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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/12/14 19:53:53
Subject: Warboss with nobs. No FNP for the big guy?
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Confessor Of Sins
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Hymirl wrote:I don't understand how you've got to 6 pages, there is clearly no debate here.
ICs are considered part of units they join.
The painboy abilty effects all models in their unit.
Therefore the IC is in that area of effect and gains FNP.
Just like Doc Grotsnik joining another unit (or even just another IC) and granting them feel no pain. They're all one unit therefore all within the area of effect of the doc's tools.
I think too many people seem to have got confused with different situations where its an innate abilty. If it where a rule attached to the models (like plague marines) then it would not be passed on. But thats not the case here.
"When an independent character joins a unit, it might have different special rules from those of the unit. Unless specific in the rule itself (as in the "stubborn" special rule), the unit's special rules are not conferred upon the character, and the character's special rules are not conferred upon the unit. In some cases though, the independent character or the unit may lose their special rules as a result of the character joining a unit. For example, if an independent character without the 'infiltrate' special rule joins a unit of infiltrators during deployment, the unit cannot infiltrate."
This rule makes no difference between an innate and given ability. A chaos Icon grants the unit an ability also, ICs that join that unit do not benefit.
There is No debate on whether the IC is part of the unit or not. Yes they become part of the unit, but this rule qouted above for you dictates how they interact with the rules of the unit after they join the unit. Yes the Unit is granted FNP. But the joined IC is Still an IC and needs to abide by the IC rules above.
There is NO distinction in the rules that say "because its wargear we can ignore this rule." Unless you can give us the page that says this.
I know it worked differently in 4th ed. But we are playing 5th ed and need to play by 5th ed rules for ICs.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2008/12/14 20:07:53
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/12/14 20:19:48
Subject: Warboss with nobs. No FNP for the big guy?
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Hooded Inquisitorial Interrogator
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frgsinwntr wrote:"When an independent character joins a unit, it might have different special rules from those of the unit. Unless specific in the rule itself (as in the "stubborn" special rule), the unit's special rules are not conferred upon the character, and the character's special rules are not conferred upon the unit. In some cases though, the independent character or the unit may lose their special rules as a result of the character joining a unit. For example, if an independent character without the 'infiltrate' special rule joins a unit of infiltrators during deployment, the unit cannot infiltrate."
Feel no pain is not a unit special rule. Therefore the fact that unit speical rules are not confered to ICs has nothing to do with the situation. Had you read my post before cut and pasting an inaccurate and irrelvent responce you would have noticed that difference.
Innate and given abilities? I'm sorry, are these defined in the rules or is it a distinction you have made up?
A chaos Icon grants the unit an ability also, ICs that join that unit do not benefit.
And the reason for that is that chaos icons specificly mention that ICs do not gain the benefit. That is why they don't, thats why its different from painboys. So far you've shown nothing that contradicts any of the facts I've shown, you are wrong.
There is NO distinction in the rules that say "because its wargear we can ignore this rule." Unless you can give us the page that says this.
Ah yes, the old demand a negative trick. Nice attempt but flawed, the rules are permissive, this means instead of sitting around wanting to find the bit that says you don'tdo something (in this case a rule that says you don't follow the rule you previously quoted), you have to go and find the rule that says you can.
The fact is that the painboy's rule itself is all the exception you need, it provides an abilty to his unit, the warboss is part of his unit, its not difficult.
And thanks for reminding me that we're playing 5th edition, that was very helpful. Are you this rude to everyone who posts here or is it just me that you're suggesting hasn't read the rulebook?
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This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2008/12/14 20:40:42
If brute force doesn't work, you're not using enough... |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/12/14 22:24:56
Subject: Warboss with nobs. No FNP for the big guy?
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Dakka Veteran
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Hymirl wrote:I don't understand how you've got to 6 pages, there is clearly no debate here.
ICs are considered part of units they join.
The painboy abilty effects all models in their unit.
Therefore the IC is in that area of effect and gains FNP.
Just like Doc Grotsnik joining another unit (or even just another IC) and granting them feel no pain. They're all one unit therefore all within the area of effect of the doc's tools.
I think too many people seem to have got confused with different situations where its an innate abilty. If it where a rule attached to the models (like plague marines) then it would not be passed on. But thats not the case here.
QFT
That's what I've been saying all along brother, and that this is silly, especially since it has gone for this long.
OH THIS IS AWESOME * Did some research and found the *exact* same rule in the 4th ed codex word for word.
So, 4th ed has been around for about 4 years, all the tournaments, all the FAQs and GT FAQs, all the rule easter egg hunting, and this was NEVER brought up.
Check it out for yourself, dust off that old rule book, pg. 50 (edit: I have the little rule book, and pages are numbered differently, so it is under heading "Characters")second paragraph from the end.
This was the way it was done in 4th, and 5th is *important* no different, exact same rule word-for-word.
Also, all that other stuff is also true, units are units, if a wargear/ability is applied to the unit, it is applied without exception unless specified in the rule itself (i.e. chaos icons). Simply put "for his unit" is for his unit and ICs are part of the unit.
/FIN trully
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2008/12/14 22:29:09
DA 3rd Co. w/duelwing 6000+ pts
Mostly tanks 2000+ pts
Ultras 3rd Co and 1st Co. 7000+ pts
Harald Deathwolf's Co. 7000+ pts
4000+ pts (Daemonhunters)
Kabal of the Hydra 5000+ pts
Skullrippa'z Freebootaz 6000+ pts
Plague Marine Force 2000+ pts
and not finished until I own some of every army
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/12/15 00:15:09
Subject: Warboss with nobs. No FNP for the big guy?
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Confessor Of Sins
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Hymirl wrote:
Ah yes, the old demand a negative trick. Nice attempt but flawed, the rules are permissive, this means instead of sitting around wanting to find the bit that says you don'tdo something (in this case a rule that says you don't follow the rule you previously quoted), you have to go and find the rule that says you can.
The fact is that the painboy's rule itself is all the exception you need, it provides an abilty to his unit, the warboss is part of his unit, its not difficult.
And thanks for reminding me that we're playing 5th edition, that was very helpful. Are you this rude to everyone who posts here or is it just me that you're suggesting hasn't read the rulebook?
Exactly, the rules are permissive. Show me where it says the IC joined to the UNit gets the ability. I have shown you where it says they DO NOT.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/12/15 00:15:51
Subject: Warboss with nobs. No FNP for the big guy?
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Confessor Of Sins
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Edited, Decided not to stoop to a low level
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2008/12/15 00:16:24
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/12/15 00:33:55
Subject: Warboss with nobs. No FNP for the big guy?
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Towering Hierophant Bio-Titan
UK
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padixon wrote:Hymirl wrote:I don't understand how you've got to 6 pages, there is clearly no debate here.
ICs are considered part of units they join.
The painboy abilty effects all models in their unit.
Therefore the IC is in that area of effect and gains FNP.
Just like Doc Grotsnik joining another unit (or even just another IC) and granting them feel no pain. They're all one unit therefore all within the area of effect of the doc's tools.
I think too many people seem to have got confused with different situations where its an innate abilty. If it where a rule attached to the models (like plague marines) then it would not be passed on. But thats not the case here.
QFT
That's what I've been saying all along brother, and that this is silly, especially since it has gone for this long.
OH THIS IS AWESOME * Did some research and found the *exact* same rule in the 4th ed codex word for word.
So, 4th ed has been around for about 4 years, all the tournaments, all the FAQs and GT FAQs, all the rule easter egg hunting, and this was NEVER brought up.
Check it out for yourself, dust off that old rule book, pg. 50 (edit: I have the little rule book, and pages are numbered differently, so it is under heading "Characters")second paragraph from the end.
This was the way it was done in 4th, and 5th is *important* no different, exact same rule word-for-word.
Also, all that other stuff is also true, units are units, if a wargear/ability is applied to the unit, it is applied without exception unless specified in the rule itself (i.e. chaos icons). Simply put "for his unit" is for his unit and ICs are part of the unit.
/FIN trully
QFT & QFT
Yes. weve all been making the same, correct, point all along - with different flavours, focoues & inflections.
@ frgsinwntr: No you HAVENT shown where IC dont get the rule.
Your reaaally havent. Your agruments about that point have been refuted (and pretty well if I do say so myself) and shown to be wrong.
Why are you using the same old arguements to counter all these replies.
It talks about the STUBBORN rule. Okay. Awesome. Cool. Refer to the GOD DAMNED ork codex AFTER reading the BGB. =
As per instructions in the BGB. Cant you do that frgsinwntr? Cant you read the rulebook? Read FNP in the BGB. Then read the heading which tells you to refer to the ork dex. Then read that rule in the ork dex.
That completely and utterly destroys your amazing point where you highlight in specail colours the referance to the stubborn rule.
Please people.. read the BGB (and related dexes where nessicary) in order when you want to check the rules.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2008/12/15 00:35:30
H.B.M.C. wrote:Friend of mine just sent me this:
"The Tyranid Codex, where I learned the truth about despair, as will you. There's a reason why this codex is the worst hell on earth... Hope. ." Too be fair.. it's all worked out quite well!
Heh. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/12/15 00:56:02
Subject: Warboss with nobs. No FNP for the big guy?
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Hooded Inquisitorial Interrogator
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frgsinwntr wrote:Exactly, the rules are permissive. Show me where it says the IC joined to the UNit gets the ability. I have shown you where it says they DO NOT.
No, you have not shown me where it says they do not. That is a lie, and it is rude to lie to people, please don't do that again.
You have shown me is a rule that applies to unit special rules, which is not applicable to this situation. This is because as I explained in response to your previous post (as well as my post before that) the doc's ability is not a unit special rule, its an ability that grants a special rule.
Just because you chose not to bother reading the ork codex to see that difference for yourself and instead attempt to define this abilty as a unit special rule which it is not is why you're insisting on claiming that the warboss doesn't get the abilty. All you're doing is simply repeating the same disproven argument again and again, do you seriously think that enough repitition will make something mysterious start to become true?
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If brute force doesn't work, you're not using enough... |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/12/15 00:57:18
Subject: Re:Warboss with nobs. No FNP for the big guy?
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Confessor Of Sins
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You've turned this into...
I am going to end now. I have made my point. You don't have the page numbers to back yourself up so your argument gets louder and nastier.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2008/12/15 01:04:56
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/12/15 01:02:10
Subject: Warboss with nobs. No FNP for the big guy?
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Towering Hierophant Bio-Titan
UK
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I approve of your use of funny pictures. I also approve of your backing down from the arguement.
You have made your point & its shown to be wrong. If you dont want to respond to that, thats understandable.
Thanks for calling an end to it.
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H.B.M.C. wrote:Friend of mine just sent me this:
"The Tyranid Codex, where I learned the truth about despair, as will you. There's a reason why this codex is the worst hell on earth... Hope. ." Too be fair.. it's all worked out quite well!
Heh. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/12/15 01:15:18
Subject: Re:Warboss with nobs. No FNP for the big guy?
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Hooded Inquisitorial Interrogator
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frgsinwntr wrote:I am going to end now. I have made my point. You don't have the page numbers to back yourself up so your argument gets louder and nastier.
I didn't bother providing page numbers as I'm sure they came up several times in this discussion but if you like I'll happly humour you.
Main rulebook, page 48,
(independant characters joining and leaving units) "They can join other independant characters though, to form a powerful multi character unit."
page 49,
(Shooting at independant characters) "...Independant characters that have joined a unit are considered part of that unit..."
(independant characters and assaults) "...the character assaults to, as it is part of that unit."
In all three quotes I clearly prove that the IC is considered just as much a member of the unit as the sarge, or heavy weapon trooper. Knowing that you don't like reading posts that don't have your name at the top I will now remind you that the quote you provided has nothing to do with the situation and because I'm a very nice and patient person I will re-explain why.
Ork codex, page 38
Doks tools special rule, "...to his unit"
Indicating the area of effect for the special rule 'doks tools' which confers all models within that area of effect, (being the painboy's unit) the special rule 'feel no pain.'
The IC is not gaining the special rule by joining a unit with feel no pain, as you pointed out that would be wrong. He is however gaining a special rule by joining a unit which has a model with 'Doks tools' in, and thats what grants him the special rule. Doks tools is where the codex overwrites the main rulebook.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2008/12/15 01:25:16
If brute force doesn't work, you're not using enough... |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/12/15 02:33:09
Subject: Warboss with nobs. No FNP for the big guy?
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Frenzied Juggernaut
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let it go already.
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qwekel wants to get bigger, please click on him and level him up.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/12/15 09:38:40
Subject: Re:Warboss with nobs. No FNP for the big guy?
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Sinister Chaos Marine
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Razerous wrote:lol waffles is just a term I use because its random (enough to be funny etc) and your waffle man reminded me of the saying..
What did I do? Get off my lawn!
Anyway, kudos on frgsinwntr for massive amounts of investigative research. He's made me believe that nob bikers with a joined ic are not all knowing and powerful, though the tenacity of the opposition is remarkable.
Also, this thread made my day hahah.
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Times banned from Heresy-Online: VI |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/12/15 14:09:31
Subject: Warboss with nobs. No FNP for the big guy?
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Widowmaker
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Can we find an exhaustive list of models this has relevance to? I've found so far:
Mad Dok Grotsnik + Unit (Dok's tools confer FNP to a joined unit?)
Painboy & Nobs + IC (Dok's tools confer FNP to the joined IC?)
Waaagh banner & Nobs + IC (Is +1 WS conferred to the IC?) **This may be different since it uses the 'Mob' term, but we usually use 'Mob' and 'Unit' interchangeably.
Weirdboy & Ere'we go + Unit (Is the joined unit teleported along with the weirdboy?)
Boss Snikrot & Kommandos + IC (Does ambush allow an IC to attach prior to the game and come onto the board from any table edge with the kommandos?)
Kor'sarro Khan + Unit (Master of the hunt confer Hit-n-run and furious charge to a joined unit?)
Shrike + Unit (See but remain unseen confer Infiltrate to the joined Unit?)
Librarian powers now reference the Librarian and 'the unit he is with'. I think we're logical enough people to understand this, but dakka surprises me at times.
Apothecary and Command squad + IC (does narthecium confer FNP to joined IC?)
Chapter banner + Honor guard + IC (does the banner confer +1A to the joined IC?)
Be careful when you read these because the often cited example of the Chaos Icon for instance specifically mentions that it does NOT affect the attached IC. This list is exhaustive as I currently know it, and the answer will be the same across the board - these either ALL work or they ALL don't. The usage is always the same between these two books "X does Y to *his unit*".
I haven't found any example in older books yet where they were much more diligent about specifying "X does Y to any unit he has joined" (course we still have arguments on dakka that this means any unit he has ever joined... but there probably is no real way to write a rule that we won't froth at the mouth about).
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2008/12/15 14:13:49
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/12/15 14:51:58
Subject: Re:Warboss with nobs. No FNP for the big guy?
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Average Orc Boy
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Well, why should it be allowed to use FNP from Painboy but disallowed to use FNP from an Apothecary?
It´s all allowed except stuff like the Chaos Icon which is excluded in it´s own rules or units like Plague Marines who have FNP by themself and not provided by a unit in the Squad.
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You see the morbid horror flicker in my eyes But rest assured, Im gonna help to ease your pain.
I'm gonna put a thousand tiny implants in your brain
I'm your boy, I'll make you undulate with joy
Cos I'm the Doctor |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/12/15 14:59:06
Subject: Warboss with nobs. No FNP for the big guy?
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Widowmaker
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It's a broken way to declare a rule either way you call it. Stuff like Snikrot granting ambush to Ghazkrull is obviously as over-the-top unintended as Shrike not being able to grant infiltrate to a unit he joins.
Same wording though and same relevant rules in the BGB. This is not as black and white as the loudest majority of this thread would have you believe.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/12/15 15:36:23
Subject: Warboss with nobs. No FNP for the big guy?
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Dakka Veteran
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Either way the IC rule has been around since 4th ed. It hasn't changed one bit. Look it up, I posted the spot a few posts up.
So, play however your gaming group feels it needs to be played.
But as far as tournaments or any other organized event are concerned, this rule (again) has been around for 5 years and guess what, it is played like it always has been played (including the GW staffers themselves)! I will not be surprised if you (thats anyone) brings this up to the organizer or judge and you get the "whatz you talkin' 'bout Willis" look.
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DA 3rd Co. w/duelwing 6000+ pts
Mostly tanks 2000+ pts
Ultras 3rd Co and 1st Co. 7000+ pts
Harald Deathwolf's Co. 7000+ pts
4000+ pts (Daemonhunters)
Kabal of the Hydra 5000+ pts
Skullrippa'z Freebootaz 6000+ pts
Plague Marine Force 2000+ pts
and not finished until I own some of every army
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/12/15 18:27:19
Subject: Warboss with nobs. No FNP for the big guy?
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Incorporating Wet-Blending
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So, if the IC gets FNP, can I start giving my CSM characters +1 T or FNP for joining a Nurgle/PM squad? :-)
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-James
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/12/15 18:28:51
Subject: Re:Warboss with nobs. No FNP for the big guy?
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Hooded Inquisitorial Interrogator
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LordWaffles wrote:Anyway, kudos on frgsinwntr for massive amounts of investigative research.
A bit of a shame its been proven wrong (note: past tense).
though the tenacity of the opposition is remarkable.
Almost as remarkable as the ignorance of those defending the concept. Truly its a fine example of those who think RAW stands for "Rules As Wished"
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If brute force doesn't work, you're not using enough... |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/12/15 18:34:24
Subject: Warboss with nobs. No FNP for the big guy?
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Why should a lack of acceptable conclusion either way be a surprise given the way people have conducted themselves in this thread?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/12/15 19:20:17
Subject: Re:Warboss with nobs. No FNP for the big guy?
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Confessor Of Sins
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Hymirl wrote:LordWaffles wrote:Anyway, kudos on frgsinwntr for massive amounts of investigative research.
A bit of a shame its been proven wrong (note: past tense).
though the tenacity of the opposition is remarkable.
Almost as remarkable as the ignorance of those defending the concept. Truly its a fine example of those who think RAW stands for "Rules As Wished"
actually... no I was never proven wrong. I just can't say the same thing any more ways to people who don't listen.
Second you're really a nasty individual. I can't believe you haven't been warned by a mod. All you do is flame.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/12/15 19:20:49
Subject: Warboss with nobs. No FNP for the big guy?
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Confessor Of Sins
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Nurglitch wrote:Why should a lack of acceptable conclusion either way be a surprise given the way people have conducted themselves in this thread?
meh... I was hoping a mod would step in...
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/12/15 19:27:20
Subject: Warboss with nobs. No FNP for the big guy?
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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The mods only step in when they're asked to, and even then they rarely actually moderate a discussion.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/12/15 20:50:26
Subject: Re:Warboss with nobs. No FNP for the big guy?
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Hooded Inquisitorial Interrogator
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frgsinwntr wrote:actually... no I was never proven wrong. I just can't say the same thing any more ways to people who don't listen.
Your complete inabilty to defend your argument means exactly that. You haven't posted a single responce to anything I've said thats actually relevant nor brought anything to the discussion to refute what I've said. In every responce to me you're attempted a completely different defense each of which I defeated in detail with relevant replies. Even when I clearly demonstrated the exact page references required you still ignore the over whelming evidence opposing you.
Second you're really a nasty individual. I can't believe you haven't been warned by a mod. All you do is flame.
Yes yes, I'm sure you're very upset some meanie didn't let you get your way. Awww...
You've not been treated unfairly, so stop playing the victim and being so thin skinned. You where quite rude to me after my first post here, cut and pasting a totally inappropiate responce and telling me to try reading the correct rulebook, then you posted insulting pictures to make out that everyone arguing against you was either a child or a donkey. And when it comes to not listening to what people say you're the biggest offender by a clear mile.
You deserve no sympathy for your actions.
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If brute force doesn't work, you're not using enough... |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/12/15 21:11:52
Subject: Warboss with nobs. No FNP for the big guy?
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Confessor Of Sins
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You done being a Dick head yet?
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