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I pick the Transport that is the baseline for my main army.

You can insist that the choice makes sense, and you can make up reasons why, but those are justifications.

The line of discussion was whether or not you can kill transports with 9 Lascannons. By ignoring a bunch of other transports that are easily killed by Lascannons, and focusing on one that's not, you're shifting the whole discussion in favor of the point you're making.

You seem to be saying you didn't do it for that reason. That's fine, I don't care why you think things. I care if they're useful things to think. And if the thought experiment is "can 9 Lascannon shots kill transports" then the best way to look at that is to pick an "average" transport.

Hardly, I didn't write the rules.

Hardly what? Hardly worth repeating stuff to you until you pay attention?

Probably.

Let me REPEAT. You said this: "2 Pens, with a 33% chance of either destroying the vehicle...so...you don't."

Even with your own numbers, you're wrong. Two Pens with a 33% chance to destroy is a net 56% chance to destroy the vehicle. If you're going to go binary "do" vs "don't" then .56 rounds up to 1, and that's "do."

I didn't consider them fair, especially given everyone knows a devastating sneeze kills a Rhino.

Right, anything that doesn't support your point isn't fair. Nobody uses Rhinos, Immolators, etc. Right?

Chaos Dreadnought wrote:

Thanks for being so obtuse, it makes you look really smart.

Obviously the Oblits have Multi-Meltas, there are 9 of them in the Lash list already. And obviously if they're in range, they'll be used. The whole "9 Lascannons" thing is because it's a firing mode that can cover the whole table, and then there's no "good luck getting in range with your multi-melta" blabbering.

And Chaos Dreads? Honestly are we talking about taking them for a winning list? Are we really suggesting that not taking them is "tactically inept?"

When I said "can't seem to find any" I was referring to the sort of Multi-Meltas that other lists are using to make things happen. Landspeeders, Land Raiders, Attack Bikes, etc. Things that can get out there and put the weapons to use. An Oblit is only nominally mobile, and while it might get an MM shot at something, it's probably not until it's already unloaded its cargo.

Hardly fad then, when I carefully considered what you're saying, and have since rejected it as BS - I was wrong.

I'm not even sure what you're saying...

So I'll just try to be more clear what I'm saying. I'm NOT saying Melta weapons are bad. They're actually amazing. And I thought they were amazing before 5e. Now that 5e is here, they're pretty much THE weapon you want to be shooting at a tank.

HOWEVER, the problem is when people start thinking that just because they're a fantastic choice, there's no other weapon in the game, no other weapon worth taking, everything else is useless trash. That's fad thinking. It's "got to have the latest" instead of just building a solid list out of the current ruleset.

As I was saying above, there are no especially good delivery mechanisms for Mult-Meltas in the Chaos list, so you have to build around what you do have.

Necron armies are popular at Tournies. Point being?

I didn't say "popular" I said "hot." Meaning they're still doing well, placing well, etc. Necrons are not.

Since you obviously love Maths so much, try running the numbers on the same 9 Oblits, versus a Wave Serpent.

We already did this. By your own math, 56% chance to kill.

Firing 675 points of Oblits at ONE Transport vehicle to kill it, using 3 HS Choices to take out something that isn't even on my FoC, just to get your Lash to work?

You don't seem to know the difference between a thought experiment and a strategy.

Fetterkey seems to think that if a unit is in a transport, it's immune to Lash, as if you can't kill a transport. So, I ask, is it really true that you can't kill a transport? No. It's not. With 9 Lascannons at your disposal, you can kill a transport. Or three.

In Fetterkey-world, there's nothing to Lash, so there's nothing to shoot at besides transports. That's why I'm discussing 9 Lascannons at a transport.

Yeah I agree this is a classic troll thread. You've pegged it right. The best thing to do is ignore it.

Phryxis wrote:Fetterkey seems to think that if a unit is in a transport, it's immune to Lash, as if you can't kill a transport. So, I ask, is it really true that you can't kill a transport? No. It's not. With 9 Lascannons at your disposal, you can kill a transport. Or three.

9 BS 4 Lascannons vs. AV 11 (Rhino chassis): 6 hits, 4 pens, 1.33333 kills. This, of course, is a pure theory calculation that disregards cover and grouping effects; in actual terms, the lascannons will be significantly worse. Vehicles are hard to kill in 5th edition, Rhino chassis or no Rhino chassis. A properly built army will also have far more pressing targets than Rhinos for you to shoot at, and you'll have to divide your attention.

As for the various people calling me or this thread a troll-- not so. If you want to stick your fingers in your ears and yell "I'M NOT LISTENING," that's fine, but Lash really isn't as good as its reputation would have it. The thing is, Lash used to be a hell of a lot better than it is now. When it came out, transports were far worse, costed more, and were understandably less popular. The more people switch to mech, the worse Lash becomes. And these days, mech is looking better and better, though it is also somewhat overrated. To sum things up, Lash is not a *bad* power, especially for its cost, but it's much worse than when Codex: Chaos just came out, and people are still touting it as if it were great. If Lash is an integral part of your plans, I think it's time to think up some new plans.

Before you said lash is trash but now you say it is okay. I am okay with you flipping on your stance but honestly it really detracts from your position.

You are overrating rhinos in general. They give up easy kill points. Meltas own them and they are toast in close combat. They come with a bolter bolted on. All it takes is a few rolls of the dice to destroy them once they ate immobilized. They are good and indeed better now but they are far from invincible.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also a smart lash player when up against a wise opponent that knows how to counter this psychic power will hold back and use this in the closing stages of the game when the opponent is more vulnerable.

Afrikan Blonde wrote:Before you said lash is trash but now you say it is okay. I am okay with you flipping on your stance but honestly it really detracts from your position.

The very first line of my original post identifies "Lash is Trash" as a hyperbolic statement. To be honest, I called the thread that because I liked the rhyme. I'll restate what I said previously-- Lash is obviously not trash. Chaos Spawn are trash. Lash is just massively overrated.

Afrikan Blonde wrote:You are overrating rhinos in general. They give up easy kill points. Meltas own them and they are toast in close combat. They come with a bolter bolted on. All it takes is a few rolls of the dice to destroy them once they ate immobilized. They are good and indeed better now but they are far from invincible.

I don't think Rhinos are invincible. In fact, I think they're the easiest transport to destroy other than a Trukk or Chimera. However, even an easy to destroy vehicle takes quite a few hits to bring down in 5th Edition, and Rhinos usually aren't exactly high on the target priority list.

9 BS 4 Lascannons vs. AV 11 (Rhino chassis): 6 hits, 4 pens, 1.33333 kills.

Might as well have a binomial distribution... The odds of killing a Rhino with a single BS4 Lascannon shot:

1 shot, .667 hit, .444 Pen, .148 destroy.

0: 1.000 (0.237)
1: 0.763 (0.370)
2: 0.394 (0.257)
3: 0.137 (0.104)
4: 0.032 (0.027)
5: 0.005 (0.005)

That shows the number of killed tanks, the chances of at least that many being killed, and the chances of exactly that many being killed.

So, about a 14% chance to kill 3 Rhinos. Most likely result is 1 killed Rhino at 37%.

No question it's not automatic, no question there are better ways to kill vehicles (Melta, swarming them in CC), but all I've been trying to argue is that 9 Oblits are more than capable of putting units on foot, and vulnerable to Lash.

The more people switch to mech, the worse Lash becomes.

This is true, I'm not at all debating the fact that transports are the primary means to deal with Lash.

Even so, there will be some transports killed, forcing their cargo to walk. Also, because very few transports are "assault transports" the units inside will be vulnerable to Lash if they ever wish to disembark.

Above all, while it's true that transports are more common, there are some armies that don't have them at all (Tyranids, Necrons, Chaos Daemons), there are armies with units that are valuable, but can't use them (Tau, CSM), and then there are the rest, who can use them to varying degrees. So you're right, mech heavy lists like Eldar, Sisters and IG aren't as scared of Lash... But it's not like you can just say "transports, so Lash is done." It's still very strong.

9 Oblits can certainly put units on foot. However, the way I play, those units are already considered dead as soon as their transports go, Lash or no Lash, and they're far from integral to my plans. In fact, if you *don't* manage to Lash and kill them immediately, I consider that to be a bonus. Further, those 9 Oblits aren't going to be killing my dangerous stuff if they're focusing on knocking out transports-- for that matter, they aren't going to be killing infantry!

Once the transports are popped it's relatively simple to lash the troops.

Hmm, but from the numbers floated around its going to take all of the oblits firing solely at tranports every turn. Against SM all of the oblits will most likely destroy ONE transport the first turn, then in a perfect chaos world those troops get lashed and shot up by the oblits on turn 2. So then on turn 3 a second transport dies..... This isnt very efficient usage of the oblits fire power.

And against eldar it just gets worse, two full turns of all 9 oblits firing at a transport should on average kill the one transport. My, that is a scary thought for the eldar player Im sure.

Yes a good chaos player only uses lash to enhance his list; yes any other player only uses transports to enhance his list. Its mainly going to be a fight with the oblits, the list really shouldnt even be called a lash list, it should be called an oblit spam list.

If its a dual lash list without any oblits is it still scary?



As far as an IC that can handle a lash prince, any farseer with a runes of warding fits the bill nicely; starts at 90 points, can shut down/ wound the prince from anywhere on the table



Sliggoth

Sorry, that wasn't very clear. I was suggesting you do the maths for the Multi-Meltas. My bad.

Oblit fire really only has to knock down 1-2 transports initially. They don't have to kill every single one, just thin the horde enough for your secondary melta fire (CSM, Termicide) to efficiently bust the rest.

If six oblits can crack one transport, the other 3 can plasma cannon the Lash ball. As turns progress and secondary melta takes its toll more Oblits go from transport duty to guy duty and that's where Lash maximizes its effectiveness.

Nobody is going to argue that Oblits, who individually cost more than the transport they're shooting at, are super effective vehicle killers but they don't have to be. If they can bust one open on turn 1, that's often enough to get the ball rolling.

890 points dedicated to killing one transport...great.

You not only need to destroy the rhino/transport, you need to explode it. That means you have a 1/6 chance everytime you roll on the damage chart. Seeing as how you need 3 oblits for plasma cannons, youre left with 6. Are you really going to pen with all 6? Its more like closer to 3. 50% chance now, and a 25% chance if there's cover (which there probably would be).

Then you have a 1/12 chance of failing your lash test, and then you have to roll high enough to move the squad, not only into a nice formation, but out of cover (the crater) as well (so what? you need ~6 inches?)

Then you have to roll scatters for each plasma cannon, which also has that chance of screwing up. Not likely, but add it to the rest of the averages and it really does start to add up.

In the end if everything goes according to plan you kill a couple hundred point squad. This means that everything else is now going to be shooting you the following turn because you spent half your points shooting 1 rhino.

This is also assuming all your oblits/prince is still alive, considering...you know, 50% of your army consists of 10 guys and there really isnt much to shoot at.

Night Lords wrote:
You not only need to destroy the rhino/transport, you need to explode it. That means you have a 1/6 chance everytime you roll on the damage chart. Seeing as how you need 3 oblits for plasma cannons, youre left with 6. Are you really going to pen with all 6? Its more like closer to 3. 50% chance now, and a 25% chance if there's cover (which there probably would be).

No you don't, that's what Lash is for. Immobilization or destruction is "good enough" because you have Lash. They can either sit tight and do nothing or they can get out and get lashed.

Exactly and that is an important point that some are missing... Lash forces the opponent to keep their units embarked. That's very powerful.

sourclams wrote:

Night Lords wrote:
You not only need to destroy the rhino/transport, you need to explode it. That means you have a 1/6 chance everytime you roll on the damage chart. Seeing as how you need 3 oblits for plasma cannons, youre left with 6. Are you really going to pen with all 6? Its more like closer to 3. 50% chance now, and a 25% chance if there's cover (which there probably would be).

No you don't, that's what Lash is for. Immobilization or destruction is "good enough" because you have Lash. They can either sit tight and do nothing or they can get out and get lashed.

Actually, you do. Youve already moved your prince at that point, so if Im forced to disembark, im going to put them behind my rhino where you cant see me. Pretty basic gameplay.

Afrikan Blonde wrote:Exactly and that is an important point that some are missing... Lash forces the opponent to keep their units embarked. That's very powerful.

The point that others are missing is that many players are already keeping all their units embarked, so Lash has little to no effect on them.

Would it be safe to say that while the Lash of Submission is a useful psychic power, it's just one of several options available to players in Codex: Chaos Space Marines?

I wouldn't argue against the Lash of Submission being useful and even powerful, but I would argue against it being the only useful or competitive psychic power in the book.

After all, a psychic power can be over-rated, despite also being good. It's like Obliterators or Plague Marines: they do what they do and they do it well, but there are other competitive lists that have none of those three options, because they do other things and do them well.

I think that's probably fair to say.

In summary, Lash is not a *bad* power, but it is far worse than it was at release, and is one of the most overrated things in the game at present. Lash is still decent, but it's by no means the be-all end-all, and in many cases other powers can be just as effective, if not more so. When facing Lash, don't be intimidated by its inflated reputation, especially if you're all meched up. Keep a cool head, evaluate the enemy units, and focus on the real threat to your army. In all likelihood, that's not going to be the Lash.

And, for some of us, that was clearly your point all along.

Nothing is the end all be all. If that was the point it's the same as saying the sky is blue. In reality lash makes a CSM army much more powerful, even if it's use only occurs late in the game. Pulling an enemy scoring unit off an objective in the last turn of a game can easily be the difference between a win and a loss. It's an abusive psychic power.

Afrikan Blonde wrote:In reality lash makes a CSM army much more powerful, even if it's use only occurs late in the game. Pulling an enemy scoring unit off an objective in the last turn of a game can easily be the difference between a win and a loss. It's an abusive psychic power.

I disagree. It's an option like any other, and can be countered with the correct methods. This idea of Lash as some abusive or broken ultra-ability seriously contributes to the misconceptions that currently surround it.

Afrikan Blonde wrote:Nothing is the end all be all. If that was the point it's the same as saying the sky is blue. In reality lash makes a CSM army much more powerful, even if it's use only occurs late in the game. Pulling an enemy scoring unit off an objective in the last turn of a game can easily be the difference between a win and a loss. It's an abusive psychic power.

I think this is the problem he has, as do I. It doesnt outright make it much more powerful. Youre stating this as a fact and that Lash > Warptime or any other power under any circumstances.

Fact is, it has disadvantages as well. The major one being a T5 prince that is forced to go into range of guns hes most susceptible to. Mech is another disadvantage, as is the power of any other troops that have blast templates relying on it when it dies.

And I thought my Leaping thread would be troll fodder.

the mind boggles.


(fetterkey gets +100 troll points)

Afrikan Blonde wrote:Nothing is the end all be all. If that was the point it's the same as saying the sky is blue. In reality lash makes a CSM army much more powerful, even if it's use only occurs late in the game. Pulling an enemy scoring unit off an objective in the last turn of a game can easily be the difference between a win and a loss. It's an abusive psychic power.

Not really. The sky isn't blue, it's just the particles blah blah light blah refracted blah blah shorter wavelength blah blue.



More seriously, I think abusive is overstating. It CAN be abused, but, by itself, is not terribly overpowered.
Interestingly, it started out much weaker, before playtesting.

Against SM all of the oblits will most likely destroy ONE transport the first turn

Most likely, yes. But it's also fairly likely they'll kill two...

The idea here isn't that the Oblits should be shooting all day long at transports. The reason this whole "9 Oblits shooting" thing came up, is because there was a suggestion that the Lash armies couldn't deal with transports. My point was to suggest that an army with 9 BS4 Lascannons is not exactly short on transport killing firepower.

I don't like the suggestion that the Lash army is going to be sitting there dumbfounded and powerless as transports drive up and have their way.

Anyway, yes, it's a waste to be blasting at transports all game, but realistically turn 1 tends to be a bit slow, and there's not a ton to shoot at. Those 9 Lascannon shots will quite often kill a transport or two right off the bat.

Sorry, that wasn't very clear. I was suggesting you do the maths for the Multi-Meltas. My bad.

I would, but I don't care, because I already know that Multi-Meltas are fantastic.

Typically they're equal to Lascannons from 12-24", much better inside of 12" and then, obviously, worthless outside 24". This would be a reasonably fair tradeoff, except that they're also usually cheaper than Lascannons.

I've said this many times before, but the greatness of Melta weapons is in the fact that they allow better planning. With a Lascannon, you're just shooting S9, pretty much anywhere on the table, and your chances to kill tanks are nothing special, so you blast away, and maybe you kill something right off, maybe later, maybe never. Hard to plan around. With a Melta weapon you need to get close, and if you get very close you've got a VERY good chance of killing a tank, but if you're willing to do that, you know it's pretty likely to work.

That said, they're not the only weapon in the game. For example, I'd advocate the use of a single Tactical Squad to hold the nearby objective in missions that call for it. That squad should have something with range. I'd suggest a Las/Plas combo.

The point that others are missing is that many players are already keeping all their units embarked, so Lash has little to no effect on them.

This is an exaggeration... I play Mech Sisters a lot, and over time I learned to stop being in a hurry to rush the Rhinos up and get the Sisters out to shoot. That said, if the girls aren't getting out of the Rhino, I'm not winning. They're going to be getting out, and honestly, they're probably going to spend at least half the game on foot.

Units that never leave their transport are not worth much, even when they're min units meant to make a vehicle scoring.

Phryxis wrote:Units that never leave their transport are not worth much, even when they're min units meant to make a vehicle scoring.

Disagree. A scoring Razorback is probably worth 130 points on its own.

Fetterkey wrote:

Phryxis wrote:Units that never leave their transport are not worth much, even when they're min units meant to make a vehicle scoring.

Disagree. A scoring Razorback is probably worth 130 points on its own.

And if their razorback is immobilized away from an objective, the scoring razorback and the unit inside isn't worth too much.

whitedragon wrote:And if their razorback is immobilized away from an objective, the scoring razorback and the unit inside isn't worth too much.

Not really sure what your point is, to be honest...

This thread makes me want to bite off my own head. Trolllaaan at its best.

meh - 10 drop pods would be nasty, but doable. Castle up and deny him a clean shot on the oblits from the drop. The rhino screen and terrain will prevent the BA from getting to my oblits and princes on 1. Sure pop all of the rhinos, I don't care. You WILL NOT kill all of the plague marines. On my side of one get ready for a lot of dying as the meltas/plasma guns/mult meltas/plasma cannons hit you.

I play a guy at my local shop with a BA pod army, and it took me 3 or 4 games to figure out how to beat him, but now it is easy. Carefule deployment and placement will prevent you from doing much of anything on turn 1 other than dropping in.

If they all came in on 1 then you would be ok. Half of the army is not enough to stand up to 6 meltas, 4 plasma guns, 9 multimelta/plasma cannon/las cannons and 2 lash princes.