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Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






Kan is ridiculously biased when it comes to the armies he plays.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Endless spell/faction terrain counts for reference since we're on the topic:

-24 armies
-5 have faction endless spells/invocations
-3 have faction terrain
-10 have both
-6 have neither

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/10 19:33:08


Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page

I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.

I try to view Warhammer as more of a toolbox with examples than fully complete games. 
   
Made in us
Is 'Eavy Metal Calling?





Affton, MO. USA

 Dysartes wrote:
I know it's a very minor thing, but the Fyreslayers and Idoneth should've been the other way round in the preview photo - as it is, both the new heroes are very carefully avoiding looking at each other...


Neither can stand looking at the others hair style...or lack thereof.

LOL, Theo your mind is an amazing place, never change.-camkierhi 9/19/13
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 Kanluwen wrote:
Sorry, but IDK need the kits more.

And bloody Endless Spells/Invocations.

Lol what?

These are the Fyreslayer models:

Naked dwarf.
Magmadroth.
Pizza oven.
Endless Spells

Those last two are me being generous.

They literally have more Heroes holding a staff than they do actual units. At least Ironjawz had a bit of visual diversity with the boars and the Brutes and the Heroes all looked different to one another.

I agree IDK should get Endless Spells and I'd not be opposed to them getting more models but no army in the entire game needs new kits than Fyreslayers.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/01/10 20:03:43


 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

I think that's one thing - Fyreslyers are very much one trope repeated for most of their army. Visually they lack diversity whilst Idoneth have a goodly amount for their small roster.


I would say Fyreslayers and Flesheaters are the worst off at present with AoS. Flesheaters its basically "buy the battlebox, and then just buy more of them" to the point GW had to give them a 9 dragon/terrorgast capable army subfaction because otherwise they'd have nothing to do with their over-abundance of them.

It's a shame that the fast second wave that Lumineth got wasn't something that GW repeated for many of the other smaller newer forces for AoS. Lumineth at launch were "lol what cow elves with hammers?" then their second wave helped solidify them and a big part of that was giving people choices and diversity and varied builds and new focal models. Now no one really jokes about cows and hammers because there's "roo-cavalry" and "fox archers" and more.


Ossiarchs are much the same, they are like Idoneth in a having a decent first wave, but then no big second wave to help solidify the fanbase.

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Gathering the Informations.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Kan is ridiculously biased when it comes to the armies he plays.

Yes, because I actually have a knowledge of the army. Crazy how that works innit?

Just like I know that while Cities of Sigmar don't have Endless Spells...they got a bonus to cast the Malign Sorcery spells. Just like I know that while Overlords didn't get ES, they get a Relic for one...and that their skyships got a scenery related rule called "Garrison".


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Overread wrote:
I think that's one thing - Fyreslyers are very much one trope repeated for most of their army. Visually they lack diversity whilst Idoneth have a goodly amount for their small roster.

Idoneth also have a vast misunderstanding of what they actually feature.

There's the eels, the shark "warmachine", the turtle "bigger warmachine", and the two different units of light "skirmishers".
Then there's the ridiculously niche hero units. Of which there's the King, the Mage, the Priest, the Accountant, the "Resurrects Namarti" guy, and then the Big Ol' Wavecape...
There's more heroes than units. Even counting straight-up profiles. 2 Eels, 1 Shark(with weapon options on the warscroll), Turtle, Reavers, and Thralls total out to 6.
King, Volturnos, Priest, Mage, Accountant, Namarti Guy, Wizard w/ Wavecape, Fighty Wavecape comes out to 8.

I would say Fyreslayers and Flesheaters are the worst off at present with AoS. Flesheaters its basically "buy the battlebox, and then just buy more of them" to the point GW had to give them a 9 dragon/terrorgast capable army subfaction because otherwise they'd have nothing to do with their over-abundance of them.

Flesh-Eaters, IMO, are in a better spot than Fyreslayers and Idoneth both. They showed what can be done with the ability to combine kit parts.

Both Fyreslayers and Idoneth could have been helped significantly with the simple addition of an extraneous profile for what their armies have as "standard bearers" in the units.

It's a shame that the fast second wave that Lumineth got wasn't something that GW repeated for many of the other smaller newer forces for AoS. Lumineth at launch were "lol what cow elves with hammers?" then their second wave helped solidify them and a big part of that was giving people choices and diversity and varied builds and new focal models. Now no one really jokes about cows and hammers because there's "roo-cavalry" and "fox archers" and more.

Lumineth "at launch" wasn't meant to be everything by all reliable accounts.

They were also better received at the second wave because people saw how effective the army was.

Ossiarchs are much the same, they are like Idoneth in a having a decent first wave, but then no big second wave to help solidify the fanbase.

Idoneth didn't need a "big second wave", because most people were too busy not shutting up about how OP eels were.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/01/10 20:55:19


 
   
Made in gb
Thermo-Optical Hac Tao





Gosport, UK

I mean both are limited rosters who could do with more variety. I’m not sure what the point of this argument is.
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

 ImAGeek wrote:
I mean both are limited rosters who could do with more variety. I’m not sure what the point of this argument is.



My army is worse off than your army

And

If anyone from GW design is reading this they must know who is worse off so they focus on them first ;0





But still even looking at Idoneth - they've got eels, sharks and a giant turtle. Fyreslayers have a Magmadroth. They didn't even get the awesome Magmadragon from Forgeworld (before GW/FW gutted the AoS range :( )

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Yeah, the Fyreslayers could really do with a cavalry unit of some sort. A bunch of fire-adjacent lizard types like smaller magmadroths. Or even literal baby magmadroths when they’re only cart horse sized rather than elephant sized.

"Three months? I'm going to go crazy …and I'm taking you with me!"
— Vala Mal Doran
 
   
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I'd also consider the Sky Dwarves as another faction in need of an expansion wave at some point.

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 Kanluwen wrote:
This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.

Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army... 
   
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Yeah let's set aside the 'who has it worse' argument.

Both armies are small and it's kind of a slap in the face that all they're likely going to get is this one box, a new leader, and their battletome to get them into 3rd edition, and then nothing until 4th edition.

Meanwhile, Stormcast and Lumineth will likely get a whole extra release over the next year or two.

We'll see how it all goes down, but I think Fyreslayers and Deepkin players are just going to have to sit back down and relax for another 3+ years.
   
Made in ca
Nihilistic Necron Lord




The best State-Texas

drbored wrote:
Yeah let's set aside the 'who has it worse' argument.

Both armies are small and it's kind of a slap in the face that all they're likely going to get is this one box, a new leader, and their battletome to get them into 3rd edition, and then nothing until 4th edition.

Meanwhile, Stormcast and Lumineth will likely get a whole extra release over the next year or two.

We'll see how it all goes down, but I think Fyreslayers and Deepkin players are just going to have to sit back down and relax for another 3+ years.


I actually think it's the opposite since they are releasing this boxset early. I think that means we may actually see some model releases to go with it. If there was nothing else except the battle tomes, I think they would have just released it alongside it like they usually do.

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Baltimore, Maryland

 Sasori wrote:
I think that means we may actually see some model releases to go with it.


I’m not holding out hope for any more FS stuff, personally. I’d definitely welcome more options, but I get the feeling that its going to be a year or thereabouts of “1 model and a new battletome” for AoS, for the most part.

And if they don’t give FS new models, I hope at least for a warscroll rewrite/refinement. When it comes down to it, I’ve always felt that Vulkite Beserkers were decent Battleline that alot of armies would love to have. The problem is, why take them when Hearthguard Bezerkers do the same job but much better with more utility? Also, its not likely but I’d like them to reduce the use of “Beserker” in the battletome by at least 50%.

"Sometimes the only victory possible is to keep your opponent from winning." - The Emperor, from The Outcast Dead.
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 Dysartes wrote:
Spoiler:

I'm amused that you think any of what you put there was actually working against my overall point, Kan - if anything, you've strengthened it. Also, the use of "Monster" was more of a colloquial one that a rules-based one - couldn't think of a better term for "two Elves and a trident launcher jump a shark" in the case of the Allopex, let alone "Elf on a Seahorse" or "Aspect of Big Cloak as a Centrepiece".

To reiterate - my point was that while both factions need more kits, Fyreslayers are more short-changed in that regard than the Elves. Which is hardly a shock, given Elf Privilege when it comes to gaming.

I'll relist the breakdowns, to make this need a bit clearer. I'll leave Gotrek out entirely, as apparently both factions can taken him.

Fyreslayers
4 infantry clampack characters
"Endless Spells" (not spells, as Dwarfs, but you know what I mean)
Terrain piece
Underworlds warband (now available without Underworlds cards)
Infantry Kit A - Vulkite Berserkers - makes one unit, with weapon options
Infantry Kit B - Hearthguard Berserkers - also makes Auric Hearthguard
Monster Kit A - Magmadroth - Comes with options to make three different CHARACTER on Magmadroth units, and parts can make build two characters on foot as well (going by comments in this thread, and if the right mounted option is used?)

Idoneth
4 infantry clampack characters
Terrain piece
Underworlds warband (still available with Underworlds cards)
Infantry Kit A - Namarti Thralls - makes one unit, with some weapon options, though I don't know if that's just cosmetic
Infantry Kit B - Namarti Reavers - makes one unit, with some (cosmetic?) weapon options
Cavalry Kit A - Akhelian Ishlaen Guard - kit can alternatively build Morrsarr Guard (two units, one box)
Monster Kit A - Akhelian Allopex
Monster Kit B - Akhelian Leviadon
Monster Kit C - Eidolon - Makes two different Aspects
Monster Kit D - Akhelian King - Also includes a special character build

Both factions pick up one new clampack infantry character from the battle box, so that's a score draw.

This would seem to - thanks to the Magmadroth kit - leave the Fyreslayers up a couple of infantry character options, but they're behind everywhere else, especially in terms of number of different kits available.

You might play Idoneth, I don't know - but in terms of "need", it should be clear from the above who is in greater "need" of additional kits.

They do both need more kits before several other factions should get additional release slots, though.

Yeah it's very clear that Deepkin has a more extensive range at this point, can't actually be refuted and it would be very foolish or at least incredibly disingenuous to try.
   
Made in fi
5th God of Chaos (O'rly?)





 nels1031 wrote:
 Sasori wrote:
I think that means we may actually see some model releases to go with it.


I’m not holding out hope for any more FS stuff, personally. I’d definitely welcome more options, but I get the feeling that its going to be a year or thereabouts of “1 model and a new battletome” for AoS, for the most part.

And if they don’t give FS new models, I hope at least for a warscroll rewrite/refinement. When it comes down to it, I’ve always felt that Vulkite Beserkers were decent Battleline that alot of armies would love to have. The problem is, why take them when Hearthguard Bezerkers do the same job but much better with more utility? Also, its not likely but I’d like them to reduce the use of “Beserker” in the battletome by at least 50%.


Changes quaranteed. One thing i'm pretty sure is going is no more always strike first ca.

2022 painted/bought: 227/322 
   
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I do hope both battletomes get some good rules, but I'm not holding out hope for any new models other than the two leaders we see in their box set.

They release the box set before the Codex because they want people to buy the box set irrespective of how good the models are supposed to be, then they release the codex, revealing that the contents of the box are 'meh' at best for what they do.
   
Made in fi
5th God of Chaos (O'rly?)





Seeing how much of those is stuff that didn't sell...odds are reverse.

If these arent' good then what's good is what already was selling and thus new book release won't generate much of sales unless they get lots of try-hard's jumping to them because already best stuff is now OP. That's hard to do so odds are rather they make what was previously not good to be good next. The whole point of new book is to make people buy models. GW would fail utterly if what's good is what was previously good and it's not so super-OP all the try-hard's jump to them.

2022 painted/bought: 227/322 
   
Made in at
Discriminating Warrior





Austria

you assume that GW understand their own game good enough to avoid such mistakes of pushing previous good stuff while making already bad stuff worse (and by other examples out there we know they do not)

Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise

M41 - Alternative Rules for Battles in the 41st Millennium (40k LRB Project) 
   
Made in us
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Gathering the Informations.

drbored wrote:
I do hope both battletomes get some good rules, but I'm not holding out hope for any new models other than the two leaders we see in their box set.

They release the box set before the Codex because they want people to buy the box set irrespective of how good the models are supposed to be, then they release the codex, revealing that the contents of the box are 'meh' at best for what they do.

You know it literally includes the rules for the contents of the box, right?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/11 14:19:01


 
   
Made in ca
Nihilistic Necron Lord




The best State-Texas

drbored wrote:
I do hope both battletomes get some good rules, but I'm not holding out hope for any new models other than the two leaders we see in their box set.

They release the box set before the Codex because they want people to buy the box set irrespective of how good the models are supposed to be, then they release the codex, revealing that the contents of the box are 'meh' at best for what they do.


Eh, but in the past when we have seen them release the Boxset ahead of time, the actually tomes followed with more models. A good example was Shadow and Pain, which had a large model line accompany the Hedonite box.

In all other cases that I can think of, if there were no addtional models the boxset just released with the tomes/dexes. The most recent example being Shadowthrone, which we know was supposed to come together.

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 Sasori wrote:
drbored wrote:
I do hope both battletomes get some good rules, but I'm not holding out hope for any new models other than the two leaders we see in their box set.

They release the box set before the Codex because they want people to buy the box set irrespective of how good the models are supposed to be, then they release the codex, revealing that the contents of the box are 'meh' at best for what they do.


Eh, but in the past when we have seen them release the Boxset ahead of time, the actually tomes followed with more models. A good example was Shadow and Pain, which had a large model line accompany the Hedonite box.

In all other cases that I can think of, if there were no addtional models the boxset just released with the tomes/dexes. The most recent example being Shadowthrone, which we know was supposed to come together.


In fact, many of the AoS VS boxes saw nothing more for the army. Dorfs/Tzeentch, Skaven/Ghouls... they were just vehicles for the new character models.
Shadow & Pain was an exception (but only for Slaanesh)- the stars just happened to align.

Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
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Gathering the Informations.



Auric Flamekeeper article up.

Yesterday was this chap:


Thrallmaster article


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Voss wrote:

In fact, many of the AoS VS boxes saw nothing more for the army. Dorfs/Tzeentch, Skaven/Ghouls... they were just vehicles for the new character models.
Shadow & Pain was an exception (but only for Slaanesh)- the stars just happened to align.

Shadow & Pain, Blight War, Looncurse, and Feast of Bones all followed that pattern.

You're right that it is not always both sides that see a big chunk of releases though.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/01/13 16:19:25


 
   
Made in us
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The model really doesn't match any of the art which is a shame because the art looks so much better.

Its like they tried to match the model and failed.
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






Some potent support buffs there.

Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page

I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.

I try to view Warhammer as more of a toolbox with examples than fully complete games. 
   
Made in fi
5th God of Chaos (O'rly?)





 Kanluwen wrote:
drbored wrote:
I do hope both battletomes get some good rules, but I'm not holding out hope for any new models other than the two leaders we see in their box set.

They release the box set before the Codex because they want people to buy the box set irrespective of how good the models are supposed to be, then they release the codex, revealing that the contents of the box are 'meh' at best for what they do.

You know it literally includes the rules for the contents of the box, right?




Assuming rules stay same in battletome which isn't quaranteed. Though which way changes is also uncertain.

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Gathering the Informations.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Some potent support buffs there.

I'm willing to, so far, eat a little crow on the Thrallmaster. That's a really cool buff he's got going on.
   
Made in fi
5th God of Chaos (O'rly?)





Problem being having to take 10 wounds nearby to get 1. and casualties during combat phase helps only next turn.

Charge and dam buff good. Dam always solid and charge can be used on certain spots very well.

Let's see price

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 Kanluwen wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Some potent support buffs there.

I'm willing to, so far, eat a little crow on the Thrallmaster. That's a really cool buff he's got going on.

The thrallmaster is solid but the dorf is just… wut? Never mind the added bookkeeping for no reason, he gets to pick one unit to be buffed instead of every unit in range, he has to wait for another five guys to die before it can be done again, and if more than five guys die at once the extra charge from their noble sacrifice is lost.

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Beasts of Chaos are getting a Tome Celestial in White Dwarf 473 so the Battletome might be further off than first thought.
   
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Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

Wouldn't be the first, or even 10th time, that GW have ignored the Beastmen.

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 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Wouldn't be the first, or even 10th time, that GW have ignored the Beastmen.


Ignoring probably isn't the right word, since the tome celestial is, by definition, new attention on beasts with new rules.
   
 
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