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Orks have the tools they are just all over the place.
Goff orks have they auras to make melee stronger
Str 5 skar boyz
Reroll hit of 1- ghaz
+1 to hit in melee- waagh banner
Exploding 6- goff
Exploding 5-6- strat
+1 atk w 20+ boyz

Add in 6+ fnp painboy And 5+ invul Big Mek Kff
And the biggest durability strat- green tide

All the above makes for a decent melee horde with enough durability and accuracy that even a bunch of str 5 hits with no ap becomes an issue...

The issue is all that stuff is expensive and costly in terms of points and strats just to make our core units decent at doing what they are supposed to. In other words some of this mercs to be rolled into the unit or clan.

What I really would love to see if the goff rocket made match play legal... but that requires to remake the model...

Battlewagon / Gunwagon / Bonebreaker - no extra model. Take Battlewagon with deffrolla and you CAN call it bonebreaker. Take Battlewagon with kannon and you CAN call it Gunwagon

Beardedragon wrote:
Can someone explain to me what a Gunwagon is?

Because its not sold on forge world nor Games workshop (at least i cant find it).

I can find a Battlewagon with a supa Kannon (which in my humble opinion, would sound like a gun wagon) but its still classified as a battlewagon on wahapedia.

So what exactly is a gunwagon and where is the model? Is it just a battlewagon that only has a kannon equipped and nothing else?

Also what is a "Bonebreaka" model when all other battlewagons can also take the Deff Rolla (and deff Rolla models are called bonebreakas?)??

I own none of these battlewagon models, and im super confused as to how they work and are classified.

What if i use a battlewagon with a kannon and a Deff Rolla, am i using the Bonebreaka or the Gunwagon?

Do you have the Ork codex? It's unclear since it seems you don't have a lot of the basic information that should be evident in the book.

Basically the battlewagon model has 3 distinct datasheets for it. The basic one is the one where you can basically take whatever you want on it, with no special rules or pre-built equipment. The bonebreaka, however, is another distinct datasheet where it comes base with the deffrolla and ard case (you CAN'T opt out of it) and also is more expensive baseline in terms of points. Furthermore, it has a special rule unique to its datasheet that gives it the extra D6 attacks on the charge.

Similarly, the Gunwagon comes base with a kannon and ard case. It uniquely has the periscope equipment/special rule that lets them shoot their main gun twice if they move under half-movement.

Basically, the reason why GW split them into 3 different datasheets despite having the same base model is so you can have a battlewagon centric army without having to deal with the rule of 3. It's also a way for them to specialize them into shooting/close combat roles while making sure you pay for the difference.

 Grimskul wrote:

Beardedragon wrote:
Can someone explain to me what a Gunwagon is?

Because its not sold on forge world nor Games workshop (at least i cant find it).

I can find a Battlewagon with a supa Kannon (which in my humble opinion, would sound like a gun wagon) but its still classified as a battlewagon on wahapedia.

So what exactly is a gunwagon and where is the model? Is it just a battlewagon that only has a kannon equipped and nothing else?

Also what is a "Bonebreaka" model when all other battlewagons can also take the Deff Rolla (and deff Rolla models are called bonebreakas?)??

I own none of these battlewagon models, and im super confused as to how they work and are classified.

What if i use a battlewagon with a kannon and a Deff Rolla, am i using the Bonebreaka or the Gunwagon?

Do you have the Ork codex? It's unclear since it seems you don't have a lot of the basic information that should be evident in the book.

Basically the battlewagon model has 3 distinct datasheets for it. The basic one is the one where you can basically take whatever you want on it, with no special rules or pre-built equipment. The bonebreaka, however, is another distinct datasheet where it comes base with the deffrolla and ard case (you CAN'T opt out of it) and also is more expensive baseline in terms of points. Furthermore, it has a special rule unique to its datasheet that gives it the extra D6 attacks on the charge.

Similarly, the Gunwagon comes base with a kannon and ard case. It uniquely has the periscope equipment/special rule that lets them shoot their main gun twice if they move under half-movement.

Basically, the reason why GW split them into 3 different datasheets despite having the same base model is so you can have a battlewagon centric army without having to deal with the rule of 3. It's also a way for them to specialize them into shooting/close combat roles while making sure you pay for the difference.

I have the codex but its not exactly that easy to decipher these things.

For starter the codex i have, from 8th edition does not state that the Bonebreaka datasheet comes with Ard' case? it comes with Explodes, Bonebreaka Ram, and Mobile Fortress.

Furthermore the Gunwagon also doesnt state that it comes with Ard' Case on my codex.

The only version of the battlewagon i can see that comes with Ard case is.. well the actual battlewagon datasheet, and the Battlewagon with Supa-Kannon.

So i dont know what you mean that i can find this info in the codex. i sure cant find it when i look at my data sheets.

If I am to understand my own Codex, if i want to use the Gunwagon with a kill kannon and get the periscope, i do NOT have the opportunity to get Ard case, but if i wanna use the battlewagon datasheet with a kill kannon, then i CANT use the periscope ability, but i CAN use ard' case.

So in this case, i dont think its a "Basic question". you have 3 (4 with supa cannon, 5 with Lifta cannon) different datasheet versions of the same unit that can effectively use many of the same weapons and overlap in roles, so how that actually works and what you are legally allowed to do, is not a basic question either.

i feel like its a good question for newer people (like me) as it clarifies a few things.

 Jidmah wrote:
I don't really see a reason to run four units of minimal troops. I would cut the fourth boyz unit and maybe the warbikers to have unit of MANz ride your forktress.

Good point, that would also give me more killing power and an additional obsec unit to capture contested objectives with. But does the Wartrike then have enough fast bodies to hide behind? I intended the bikers as extra wounds, but I guess it can also hide behind any other vehicles?

Regarding the meka dread killsaw
Just wait til next week when the forgeworld codex drops...
Also ghaz is on sale separately I can Finally stop using old ghaz model...

I think orks and guard are the 2 biggest benefactors from the forgeworld book maybe space
Marines but a lot of thier stuff is just lord of wars.

gungo wrote:
Regarding the meka dread killsaw
Just wait til next week when the forgeworld codex drops...
Also ghaz is on sale separately I can Finally stop using old ghaz model...

I think orks and guard are the 2 biggest benefactors from the forgeworld book maybe space
Marines but a lot of thier stuff is just lord of wars.

The new codex comes out in next week for forgeworld? oh nice.

I also have Ghaz though. does he also arrive next week?

Beardedragon wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:

Beardedragon wrote:
Can someone explain to me what a Gunwagon is?

Because its not sold on forge world nor Games workshop (at least i cant find it).

I can find a Battlewagon with a supa Kannon (which in my humble opinion, would sound like a gun wagon) but its still classified as a battlewagon on wahapedia.

So what exactly is a gunwagon and where is the model? Is it just a battlewagon that only has a kannon equipped and nothing else?

Also what is a "Bonebreaka" model when all other battlewagons can also take the Deff Rolla (and deff Rolla models are called bonebreakas?)??

I own none of these battlewagon models, and im super confused as to how they work and are classified.

What if i use a battlewagon with a kannon and a Deff Rolla, am i using the Bonebreaka or the Gunwagon?

Do you have the Ork codex? It's unclear since it seems you don't have a lot of the basic information that should be evident in the book.

Basically the battlewagon model has 3 distinct datasheets for it. The basic one is the one where you can basically take whatever you want on it, with no special rules or pre-built equipment. The bonebreaka, however, is another distinct datasheet where it comes base with the deffrolla and ard case (you CAN'T opt out of it) and also is more expensive baseline in terms of points. Furthermore, it has a special rule unique to its datasheet that gives it the extra D6 attacks on the charge.

Similarly, the Gunwagon comes base with a kannon and ard case. It uniquely has the periscope equipment/special rule that lets them shoot their main gun twice if they move under half-movement.

Basically, the reason why GW split them into 3 different datasheets despite having the same base model is so you can have a battlewagon centric army without having to deal with the rule of 3. It's also a way for them to specialize them into shooting/close combat roles while making sure you pay for the difference.

I have the codex but its not exactly that easy to decipher these things.

For starter the codex i have, from 8th edition does not state that the Bonebreaka datasheet comes with Ard' case? it comes with Explodes, Bonebreaka Ram, and Mobile Fortress.

Furthermore the Gunwagon also doesnt state that it comes with Ard' Case on my codex.

The only version of the battlewagon i can see that comes with Ard case is.. well the actual battlewagon datasheet, and the Battlewagon with Supa-Kannon.

So i dont know what you mean that i can find this info in the codex. i sure cant find it when i look at my data sheets.

If I am to understand my own Codex, if i want to use the Gunwagon with a kill kannon and get the periscope, i do NOT have the opportunity to get Ard case, but if i wanna use the battlewagon datasheet with a kill kannon, then i CANT use the periscope ability, but i CAN use ard' case.

So in this case, i dont think its a "Basic question". you have 3 (4 with supa cannon, 5 with Lifta cannon) different datasheet versions of the same unit that can effectively use many of the same weapons and overlap in roles, so how that actually works and what you are legally allowed to do, is not a basic question either.

i feel like its a good question for newer people (like me) as it clarifies a few things.

The reason why I say that both the bonebreaka and the gunwagon have the ard case base even if its not explicitly stated is because both only have a transport capacity of 12 and lack open topped while being T8. All of which occurs for regular battlewagons only after you opt for the 'ard case. So you should remember that since ranged units will never be able to shoot out of a bonebreaka or gunwagon.

And I sort of understand the confusion regarding the different datasheets using one model, but it is a big part of 8th-9th edition unit trend that you see across several armies, particularly Space Marines, so you may want to look at how datasheets work in general and the core rules more thoroughly first.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

gungo wrote:
Regarding the meka dread killsaw
Just wait til next week when the forgeworld codex drops...
Also ghaz is on sale separately I can Finally stop using old ghaz model...

I think orks and guard are the 2 biggest benefactors from the forgeworld book maybe space
Marines but a lot of thier stuff is just lord of wars.

I just hope they give the mega dread T8 and more base attacks, or at least options similar to what the Gorkanaut/Morkanaut have. Even just making the Ramshackle Monstrosity rule be a super version of regular Ramshackle where it reduces damage to 1 on a 5+ would be better than what it is now.

Im sitting here thinking about buying a Meka Dread (sadly the Meka dread body is out of stock, and i like that more than the Mega dread body) and the only thing that stops me from wanting to buy it now is because you guys say the new forge world books comes out next week.

So ill wait with it.

But the model looks absolutely beastly. the Mega Charge ability looks pretty cool too, if combined with a deffkilla wartrike guy for turn 1 charge.

I wonder if you can reroll the Mega Charge if you roll a 1? Not sure, since i misplaced my core rules 2020 book in my friendly game store today.

Regardless, i will definitly get a Meka-Dread some day.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/10/25/sunday-preview-brothers-in-arms/

Preorder Friday for forgeworld book, Saturday for ghaz (i believe)

Generally leaks start coming out after preorder.. so we should find out some datasheets soon enough... to be fair this book really just is the krieg codex :p with some stuff for others...

gungo wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/10/25/sunday-preview-brothers-in-arms/

Preorder Friday for forgeworld book, Saturday for ghaz (i believe)

Generally leaks start coming out after preorder.. so we should find out some datasheets soon enough... to be fair this book really just is the krieg codex :p with some stuff for others...

Excited to see the Warboss on Bike datasheet.....

Maybe making KFF affect units not models would be a good step in helping boyz

Oh gak yeah that's a good point. Finally getting a look at the biker boss sheet. Will he have the warboss keyword for access to biggest boss?

cody.d. wrote:
Oh gak yeah that's a good point. Finally getting a look at the biker boss sheet. Will he have the warboss keyword for access to biggest boss?

I hope so, because otherwise he's going to be missing out on a lot of what he used to be able to do. I'm more concerned that he'll be stuck with a killsaw or some unique wargear like Deffkilla Wartrike and not be able to take the Killa Klaw.

 Bonde wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
I don't really see a reason to run four units of minimal troops. I would cut the fourth boyz unit and maybe the warbikers to have unit of MANz ride your forktress.

Good point, that would also give me more killing power and an additional obsec unit to capture contested objectives with. But does the Wartrike then have enough fast bodies to hide behind? I intended the bikers as extra wounds, but I guess it can also hide behind any other vehicles?

The bikes are not going to hide the trike though - a single casualty and there is no more Look out sir.

 Jidmah wrote:

 Bonde wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
I don't really see a reason to run four units of minimal troops. I would cut the fourth boyz unit and maybe the warbikers to have unit of MANz ride your forktress.

Good point, that would also give me more killing power and an additional obsec unit to capture contested objectives with. But does the Wartrike then have enough fast bodies to hide behind? I intended the bikers as extra wounds, but I guess it can also hide behind any other vehicles?

The bikes are not going to hide the trike though - a single casualty and there is no more Look out sir.

Oh you are right! I completely forgot the "3 models in a unit" part. Then they are indeed a waste of points in that list.

 Grimskul wrote:

cody.d. wrote:
Oh gak yeah that's a good point. Finally getting a look at the biker boss sheet. Will he have the warboss keyword for access to biggest boss?

I hope so, because otherwise he's going to be missing out on a lot of what he used to be able to do. I'm more concerned that he'll be stuck with a killsaw or some unique wargear like Deffkilla Wartrike and not be able to take the Killa Klaw.

Even if he can't take the klaw, it's not that bad. Unlike in 8th, having your warlord die rarely - if ever - gives up VP, so giving him the Burtal, but kunnin' trait usually is equivalent to the killaklaw. The one thing I'm really worried about is him losing the Waaagh! for bikers again.

Next week pre order = full rules to see in +4 or +6 weeks? The leaks before will be very misleading as usually..... But anyway - this is a great news.

I have this idea for secondary I haven´t tested, but wanted to theorize around and develop. It´s based on Warpcraft - Psychic Ritual.

Psychic Ritual says "One Psyker Character unit from your army can attempt to perform this psychic action in your Psychic phase if it is within 6" of the centre of the battlefield."

If you manage this 3 times during a battle it´s 15 VP.

So, we need to get the ritual started T1 to maximize chances of getting 3 through during the battle. The good news is that it happens during our turn, meaning we have control over moving a Weirdboy to the right spot.

My current solution to this is twofold:

A Patrol with a Blood Axe Weirdboy who Dead Sneaky's to the centre. That´s the T1 ritual.

Next part is another Weirdboy riding with a 'Ard case Forktress BW filled with Warboss+Painboy+MANZ+Boyz. Alongside them goes a Deffkilla Trike and Nobz Bikes to deliver the 2nd Weirdboy for T2 and 3 ritual

The major point is that the ritual actions aren´t any real overhead to the normal strategy as I would advance to grab objectives in the midfield anyway. But if the opponent doesn´t want Orks to get 15 VP they have to commit to killing a lowly 75 point char whilst the area is flooded with Ork melee specialists with much higher threat level. Cost is 2CP and 150 points for a possible 15VP which neither is devastating if it fails.

The counter to the T1 BA Weirdboy is that we are going second and the opponent manages to flood the centre with units, but we can see that before committing and it´s a doubtful tactical move by them. I assume that Weirdboy will go down asap and not contribute any more. Next the caravan of vehicles filled with Orks job is to create space, unload and protect the 2nd Weirdboy for ritual T2 and T3.

So, what are your thoughts? This is all theorizing as I wrote at first, but maybe there is something here.
---
I started planning this because I feel that we are 1 decent secondary short. Engage and Scramblers are almost default, but to often kill secondaries doesn´t work. In a nutshell GW has missed the mark yet another time by allowing durable and fewer number armies have an upside by not giving up VP. One could imagine that more expensive, but fewer units would disadvantage those armies on Primaries, yet that doesn´t seem correct due to the few number of objectives that needs to be covered. Hence we get these Bladeguard Vets + Eradicator lists etc..

Dead Sneaky can't be used T1, as any reserves.

In addition, as I understand it, the same psyker has to perform all three casts, meaning a well timed attack on your psyker leaves your with zero chance to gain any VP.

 Jidmah wrote:
Dead Sneaky can't be used T1, as any reserves.

Hmm, where does that say? Are you sure you are not mixing Reinforcements and Reserves?

CA p64 - Reinforcement

Some units have a rule that allows them to start the battle in location other than the Battlefield; units that use such rules are called Reinforcements...(goes on and says nothing about T1)

Dead Sneaky'

At the end of any of your Movement phases that unit can emerge from hiding – set it up anywhere on the battlefield that is more than 9" away from any enemy models.

CA Rulebook p80 - Strategic Reserves

Note that these rules do not apply to units that are using other rules that enable them to start on the battlefield. (Goes on and this prohibits T1)

FAQ on rulebook comes up empty on Reserves/Reinforcement for me too.

 Scactha wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Dead Sneaky can't be used T1, as any reserves.

Hmm, where does that say? Are you sure you are not mixing Reinforcements and Reserves?

CA p64 - Reinforcement

Some units have a rule that allows them to start the battle in location other than the Battlefield; units that use such rules are called Reinforcements...(goes on and says nothing about T1)

Dead Sneaky'

At the end of any of your Movement phases that unit can emerge from hiding – set it up anywhere on the battlefield that is more than 9" away from any enemy models.

You missed the start of Dead Sneaky:
"Select a blood axe infantry unit of 8PL or less and place it in hiding instead of placing it on the battlefield"
So the unit is starting off-battlefield, so is reserves, so no turn 1 dead sneaky.

With regard to the weirdboy needing to survive 3 turns of casting this (which is highly unlikely), the best protection I can think of for him is to make him the warlord, in a bad moons detachment, and give him the best armour teef can buy (warlord trait) for 4++ and the super cybork for a 5+++. Then surround him in grots and boys (the grots will cover him whilst preventing an excessive risk of perils). I would look to start him embarked in a vehicle, then disembark 3", move 5", advance D6". So an average movement of 11.5" forwards on turn 1 should get within 6" of the middle without issue. Then you have to keep him surrounded in covering bodies for 3 turns to perform the ritual. We have the advantage that he can't fail the ritual unless he perils, as long as there's 10 boys nearby, so give him some waves of grots and have your charge buffers over 10" from him to keep him in control!

i dont believe anything can teleport in on turn one

 some bloke wrote:
You missed the start of Dead Sneaky:
"Select a blood axe infantry unit of 8PL or less and place it in hiding instead of placing it on the battlefield"
So the unit is starting off-battlefield, so is reserves, so no turn 1 dead sneaky.

Why would that turn him into a Reserve? Rather the opposite as per Reinforcements p64 above (again): "units have a rule that allows them to start the battle in a location other than...". I.e. off board called "Hiding" in this case.

Do you mean that "Hiding" somehow translates into "not deploy(ed) at the start of battle" as per the Reserve rule? That´s a preamble. Strategic Reserves has nothing to do with various deployment options inherent to units. It´s just an option to deploy any unit by that particular rule. Like putting a Terminator Squad in Reserve instead in the T Chamber (which then is a Reinforcement). You could do it, but it´d be a waste.

Where does this difference between Reserve and Reinforcement come in and separates this case into the latter (or any other like e.g. the T chamber)? I´m confused

EDIT: I found Goonhammers comments on this too which alludes to my reasoning:

While Strategic Reserves units are set up during the Reinforcements step of the movement phase, other methods of deploying units as reinforcements still work as they did previously, and importantly you do not have to pay the Strategic Reserve cost for them. If a rules refers specifically to Strategic Reserves, then it also only applies to units being set up using this rule.

I hope they make Grot Tanks great again. 4d6 movement does not seem completely unreasonable when you factor in the average movement of a lot of vehicles.

 Elfric wrote:
I hope they make Grot Tanks great again. 4d6 movement does not seem completely unreasonable when you factor in the average movement of a lot of vehicles.

they need higher leadership. if you use 4 grot tanks, and one dies, leadership of 5 and 6 will result in a tank running off which is terrible. or a price reduction, or something else. More hp maybe. Not sure.

They at least need something done with the morale phase, because enemies picking the secondaries "Bring it down" will get easy points taking away 4 wound grot tanks.

Also i would really like to see the Grot Mega tank in action

FW Compendium table of contents is on Warhammer Community.
Chinork Warkopta, as many expected, is dead. A bit surprised the Mega and Meka dreads survived, as well as the Killtank.

"Select a blood axe infantry unit of 8PL or less and place it in hiding instead of placing it on the battlefield"

 Scactha wrote:
Do you mean that "Hiding" somehow translates into "not deploy(ed) at the start of battle" as per the Reserve rule?

Color for emphasis. Hiding is not on the battlefield and therefore hiding bloodaxes are "Reinforcements" as per the rules. Both matched play mission rules disallow bringing in reinforcements in turn one as per the last paragraph of "Declare Reserves and Transports" step.

im really confused that theres a Nob on Bike entry in the new FW book apparently.

The heck for? Different weapons? Some snazzy special rule options? Different statline since their bikes are bigger than "standard" bikes? (doubt that last one they'd just name them something else)

 Jidmah wrote:

"Select a blood axe infantry unit of 8PL or less and place it in hiding instead of placing it on the battlefield"

 Scactha wrote:
Do you mean that "Hiding" somehow translates into "not deploy(ed) at the start of battle" as per the Reserve rule?

Color for emphasis. Hiding is not on the battlefield and therefore hiding bloodaxes are "Reinforcements" as per the rules. Both matched play mission rules disallow bringing in reinforcements in turn one as per the last paragraph of "Declare Reserves and Transports" step.

Ah, p6, now I got a reference. Thanks. Pity, trashing that idea!

There would still be a viability for bringing the bloodaxe psyker in for turn 2 onwards, bu then it has to be done by one single unit so that's unhelpful too.