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JJ's column.
Price increases in shorter and shorter cycles.
Lack of scenarios for tournaments.

Hey, codex creep slowed down on the 40k side. SW, Tyranids, and now Blood angles, all old armies all getting redone. And hey, Tau might be around the corner.

But the prices and staff they hire for GW have always made me angry, but it cant be helped.

Happygrunt wrote:Hey, codex creep slowed down on the 40k side. SW, Tyranids, and now Blood angles, all old armies all getting redone. And hey, Tau might be around the corner.

One downside is that DE is not around the corner.

nothing really, but they could make the sob and grey knights plastic and they should make stuff less pricey (i.e: the dreads- £25?! or the 'nid raveners- £27 for three and only 40pts each?!

Fact of the matter is, all hobbies are expensive. Usually, the term "hobby" means its going to cost money, more than we would like it to cost, but you are supposed to genuinely enjoy a hobby, thus your willingness to pay for it.

For example, i used to paintball in my spare time. Markers run anywhere from 200 to 1,000 dollars and a box of nice paint is 60 or more. Once i add the cost of additional gear, plus air, a place to play, possible rentals if needed. It becomes extremely expensive for a day of enjoyment. But i was willing to pay for it. Now that i turned 18 and got 2 jobs i dont even have the time to play, even though i have more money than i did then.

Warhammer models are in my opinion a good investment overall, hobby wise. I enjoy modeling, painting, and general game play. Once i finish modeling and painting the mini is there for a lifetime if i so choose. And i can play as much as i am able to with it. Yes a bloodthirster costs 57$ but its metal, and provides what i want.

The point is, i enjoy it, so its worth it. I currently dont have money to buy everything i would like to, so i buy what i can through alternative choices. Ebay stores sell at discounted prices, local listings, craigslist, fellow hobbyists looking to sell, discounts at FLGS.

GW is only as bad as you let it be. Its your decision.

JohnHwangDD wrote:And the PDF as a full-page FAQ, along with a full copy of the "long" rules.

How wonderfully disengenuous of your DD. The FAQ is about the tournament itself (locations, costs, registration, etc.). Not the rules of the game.

Games workshop ships a product with a few shortcomings and the fans don't realizing that a captive audience isn't particularly compelling when it whines.

Well, my codex arrived today (Saturday). The reason it took so long is because they sent it media mail. Which is like 37th class and explains why it took like 4-5 days from Memphis to the Philly suburbs instead of 2.

Anyhoo, because they sent it USPS media mail, it arrived via the regular US mail carrier, who bent the envelope in half and crammed it into my mailbox. Not his fault -- he didn't see any "DO NOT BEND" stamps on the envelope because they weren't there, and how the heck was he to know?

It's still bent, but I think it's salvagable and will straighten with time and flexing. GW is lucky in that I have an oversized mailbox and that it didn't *quite* get bent enough to become creased. If it had, I would have received a new codex and something for the trouble, I can guarantee you that.

And that would have been justice given that they caused my trouble because they went cheap on the shipping instead of taking care of an excited customer who preordered the product the first day I was able to do so.

This isn't really a "GW sucks in every way" rant. Just a reminder that for the love of God, don't ever preorder from them or buy from the online store if you can help it. Go to a reputable retailer with a clue and you'll end up with a far better customer experience.

ShumaGorath wrote:Games workshop ships a product with a few shortcomings and the fans don't realizing that a captive audience isn't particularly compelling when it whines.

The level of whining is proportionate to any gaps between customer's expectations regarding the level of the product's performance and the actual performance, given the price.

keezus wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:Games workshop ships a product with a few shortcomings and the fans don't realizing that a captive audience isn't particularly compelling when it whines.

The level of whining is proportionate to any gaps between customer's expectations regarding the level of the product's performance and the actual performance, given the price.

Incorrect. Such gaps in quality and expectation are what cause market churn, the people on this thread still actively participate in the business games workshop is selling. Thus they have not been churned out. Thus they just have an overhyped sense of self importance and don't realize that words are wasted and the only true effort is to vote with your wallet.

so what? its our fault that GW sucks? and we should just keep our mouths shut?!?! (and wallets closed).
Pfffffffttttt. not gonna happen (well the wallet part maybe).
the customer always has the right to complain if hes dissatisfied with service and product. call it whinning if you like but the words getting old and lossing its power to make people reconcider. (if it ever really did) in fact keep using it and it will go the other way of words like Hooped and sick.
Whine = disatisfaction with company?.... well then whine away. its a positive in my book now.

so what? its our fault that GW sucks? and we should just keep our mouths shut?!?! (and wallets closed).
Pfffffffttttt. not gonna happen (well the wallet part maybe).

Then keep whining. They don't care. If you whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and keep buying the product they have no incentive to change. If you whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and stop buying the product they will listen to less whiny and better reasoned breakdowns for why their business model isn't working.

the customer always has the right to complain if hes dissatisfied with service and product. call it whinning if you like but the words getting old and lossing its power to make people reconcider. (if it ever really did) in fact keep using it and it will go the other way of words like Hooped and sick.

And the company has the right not to listen. This isn't some sort of equal exchange here. You buy their crap, they don't come to your house asking for a nice dinner in return.

Whine = disatisfaction with company?.... well then whine away. its a positive in my book now.

Then at least form better and more logical opinions, while using sensible page breaks. You don't need to hit enter between every idea.

i'll agree with everything youve said aside form the last point.
i like
to use
page breakes,
it helps me concentrate the point im trying to get across.
As for logical opinions, well.... thats in the hands of the person reading it.... it wouldnt matter sometimes here if i wrote a master thesis that could score 110% on a final, someone will always misinterpit, confuse, blur, side track, and well.... what ever you can think of. and as im never going to write a masters thesis, that just makes it all the harder.

Ack, have to agree with Shuma again (I'll go /wrists now).

Most of the people whining and bitching about GW keep buying their product. That is counter-productive. GW only cares about your dollar. As long as you keep giving them your dollars they'll keep pissing you off (though most peoples gripes are just gripes for raising post counts) and not changing how they do things.

If you bitch about how your gardener mows your lawn but you keep paying him anyway do you think he's going to start trying to satisfy you or do you think he'll keep doing it his way as long as he knows he'll keep getting paid? I know what I'd do if I was that gardener and it wouldn't be option 1.

ShumaGorath wrote:If you whine ... and stop buying the product they will listen to less whiny and better reasoned breakdowns for why their business model isn't working.

But their business model is working. They're going through a very typical cycle for national and international businesses. They had a slump after great revenue from a special product (LOTR) and they cut staff, closed non-profitable locations and generally reorganized things. They've been pursuing their plan of increasing royalty based revenue and have beat their own expectations for earnings in the last reporting period.

They have a plan going forward of opening micro-hobby centres with a table or two and much less square footage and staff as their traditional format. The goal for these is to recruit new customers by the demo sales process.

So they don't give a crap about what whiners like me have been saying for the last 5 or 6 years. And they shouldn't. We were wrong. All the GW doom and gloomers, of which I have been a particularly vocal member, were wrong. GW isn't going bankrupt any time soon and will likely grow their revenue from here.

I used to believe that all good businesses should focus on customer retention and repeat sales. But this isn't the case. A company that targets some shiny thing at 13 year old girls should not attempt to retain them as customers into their 20s and beyond. That would be silly. Similarly, GW should not attempt to appease the life long gamer-- they're the anomaly. The teenager recruited by the demo sales process and sticks around long enough for an army release or two and then stops is the norm. People who don't even play the game regularly are the norm. People excited about their stuff to play it for years and years (or even decades) and who love to talk about it on the internet are not the norm. Money spent on retaining them as customers is probably better spent on new meat.

frozenwastes wrote:

So they don't give a crap about what whiners like me have been saying for the last 5 or 6 years. And they shouldn't. We were wrong. All the GW doom and gloomers, of which I have been a particularly vocal member, were wrong. GW isn't going bankrupt any time soon and will likely grow their revenue from here.

I used to believe that all good businesses should focus on customer retention and repeat sales. But this isn't the case. A company that targets some shiny thing at 13 year old girls should not attempt to retain them as customers into their 20s and beyond. That would be silly. Similarly, GW should not attempt to appease the life long gamer-- they're the anomaly. The teenager recruited by the demo sales process and sticks around long enough for an army release or two and then stops is the norm. People who don't even play the game regularly are the norm. People excited about their stuff to play it for years and years (or even decades) and who love to talk about it on the internet are not the norm. Money spent on retaining them as customers is probably better spent on new meat.

This brings me back to my quandry that I brought up a couple of pages ago. I can understand GW not spending much money on retaining customers, but for the most part the things they'd need to do to get sales from veterans probably wouldn't cost them anything. It's be rules-related stuff, and they already have a rules design team employed full time, and clearly not working as hard as they could be. Surely GW corporates are interested in making money any way they can. Since all they need to do to make some more money off veterans (even if its only a small amount) is pressure the design team to create some additional army lists, advanced rules, FAQ's, chapter approved columns etc, why not do so? All it would cost them is a few columns of text on the website or in White Dwarf.

Am I missing something? Are GW game designers paid £x per project rather than a standard full-time wage? Because then it would make sense not to ask more of them, but otherwise it just doesn't.

Also, I'm still far from convinced that their current business model will be successful long term. The way they're focusing their efforts is bound to maximise profits short-term, but will likely destroy interest in the game/hobby long-term. It'll take a while, but I still believe they're painting themselves into a corner. Guess we'll just have to wait and see.

Samus666 wrote:
This brings me back to my quandry that I brought up a couple of pages ago. I can understand GW not spending much money on retaining customers, but for the most part the things they'd need to do to get sales from veterans probably wouldn't cost them anything. It's be rules-related stuff, and they already have a rules design team employed full time, and clearly not working as hard as they could be.

I had the pleasure of playing against Jervis about 10 years ago. I was playing Dark Eldar. I used a piece of wargear and he literally said, "What's that do?" It was a real eye opener that the guy who wrote the codex didn't know its rules. It happened twice more during that game. How are they supposed to design new armies with the old ones in mind when the people who write the things don't even know how they work?

It's a job for the designers. And productivity in a corporate environment is not always the highest. I totally understand a GW studio member wanting to do the least possible and have the least stress possible while still keeping his job. When it's 9-5, there's no reason to keep the hobbyist's zeal and excitement. I haven't seen any genuine love for the hobby out of the design studio since Andy Chambers and Gav Thorpe left for greener pastures. Andy Chambers really pushed the envelope with quality "Chapter Approved" content-- those were exciting times to be building new 40k armies-- especially marines and chaos.

Also, I'm still far from convinced that their current business model will be successful long term. The way they're focusing their efforts is bound to maximise profits short-term, but will likely destroy interest in the game/hobby long-term. It'll take a while, but I still believe they're painting themselves into a corner. Guess we'll just have to wait and see.

Destroy interest in the game/hobby long-term? As long as fresh meat walks into the front door faster than it gets churned out, then that'll never happen. I've been predicting that GW neglecting customer retention would destroy their business for the last 10 years. Hasn't happened yet. Maybe it will over the next few years.

It depends what keeps the fresh meat walking in the door.

I have always assumed the presence of veteran players acted as a significant free marketing tool for GW. If true, then things would start to crumble if vets resighed from participation.

My other assumption is that the various IP spin offs (books and computer games) sell mainly off the back of the table top game. So any crumbling of the TT gamer numbers would quickly reduce licensing income.

I must express my delight at the new BA codex that is coming out.

That is all.

gorgon wrote:Well, my codex arrived today (Saturday). The reason it took so long is because they sent it media mail. Which is like 37th class and explains why it took like 4-5 days from Memphis to the Philly suburbs instead of 2.

Anyhoo, because they sent it USPS media mail, it arrived via the regular US mail carrier, who bent the envelope in half and crammed it into my mailbox. Not his fault -- he didn't see any "DO NOT BEND" stamps on the envelope because they weren't there, and how the heck was he to know?

It's still bent, but I think it's salvagable and will straighten with time and flexing. GW is lucky in that I have an oversized mailbox and that it didn't *quite* get bent enough to become creased. If it had, I would have received a new codex and something for the trouble, I can guarantee you that.

And that would have been justice given that they caused my trouble because they went cheap on the shipping instead of taking care of an excited customer who preordered the product the first day I was able to do so.

This isn't really a "GW sucks in every way" rant. Just a reminder that for the love of God, don't ever preorder from them or buy from the online store if you can help it. Go to a reputable retailer with a clue and you'll end up with a far better customer experience.

or get it sent to your local GW store.

Yeah, the one time I've complained with GW shipping. Got mine Tuesday. I could have driven 90 minutes on Saturday morning to Hobbytown and had it 3 days early and on the day of release.

Normally GW shipping is good but their free shipping is parcel post.

I don't really have any complaints regarding GW shipping.

Then again, I've never pre-ordered or ordered a soft codex or anything.

Toys that cost to much. Paint that costs to much. A catalogue that costs money. gak brushes that cost too much. A distinct lack of editors. Shirking responsibility on writing competitive rules.

But I still like 40k.