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I think that all dreads are probably pretty good, with the possible exception of the redemptor. Even that has its uses as a static gunbot, or possibly in an iron hand list using the stratagem to move. It needs potms.

I'd still always go for the contemptor. It's tough like theironclad or venerable are, as it's got more wounds and an invulnerable. It's hard hitting in cc because, even though it only does 3 damage and not the chainfist's 4, its more accurate and stronger than the ironclad. It's fast too.

Where contemptors do suffer is their guns. The kheres/multimelta option is much worse than a twin lascannon. A kheres isn't awful, and it's pretty cheap. This results in a dread that you won't mind spending a lot of time in cc, where it belongs.

One option I'd be really interested to see would be a bunch of venerable dreads with lascannons and fists. It seems to me that they'd be pretty good all-rounders

I really like the idea of twin las and a fist but they’re nearly 200 points so start to get a bit expensive, and at that point I want something to be more specialized; mince in CC or stands still and shoot proficiently. One fist guarding a gunline isn’t a bad idea though.

Yeah, that may well be the way to go. I basically think the fist is likely to have more of an influence on the game than the missile launcher. It's about having the option of a counter attack if something threatens your gunline.

My chaplain dread has lascannons and a fist and he does well. Of course it helps that he also can't easily be shot at, thanks to being a character.

I've been running 3-4 dreads in my lists, two KAC/Fist Contemptors, a dual KAC Relic Contemptor and a shooty venerable with TL Lascannon and ML. They've been doing so well I'm building another venerable right now and probably going to buy another.

I wasn't impressed with the ironclad, but I honestly forgot about the hurricane bolter. That helps bring the price down significantly, I might have to proxy one in, but I'm still not sure it beats out a Contemptor.

Honestly I don't like the regular Contemptor because it lowers in movement as it takes damage. If you wanna talk about the Relic version, now you're...talking.

Mandragola wrote:
Yeah, that may well be the way to go. I basically think the fist is likely to have more of an influence on the game than the missile launcher. It's about having the option of a counter attack if something threatens your gunline.

My chaplain dread has lascannons and a fist and he does well. Of course it helps that he also can't easily be shot at, thanks to being a character.

The missile launcher is definitely underwhelming. Twin autocannon is a handsome alternative.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Honestly I don't like the regular Contemptor because it lowers in movement as it takes damage. If you wanna talk about the Relic version, now you're...talking.

Weird complaint. The contemptor is only slower than a normal dread after taking 8 wounds, when the normal dread would already be dead. Likewise it only becomes less good at hitting things when a normal dread would already be dead. And it has an invulnerable save so it takes wounds less quickly than a normal dread.

 Perth wrote:
I've been running 3-4 dreads in my lists, two KAC/Fist Contemptors, a dual KAC Relic Contemptor and a shooty venerable with TL Lascannon and ML. They've been doing so well I'm building another venerable right now and probably going to buy another.

I wasn't impressed with the ironclad, but I honestly forgot about the hurricane bolter. That helps bring the price down significantly, I might have to proxy one in, but I'm still not sure it beats out a Contemptor.

Remember that the dreadnought combat weapon is free for an ironclad. You only pay for the left arm chainfist/hammer - plus any storm bolters etc that are attached to either arm.

This means that a hurricane bolter probably isn't much of a cost saving. It's a good gun though, and very cheap.

Anyway, despite all of that, I still prefer the contemptor.

I haven't played with or against a contemptor yet, but from what I am reading in my codex I don't think either frame would be a bad addition to your army list.

If you grab the KAF you are looking at 165 points, which imo isn't too pricey considering what you are getting. I am drawn to the Ironclad for how flexible the load out options are.

That hurricane bolter can clear a lot of models in a hurry - which to me seems to be a real nice plus considering all the concern I have seen about screen units since I have joined, and it's only 4 points? Yes please.

I could actually swap that chainfist for the seismic hammer, and my point total is only 139. Thats giving me -4ap and 5 damage, but to be fair I would only be hitting effectively on 4's instead of 2s for your combat weapon. If I really wanted to push the envelope with CC (which I am thinking of a trial run soon since I play BT anyway) I could move to the Hammer and combat weapon, giving me wrecker so I can reroll 1's. I just picked up a Stormraven, so dropping that beast into the middle of the enemy? That loadout would run around 152 (SB on your combat arm, and HF on your hammer arm)

Now drop in an LT close by....

I will stop rambling now, but as I said... solid pick to consider.

Mandragola wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Honestly I don't like the regular Contemptor because it lowers in movement as it takes damage. If you wanna talk about the Relic version, now you're...talking.

Weird complaint. The contemptor is only slower than a normal dread after taking 8 wounds, when the normal dread would already be dead. Likewise it only becomes less good at hitting things when a normal dread would already be dead. And it has an invulnerable save so it takes wounds less quickly than a normal dread.

 Perth wrote:
I've been running 3-4 dreads in my lists, two KAC/Fist Contemptors, a dual KAC Relic Contemptor and a shooty venerable with TL Lascannon and ML. They've been doing so well I'm building another venerable right now and probably going to buy another.

I wasn't impressed with the ironclad, but I honestly forgot about the hurricane bolter. That helps bring the price down significantly, I might have to proxy one in, but I'm still not sure it beats out a Contemptor.

Remember that the dreadnought combat weapon is free for an ironclad. You only pay for the left arm chainfist/hammer - plus any storm bolters etc that are attached to either arm.

This means that a hurricane bolter probably isn't much of a cost saving. It's a good gun though, and very cheap.

Anyway, despite all of that, I still prefer the contemptor.

It isn't a strange complaint. If the opponent just wants to cripple it so it doesn't go anywhere, they well. The Relic also has those abilities as well but has a better damage chart to a unit that wants to go into melee.

Pretty sure the math adds up to the seismic hammer being a statistically worse choice than dreadnought chainfist about 99% of the time. 4 damage more reliably is more impressive to me than 5 less often.

BT are a dark horse. They're not Ultramarines, but too many people look at the CT and think they've got to play an assault army.

Meanwhile, Crusaders are one of the better troop options we have, the BT strat is strong when you only get 1 chance at certain key powers, and the relic more than doubles the effective area of a chapter master buff-one of the strongest buffs in the game. I look at the CT as just a way to help ensure mid-range charges (The kind that cost you the game when you fail them), rather than a way to bet on long range ones.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Mandragola wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Honestly I don't like the regular Contemptor because it lowers in movement as it takes damage. If you wanna talk about the Relic version, now you're...talking.

Weird complaint. The contemptor is only slower than a normal dread after taking 8 wounds, when the normal dread would already be dead. Likewise it only becomes less good at hitting things when a normal dread would already be dead. And it has an invulnerable save so it takes wounds less quickly than a normal dread.

 Perth wrote:
I've been running 3-4 dreads in my lists, two KAC/Fist Contemptors, a dual KAC Relic Contemptor and a shooty venerable with TL Lascannon and ML. They've been doing so well I'm building another venerable right now and probably going to buy another.

I wasn't impressed with the ironclad, but I honestly forgot about the hurricane bolter. That helps bring the price down significantly, I might have to proxy one in, but I'm still not sure it beats out a Contemptor.

Remember that the dreadnought combat weapon is free for an ironclad. You only pay for the left arm chainfist/hammer - plus any storm bolters etc that are attached to either arm.

This means that a hurricane bolter probably isn't much of a cost saving. It's a good gun though, and very cheap.

Anyway, despite all of that, I still prefer the contemptor.

It isn't a strange complaint. If the opponent just wants to cripple it so it doesn't go anywhere, they well. The Relic also has those abilities as well but has a better damage chart to a unit that wants to go into melee.

The relic is better, of course. And more expensive. I’m talking about the contemptor vs the ironclad. Their prices are comparable.

I’ve also found a contemptor’s better streng5h matters. S14 means wounding a lot of vehicles on a 2+.

But as I said earlier, all of the dread options are good. For me, the contemptor is the most efficient way of delivering those dreadnought combat weapon attacks to the faces of my enemies, where they belong. But st the guy Heat I met a guy with 6 (yes, 6) non-venerable riflemen dreads stood by Azrael and a lieutenant, and you could see what he was going for.

 Karthicus wrote:
I could move to the Hammer and combat weapon, giving me wrecker so I can reroll 1's.

I think double CC weapons on Ironclads for Wrecker is almost never worth it. One of my biggest uses for CP is for Wisdom of the Ancients to cover areas my Chapter Master can't so my dreads are almost always rerolling 1's anyways.

 Traceoftoxin wrote:
BT are a dark horse. They're not Ultramarines, but too many people look at the CT and think they've got to play an assault army.

Meanwhile, Crusaders are one of the better troop options we have, the BT strat is strong when you only get 1 chance at certain key powers, and the relic more than doubles the effective area of a chapter master buff-one of the strongest buffs in the game. I look at the CT as just a way to help ensure mid-range charges (The kind that cost you the game when you fail them), rather than a way to bet on long range ones.

It basically makes the army play aggressively. I'm always looking for rerolls on charges when I play most of my lists because of it. Not all of course (parking lot for DAYS) but yeah.

I agree with using the Stratagem to reroll over taking a second Combat Weapon on your Ironclad. I only run 2 Combat Weapons on my Hellforged Contemptors because of the underslung Soulburners. I play Raptors so it is pretty easy to justify trying out other Chapter Tactics using my models, but most often I use RG or CF. Pedro makes me happy, and so does Lias, but even just the RG strat and Chapter Tactic make my lists work well. I am planning on running both Salamanders and Black Templars soon though. BT were my favorite Chapter before (fluff reasons more than tabletop reasons) and when the new addition came out I told myself I was going to build an army of them. I may still do that but using my current models in the meantime and testing them out is looking great after reading some of the ideas for them on here.

 tpogs wrote:

 Karthicus wrote:
I could move to the Hammer and combat weapon, giving me wrecker so I can reroll 1's.

I think double CC weapons on Ironclads for Wrecker is almost never worth it. One of my biggest uses for CP is for Wisdom of the Ancients to cover areas my Chapter Master can't so my dreads are almost always rerolling 1's anyways.

Very good point. I recently picked up a Stormraven, so I was thinking about my options for getting right into CC as soon as it dropped onto the map. Thinking it over now, I believe you have a much more effective path using your dream like that. Good call.

Yeah if Wrecker offered another attack I would always think about a second melee weapon. As is, I'm getting that reroll elsewhere.

Plus I gotta load up on those Twin Heavy Bolters somehow. In order to get to charge Guard tanks I gotta clear the Conscripts.

Question: Do any of you equip your Predators with Hunter Killer Missiles to optimize Killshots?

I haven’t used killshot yet, but HK missile on it certainly makes sense.

Has anyone had good success with bikes? Are they best used as mobile melta guns and objective grabbers? Are scout bikes preferred?

I put HK missiles on everything. Makes a big difference for your alpha strike.

Has anyone noticed that the repulsor model comes with a HK missile, which it isn’t allowed to have? It’s mounted vertically, amongst the stowage boxes. You could easily miss it unless you put one together.

I played a game against Jes Bickham at the GT heat a couple of weeks ago. I mentioned this, and he said it was because the rules designers didn’t know about the HK. Apparently they got given an early version of the model to test, and the closed box for the HK just looked like another bit of stowage. Then when he saw the rules, Jes Goodwin was less than happy to see it left out.

He said it would be difficult to add the option now that the codex was published. I mentioned that they’d done exactly that for reiver sergeants and their swords. We’ll see if I was persuasive!

Jes was using quite a cool nurgle army. Mortarion, quite a lot of flamer drones and stuff. Really good game, and great to chat to a designer. Felt a bit bad to table him

Mandragola wrote:
Has anyone noticed that the repulsor model comes with a HK missile, which it isn’t allowed to have? It’s mounted vertically, amongst the stowage boxes. You could easily miss it unless you put one together.

I played a game against Jes Bickham at the GT heat a couple of weeks ago. I mentioned this, and he said it was because the rules designers didn’t know about the HK. Apparently they got given an early version of the model to test, and the closed box for the HK just looked like another bit of stowage. Then when he saw the rules, Jes Goodwin was less than happy to see it left out.

He said it would be difficult to add the option now that the codex was published. I mentioned that they’d done exactly that for reiver sergeants and their swords. We’ll see if I was persuasive!

Jes was using quite a cool nurgle army. Mortarion, quite a lot of flamer drones and stuff. Really good game, and great to chat to a designer. Felt a bit bad to table him

Well it also does come with a massive sized melta bomb that no one gets to use.

but yeah no Primarus marines gets a missile like that which is a bumber. probably a later release.

I'm pretty sure that's something other than a massive melta bomb, but yes, agreed. I think it would be cool if the reliquary thing was an option that did something too.

That said, it already takes half a spreadsheet to work out the points cost of a repulsor, so I'm not sure adding to the chaos would be sensible.

Good evening,

BA player here tired to get tabled. I accidentally found an interesting chapter, named blood ravens, which looks like BA but use the space marine codex. I wanted to try them out using the ravenguard chapter tactics: I guess scout and devastators and venerable dreddy are a must have to abuse their rule right? What else do I need to run a 2000 points list?

Cheers

Spado

Spado wrote:
Good evening,

BA player here tired to get tabled. I accidentally found an interesting chapter, named blood ravens, which looks like BA but use the space marine codex. I wanted to try them out using the ravenguard chapter tactics: I guess scout and devastators and venerable dreddy are a must have to abuse their rule right? What else do I need to run a 2000 points list?

Cheers

Spado

Depends what you want out of the list. Those are all solid choices for a list though.

Fluff wise you want Librarians though.

Depends what you want out of the list. Those are all solid choices for a list though.

Fluff wise you want Librarians though.

I really want to focus on a shooty list because right now I think that close combat isn't the way to go. I'm looking for some competitive advice because I want to win more matches xD.

Well, depending on exactly how competitive you want to be the answer you might hear most often is "bring Rowboat".

That said, there are generally two ways most Raven Guard lists work out. Either pure gunline, or gunline plus a sizable infiltrate bomb (with or without Lias)

Your gunline is backed up by a Captain (almost always upgraded to a CM) and a Lieutenant with the Storm of Fire Warlord trait, buffing as many strong shooting units as you can.

Gunlines generally come in two flavors, either Devastator based with the Relic Banner, or vehicle based with Dreadnoughts, Predators. Both styles typically run multiple twin Assault Cannon Razorbacks simply due to being so good.

If you want to run a bomb, you infiltrate/deep strike multiple close range threats using either Lias Issodon from FW or the RG stratagem. Even with this you usually see shooting units like grav devs, Sternguard or aggressors over assault units, as they're so easy to block with a screen.

Spado wrote:

Depends what you want out of the list. Those are all solid choices for a list though.

Fluff wise you want Librarians though.

I really want to focus on a shooty list because right now I think that close combat isn't the way to go. I'm looking for some competitive advice because I want to win more matches xD.

What are your current lists looking like? It’s against the popular opinion, but the space marine games I’ve won have used a lot of boots on the ground. Either a bunch of 5 man squads with heavy weapons, or intercession supported by hellblasters. Maybe it’s just because no one expects it. We also use a lot of terrain, which I’m not sure everyone does.

Troops are typically three minimum scout squads with free weapons and nothing else for blocking deep strike and grabbing objectives.

Stormravens and Stormtalons are also worth using if you like fliers.

Edit: I'll fix these posts and write more later.

Looks like no good showings for SM at the SoCal open. Everything kinda got ran over by chaos, AM etc.. Lots of smite and bodies. I think sheer weight of fire with a large screen is a must. Could just be one event syndrome with the bad showing or the meta is shifting.