Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Shenra wrote:COM targets Psykers

Does it really?

Quote that page and I think this is done.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:/wall o' text

Walrus, I agree with most of your points, however there are a few I have to point out and how they are relevant to the CoM argument.

I can concede GK's BoP is an ever more specific definition of what a psyker is than in C:WH(I do have a small argument against that as well); although I am quite stoked that GK vehicles still fall under than definition and will auto be "Perils of the Warp'd" by Hammer of the Witches as I thought earlier in another thread.

Both the Stake Crossbow and the Power Stake have essentially two different profiles for wounding either psykers or non-psykers. I agree that both should wound the GK squad with BoP using the "anti-psyker" profile, but disagree that normal wound allocation would be used because of BoP and what it says for attacks that specifically target psykers, and thus the wound from such weapons should IMO be placed against the Justicar first or random GK X if the Justicar is already dead per BoP.

The heart of the matter is with "Hammer of the Witches" and CoM and what happens when the test for both is failed.

I think we can ALL agree that a GK BoP squad having passed either test is ignored for the rest of the effects of either HotW or CoM. Having reread HotW and in light of accepting BoP as a more specific definition of psyker than in the WH codex, my following arguments only seem to apply to CoM for what its worth.

However, it is the failure of such a test that causes the discussion we are all having. Neither HotW nor CoM is an attack per say, but that is not my argument, others can take from that what they will and run with it. Both just force a Ldr test. I think we can all agree that unless the model is already dead, the Ldr test is going to be using the Justicar's Ldr. If he passes, great move on. If not however...HotW and CoM are worded very similarly (switch D6 Psykers with those within 3D6 and pass a Ldr test or suffer PotW or be remove from play). Once failed, for both HotW and CoM would remove (at least) the Justicar (Having suffered PotW and having only 1W and unless passes a re-rolled Inv Sv if they even have one or per CoM). Now that each has resolved once we go to check again until either ALL psykers within 3D6 or the nearest D6 pass a Ldr test or bad things happen. But wait! There are now a Psyker unit of 9 that is still within 3D6 that has failed their Ldr test that are still on the table. CoM now says I have to remove them.

What it boils down to as far as I see it is this. Either a GK squad counts as the is one psyker, as BoP states, and is removed as one per failing the Ldr test of CoM (being an attack or not; I see it as not really mattering either way) OR I don;t really have an 'or' as that's the only interpretation that I can reach that seems to follow the rules and break no rules. If CoM only affects the Justicar at first, then I could argue that CoM will then proceed to affect the rest of the squad (although with them being one psyker I don't see how it is not an all or nothing kind of deal) AND my HotW would continue to affect the same squad as well, but that seems to break both BoP of being only, one, a, singular psyker and HotW being only able to affect each psyker once per casting.

And now my wall of text is done.

I'll admit that I didn't read the full thread, because the first three pages were the same rehash, and when I checked page seven it hadn't changed.

I fully agree that the working is ambiguous and that there is more than one conclusive answer.

However, I really think that someone's gone looking for easter eggs. If you think that GW has implanted a piece of wargear to remove multiple units worth many times its cost, and are willing to argue your case vehemently, then you're definitely doing so.

That being said, if you play me, I'm perfectly willing to allow your CoM to affect my entire squads, provided you allow my Culexus Assassin to gain +2 shots for each grey knight model within 12", rather than each grey knight squad (plus those independent characters that have the "psyker" special rule) within 12". I think that I would call that a fair trade, and under those circumstances, I doubt that anyone could stand up to my S5 AP1 12" A44 animus speculum.

Care to meet me on a table somewhere? Under your interpretation, anyone who fails to take the Culexus Assassin has made a major strategic error while building his list.

Tiderian wrote:That being said, if you play me, I'm perfectly willing to allow your CoM to affect my entire squads, provided you allow my Culexus Assassin to gain +2 shots for each grey knight model within 12",

The unit is a psyker.
The assassin would be near a psyker.

Being near a psyker gives him just a bonus.

Not multiple bonuses.

Evil Lamp 6 wrote:
However, it is the failure of such a test that causes the discussion we are all having. Neither HotW nor CoM is an attack per say, but that is not my argument, others can take from that what they will and run with it. Both just force a Ldr test. I think we can all agree that unless the model is already dead, the Ldr test is going to be using the Justicar's Ldr. If he passes, great move on. If not however...HotW and CoM are worded very similarly (switch D6 Psykers with those within 3D6 and pass a Ldr test or suffer PotW or be remove from play). Once failed, for both HotW and CoM would remove (at least) the Justicar (Having suffered PotW and having only 1W and unless passes a re-rolled Inv Sv if they even have one or per CoM). Now that each has resolved once we go to check again until either ALL psykers within 3D6 or the nearest D6 pass a Ldr test or bad things happen. But wait! There are now a Psyker unit of 9 that is still within 3D6 that has failed their Ldr test that are still on the table. CoM now says I have to remove them.

The bolded part is what I do not agree with. CoM states that a psyker must either pass a Ld test or go mad. The unit in question has already tested, and failed, but because BoP redirects attacks aimed at psykers to the justicar-equivalent (nevermind if it's an attack or not, I assume it is for my argument, as that's my position), only the justicar-equivalent is removed. Thus, when CoM finishes you've only got psykers who either passed the Ld test or survived by virtue of a special rule which is more specific than your CoM, in this case BoP.

That's how I see it.

Evil Lamp 6 wrote:
I can concede GK's BoP is an ever more specific definition of what a psyker is than in C:WH(I do have a small argument against that as well); although I am quite stoked that GK vehicles still fall under than definition and will auto be "Perils of the Warp'd" by Hammer of the Witches as I thought earlier in another thread.

I hate to be the bringer of bad news, but as per C:GK pg. 21, vehicles with the "Psychic Pilot" special rule only counts as psykers for psychic tests and psychic hoods. So no auto-glancing crossbow (and no removing them with CoM either, GW learned from the furioso! *shock*)

AlmightyWalrus wrote: but because BoP redirects attacks targeting psykers to the justicar-equivalent

kirsanth wrote:Are you seriously saying the Doom of Malan'tai must use Cataclysm on a unit affected by Spirit Leech?

kirsanth wrote:
The assassin would be near a psyker.

Being near a psyker gives him just a bonus.

Not multiple bonuses.

Please check your codex. I'm pretty sure that he gets +2 to the assault value of the animus speculum for _each_ psyker within 12".

Tiderian wrote:I'm pretty sure that he gets +2 to the assault value of the animus speculum for _each_ psyker within 12".

It does. Now check yours.
And the unit is A psyker.

As in one.

kirsanth wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:Those specify what they affect, thus the units affected are the targets,

Untrue. Never must the DoM target a model or a unit to use Spirit Leech.

It is entirely possible they meant it to target something, thus following all the restrictions that entails, but I have not read that anywhere.

Editing to add:
Are you seriously saying the Doom of Malan'tai must use Cataclysm on a unit affected by Spirit Leech?

Since when is Spirit Leech a shooting attack?

kirsanth wrote:

Tiderian wrote:That being said, if you play me, I'm perfectly willing to allow your CoM to affect my entire squads, provided you allow my Culexus Assassin to gain +2 shots for each grey knight model within 12",

The unit is a psyker.
The assassin would be near a psyker.

Being near a psyker gives him just a bonus.

Not multiple bonuses.

"For every psyker within 12" of the Culexus Assassin, add +1 to the animus speculum's profile".


O RLY?

Evil Lamp 6 wrote:
However, it is the failure of such a test that causes the discussion we are all having. Neither HotW nor CoM is an attack per say, but that is not my argument, others can take from that what they will and run with it. Both just force a Ldr test. I think we can all agree that unless the model is already dead, the Ldr test is going to be using the Justicar's Ldr. If he passes, great move on. If not however...HotW and CoM are worded very similarly (switch D6 Psykers with those within 3D6 and pass a Ldr test or suffer PotW or be remove from play). Once failed, for both HotW and CoM would remove (at least) the Justicar (Having suffered PotW and having only 1W and unless passes a re-rolled Inv Sv if they even have one or per CoM). Now that each has resolved once we go to check again until either ALL psykers within 3D6 or the nearest D6 pass a Ldr test or bad things happen. But wait! There are now a Psyker unit of 9 that is still within 3D6 that has failed their Ldr test that are still on the table. CoM now says I have to remove them.

The bolded part is what I do not agree with. CoM states that a psyker must either pass a Ld test or go mad. The unit in question has already tested, and failed, but because BoP redirects attacks aimed at psykers to the justicar-equivalent (nevermind if it's an attack or not, I assume it is for my argument, as that's my position), only the justicar-equivalent is removed. Thus, when CoM finishes you've only got psykers who either passed the Ld test or survived by virtue of a special rule which is more specific than your CoM, in this case BoP.

That's how I see it.

Evil Lamp 6 wrote:
I can concede GK's BoP is an ever more specific definition of what a psyker is than in C:WH(I do have a small argument against that as well); although I am quite stoked that GK vehicles still fall under than definition and will auto be "Perils of the Warp'd" by Hammer of the Witches as I thought earlier in another thread.

I hate to be the bringer of bad news, but as per C:GK pg. 21, vehicles with the "Psychic Pilot" special rule only counts as psykers for psychic tests and psychic hoods. So no auto-glancing crossbow (and no removing them with CoM either, GW learned from the furioso! *shock*)

AlmightyWalrus wrote:Since when is Spirit Leech a shooting attack?

You said it targets units.

kirsanth wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:Since when is Spirit Leech a shooting attack?

You said it targets units.

Just because something targets something doesn't make it a shooting attack. I am still of the opinion that it counts as an attack, however.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Evil Lamp 6 wrote:
TEXT CoM now says I have to remove them.

The bolded part is what I do not agree with. CoM states that a psyker must either pass a Ld test or go mad. The unit in question has already tested, and failed, but because BoP redirects attacks aimed at psykers to the justicar-equivalent (nevermind if it's an attack or not, I assume it is for my argument, as that's my position), only the justicar-equivalent is removed. Thus, when CoM finishes you've only got psykers who either passed the Ld test or survived by virtue of a special rule which is more specific than your CoM, in this case BoP.

That's how I see it.

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one Walrus. I see the unit as one psyker and one psyker only and I do not see BoP protecting them from being removed from a failed CoM test (and I don't even plat DE! ) As I said earlier, it clearly needs a FAQ, and although I don't agree with it, I'm more than willing to bet it will be FAQ'd in your favor.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Evil Lamp 6 wrote:
I can concede GK's BoP is an ever more specific definition of what a psyker is than in C:WH(I do have a small argument against that as well); although I am quite stoked that GK vehicles still fall under than definition and will auto be "Perils of the Warp'd" by Hammer of the Witches as I thought earlier in another thread.

I hate to be the bringer of bad news, but as per C:GK pg. 21, vehicles with the "Psychic Pilot" special rule only counts as psykers for psychic tests and psychic hoods. So no auto-glancing crossbow (and no removing them with CoM either, GW learned from the furioso! *shock*)

I can't say I agree with your interpretation of "Psychic Pilot" as unlike BoP, "Psychic Pilot" doesn't override what the WH Codex says is a psyker or not (IMO of course). It also makes me wonder why have the rule at all in the WH Codex if every example it could attempt to apply to seems to have more specific rules anyway. I'll see what better argument I can come up with when I have more time.

Evil Lamp 6 wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Evil Lamp 6 wrote:
TEXT CoM now says I have to remove them.

The bolded part is what I do not agree with. CoM states that a psyker must either pass a Ld test or go mad. The unit in question has already tested, and failed, but because BoP redirects attacks aimed at psykers to the justicar-equivalent (nevermind if it's an attack or not, I assume it is for my argument, as that's my position), only the justicar-equivalent is removed. Thus, when CoM finishes you've only got psykers who either passed the Ld test or survived by virtue of a special rule which is more specific than your CoM, in this case BoP.

That's how I see it.

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one Walrus. I see the unit as one psyker and one psyker only and I do not see BoP protecting them from being removed from a failed CoM test (and I don't even plat DE! ) As I said earlier, it clearly needs a FAQ, and although I don't agree with it, I'm more than willing to bet it will be FAQ'd in your favor.

Let's agree to disagree then.

Evil Lamp 6 wrote:
I can't say I agree with your interpretation of "Psychic Pilot" as unlike BoP, "Psychic Pilot" doesn't override what the WH Codex says is a psyker or not (IMO of course). It also makes me wonder why have the rule at all in the WH Codex if every example it could attempt to apply to seems to have more specific rules anyway. I'll see what better argument I can come up with when I have more time.

Well, it does say that they're only psykers for psychic tests and hoods. Thus, while they would normally count as psykers as per the WH definition, they have a more specific rule saying that this particular psyker doesn't count, just as with BoP. Regarding the bolded part, the Codex is 2 Editions old, cut GW some slack

AlmightyWalrus wrote: I am still of the opinion that it counts as an attack, however.

To be fair, I am basically in agreement with this part, although I am not certain it has any bearing on any rules.

Unless it actually targets something it simply does not matter though.

I understand you think you are targeted because this conversation affects you, but it is not true.

Ya, I can not see this argued any other way except when CoM is used, it targets every psyker in range. When CoM hits a GK model, the BoP kicks in and says that it targets either the Justicar or a random GK in the unit. This entire unit is now one psyker. It makes the test.

CoM stating that every psyker takes a test or goes mad does not mean that every psyker goes mad if it does not take a test.

If we grant that a characteristic test or a leadership test is an attack....(and this is the third time I'm pointing this out):

Seems like most of the anti-CoM crowd here still doesn't understand the allocation requirements of Brotherhood of Psykers. You are instructed to first allocate attacks to the Justicar. Saying that the justicar dies and then everything stops is the same as saying that if you take 25 wounds from....anti-psyker weapons during a round of shooting, all 25 are allocated to the Justicar. And once he dies, you stop and ignore all other wounds.

That isn't true. Brotherhood of Psykers tells you how to allocate anti-psyker attacks. Start with the Justicar (or Knight of the Flame), then move to random models.

The Crucible of Malediction doesn't give you a wound to allocate to the Justicar, it instructs you to remove the Psyker. The Justicar is NOT the psyker. He is the leader of a unit that together is a psyker. Since the unit together is a psyker, feel free to allocate to the Justicar and remove him first...as long as you continue removing models until the psyker that failed leadership is gone. You nominated your Justicar to roll leadership for the unit - if you failed the test, remove the psyker. The unit. The justicar is not the psyker in the unit, nor is he a psyker by himself. Removing him does not fulfill the requirements to remove the psyker, nor does Brotherhood of Psykers tell you to stop removing models once the Justicar is dead.

AlmightyWalrus wrote: The bolded part is what I do not agree with. CoM states that a psyker must either pass a Ld test or go mad. The unit in question has already tested, and failed, but because BoP redirects attacks aimed at psykers to the justicar-equivalent (nevermind if it's an attack or not, I assume it is for my argument, as that's my position), only the justicar-equivalent is removed. Thus, when CoM finishes you've only got psykers who either passed the Ld test or survived by virtue of a special rule which is more specific than your CoM, in this case BoP.

CoM does not finish untill all psykers in range have either passed the test or have been removed from play. Its not like you test half the psykers in range and then say alright boys lets call it a day. CoM specificaly requires all psykers to either PASS a LD test or be removed from play. If there are still psykers in range who have not passed a LD check then CoM is still active.

A Gk squad who failed the test, regardless who it was on is still a psyker who hasent PASSED the test and is still in range of CoM, hence CoM is not resolved untill they are removed form play.

Sigh...it's still going. Just accept that you guys are gonna disagree. And that likely when you attend a tournament that it will be ruled that it only affects a single model from the squad. Good luck though.

At last something in this discussion that I totally agree with without reservation.

I do think this discussion is worthwhile, I just don't think either side of the argument has a clear dominate position.

As Hulk stated, since it is not clear what should happen most TO's will go with the affect one model per squad interpretation so as not to create a situation where a 20 point
item can kill entire armies without GW's clear intent that it should.

Manimal wrote:As Hulk stated, since it is not clear what should happen most TO's will go with the affect one model per squad interpretation so as not to create a situation where a 20 point
item can kill entire armies without GW's clear intent that it should.

You are referring to Tyranids, I assume?

GW made clear their intention in the case of tyranids.

As far as I know JOTWW is not contentious in how the rule interacts with nids.

I meant the army that gets wtfpwnd by a 20 point piece of wargear.

All synapse = psykers.

Yes but as we all know Tyranids are GW's favorite whipping boys in this edition.

Unlike the brave noble marines, who would certainly not have an item that would be so good against them.

Note, I am not making a real argument here, I am just noting that most TO's tend to rule abilities in a conservative way if the rules are unclear.

Manimal wrote:Yes but as we all know Tyranids are GW's favorite whipping boys in this edition.[/wink]

Just so we acknowledge that there are entire units that can be wiped out by that thing.

Now saying that GK should not be allowed to lose THEIR whole unit because they are NEW SHINY EXPENSIVE AND MARINES!!!!!!!!!

That would make sense.

I'm pretty sure you're wrong about that Kirsanth. Do Warriors have the psyker special rule? Or Primes? or the Parasite? Synapse is anti-psyker but there isn't anything that says (again as far as I know) that synapse=psykers.

Could be wrong. In which case it would work just like it does against most armies. Except for guard where all but the overseer would go away if you fail the test.

Hulksmash wrote:I'm pretty sure you're wrong about that Kirsanth. Do Warriors have the psyker special rule? Or Primes? or the Parasite? Synapse is anti-psyker but there isn't anything that says (again as far as I know) that synapse=psykers.

Could be wrong. In which case it would work just like it does against most armies. Except for guard where all but the overseer would go away if you fail the test.

Naa, you are correct.

Most of the synapse are psykers.

Warriors and Parasite are fine.

Although you are incorrect, Synapse has NOTHING to do with anti-psyker ability.

kirsanth wrote:I meant the army that gets wtfpwnd by a 20 point piece of wargear.

All synapse = psykers.

I personally hate it when my 25pt DL takes out a 250+pt Land Raider. (Noting how certain people rationalized how a 20pt piece of wargear (CoM) taking out a unit (GK) is too overpowered.)

Yes, I know the analogy is not apples to apples, I really don't care.

I think the reason most of the GK players have their panties in a twist is not so much that it targets Psykers so much as that basically anything that is pure GK qualifies as a Psyker because of BoP and this is going to apparently result in entire GK units being removed in swathes despite the clearly intentional provision in BoP's subsequent points that seems added specifically to protect them from being disposed of in just that sort of fashion.


EDIT/ADDED: Granted the probability of losing many units of GKs to failed leadership tests, let alone being positioned so poorly to even be hit by the range of this to be forced to test, is pretty slim.

The first sentence for the CoM states it is a weapon - in activating it, you are conducting an attack, thus enacting BoP. /enddiscussion.

Furthermore to imply the CoM "doesn't target" psykers is asinine - if it didn't, how does it ONLY affect psykers? It specifically targets psykers.

The two are not mutually exclusive, and in fact work sequentially.

1. Turn on CoM
2. GK squad affected
3. Roll leadership
4. BoP rules make clarification to handle casualties
5. Done.

Nowhere in CoM does it say you get a magical recycle with it if there are psykers left, nor allow you to overwrite another Codex's reactive and more specific rule in response.

GhostRecon wrote:Furthermore to imply the CoM "doesn't target" psykers is asinine - if it didn't, how does it ONLY affect psykers? It specifically targets psykers.

Nowhere in CoM does it say you get a magical recycle with it if there are psykers left, nor allow you to overwrite another Codex's reactive and more specific rule in response.

I can effect things without targeting them. And if your going to argue for target vs nontarget, don't defeat yourself in your own sentence by putting in what it actually does, which is effect psykers, not target them. I can effect you without targeting you.

And nowhere in the BoP rule does it state that if you fail a test (except Perils of the Warp) does that count against only the Justicar.

And as far as the first line of the CoM stating that it is a weapon, the first line of BoP states that units of Grey Knights are Psykers. Notice the pluralization??? Which tells me they are all psykers, so either you test as a unit, which you are, and go bye bye when you fail, or you test separately, and remove the models that fail. Your choice on that one, as I don't really care which way you do it.

And your right, nowhere in CoM does it state that I get a recycle, but it does state in your BoP rule that you are not only a unit of Psykers, but that you count as a single psyker. So tell me how I can remove a single psyker and still have that single psyker be on the board??? I can't, either the whole of the single psyker goes away, or your rule is broken as you are not, in fact, a single psyker, but a unit of psykers.