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Lets face it the internet is here stronger then ever in our lives and as much as people want to controll it its not going to happen anytime soon... Same applies to internet based sales... Its a revolution to the traditional model of driving to store browse stuff fill your shopping cart pack your car and drive home... busy people try to save money and time and just spend some minutes doing all that online cheaper and faster.

Will the traditional commerce die? Nope but only the ones that give you a added value and good service will have a slim chance... In our hobby its even less complex... You can buy diferent miniatures ranges from hundreds of manufacturers in no time and your brick store only carries a hand full of the more popular ranges... THe distintion of store and club needs to be more clear because you dont need local stores if you have clubs.

If I were to rely on the rare stores here I would only collect GW or fow... I would not be in this hobby anymore... so yeah the value of a Brick store that doesnt add anything to your reality is overrated in my personal prespective.

On this matter, sure some manufacturers want to limit the freedom of internet sales... the problem is they can only limit THEIR products and are opening a door for people to leave a look elsewere.

TalonZahn wrote:
Which is why I don't understand how BF can pitch a fit with any discount MG wants to give. If they rely on volumn sales to cover their deep discounts, that's on them, not BF. BF already got their money as they decided that they got what they needed to get when they sold their items to MG at their price.

Talon...I dis-agree with what BF did but I understand why they want to maintain a price point by controling how much their distributors sell their products for. They need to protect their channels - 'someone' can dump (discount and sell at unprofitable prices) to eliminate competition hoping to the control the market afterward (assuming the dumper survives). Good distribution contracts require the manufacturer to take action, of some sort, to prevent that i.e. since you (the mfg) control supply it is easier for you to stop dumpers than me (distributor). Dumping often destroys markets and hurts consumers.

There is strong incentive for high-price good manufacturers to maintain that their product's price points...if I remember a few years ago Dooney and Burke was actually buying their 'used' handbags off of eBay to control the supply and maintain a higher price point overall.

Also I had ordered BF from Mael and, per their policy, it was shipped 'free'. That saved me another $4 in shipping to the US. So I know we have been discussing MRP, but that is a complimentary discount that has the same affect as offering more than 10% off. That is esspecially true when the pound went down...I ordered from Mael becasue the overall cost was typically 10%-15% less than Warstore let alone versus a LGS.

My 2 cents...Since BF seems to allow other distributors to do similar things it is shutting Mael down for...I suspect this is they are trying to eliminate an 'over-influencial' distributor in a certain market. This could be good for us (consumers) because Mael now has strong incentive to find and sell substitute products - this will not bankrupt BF but will increase our purchasing power. IMO it is a dumb move on BF's part unless Mael was dumping.

Sheck2 wrote:
Also I had ordered BF from Mael and, per their policy, it was shipped 'free'. That saved me another $4 in shipping to the US. So I know we have been discussing MRP, but that is a complimentary discount that has the same affect as offering more than 10% off. That is esspecially true when the pound went down...I ordered from Mael becasue the overall cost was typically 10%-15% less than Warstore let alone versus a LGS.

While this is true in some instances, I've found Mael's prices to be mostly a couple of bucks less than I could get at the warstore here in the US. Maybe on some items, at the right time, you can save more (and I know for those in Australia/NZ its way better all the time). However, when ordering, you still need to deal with the credit card 3+% charge for foreign currency transaction, and any other fees that the cc companies want to tack on. That cuts into the 'savings' of ordering from overseas.

Further, how much of an impact does Mael have worldwide? Are they anywhere close to being the 'biggest and only' purveyor of any minis on the net? I know a lot of people who don't buy online, or if they do from select vendors, and would never order overseas. So they're stuck with US vendors.

Mael is brought up on Dakka quite a bit, but they're only one vendor of many that sell BF stuff. I doubt think their activities actually would cause BF that much grief, or cause LGSs to go out of business (although they might be violating their contract with BF, but that's another issue).

Frankly, this incident caused me to sign up for the Old Glory Army for my FOW armies (just starting), where I'll get 40% off Command Decision stuff, and a tank/halftrack will cost me $6 rather than $12 from BF. I'll still use Warstore primarily, and Mael every now and again...

Ulver, I already addressed your points. Go back and read.

WUWU, your argument is a strawman.

BF got what BF wanted to get from the retailers. It doesn't hurt them at all. If anyone got hurt it *might* be the smaller stores you reference.

If the smaller store stops carrying BF as a result of MG's actions, there is a slight chance BF might lose a tiny amount in the short term, but another store will come along and replace them. However, that's the life of the free market. Stores come and go all the time.

Compete or GTFO.

The reason Wal Mart can sell a can of beans for 40 cents and the Mom & Pop store can't is because Wal Mart can dictate a better price from the distributor as they buy 10,000 cans of beans and the other store buys 20. It doesn't work like that in the Hobby world. MG doesn't dictate to BF what they will pay based of MG's volumn of sales. BF tells everyone what they want and you're either in or out.

I can see I'm pissing uphill here, so I won't continue to rage against the dying light.

NAVARRO wrote:Lets face it the internet is here stronger then ever in our lives and as much as people want to controll it its not going to happen anytime soon... Same applies to internet based sales... Its a revolution to the traditional model of driving to store browse stuff fill your shopping cart pack your car and drive home... busy people try to save money and time and just spend some minutes doing all that online cheaper and faster.

Will the traditional commerce die? Nope but only the ones that give you a added value and good service will have a slim chance... In our hobby its even less complex... You can buy diferent miniatures ranges from hundreds of manufacturers in no time and your brick store only carries a hand full of the more popular ranges... THe distintion of store and club needs to be more clear because you dont need local stores if you have clubs.

If I were to rely on the rare stores here I would only collect GW or fow... I would not be in this hobby anymore... so yeah the value of a Brick store that doesnt add anything to your reality is overrated in my personal prespective.

On this matter, sure some manufacturers want to limit the freedom of internet sales... the problem is they can only limit THEIR products and are opening a door for people to leave a look elsewere.

Excellent points. I don't know why so many small niche manufacturers seem to think the internet is bad for them. For some reason they always seem to think that a larger market reach is bad, having new customers finding their stuff is bad, and/or having people figure out the cheapest way to serve their ultimate customers is bad. I guess you really can't say BF and GW are alone in this though, as many larger companies can't seem to wrap their heads around how the internet works. Like Borders with their web site that had the same prices as the store. "All the price, none of the instant gratification!" Of course, large companies are usually not the ones who manage to be on the cutting edge of things, so I am not surprised.

I guess part of the problem is just getting your stuff out there. I mean, there are many EU companies for minis I would never even have heard of if it wasn't for Cool Mini or Not's store, as even the Warstore doesn't import them. It seems to me small mini-companies would be banging down their door trying to get their products featured on the sites of big online stores, even as special order products. Hopefully the current situation is just the industry going through growing pains to learn the new ways of doing things, and 3-4 years down the road we will all be getting great prices on all sorts of awesome models.

Maybe this thread should be moved to Dakka Discussions. Don't see any more news here atm.

Probably a good idea.

WUWU wrote:Frankly, I think both companies are in the wrong here, and I wont be patronizing either in the future.

Sadly, in our consumer world, by refusing to patronize either you are not harming the companies (well maybe minimally). Instead, you are merely hurting your own pocket as you will be spending more on miniatures than the rest of us.

TalonZahn wrote:If I want to sell 1 item at 10% off (to make $3.70 profit off that one item) or 1 item at 25% off (to make $2.20 profit off that one item) and then hope people buy twice as much, that's my business. It just means I need to sell more.

First I don't agree with BF's mode of doing business and how they've acted in this instance.


At the same time I can understand why they've done it. For two reasons:
1. Wargames can be perceived as a small market. If one buys from Maelstrom and not their FLGS, then it could put the FLGS out of business, hence they would complain to the manufacturer, BF. It does amount to price fixing to cut supply
2. Selling goods below costs can be perceived to devalue the goods; customers may not be used to paying the higher price hence will only buy at the lower price

both of them are spurious and involve gouging the customer. Then again I'm from Australia where we are overcharged 40% more for GW product. Maelstrom is the way of the future; you can't keep the world small enough.

severedblue wrote: If one buys from Maelstrom and not their FLGS, then it could put the FLGS out of business,

And if one buys from this FLGS and not that FLGS, the same thing could happen. That's sort of how the retail industry works. Telling one store that they can't sell your product because it might cause other stores to not sell as much is nonsense. It's on par with the old Quartermaster's joke about not being able to issue you with the last hat, because then he won't have one when someone needs one.

Frankly, Maelstrom would appear to be proof positive that discounting, internet-based retailing and providing a gaming venue can all work hand in hand. It would be nice to see more businesses following suit.

insaniak wrote:And if one buys from this FLGS and not that FLGS, the same thing could happen. That's sort of how the retail industry works. Telling one store that they can't sell your product because it might cause other stores to not sell as much is nonsense. It's on par with the old Quartermaster's joke about not being able to issue you with the last hat, because then he won't have one when someone needs one.

Recently two big book chains, Angus and Robertson and Borders Australia, went into administration. The reason cited was both high tariffs on these book sellers, high prices and having to pay for large retail frontage for people to test-read books. As an Australian you'd know

They are competing with Internet UK book stores that charge 40% less with no shipping.

It's the same with GW miniatures in Australia... how can the local FLGS compete if they are charging 40% more than Maelstrom on sale, and Malestrom doesn't charge shipping? They can't.

The playing field isn't level once you factor in the Internet. It's good for the customer because I've bought more miniatures now than I would have if it cost 40% more. I've just bought my quota of Eldar from England instead of the local FLGS. And I can't visit Maelstorm as an FLGS.




I'm sure if enough FLGS call BF and have a cry BF will have to do something about it. Better to throw Maelstrom under a bus than to lose all its other distributors, I'm sure they've reasoned.

Alpharius wrote:

Grot 6 wrote:Putting Walmart into this conversation is like putting a shark in your goldfish bowel.

Yeah, I'm guessing that wouldn't end well for the goldfish...

I was more worried about the bowl......

severedblue wrote:It's the same with GW miniatures in Australia... how can the local FLGS compete if they are charging 40% more than Maelstrom on sale, and Malestrom doesn't charge shipping? They can't.

That's debateable... but also not Maelstrom's fault. It's the fault of GW, for deciding to price their product 40% higher than most of the rest of the world.

But my point was that local game stores can compete. They just have to make up the shortfall somewhere else (if they want to match that sort of price) or offer some incentive to shop there instead (if they don't, or can't due to contractual agreements).

Loss-leading is risky, and it's certainly understandable that stores would be reluctant to go down that road, particularly since the market for other ranges is so limited here as well. But by and large, at least from my experience, Australian gaming stores don't bother much with the latter either...

severedblue wrote: Recently two big book chains, Angus and Robertson and Borders Australia, went into administration. The reason cited was both high tariffs on these book sellers, high prices and having to pay for large retail frontage for people to test-read books.

In Borders case, this is by no means confined to Australia, and B&N is holding on, so some of those reasons may not hold water...

TalonZahn wrote:

WUWU, your argument is a strawman

...

Compete or GTFO.

No, it isn't. Your understanding of a strawman argument is wrong.


Competition is great when people are playing the same game. The fact of the matter is MG was acting outside of the terms of their contract with BF... they were cheating while everyone else was playing by the rules. That isn't fair competition, and is a perfect encapsulation of why most libertarian "free market" economics is utter failure.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Foxtale wrote:

WUWU wrote:Frankly, I think both companies are in the wrong here, and I wont be patronizing either in the future.

Sadly, in our consumer world, by refusing to patronize either you are not harming the companies (well maybe minimally). Instead, you are merely hurting your own pocket as you will be spending more on miniatures than the rest of us.

I disagree. Because of this situation coming to light, I will never play FoW, either with another companies minis, second hand acquisitions, or anything else. Both companies have demonstrated poor business practices in front of everyone to see, and in my opinion patronizing either company would be wrong at this point. I have the choice to just play an entirely different gaming system. The loyalty to Games workshop, Battlefront... It's an illusion at best.

The gaming world should be studied in universities world round, in my opinion. I can't think of another market that exists, where such rampant brand loyalty exists... where two companies can publicly debate who can extract the highest margin, all in the name of customer service. And the whole time the consumers are arguing over who they can give their money too first.

The only time I care about supporting the local FLGS is if you use their store and tables to play your games. If you don't go there, then I don't care where you get your stuff. If you're going to play there, don't buy everything on-line, spend some actually money and support the place you're playing and hanging out at.

Ignore me, nothing to see here. Moving right along.

ChrisWWII wrote:I gues this hasn't been presented yet, but here is Maelstrom's statement regarding this issue.

Er we have been debating this since about the third page - kind of what the thread is about really - I take it you haven't read through then?

My bad then, apologies..... No, I haven't been following it, and I have screwed up as such. x.X

That's OK - I forgive you.

I'm still really really dismayed by that piss poor letter writing by all involved.

[However somewhere over on another window - Second order of much reduced stuff placed with MG]

All right. This is slightly annoying. I'd like to correct a few misconceptions here.

First of all, do not be under the impression that Maelstrom have "abused" the 40% discount that is only available to bricks and mortar stores, because we most certainly have not.

When I began trading with Battlefront, we were told that we could only sell their products if we had a bricks and mortar store. Bear in mind this was 2005, when our webstore began.

In 2006 we moved to a shop with a back room in Mansfield, and as I had little money and had no staff I could only afford to have myself in the back room and no shop. In 2006, Gordon Davidson visited me and told me he would be happy to supply me because he could see "I was getting the shop ready" or words to that effect. So I began stocking Battlefront and trading their products online. The shop duly came in 2007, when I could afford staff.

Bear in mind that Peter Simunovich, the main man behind Battlefront, visited us in 2007.

In 2009 we moved to Matlock Mill in Mansfield, with a huge gaming hall (120 players on 6' x 4' tables), a bar and restaurant and a very large retail store which is (sorry, was) fully stocked with Battlefront products, amongst others of course. Gordon, John-Paul Brisigotti and John Matthews have visited our venue, some of them on many occasions. So it's not as if they are not aware of what we are.

So I hold no truck with anybody who seems to think we've fooled or deceived Battlefront somehow into giving us this "40% discount". We most certainly have not. All of their directors and management are aware that we are a webstore, bricks and mortar store and gaming venue.

Regarding the terms and conditions of our contract, well - there is certainly no "if you are primarily a webstore, you can't have that 40% discount" it was simply "you must have a bricks and mortar store".

Whether others have a different contract, I could not say, but our contract has certainly not changed - and if it has, they haven't sent me a copy and I have not signed up to it.

In short, you need to believe me when I say the reasons they have given in their solicitors letter for dropping us are spurious.

In reality they don't really have to give a reason. They could have simply said "we don't want to sell to you any more". Instead they have gone down this "webstore" route, which is frankly ridiculous.

Cheers

Rob Lane
MD, Maelstrom Games

Rob, very decent of you to come on here and clear things up. Personally speaking, I know who I would rather trust; having dealt with Maelstrom before, I can attest to their professionalism. As I said earlier, it seems BF have behaved very shabbily here - trying to do a bit of a GW and act all heavy handed. I think this will seriously damage their reputation.

Much apreciated for your clarification Rob and glad to see you here on dakka

Yes its Battlefront choice not to provide you with the real reasons of their actions, but since all your clients and also FOW fans ( that are not that few) are left without any explanation I believe its poor behaviour from BF towards you and their fans.

Was very interesting to read your very sucessfull progress as a business and for all the people that try to paint you has some kind of greedy corporation thats going to kill all brick stores I think your actions and investments ( a huge store and huge gamming hall) do speak for itself... I mean why would you invest so much in the "hobby" it it was just a business for you?

Again thanks for the clarification and congrats by creating a sucessfull business model and showing that Hobby stores can have a bigger role worldwide.

Hey, I want in on some of this sucking up, too!!!

As for Rob, I think you and BF need to take the fight back to the Sparta pit.

One day, out of the blue, you just end up getting hatemail from some cat you hardly even know? How does that work?

How did this thing really come about? I know there has to be something more to it, because if not, you need to be on the phone to the head office and talk to the HMIC about that crazy E mail that you got from that guy. Is he speaking for BF like that? If so, one really has to question how they think business really works.


Fight the power and all that stuff.

The fact that the cutting of MG has made it to the website should be evidence enough that the HMIC @ BF is well aware of what has transpired. I think that he was also cc'd into the email ping-pong.

I'd been vaguely intrigued by Flames of War and had for a while considered moving over to it as a backup-option if GW ever really annoyed me (more than usual), but nah, not any more.

Maelstrom, on the other hand, I will continue to buy from, because they are awesome, and because they very visibly invest their profits in becoming more awesome. I'm really looking forward to gaming in the Eye of the Storm next month for the UK Grand Tournament (and hoping they run another Space Hulk tourney sometime too).

insaniak wrote:
But my point was that local game stores can compete. They just have to make up the shortfall somewhere else (if they want to match that sort of price) or offer some incentive to shop there instead (if they don't, or can't due to contractual agreements).

Loss-leading is risky, and it's certainly understandable that stores would be reluctant to go down that road, particularly since the market for other ranges is so limited here as well. But by and large, at least from my experience, Australian gaming stores don't bother much with the latter either...

Are you sure that the market is big enough to make up for the shortfall?? Is the market big enough? I wouldn't say selling small amounts of paint is where the profit is. It would be like Borders who have people reading books and buying coffee instead of buying books in quantity and leaving the store... their business model wasn't sustainable :(
sure creative business models can be used to make money, but those are anchillary; if you don't sell kits you are ripping the heart out of the business. It reminds me of the Internet Cafe near my university that closed down its gaming and card tables that the regulars used to put more PCs in. It's a business, not a charity, so their investment and innovation will go where the money is.








I remember talking to a local FLGS that carried GW products, who was quite mature about his business. His is the flagship store that he's franchised out, and his store differs from the franchisers because he offers consistently 10% discount on all the stock he carries, even GW (others in that group don't offer that discount). So yes he can compete by virtue of having 10% discount with pickup. He said he was making enough to stay afloat and lift comfortably. But not enough to be prosperous.

I also noticed that my local GW battle bunker has been converted into a one-man operation, for a big shop front.

severedblue wrote:Are you sure that the market is big enough to make up for the shortfall?? Is the market big enough? I wouldn't say selling small amounts of paint is where the profit is. It would be like Borders who have people reading books and buying coffee instead of buying books in quantity and leaving the store... their business model wasn't sustainable :(

It's a messy issue, although I suspect that a large part of the problem over the years has come from not-particularly-business-savvy gamers thinking that running a games store would be easy, and opening stores in areas that really don't have the base to support them.

A well set-up store in the right area, run by someone who knows what they are doing? I absolutely think there is enough of a market to be selling at a discount and making up the shortfall running events and selling food.

The discount doesn't have to be as high as you can get from overseas... you make up for a certain amount of higher price by having stock on the shelves (another failing of most of the games stores I've been into over the years) for instant gratification.

sure creative business models can be used to make money, but those are anchillary; if you don't sell kits you are ripping the heart out of the business.

The kits still get sold, and the manufacturer still makes the same amount of money, so the 'heart' of the business remains. At the end of the day, I guess what I'm really suggesting is that the brick and mortar retail arm of that business is probably going to do better in this day and age shifting their focus to being based on running events rather than selling merchandise. Have the merchandise, certainly... because even if the prices are higher, you'll shift some of it.

But ultimately, if you can't compete 1-on-1 with another business (whether that other business is internet based or not makes no difference) and as a result your business is suffering, you have two realistic options: complain about it, or change the focus of your business to make your money from elsewhere.


It's probably a good time to point out that this is all armchair theorising and my personal opinion, not intended in any way as an iron-clad statement of the way the universe works.

insaniak wrote:you have two realistic options: complain about it, or change the focus of your business to make your money from elsewhere.

Something tells me that BFs other distributors did the first one, had a whinge and hence BF threw Maelstorm under the bus.