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Made in fr
Trazyn's Museum Curator





on the forum. Obviously

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
As a friend of mine just put it:

"Bolt Shotgun is stupid. Gyrojet does not work like that. Either it is a regular shotgun yeeting out packed shot, or it is just a regular gyrojet slug in which case it is just a bolter."

It also has a cylinder and a pump-action. That... why would you ever do that?



Presumably when you pump it it rotates the cylinder.
Which...works I guess, but it's not what I would call practical and seems needlessly complex. Which for a race of supposed advanced not-Dwarfs that does everything better than the Imperium in terms of engineering doesn't seem right.

Also, why is it Volkanite and not Volkite? Did GW think that volkite not good enough (even though the Imperium lost how to produce them), so they felt that they had to make volkite +1?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/05/21 00:11:38


What I have
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Peace through power!

A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble

 
   
Made in au
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Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Presumably when you pump it it rotates the cylinder.
But why wouldn't your cylinder-based gun be double-action... and... uhh! It's frustrating seeing people who know nothing about guns design guns. I'm far from an expert, but even I know that that's stupid.

Ultimately I think they chose "Bolt Shotgun" just because it sounds cool, not thinking that the benefits of a shotgun aren't benefits in the world of bolt guns ('cause they already do the customised and specialist ammunition types) and because they wanted a 'pump action' gun, which is cool, even if the method is supremely outdated even today, to the point where it's not something that's really necessary (and certainly is becoming less and less common in military circles).

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Which...works I guess, but it's not what I would call practical and seems needlessly complex. Which for a race of supposed advanced not-Dwarfs that does everything better than the Imperium in terms of engineering doesn't seem right.
Exactly! Yes, you could make a pump action that turns a cylinder to the next chamber. I can't think of a reason why you ever would, especially given the purpose of a pump action is to push rounds down an internal magazine, which would, in theory, hold more than a cylinder and eject the casing of the previous round. More importantly, a you can not pump a shotgun and load a shell manually, thereby allowing you to slot a specific type of specialist round in, something a cylinder-based weapon would make difficult, if not impossible.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Also, why is it Volkanite and not Volkite? Did GW think that volkite not good enough (even though the Imperium lost how to produce them), so they felt that they had to make volkite +1?
Why did Necromunda Enforcers suddenly become "Palanite" Enforcers?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/05/21 00:24:04


Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in fr
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on the forum. Obviously

Actually most internal magazines in pump action shotguns tend to be pretty low capacity.
On average it's about 4 shells I think?
There are exceptions though. The Spas 12 can have 8 iirc.

Shotguns with revolver cylinders aren't all that outlandish either; the Russian MTs255 is a hunting shotgun that has a 5 round cylinder. However, it is not pump action.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/05/21 00:37:02


What I have
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Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

I know they can exist, and I know it's technically possible, I just don't see why.

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Made in us
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There's at least one example of a pseudo-bolter shotgun. The redemption, from space hulk deathwing. Basic gist is that after exiting the barrel, the bolt rounds explode soon after leaving the barrel rather than once they penetrate/hit a target. Kind of like an airburst frag grenade, I suppose. But shaped forward.

Also the fragments ricochet. Video games. Also I wonder if the Volkanite implies that actual volkite was the equivalent of phosphor to phosphex.
   
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 H.B.M.C. wrote:


It also has a cylinder and a pump-action. That... why would you ever do that?




Because it's cool.
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut





 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Actually most internal magazines in pump action shotguns tend to be pretty low capacity.
On average it's about 4 shells I think?
There are exceptions though. The Spas 12 can have 8 iirc.

Actually, Kel-Tec KSG can hold up to 25 rounds, plus ability to load two different round types and switch them on the fly. Very compact DP-12 can hold 16, and that thing is tiny. Seeing shotguns with magazines only hold 5-10 rounds, internal magazine can very much be better choice unless you plan to have extended firefight.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
It also has a cylinder and a pump-action. That... why would you ever do that?

Assuming it's really a pump action and not just people jumping to conclusions about standard bolter front grip, you could use the tube to top up your cylinder. Just pump in new bolt into empty chamber, done. You could even have two tubes alongside and choose which one to use, letting you use multiple kinds of ammunition. Doubly so with cylinder automatically rotating to whatever you need. Something standard bolters very much can't do (yes, DW ones somehow magically teleport right bolt from magazine but if anything, it's DW not squat gear that is unrealistic, and DW bolters are massive while this thing is pretty compact and far more durable).

Now, why you would want a cylinder? Besides the above mentioned ability to switch ammo types on the fly, cylinders have much bigger thermal mass than a automatic rifle chamber, meaning it takes more shots to warm them up (and it cools easier). Something rather important with caseless (or semi-cased, depending on bolt depictions) ammunition - you don't want it to cook off. It's possible you can fire hotter ammunition than any SM bolter is capable of for longer. Especially if it has some sort of recoil compensation. You also can't jam a revolver and can use much bigger range of ammunition, as with cylinders, only diameter matters, not the length, while self loading rifles can be pretty picky and even 1 mm too short or too long bolt can get stuck or misfire.

Now, the downside would be a harder reload, but speedloaders for both cylinders and tube mags exist, and that's assuming they don't have something automatically reloading it for them (see the Rogue Trader lady mini, even Imperium has that tech so squats surely have it too).

 Flinty wrote:
Scout and Deathwatch shotguns don;t fire bolts though, do they? They have a range of other specialist ammo, but are specifically not firing bolts.

No, it's the other way around, DW bolt ammunition is based on real life specialist shotgun shells. So is their new shotgun ammo (the types added to 7th edition Deathwatch book were funnily enough based on stuff developed for Iraq war, which is why they were not in any of earlier DW rules). So, yeah, in a way GW just went full circle with this if squat bolt SGs can now use what originally was shotgun concept to begin with
   
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Northumberland

Does it say anywhere that it is a pump action shotgun?

I assumed it's the same weapon as the pioneer on the trike model and that just has a thick moulded grip. It's even screwed in place.



That's not a slide.


EDIT:



Same grip as that in fact.

I don't care either way, I like the idea of a revolving pump action shotgun. It's weird and a little different. It says 'archaic' which you want from a human/dwarf race that diverted.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/05/21 01:58:12


One and a half feet in the hobby


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I've been wondering whether GW are going all Norse on the Leagues of Votann linguistically to try and illustrate how they are branched off from the rest of humanity.

Remember, that in 40K, they don't really speak English. The common lingua franca of the Imperium is Low Gothic, which is rendered for the reader as English, while the older High Gothic is faux Latin to show their linguistic relationship. The use of Old Norse for the Leagues may be intended to show how distant they are. Even their ancestors' language is separate and distinct from the ancient Latin-related (High Gothic) languages.
   
Made in gb
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@Olthannon - the shotgun grip is aesthetically similar to the Bolter grip you showed, but it also has a specifically modelled groove in front and behind it implying it’s a slide that bolters don’t have.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/21 06:04:13


Please excuse any spelling errors. I use a tablet frequently and software keyboards are a pain!

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 Togusa wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:


It also has a cylinder and a pump-action. That... why would you ever do that?




Because it's cool.


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 Zed wrote:
*All statements reflect my opinion at this moment. if some sort of pretty new model gets released (or if I change my mind at random) I reserve the right to jump on any bandwagon at will.
 
   
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Bolt shotgun?!

Yes, please. Looking forward to adding that to RPG use too!
   
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 H.B.M.C. wrote:
As a friend of mine just put it:

"Bolt Shotgun is stupid. Gyrojet does not work like that. Either it is a regular shotgun yeeting out packed shot, or it is just a regular gyrojet slug in which case it is just a bolter."

It also has a cylinder and a pump-action. That... why would you ever do that?


Dunno man... ask the russians xD




(joking, but hey, revolver shotgun!)

Only way I could see it is as a pump action pepperbox style:

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/05/21 07:27:18


 
   
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 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
 Geifer wrote:


I hope the new Squats ride donkeys and wear funny hats. Nothing says prospector like riding a donkey while wearing a funny hat.

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You're my new hero.

 cole1114 wrote:
There's at least one example of a pseudo-bolter shotgun. The redemption, from space hulk deathwing. Basic gist is that after exiting the barrel, the bolt rounds explode soon after leaving the barrel rather than once they penetrate/hit a target. Kind of like an airburst frag grenade, I suppose. But shaped forward.

Also the fragments ricochet. Video games. Also I wonder if the Volkanite implies that actual volkite was the equivalent of phosphor to phosphex.


That's in the shell design, though, and therefore launcher agnostic. Which is one of the big things here. People saying GW doesn't understand guns are likely not wrong, but on top of that they don't even understand their own made up stuff. Overwhelmingly what makes a bolter work the way it does is in the shell. As long as the barrel is the right caliber it doesn't matter if the gun is a muzzleloader or breechloader or the latest in rotary design. Once the shell exits the barrel it does the same thing regardless of what fired it. Trying to sell fancy, outdated loading mechanisms on the gun as somehow superior to Imperial automatic design is completely backwards on a bolt weapon.

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on the forum. Obviously

 Irbis wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Actually most internal magazines in pump action shotguns tend to be pretty low capacity.
On average it's about 4 shells I think?
There are exceptions though. The Spas 12 can have 8 iirc.

Actually, Kel-Tec KSG can hold up to 25 rounds, plus ability to load two different round types and switch them on the fly. Very compact DP-12 can hold 16, and that thing is tiny. Seeing shotguns with magazines only hold 5-10 rounds, internal magazine can very much be better choice unless you plan to have extended firefight.

I see those types of shotguns are becoming more common then. Still don't have a cylinder though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Irbis wrote:

Assuming it's really a pump action and not just people jumping to conclusions about standard bolter front grip,

I considered it could just be a grip, but there does appear to be a grove that would imply a slide.
It might just be detail though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Geifer wrote:
Trying to sell fancy, outdated loading mechanisms on the gun as somehow superior to Imperial automatic design is completely backwards on a bolt weapon.

To make matters worse, GW wrote an article talking about how the Votann actually know how to engineer, and as an example of this superior engineering they reveal a gun that no gunsmith would make. Why would they make a pump action revolver when they know how to make double action revolvers?

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2022/05/21 08:28:47


What I have
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Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!

A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble

 
   
Made in gb
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Gosport, UK

 Olthannon wrote:
Does it say anywhere that it is a pump action shotgun?

I assumed it's the same weapon as the pioneer on the trike model and that just has a thick moulded grip. It's even screwed in place.

Spoiler:


That's not a slide.


EDIT:

Spoiler:


Same grip as that in fact.

I don't care either way, I like the idea of a revolving pump action shotgun. It's weird and a little different. It says 'archaic' which you want from a human/dwarf race that diverted.



I really don’t care about gun design apart from ‘does it look cool’ so I don’t have a dog in this fight, but you can see the slide on the shotgun.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/21 08:29:26


 
   
Made in au
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Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

 Geifer wrote:
That's in the shell design, though, and therefore launcher agnostic. Which is one of the big things here. People saying GW doesn't understand guns are likely not wrong, but on top of that they don't even understand their own made up stuff. Overwhelmingly what makes a bolter work the way it does is in the shell. As long as the barrel is the right caliber it doesn't matter if the gun is a muzzleloader or breechloader or the latest in rotary design. Once the shell exits the barrel it does the same thing regardless of what fired it. Trying to sell fancy, outdated loading mechanisms on the gun as somehow superior to Imperial automatic design is completely backwards on a bolt weapon.
I think that's really the main issue here.

If you want to make a pump-action revolver shotgun that fires self-propelled mini-missiles because it's "cool", then more power to you. But don't also tout the people building such a weapon as being so much more advanced than the people currently using the semi-/fully-automatic magazine-fed versions of the same gun. It'd be like saying that their Las-weaponry is leagues (of Votann) better than the Imperium, yet all their Las-weaponry has a manual hand-crank to charge it between shots.

Then again this is GW, that has modelled bolt weaponry with a rail system for ages, yet mount accessories anywhere but the rail.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2022/05/21 08:52:59


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Northumberland

Flinty wrote:@Olthannon - the shotgun grip is aesthetically similar to the Bolter grip you showed, but it also has a specifically modelled groove in front and behind it implying it’s a slide that bolters don’t have.


ImAGeek wrote:

I really don’t care about gun design apart from ‘does it look cool’ so I don’t have a dog in this fight, but you can see the slide on the shotgun.


Fair enough if so. But why is it screwed on to the barrel if it's meant to slide?

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on the forum. Obviously

 Olthannon wrote:


Fair enough if so. But why is it screwed on to the barrel if it's meant to slide?

I did notice that and thought it was peculiar too. Looking at various models of pump action shotguns, there does appear to be lack of rivets/screws on the pump mechanism.
So either it's just a grip, or GW really doesn't know how a pump is supposed to work. I guess we'll have to wait for a more detailed description of it.

What I have
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Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

Assumption being that it's screwed onto the receiver/barrel, which it does not appear to be.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/21 08:58:21


Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
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This is inane. If people cannot handle bolt shotguns or whatever because it is not plausibly optimal weapon design they should have just walked away from 40K decades ago and never look back. Basically nothing in this setting makes sense, it runs 95% on the rule of cool.

I'm so tired of all these absurd generated grievances regarding everything.


This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2022/05/21 12:11:30


   
Made in fr
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on the forum. Obviously

 Crimson wrote:
This is inane. If people cannot handle bolt shotguns or whatever because it is not plausibly optimal weapon design they should have just waked away from 40K decades ago and never loo back. Basically nothing in this setting makes sense, it runs 95% percent on the rule of cool.

I'm so tired of all these absurd generated grievances regarding everything.


Except they're selling the Votann as a faction that makes sense and knows how to actually build things.
We're not talking about Orks or IoM here.
Also, it's not that it's a bolt shotgun, it's that its a revolver PUMP ACTION shotgun. That's the real issue. If it were just a pump action shotgun or a revolver shotgun it would have been fine. The "pump" + "revolver" part is a little too much.

The only real issue I have with them using bolt weapons is that I consider it to be lazy writing, where instead of diverging properly they just have the same stuff as the Imperium, except with better stats.
If they wanted to go that route they should have introduced an evolution / variation of bolt weapon technology, that shows what it would have turned into had the Imperium not stagnated. I'm assuming that's meant to be the case with the "Volkanite" weapon, where its a derivation of old Volkite weapons.

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2022/05/21 11:22:47


What I have
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Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!

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Made in at
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Austria

H.B.M.C. wrote:Assumption being that it's screwed onto the receiver/barrel, which it does not appear to be.

there is a common theme for game designs here, this was also pointed out for FarCry 6, were most of the weapons got the equipment mounted on places were it would have been useless after the 1st shot with the actual mounting place being untouched for reasons
gun designers who have never seen a real life gun trying to make things up that looks cool
Crimson wrote:This is inane. If people cannot handle bolt shotguns or whatever because it is not plausibly optimal weapon design they should have just waked away from 40K decades ago and never loo back. Basically nothing in this setting makes sense, it runs 95% percent on the rule of cool.
I'm so tired of all these absurd generated grievances regarding everything.

And I am so tired of GW not even trying any more but making stupid stuff, asking a stupid amount of money for it and I have to believe into the immersion because they said so

The background is the only thing going for 40k at the moment, take it away and there is nothing worth buying any more

and now they are going advertise a new faction with superior technology, that is so much superior that even the most superior alien race until now learned from them how to buid guns
and this superiority is shown by using an already outdated gun design with state of the art ammunition, even a low level Necromunda gang member can have

I can totally dive into the background of the game because it is so well written that it makes up for all the bad things going on

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Northumberland

Except though that 40k isn't anything to do with real life. It's not about how we see technology and how something should work but more what a weapon represents and the artistry of the model. You're looking at a bolt revolver shotgun. It says it's an F off big gun. It says it's archaic. And that in 40k reverso world means more technologically adept. That's what you have to remember. In 40k if a gun looks older it's better. That's why it's a revolver. It's got absolutely nothing to do with how a gun is supposed to function.

@crimson is right there's zero point getting your collective knickers in a twist about stuff like gun design because none of it makes sense. And also why should it? At what point has 40k ever even hinted that it's grounded in reality?

I mean at some point you have to accept that because it's one of the core concepts of the 40k setting or doom your life to writing out comments about how GW is dumb because they haven't made a gun look the way you want it to because that is more real life.


EDIT: PS I'm not saying you're wrong in any way for wanting the guns to look and function like real guns. It's just that's never been a thing in 40k that they really ascribe to. It's not the point of a model. It's more of an aesthetic representation.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/21 11:03:21


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on the forum. Obviously

I'm just saying, a pump action revolver shotgun would look more at home in an Ork army.
Especially if its doubled barreled. With bayonets.
Oh, and it also doubles as a grenade


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Olthannon wrote:
It says it's archaic. And that in 40k reverso world means more technologically adept.

I was not aware that Necrons use arquebuses, Eldar use flintlocks and Tau use lever guns.
Oh, and the Van Saar? Practically wearing loincloths.

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2022/05/21 11:53:01


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Northumberland

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
I'm just saying, a pump action revolver shotgun would look more at home in an Ork army.
Especially if its doubled barreled. With bayonets.
Oh, and it also doubles as a grenade


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Olthannon wrote:
It says it's archaic. And that in 40k reverso world means more technologically adept.

I was not aware that Necrons use arquebuses, Eldar use flintlocks and Tau use lever guns.
Oh, and the Van Saar? Practically wearing loincloths.


Specifically for an Imperial setting. Necromunda doesn't count because its 80s pulp.

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on the forum. Obviously

 Olthannon wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
I'm just saying, a pump action revolver shotgun would look more at home in an Ork army.
Especially if its doubled barreled. With bayonets.
Oh, and it also doubles as a grenade


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Olthannon wrote:
It says it's archaic. And that in 40k reverso world means more technologically adept.

I was not aware that Necrons use arquebuses, Eldar use flintlocks and Tau use lever guns.
Oh, and the Van Saar? Practically wearing loincloths.


Specifically for an Imperial setting. Necromunda doesn't count because its 80s pulp.

Necromunda is still set in the Imperium, no? So design wise it should still follow.
Especially when Van Saar is specifically said to use tech from the DoAT, unless I'm mistaken about their fluff?
Also, Volkite and grav weaponry doesn't look particularly low tech.


This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/05/21 13:05:28


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Northumberland

Right but Necromunda has a very specific 80s pulp art style that is recognisably different from the rest of 40k. And that's my point. None of it is about whether the guns work as they should it's about their look and that it gives an immediate recognisable motif to the carriers of the weapons. Van Saar kit is noticeably at odds to the wider Imperium. You see it and you immediately understand that it isn't normal and is associated with that group.

I'm not saying low tech either, I'm saying archaic. Archaic weaponry can still be advanced, either through craft or the skill in creating the object.

A trebuchet is archaic but it's not low tech.


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I disagree… it is a combination of two very simply mechanisms and has a terrible range.

Please excuse any spelling errors. I use a tablet frequently and software keyboards are a pain!

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 Olthannon wrote:
Necromunda doesn't count because its 80s pulp.
Necromunda also has a tremendous lack of real Scotsmen.

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