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Monster Rain wrote:Who says they can't adapt to Lasers?

Shotguns aren't going to be as effective against the Borg as they are against people. Those things can take a beating.

Indeed, in all the episodes they seem to adapt to energy weapons rather well...
Plus, as noted in Voyager and ST, they will attack the ship itself. Venting all the O2 will take care of those pasky shotcannon guys.

So many 40k fanboys in this thread...

How can the Imperium beat the Shadows? The Shadows are virtually undetectable. They will choose their battles every time. They are more than capable of corrupting the Imperium and throwing it into a civil war.

How can the Imperium beat the Vorlons? A certain human telepath altered by the Vorlons is capable of mind controlling an entire marketplace, 100+ people. We have no idea how powerful Vorlons actually are. They managed to convince an entire galaxy that they were angels/gods. They are extremely resistant to energy weapons and as beings of pure energy they are probably impervious to the vast majority of standard weapons. I doubt anything short of a nuke could even tickle them.

And what about the Mobile Infantry of Starship Troopers (just the book). They are faster, more armored, and carry more firepower than Space Marines. I don't know the exact quote, but it is stated in the book that a single trooper can easily defeat a squadron of tanks and that to use tanks against them would be pointless. Leman Russes are no bigger than the tanks they were talking about.

Two things make the Imperium a difficult opponent. The size of the Imperium and the strength of their Imperial Navy.

Because they are directed energy weapons.
***Please cite some reference somewhere, where Borg can't shield themselves from coherent beams of light.

It would go like this:

Step One: Borg give the Imperial Vessel "The Speech."




Step Two: Imperial Vessel Opens fire, Borg Cube immobilizes Imperial Vessel with Tractor Beam.

Step Three: Borg Cube Adapts to energy weapons, takes the damage from the non-energy weapons because it can operate with 78% of their structure destroyed.

Step Four: Borg Cube uses cutting beam to carve the Imperial Vessel up like a Thanksgiving turkey.

Step Five: Assimilation.

IvanTih wrote:Because they are directed energy weapons.

And a Phaser isn't?

Amaya wrote:So many 40k fanboys in this thread...

How can the Imperium beat the Shadows? The Shadows are virtually undetectable. They will choose their battles every time. They are more than capable of corrupting the Imperium and throwing it into a civil war.

How can the Imperium beat the Vorlons? A certain human telepath altered by the Vorlons is capable of mind controlling an entire marketplace, 100+ people. We have no idea how powerful Vorlons actually are. They managed to convince an entire galaxy that they were angels/gods. They are extremely resistant to energy weapons and as beings of pure energy they are probably impervious to the vast majority of standard weapons. I doubt anything short of a nuke could even tickle them.

And what about the Mobile Infantry of Starship Troopers (just the book). They are faster, more armored, and carry more firepower than Space Marines. I don't know the exact quote, but it is stated in the book that a single trooper can easily defeat a squadron of tanks and that to use tanks against them would be pointless. Leman Russes are no bigger than the tanks they were talking about.

Two things make the Imperium a difficult opponent. The size of the Imperium and the strength of their Imperial Navy.

And you ingore the fact that Vorlons and Shadows acts are pale in comparision of what God Emperor does.
Mobile Infantry may have 2 kiloton nuke guns,but they screwed in space.

You forgot step Six: Borg Party!

Monster Rain wrote:It would go like this:

Step One: Borg give the Imperial Vessel "The Speech."




Step Two: Imperial Vessel Opens fire, Borg Cube immobilizes Imperial Vessel with Tractor Beam.

Step Three: Borg Cube Adapts to energy weapons, takes the damage from the non-energy weapons because it can operate with 78% of their structure destroyed.

Step Four: Borg Cube uses cutting beam to carve the Imperial Vessel up like a Thanksgiving turkey.

Step Five: Assimilation.

Except that Borg will be destroyed by one shot,nice try trekkie.

Borg adaptation isn't unlimited.

A 40k ship is generally crewed by the equivalent of Hive Gangers as basic ratings, and that's before security turns up with the shotcannons.

IvanTih wrote:

And you ingore the fact that Vorlons and Shadows acts are pale in comparision of what God Emperor does.
Mobile Infantry may have 2 kiloton nuke guns,but they screwed in space.

1. The God Emperor doesn't do anything but poo in the Golden Throne.
2. Yep Mobile Infantry would do less well in space. Thats like a saying an airplane won't do well under water.

Why would the Borg Ship be destroyed in one shot?

Frazzled wrote:You forgot step Six: Borg Party!

A sexy Borg Party.

Frazzled wrote:

IvanTih wrote:

And you ingore the fact that Vorlons and Shadows acts are pale in comparision of what God Emperor does.
Mobile Infantry may have 2 kiloton nuke guns,but they screwed in space.

1. The God Emperor doesn't do anything but poo in the Golden Throne.
2. Yep Mobile Infantry would do less well in space. Thats like a saying an airplane won't do well under water.

They don't have the firepower to match the IOM.

He also battles Chaos Gods IIRC.

How would the IoM ship even target them? They move faster than light. The IoM doesn't.

Frazzled wrote:How would the IoM ship even target them? They move faster than light. The IoM doesn't.

Particularly when they are in a tractor beam, methinks.

Frazzled wrote:How would the IoM ship even target them? They move faster than light. The IoM doesn't.

Who cares when you've got superior firepower and better crew.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Monster Rain wrote:

Frazzled wrote:How would the IoM ship even target them? They move faster than light. The IoM doesn't.

Particularly when they are in a tractor beam, methinks.

A beam that will not help when the cube gets blasted to pieces.

Isn't it pretty well established that IoM has lower tech than Star Trek?

I mean, is that even an argument that we need to have?

IvanTih wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:

Frazzled wrote:How would the IoM ship even target them? They move faster than light. The IoM doesn't.

Particularly when they are in a tractor beam, methinks.

A beam that will not help when the cube gets blasted to pieces.

IoM vessels won't even see the Borg coming, they'll be in the Tractor Beam with their guns facing the wrong way before they even know what happened.

Monster Rain wrote:Isn't it pretty well established that IoM has lower tech than Star Trek?

I mean, is that even an argument that we need to have?

No the effectivness matters.

IvanTih wrote:

Frazzled wrote:How would the IoM ship even target them? They move faster than light. The IoM doesn't.

Who cares when you've got superior firepower and better crew.

Ok. Blackbeard the pirate has 100 guys with blunderbusses in a nice square, guns at the ready.
They are now attacked by a Mig 25 flying full out Mach 3. The Mig strafes as it passes from 5,000 feet, turns and does it again and again and again and again and again.
Who would you rather be?




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Monster Rain wrote:Why would the Borg Ship be destroyed in one shot?

Frazzled wrote:You forgot step Six: Borg Party!

A sexy Borg Party.

Son, I like what you've done with the place.

Here's a quote about lances by Andy Chambers.

Lances, By Andy Chambers
The lance weapons themselves would be enormous energy projectors- each one the size of a chimney. They work by combining focussed coherent light(i.e. Lasers) and electromagnetic pulses as a propellant for highly energised particles (i.e. plasma). The closest naturally occuring equivalent would be a solar flare but focussed into a narrow beam.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Frazzled wrote:How would the IoM ship even target them? They move faster than light. The IoM doesn't.


Who cares when you've got superior firepower and better crew.


Ok. Blackbeard the pirate has 100 guys with blunderbusses in a nice square, guns at the ready.
They are now attacked by a Mig 25 flying full out Mach 3. The Mig strafes as it passes from 5,000 feet, turns and does it again and again and again and again and again.

Who would you rather be?

IvanTih wrote:Here's a quote about lances by Andy Chambers.

Lances, By Andy Chambers
The lance weapons themselves would be enormous energy projectors- each one the size of a chimney. They work by combining focussed coherent light(i.e. Lasers) and electromagnetic pulses as a propellant for highly energised particles (i.e. plasma). The closest naturally occuring equivalent would be a solar flare but focussed into a narrow beam.

See the example above, as posted by Frazzled.

They could have Chuck Norris with a Beard-Mounted Nuclear Roundhouse Launcher on board, they'd never get a chance to use it!

Okay, bad example. Chuck Norris could take the Borg, but you understand my point.

IvanTih wrote:And you forget the fact that Borg would need to do that thousand of times to make any significant progress.
On top of that, ,their accelerations are easily in the thousands of gees (a grand frigate can pull 9000 gees or so as per Sabbat Martyr IIRC.. 9 AU in 91 minutes.)

With their sophisticated sensor scans they could cripple an Imperial Ship in a few volleys.

Shield Generators, Engines, Life Support. Boom.

Monster Rain wrote:

IvanTih wrote:Here's a quote about lances by Andy Chambers.

Lances, By Andy Chambers
The lance weapons themselves would be enormous energy projectors- each one the size of a chimney. They work by combining focussed coherent light(i.e. Lasers) and electromagnetic pulses as a propellant for highly energised particles (i.e. plasma). The closest naturally occuring equivalent would be a solar flare but focussed into a narrow beam.

See the example above, as posted by Frazzled.

They could have Chuck Norris with a Beard-Mounted Nuclear Roundhouse Launcher on board, they'd never get a chance to use it!

Okay, bad example. Chuck Norris could take the Borg, but you understand my point.

IvanTih wrote:And you forget the fact that Borg would need to do that thousand of times to make any significant progress.
On top of that, ,their accelerations are easily in the thousands of gees (a grand frigate can pull 9000 gees or so as per Sabbat Martyr IIRC.. 9 AU in 91 minutes.)

With their sophisticated sensor scans they could cripple an Imperial Ship in a few volleys.

Shield Generators, Engines, Life Support. Boom.

All those components are inside the ship.Nice try.First they are going to have penetrate Void shields.

IvanTih wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:

IvanTih wrote:Here's a quote about lances by Andy Chambers.

Lances, By Andy Chambers
The lance weapons themselves would be enormous energy projectors- each one the size of a chimney. They work by combining focussed coherent light(i.e. Lasers) and electromagnetic pulses as a propellant for highly energised particles (i.e. plasma). The closest naturally occuring equivalent would be a solar flare but focussed into a narrow beam.

See the example above, as posted by Frazzled.

They could have Chuck Norris with a Beard-Mounted Nuclear Roundhouse Launcher on board, they'd never get a chance to use it!

Okay, bad example. Chuck Norris could take the Borg, but you understand my point.

IvanTih wrote:And you forget the fact that Borg would need to do that thousand of times to make any significant progress.
On top of that, ,their accelerations are easily in the thousands of gees (a grand frigate can pull 9000 gees or so as per Sabbat Martyr IIRC.. 9 AU in 91 minutes.)

With their sophisticated sensor scans they could cripple an Imperial Ship in a few volleys.

Shield Generators, Engines, Life Support. Boom.

All those components are inside the ship.Nice try.First they are going to have penetrate Void shields.

Lollerskates!

Disruptors>Void Shields. It's in the Bible.

The Borg can also adapt their weapons to pass through shields, so that's no big deal.

Even if takes them awhile (it won't) they have time. They're effectively invulnerable to to anything outside of necrons and potentially Eldar (may have better tracking or integrated psyker tracking).

Actual boarding, ayah they would have a much harder time, again right up until they successfully take over the ship itself. As noted, once they've taken one they can now replicate or defend against the IoM fleet. Emperor golden hotpants will be adapted to service...them.

Monster Rain wrote:

IvanTih wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:

IvanTih wrote:Here's a quote about lances by Andy Chambers.

Lances, By Andy Chambers
The lance weapons themselves would be enormous energy projectors- each one the size of a chimney. They work by combining focussed coherent light(i.e. Lasers) and electromagnetic pulses as a propellant for highly energised particles (i.e. plasma). The closest naturally occuring equivalent would be a solar flare but focussed into a narrow beam.

See the example above, as posted by Frazzled.

They could have Chuck Norris with a Beard-Mounted Nuclear Roundhouse Launcher on board, they'd never get a chance to use it!

Okay, bad example. Chuck Norris could take the Borg, but you understand my point.

IvanTih wrote:And you forget the fact that Borg would need to do that thousand of times to make any significant progress.
On top of that, ,their accelerations are easily in the thousands of gees (a grand frigate can pull 9000 gees or so as per Sabbat Martyr IIRC.. 9 AU in 91 minutes.)

With their sophisticated sensor scans they could cripple an Imperial Ship in a few volleys.

Shield Generators, Engines, Life Support. Boom.

All those components are inside the ship.Nice try.First they are going to have penetrate Void shields.

Lollerskates!

Disruptors>Void Shields. It's in the Bible.

The Borg can also adapt their weapons to pass through shields, so that's no big deal.

Problem is even if they magically adapt their weapons(which I doubt) there is a hull after that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm still trying to figure out exactly how the idea spread that the Borg become godlike, invincible and immune to a weapon once they figure out what it is. While it is true that the Borg seem to be able to resist Federation weapons quite well once they figure out what they are, there is no indication that this means they are completely immune to any and all weapons once they figure out what they are. Obviously, this is just another example of the Star Trek fan "superhero" mentality, as applied to another Star Trek concept (see previous section).

This myth probably stems from a superhero-style mentality on the part of some Star Trek fans. It is a mentality. Science is all about determining cause, effect, and limits. If we don't know how something works, we can at least derive lower and upper limits for it. If we cannot derive these limits from theory, we can generate preliminary limits by simply looking at what they've done or failed to do. In any case, we do not simply say that if we're not sure what the limit is, then there not be any limit at all!

I am guessing that the myth spread because the Borg were seemingly impervious to the attacks of a single Federation starship in "Q Who?". However, the clash between the scientific mentality and the superhero mentality again rears its ugly head. Rather than describe the ability to resist the weapons of a single Federation starship as a lower limit, the fans have instead decided that it is proof of godlike omnipotence! Why worry about limits when you can simply assume that "adaptation" is a "special power" and that they can adapt to anything? The most stunning example of this nonsense is the recurring trekkie claim that a Borg cube could shake off a Death Star superlaser blast once a previous cube had been destroyed, because it would have "transmitted enough information to the collective to make the other cubes immune." If you can read and understand the various multi-syllable words in this paragraph, then I am sure that you can see how obviously unscientific and oversimplistic the "superhero Borg" mentality is.

This myth is clearly refuted by the canon films and episodes. In STFC, we see that although a Borg cube can become seemingly impervious to the weapons of a single Federation starship, it cannot withstand the massed attack of dozens of Federation starships. This demonstrates that Borg "adapted shield" lower limits are somewhere above the firepower of a GCS and below the massed firepower of a fleet containing dozens of Federation starships. We can also see Borg cubes being blasted into fragments by Species 8472 bio-ships and destroyed by simple planetary debris in "Scorpion". And of course, we all know that Borg drones are helpless against any sort of physical attack, whether it's the claws of Species 8472, the bullets of Picard's tommy-gun in STFC, a well-thrown elbow, or one of Worf's various artfully sculpted slicin' and dicin' toys.

Hey gang... thought I might jump in here for a second and note that according to this useful tool: http://www.merzo.net/

Clicking on the -10 tab shows the relative sizes of the ships. Note the comparative size of the COBRA to the Shadow/Vorlons and the comparative size of the Retribution class to the Borg. While possibly a threat to the escort classes (and below), I'm not sure the Vorlons/Shadows have the firepower to threaten the bigger craft.

Re: The Borg... The cube has the advantage in high speed combat. If it tractor-beams ANYTHING, its advantage is lost. I'm fairly sure the projectile ordinance from an Imperial Capital ship would probably one-shot the cube, considering the Enterprise's puny torpedoes could damage them.

The Borg don't care about the hull.

Their cutting beams go right through pretty much any type of ships that are out there. And if that doesn't work, the Graviton Torpedoes will.

They also, now that I'm thinking about it, have Shield Disruptors so we need to factor that in to their ability to get through the void shields.

Also, let's try not to pontificate on a scientific level when discussing battles between imaginary space men.

keezus wrote:Hey gang... thought I might jump in here for a second and note that according to this useful tool: http://www.merzo.net/

Clicking on the -10 tab shows the relative sizes of the ships. Note the comparative size of the COBRA to the Shadow/Vorlons and the comparative size of the Retribution class to the Borg. While possibly a threat to the escort classes (and below), I'm not sure the Vorlons/Shadows have the firepower to threaten the bigger craft.

Re: The Borg... The cube has the advantage in high speed combat. If it tractor-beams ANYTHING, its advantage is lost. I'm fairly sure the projectile ordinance from an Imperial Capital ship would probably one-shot the cube, considering the Enterprise's puny torpedoes could damage them.

Finnaly a reasonable person.

No Borg would not work again. Their ships are like flys against a FREAKING SUN! The imperium being the sun. As the star trek universe has no weapon that can pierce warp shields and all the imperium has to do is send in a Ship and turn on the self destruct button. Borg weapons may be able to cut through steel. But not adamantium. Which is 5x more denser than titanium.
The IoM has no weapons that the borg could absorb. One shot from a lance. Dead.
And not only that but only one race of beings could f--king rape the imperium of man...
The Reapers!
I mean seriously! Mass effect ships are 2 kilometres long. And they get owned. By a freaking space octopus!
Nothing in the 40k universe Could resist 500,000 of these bastards. as they are AI's and their armor is almost impenetrable.

Also guys i have been noticing you guys have been like freaking attacking each other with clubs. Please calm down, its not like the world revolves around this discussion. Please be more considerate and more thoughtful in your posts please.
Funny how they forgot about the Apocalypse and the Emperors class ship..

Asherian Command wrote:No Borg would not work again. Their ships are like flys against a FREAKING SUN! The imperium being the sun. As the star trek universe has no weapon that can pierce warp shields and all the imperium has to do is send in a Ship and turn on the self destruct button. Borg weapons may be able to cut through steel. But not adamantium. Which is 5x more denser than titanium.
The IoM has no weapons that the borg could absorb. One shot from a lance. Dead.
And not only that but only one race of beings could f--king rape the imperium of man...
The Reapers!
I mean seriously! Mass effect ships are 2 kilometres long. And they get owned. By a freaking space octopus!
Nothing in the 40k universe Could resist 500,000 of these bastards. as they are AI's and their armor is almost impenetrable.

Also guys i have been noticing you guys have been like freaking attacking each other with clubs. Please calm down, its not like the world revolves around this discussion. Please be more considerate and more thoughtful in your posts please.

Reapers have less firepower than IOM,probably in double digit gigatons or triple digit gigatons.

keezus wrote:Hey gang... thought I might jump in here for a second and note that according to this useful tool: http://www.merzo.net/

Re: The Borg... The cube has the advantage in high speed combat. If it tractor-beams ANYTHING, its advantage is lost. I'm fairly sure the projectile ordinance from an Imperial Capital ship would probably one-shot the cube, considering the Enterprise's puny torpedoes could damage them.

What's puny about Photon Torpedoes?

They're pretty brutal, man. Antimatter makes a big boom.

Asherian Command wrote:Also guys i have been noticing you guys have been like freaking attacking each other with clubs. Please calm down, its not like the world revolves around this discussion. Please be more considerate and more thoughtful in your posts please.

I disagree. I thought we were getting along quite nicely.

Ivan you mad bro?

IvanTih wrote:[
This myth probably stems from a superhero-style mentality on the part of some Star Trek fans. It is a mentality. Science is all about determining cause, effect, and limits. If we don't know how something works, we can at least derive lower and upper limits for it. If we cannot derive these limits from theory, we can generate preliminary limits by simply looking at what they've done or failed to do. In any case, we do not simply say that if we're not sure what the limit is, then there not be any limit at all!

I am guessing that the myth spread because the Borg were seemingly impervious to the attacks of a single Federation starship in "Q Who?". However, the clash between the scientific mentality and the superhero mentality again rears its ugly head. Rather than describe the ability to resist the weapons of a single Federation starship as a lower limit, the fans have instead decided that it is proof of godlike omnipotence! Why worry about limits when you can simply assume that "adaptation" is a "special power" and that they can adapt to anything? The most stunning example of this nonsense is the recurring trekkie claim that a Borg cube could shake off a Death Star superlaser blast once a previous cube had been destroyed, because it would have "transmitted enough information to the collective to make the other cubes immune." If you can read and understand the various multi-syllable words in this paragraph, then I am sure that you can see how obviously unscientific and oversimplistic the "superhero Borg" mentality is.

Working through some issues there? Slick side attack, I am impressed. Can't win the argument go for the personal attack.

IvanTih wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:No Borg would not work again. Their ships are like flys against a FREAKING SUN! The imperium being the sun. As the star trek universe has no weapon that can pierce warp shields and all the imperium has to do is send in a Ship and turn on the self destruct button. Borg weapons may be able to cut through steel. But not adamantium. Which is 5x more denser than titanium.
The IoM has no weapons that the borg could absorb. One shot from a lance. Dead.
And not only that but only one race of beings could f--king rape the imperium of man...
The Reapers!
I mean seriously! Mass effect ships are 2 kilometres long. And they get owned. By a freaking space octopus!
Nothing in the 40k universe Could resist 500,000 of these bastards. as they are AI's and their armor is almost impenetrable.

Also guys i have been noticing you guys have been like freaking attacking each other with clubs. Please calm down, its not like the world revolves around this discussion. Please be more considerate and more thoughtful in your posts please.

Reapers have less firepower than IOM,probably in double digit gigatons or triple digit gigatons.

O.o
Really? Because they blow up entire planets With one reaper.
Plus I also noticed at the ship website that there was no Emperor Class ship or Apocalypse class ship. Which is freaking huge.