? Because that is neither a stratagem, neither a modifier, that is a wide army rule.

**blaktoof**

Emicrania wrote:
I feel like I lost the thread here, but are we talking about the +1 from freebooterz? Because that is neither a stratagem, neither a modifier, that is a wide army rule.

I thought we were discussing the freebooterz rule. It grants a modifer and is not a stratagem so open topped would confer it to the passengers.

**hollow one**

An Actual Englishman wrote:
I think we need to accept the reality that Orks just aren't that competitive. Its OK. We have been here before, in many previous editions.

The two lists that finished 16th and 17th are held as some paragons of competitive play. A mono Tau list finished higher. Much higher. As did a mono SM list of all things. The Ork lists that finished 16th and 17th were also piloted by some of the best players of the game bar none.

At the LVO this year our weaknesses were exposed and they are (currently) as follows;
1. An over reliance on stratagems to be effective.
2. No cost effective way to deal with heavy armour.
3. Too fragile without strats.
4. Obvious, simple tactics.
5. Most of our units are too expensive to be competitive therefore our unit choices are obvious and limited. Making counter play easy.

I think its pretty obvious given our results post codex that we are not a competitive army to be feared. Yes good players can take a variation of the same build and perform adequately. But if Nick and Steve can't break top 8, I don't see what else can be done without sweeping points reductions.

2 Ork players in top 50 of LVO.
5 Ork players in top 100 of LVO.

We made up over 10% of the meta.

These numbers don't lie. We need something. Hopefully GW decide to reprice our units in the big FAQ or something. Otherwise we sit as a gatekeeper army at best, a poor army at worst.

One of the best players in the world disagrees with you.
However, the stats look to show 46% overall winrate for Orks.

I expect this is because the army is very complicated to play, but when played well is top tier. I say this in so many words a lot on these forums, but this is a clear case of "git gud". The list has the chops, obviously, the list beats basically anything, its unanimous in the podcast/tourney-scene that the list is good and the "ork-meta" is a real thing. But if you watch Nick's re-enactment of the game vs Alex's flyers , it is seriously complicated. You need to make sure all grots are within a warboss, all lootas are safe and play appropriately around vect, stagger your loota presence, mob up/tide/jump all at the right times without throwing away units, tripoint with grots running across the whole table, be mindful enough to bring the badmoon flamer relic, position weirdboys to get max smite damage etc.

This list does not play itself. Any lesser player would just place the 22 lootas down, mob up, and get wiped by the flyers and vect. When you say "obvious, simple tactics" it just proves to me you don't play this list. And there are likely a lot of orks out there net-listing this list and just losing, not understanding why it is strong or how complicated it is to play.

**tneva82**

Well. Orks aren't showing consistent top positions so...One of the players disagreeing is all fine and dandy. Howabout he show it then with actual evidence and get consistently to top-10's with the orks?

I don't see much top-10 orks. Just the usual imperium soup and eldar soup.

When soup is such an inheritent advantage mono codexes will always struggle. Maybe orks were top level codex if soup wasn't but as it is soup>mono.

**Sluggaloo**

How aren't Orks a top tier codex when two pros commandeering them lost to hard counters by tiny point margins at the lvo. They performed really well. They smashed many other armies as a mono dex. These claims that Orks are gate keeper at best are laughable.

**PiñaColada**

I'm not sure I agree that the flyer list is a hard counter to Orks. You know what's a hard counter to difficult to hit T6 supersonic flyers? S7 weapons that don't suffer negative penalties to hit. Played correctly they're both tough on each other. The super SAG (even hitting on 6's) can still wreck flyers as well as the weirdboyz with super smites.

That matchup is winnable, Brandon Grant won it by basically enduring on the ground and scoring just a bit more. I'm not sure if the Orks vs Flyers spam games are recorded anywhere but I'd be interested to see where it all goes wrong. I wonder if the Ork players overextended their hand T1 and got countered by scatterbikes. I will say that the space elf list looks terrible to play against and consists of almost exclusively undercosted units so there's no shame in losing to it.

Just in general in regards to where Orks stand, I still think it's a bit early to say but I personally doubt they'll be winning any big tournaments. And now with the beta bolter rule being implemented and GSC having dropped I'd assume things are getting worse, not better. I think people forget that unless we get point drops in the March FAQ the LVO were the best conditions Orks were going to get until CA 2019.

But hey, if we see a lot of top players continue running orks at the upcoming big events then that's a good indicator.

**Sluggaloo**

That Eldar flier list shuts down huge board space by just plonking big fat un-assaultable flier bases everywhere. The fact nick lost that game by a point or two is a testament to how good a player he is.