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It's a hard line to draw either way. While you can say "The item wasn't used throughout the tournament"-----you end up with two issues;

1. You have no idea if opponents change in game decisions according to your illegal wargear
2. You have to draw a line at what point the illegal gear matters in terms of DQ---which is practically impossible to do

Pragmatically speaking, if I were to run tournaments----my policy would be black/white. If your list is illegal in anyway, I'm sorry you must be disqualified. It's open, honest, up front and objective.

AgeOfEgos wrote:It's a hard line to draw either way. While you can say "The item wasn't used throughout the tournament"-----you end up with two issues;

1. You have no idea if opponents change in game decisions according to your illegal wargear
2. You have to draw a line at what point the illegal gear matters in terms of DQ---which is practically impossible to do

Pragmatically speaking, if I were to run tournaments----my policy would be black/white. If your list is illegal in anyway, I'm sorry you must be disqualified. It's open, honest, up front and objective.

Its also stupid, asinine, bureacratic, and nonsensically reaks of government employees. Such an attitude would be an excellent way to insure tournament participation would fall dramatically.

Before going nuclear how about using, you know, common sense and just say "dude your list is illegal change it." Seriously.

If discovered afterwards: 1) Did it impact the games? 2) if so by how much; 3) was this list reviewed prior to the game? (if it was indeed reviewed then there's no fault to the player, but the TO).

I understand what you're saying Frazz and agree that it some cases, it may not affect the game to a dramatic degree (or anymore than dice may for example).

However, due to the subjective nature of the 'sometimes' and 'how much' (What if the opposing player stated it affected his decision making?)----the pragmatic, objective and fair method would be zero tolerance (in my opinion). I do not consider it a burden for players to ensure they have legal lists.

AgeOfEgos wrote:I understand what you're saying Frazz and agree that it some cases, it may not affect the game to a dramatic degree (or anymore than dice may for example).

However, due to the subjective nature of the 'sometimes' and 'how much' (What if the opposing player stated it affected his decision making?)----the pragmatic, objective and fair method would be zero tolerance (in my opinion). I do not consider it a burden for players to ensure they have legal lists.

I do if you are going to disqualify them for a simple error, especially if you looked at the list and ok it previously.

Frazzled wrote:

AgeOfEgos wrote:I understand what you're saying Frazz and agree that it some cases, it may not affect the game to a dramatic degree (or anymore than dice may for example).

However, due to the subjective nature of the 'sometimes' and 'how much' (What if the opposing player stated it affected his decision making?)----the pragmatic, objective and fair method would be zero tolerance (in my opinion). I do not consider it a burden for players to ensure they have legal lists.

I do if you are going to disqualify them for a simple error, especially if you looked at the list and ok it previously.

I won't address the checking it before hand---as I think that's setting the tournament up for failure. For example, if a list checker misses a mistake----then the burden and responsibility is now shared by the tournament organizers. Personally, I have no issue with attending tournaments that state if your list is found to be illegal in any way---you may continue your games---but will be disqualified from winning prizes.

The simplicity of the error is subjective---which is the issue. While one player may consider an extra ML a non-issue due to him wiping out the Fang group turn 1----another player from a previous round may take exception as a remaining Fang ML blew up his Wave Serpent at a crucial point in the game.

In addition, perception may prove an issue. Even if the organizer were to speak to each of a person's opponents post-tournament to determine the impact of an illegal list---the rest of the tournament participants will not have that perspective. They will have no idea on the impact of an illegal list and will likely have a distaste for organizers arbitrarily determining what is a significant error.

Transparency, objective up front requirements----with the burden of responsibility on the player base seems the way to go (in my opinion). I might feel differently if we were asking them to construct a statistical probability table----but constructing an army list and double checking its legality is a relatively simple task that each participant should be in habit of. Accountability for their mistake in not double checking their list via a DQ from winning a place/prize hardly seems a harsh method to ensure fairness throughout a tournament. They still got to play their games, roll some dice and push some pewter---they'll just miss out on some plastic wrap.

Frazzled wrote:

AgeOfEgos wrote:It's a hard line to draw either way. While you can say "The item wasn't used throughout the tournament"-----you end up with two issues;

1. You have no idea if opponents change in game decisions according to your illegal wargear
2. You have to draw a line at what point the illegal gear matters in terms of DQ---which is practically impossible to do

Pragmatically speaking, if I were to run tournaments----my policy would be black/white. If your list is illegal in anyway, I'm sorry you must be disqualified. It's open, honest, up front and objective.

Its also stupid, asinine, bureacratic, and nonsensically reaks of government employees. Such an attitude would be an excellent way to insure tournament participation would fall dramatically.

Before going nuclear how about using, you know, common sense and just say "dude your list is illegal change it." Seriously.

If discovered afterwards: 1) Did it impact the games? 2) if so by how much; 3) was this list reviewed prior to the game? (if it was indeed reviewed then there's no fault to the player, but the TO).

Or you could take 5 minutes to proof read your list, I know its a difficult concept for some to grasp.

This was a very interesting battle report and I thoroughly enjoyed it.

However, I do not believe the old raider to be anything like the venom in size or shape and your opponents conversions are very close in scale to the new model. While there was no current model at the time I think that the two different kinds of venom within the one match do cause confusion and bad feeling. This is not a personal attack on either of you, just an observation.

Keep the DE reports coming!!!

Frazzled wrote:This is the problem with these discussions. Something is amiss and people starting screaming "cheater."
You're equating major strategy examples with chickenshit. The comparison makes baby Jebus sad.

I'm pointing out that YOU are flat out wrong in your statement that no one would get penalized in all of sports. I can list example after example in all sports of ALL varieties of folks breaking rules intentionally or unintentionally and getting penalized. Folks have gotten slaps on the wrist to DQ'd and everything in between.

Your equating that there is a seperate catagory between illegal or legal. There isnt. Inappropriate personal comment redacted by Mannahnin.

Is he a cheater? No. Did he have an illegal list? Absolutely. Doesnt change anything.

Thats my point. This is a slap on the wrist. No ever forfeits a game or a win on minor trivialities. Your're going from Zero to OMGCHEATERSMOTEHIM in 3.4 seconds. About a 9 on the tension scale.

Folks can and HAVE forfeited games over minor items. Your whitewashing facts left and right. From sports to this. Its pitiful. That isnt your point. Your point has been 'its no big deal'. Well yeah, illegal lists are. Intentional? No. Is he a cheater? No. Did he break the rules? Absolutely. Whatever the TO decides from that point on would be fine- from a slap on the list to getting thrown out.

carmachu wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:

Or like what they have appeared to do now which is see that it affected nothing, no need to adjust the tournament results, and let it just die off as it is a moot point.

If thats what the TO's wish to do, thats fine. Its YOU and Dash and others who are rationalizing that "its no big deal" thats the issue. You cant just blow it off as "I didnt use it."

My stance on this issue is it is a moot point because the judges HAVE NOT done anything. I am saying it isn't a big deal based on the inaction of the judges. By nonaction the TO's have settled the manner pretty clearly.

This really seems to be more of an issue of you just having a problem with Dash in general and probably wanting him strung up by his nuts with modeling wire for this offense, despite the apparent, "don't give a crap" attitude of the actual TO's. Seriously give this one a rest. Maybe next tourney they will flog him.

Keep it polite, folks. No need to make it personal.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Frazzled wrote:

AgeOfEgos wrote:Pragmatically speaking, if I were to run tournaments----my policy would be black/white. If your list is illegal in anyway, I'm sorry you must be disqualified. It's open, honest, up front and objective.

Its also stupid, asinine, bureacratic, and nonsensically reaks of government employees. Such an attitude would be an excellent way to insure tournament participation would fall dramatically.

Before going nuclear how about using, you know, common sense and just say "dude your list is illegal change it." Seriously.

If discovered afterwards: 1) Did it impact the games? 2) if so by how much; 3) was this list reviewed prior to the game? (if it was indeed reviewed then there's no fault to the player, but the TO).

As has been noted beforehand, many tournaments (and amateur or professional sporting events) take a hard line, in part because it keeps things simple and avoids an appearance of favoritism. As mentioned before, the standard policy for the UKGT, for some years, has been to give the player a 0 for every round in which they used an illegal list so far. They check lists during the weekend. A friend of mine was in contention to place high, then the judges found an error three or four games in and gave him that many zeroes in place of his previous wins. Was he bummed out? Sure. Did he understand the reasoning behind the policy? Certainly.

Some TOs do use your suggested subjective test (like the guys at The Alamo did, and like Mike Brandt did at the NOVA last year), and asking the opponents. The remaining issue there, of course, is that even if the player's five opponent's don't object, is that really fair to everyone else at the event? Tony K had to accept a degree of discredit and complaint and teasing (being nicknamed "3PO", etc.) until he cleaned the slate by also winning at Adepticon, and doing so with a legal list.

I agree with AoE that it's a bit stickier if the judges have checked the list and they missed it too. Certainly in that situation they bear a share of responsibility for the issue. But it is an issue.

Thanks Dakka, another good player and poster driven away by a bunch of idiots who couldn't keep their mouth shut and a bunch of mods and admins that only selectively defend people. This site becomes worse each time we lose posters like Gwar! and Dash.

Norade, summarizing the various folks who disagreed with or criticized Dash as "a bunch of idiots who couldn't keep their mouth shut" hardly seems an accurate or nuanced representation of Dash's multiple years of oft-contentious discussion on this site.

As you have no access to the user case files for Dash or his various detractors, nor to their edited or deleted posts, you literally cannot know how consistent or selective the moderation has been.

While we do not discuss individual disciplinary action with other users, a person is only ever suspended for what they choose to post. If someone is rude to you, it is always better to take the high road and not reciprocate. Not merely to avoid negative consequences from the moderators, but because it demonstrates that you are above petty insults and that your arguments and positions aren't so weak as to require flaming or personal attacks to shore them up.

Norade wrote: This site becomes worse each time we lose posters like Gwar!

I disagree and financially contribute to this site.
You are welcome to start your own forum and police it as you see fit.

wwwZugZugorc wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

AgeOfEgos wrote:It's a hard line to draw either way. While you can say "The item wasn't used throughout the tournament"-----you end up with two issues;

1. You have no idea if opponents change in game decisions according to your illegal wargear
2. You have to draw a line at what point the illegal gear matters in terms of DQ---which is practically impossible to do

Pragmatically speaking, if I were to run tournaments----my policy would be black/white. If your list is illegal in anyway, I'm sorry you must be disqualified. It's open, honest, up front and objective.

Its also stupid, asinine, bureacratic, and nonsensically reaks of government employees. Such an attitude would be an excellent way to insure tournament participation would fall dramatically.

Before going nuclear how about using, you know, common sense and just say "dude your list is illegal change it." Seriously.

If discovered afterwards: 1) Did it impact the games? 2) if so by how much; 3) was this list reviewed prior to the game? (if it was indeed reviewed then there's no fault to the player, but the TO).

Or you could take 5 minutes to proof read your list, I know its a difficult concept for some to grasp.

True Dat, but having played with the awesomesauce of Chaos Dex 3.5, that was easier said than done.

However, I've not been to a tourney where they didn't have lists to the TO prior to gaming. The tourneys I have run we always went through the list first. That seems like a given.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

carmachu wrote:

Frazzled wrote:This is the problem with these discussions. Something is amiss and people starting screaming "cheater."
You're equating major strategy examples with chickenshit. The comparison makes baby Jebus sad.

I'm pointing out that YOU are flat out wrong in your statement that no one would get penalized in all of sports. I can list example after example in all sports of ALL varieties of folks breaking rules intentionally or unintentionally and getting penalized. Folks have gotten slaps on the wrist to DQ'd and everything in between.

Your equating that there is a seperate catagory between illegal or legal. There isnt. Inappropriate personal comment redacted by Mannahnin.

Is he a cheater? No. Did he have an illegal list? Absolutely. Doesnt change anything.

Thats my point. This is a slap on the wrist. No ever forfeits a game or a win on minor trivialities. Your're going from Zero to OMGCHEATERSMOTEHIM in 3.4 seconds. About a 9 on the tension scale.

Folks can and HAVE forfeited games over minor items. Your whitewashing facts left and right. From sports to this. Its pitiful. That isnt your point. Your point has been 'its no big deal'. Well yeah, illegal lists are. Intentional? No. Is he a cheater? No. Did he break the rules? Absolutely. Whatever the TO decides from that point on would be fine- from a slap on the list to getting thrown out.

Your personal freakout is an excellent oexample of this. I didn't say people didn't get penalized. But for reals, you've never seen a football, basketball, or soccer game (I'm assuming by your comments you definitely didn't play any). Penalties and punsishments are given out all the time. They don't freaking kill the other team for it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Brother Ramses wrote:

carmachu wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:

Or like what they have appeared to do now which is see that it affected nothing, no need to adjust the tournament results, and let it just die off as it is a moot point.

If thats what the TO's wish to do, thats fine. Its YOU and Dash and others who are rationalizing that "its no big deal" thats the issue. You cant just blow it off as "I didnt use it."

My stance on this issue is it is a moot point because the judges HAVE NOT done anything. I am saying it isn't a big deal based on the inaction of the judges. By nonaction the TO's have settled the manner pretty clearly.

This really seems to be more of an issue of you just having a problem with Dash in general and probably wanting him strung up by his nuts with modeling wire for this offense, despite the apparent, "don't give a crap" attitude of the actual TO's. Seriously give this one a rest. Maybe next tourney they will flog him.

Agreed.

Having an illegal list (no matter to what degree) is no one's fault but your own. You can't blame anyone but yourself for being 1 point over. You should step up and be ready to responsibility for your actions and fully accept whatever punishment is handed out. Sure, it sucks to get DQ'd for 1 point over or a piece of wargear that didn't really matter, but you have to draw the line somewhere. If you have a gray area, where does it end? If you can get away with 1 point, why not 2? why not 3? why not 30, 300 or 3,000? You need to understand that the drawing a line, preserves the integrity of the event as a whole and that integrity is more important than your individual happiness (when you're in the wrong to boot!).

However, with that being said, I think it is in the best interests of a TO to check lists before a tournament to catch mistakes so they don't have to DQ people. It's in the financial interest of the TO to make sure you have a good time, so you'll want to come back and bring your friends. There is a careful balance that needs to be maintained between finding an amicable solution and upholding the integrity of the event. Nevertheless, at the end of the day any list making mistake is YOUR OWN FAULT and you should be ready to take the full repercussions.

Leenus wrote:Having an illegal list (no matter to what degree) is no one's fault but your own. You can't blame anyone but yourself for being 1 point over. You should step up and be ready to responsibility for your actions and fully accept whatever punishment is handed out. Sure, it sucks to get DQ'd for 1 point over or a piece of wargear that didn't really matter, but you have to draw the line somewhere. If you have a gray area, where does it end? If you can get away with 1 point, why not 2? why not 3? why not 30, 300 or 3,000? You need to understand that the drawing a line, preserves the integrity of the event as a whole and that integrity is more important than your individual happiness (when you're in the wrong to boot!).

Good thing that Dash wasn't over the points limit then...

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Leenus wrote:Having an illegal list (no matter to what degree) is no one's fault but your own. You can't blame anyone but yourself for being 1 point over. You should step up and be ready to responsibility for your actions and fully accept whatever punishment is handed out. Sure, it sucks to get DQ'd for 1 point over or a piece of wargear that didn't really matter, but you have to draw the line somewhere. If you have a gray area, where does it end? If you can get away with 1 point, why not 2? why not 3? why not 30, 300 or 3,000? You need to understand that the drawing a line, preserves the integrity of the event as a whole and that integrity is more important than your individual happiness (when you're in the wrong to boot!).

Good thing that Dash wasn't over the points limit then...

Good thing his list was still illegal.

Yes, his list was illegal. He had an illegal piece of useless wargear on someone who couldn't take it. He was already under points, and spent some of the points that he did have on more useless stuff. Bravo for him still winning despite both the accidental and the intentional handicaps stacking. I'm sure he's learned his lesson, and will take out the illegal wargear and fill in the rest of his missing points with more stuff to increase his edge.

dayve110 wrote:Yes, his list was illegal. He had an illegal piece of useless wargear on someone who couldn't take it. He was already under points, and spent some of the points that he did have on more useless stuff. Bravo for him still winning despite both the accidental and the intentional handicaps stacking. I'm sure he's learned his lesson, and will take out the illegal wargear and fill in the rest of his missing points with more stuff to increase his edge.

The point is, the rules are there for a reason. If you're going to DQ someone for being 1 point over, also (typically) an honest mistake, how is this other form of illegal any different? Illegal is illegal. If the opportunity would have arose, Dash would have used that item, since he didn't know it was illegal until after. If he would have used the item, we would be singing a COMPLETELY different story. Why didn't he use it? Because he didnt need to/the opportunity never came up.

I guarantee you Tony's list last year had at least a couple items that were never used in any game, so no harm no foul right? He was over points (illegal list) but didnt use the items the points were there for.

Also, he had 3 items, not 2. Why is the animus vitae the one we call into question? I know it's what he said he added, etc etc, but technically, since we can't assess intent and have nothing but his word, couldn't you assume the third "illegal" item was one of the models others, which he may have used?

Look, I'm not saying we should crucify dash, or make a giant deal out of this. But I take exception with the people who just brush it off as "meh, totally doesn't matter". Dash consistently is a top finisher, he isn't a new player. An illegal list is an illegal list. Rulings need to be consistent. If we DQ one guy for an illegal list, we should dq the other, it's only fair. I realize the Tony K and the Dash event were at totally different venues, but the community response is a bit absurd and arbitrary. Events would benefit from a clear set of rules and expectations followed by a clear set of punishments/penalties.

carmachu wrote:
I'm pointing out that YOU are flat out wrong in your statement that no one would get penalized in all of sports. I can list example after example in all sports of ALL varieties of folks breaking rules intentionally or unintentionally and getting penalized. Folks have gotten slaps on the wrist to DQ'd and everything in between.

True, but real sports have high stakes. In some sports, prize money or prestige is enormous; in others people's health or lives might be at risk due to rules breaches (I'm a referee myself in such a sport, and have DQ'd people over seemingly trivial issues).

But this is a game of toy soldiers. A 40k GT isn't US Open. If I started enforcing rules and lists in similar fashion than I enforce rules in the sport I'm reffing, nobody would ever play with me.

AgeOfEgos wrote:I won't address the checking it before hand---as I think that's setting the tournament up for failure. For example, if a list checker misses a mistake----then the burden and responsibility is now shared by the tournament organizers.

Since the tournament organisers are the guys responsible for ensuring that everyone is playing according to the rules of the tournament, that's exactly as it should be.

Backfire wrote:

carmachu wrote:
I'm pointing out that YOU are flat out wrong in your statement that no one would get penalized in all of sports. I can list example after example in all sports of ALL varieties of folks breaking rules intentionally or unintentionally and getting penalized. Folks have gotten slaps on the wrist to DQ'd and everything in between.

True, but real sports have high stakes. In some sports, prize money or prestige is enormous; in others people's health or lives might be at risk due to rules breaches (I'm a referee myself in such a sport, and have DQ'd people over seemingly trivial issues).

But this is a game of toy soldiers. A 40k GT isn't US Open. If I started enforcing rules and lists in similar fashion than I enforce rules in the sport I'm reffing, nobody would ever play with me.

But then again the rules are very important to Dash as seen in his 45 min. discussion to smooth out a rules differance and what about how Dash makes it so serious "traveling around the Country winning tournaments" as he says. So even to Dash little rules descrepences (as Moster Rain pointed out eairlier by asking him if he would care if it were the other shoe persay) matter. So rules shouldent be so subjective. P.S. Im not calling for blood but its a valid community point as seen in threads such as "is it ok for your opponant to be 1 point over". In general the concencus was never.

If I were running a tourney, and it came to light that one player's list was illegal, I would have no choice but to disqualify. In the instance of the Alamo, this didn't come out until well after the fact, the winner had already given his prize away, and the TO's were so inept that they had already screwed up the scoring and declared the wrong winner by leaving out part of the scoring. I don't think that there is anything that the Alamo can do to make things right. The whole tournament wasn't very well set up, as evidenced by the poor TOs/judging and horrible lack of terrain.

insaniak wrote:

AgeOfEgos wrote:I won't address the checking it before hand---as I think that's setting the tournament up for failure. For example, if a list checker misses a mistake----then the burden and responsibility is now shared by the tournament organizers.

Since the tournament organisers are the guys responsible for ensuring that everyone is playing according to the rules of the tournament, that's exactly as it should be.

*Shrug*, I can see that argument----provided they put forth a caveat stating regardless if they pre-approve your list-----if at anytime your list is found illegal you will be DQ.

Frazzled wrote:

Carmachu wrote:Folks can and HAVE forfeited games over minor items. Your whitewashing facts left and right. From sports to this. Its pitiful. That isnt your point. Your point has been 'its no big deal'. Well yeah, illegal lists are. Intentional? No. Is he a cheater? No. Did he break the rules? Absolutely. Whatever the TO decides from that point on would be fine- from a slap on the list to getting thrown out.

Your personal freakout is an excellent oexample of this. I didn't say people didn't get penalized. But for reals, you've never seen a football, basketball, or soccer game (I'm assuming by your comments you definitely didn't play any). Penalties and punsishments are given out all the time. They don't freaking kill the other team for it.

Please cool down the rhetoric. When you're using hyperbole like "stupid, asinine, bureacratic, and nonsensically reaks of government employees", you have little room in which to point fingers or accuse others of freaking out. Coming from you I should probably suspend you for that "government employees" barb; that's probably the lowest blow you can think of.

As cited earlier in the thread, there is a (fairly recent?) example of a player at a major golfing event being DQd because he realized he had an extra club in his bag. This is a pretty parallel situation. Did Dash's list error or that extra club make any difference in the event? No, probably not. But if you're trying to maximize consistency and fairness to other players, a DQ or other harsh penalty, even for a seemingly-minor infraction, is not "stupid" or "asinine". It's fairly common and the reasoning behind it understandable. Now, as I said before I'm not saying that how The Alamo or the NOVA handled it (which were both more in line with your suggested approach) is bad either. I think both approaches have their benefits and drawbacks. There's no call to beangry or nasty to each other over whether you prefer one way or Carmachu prefers the other. They're both workable approaches.

Hulksmash wrote:He wasn't over points though. He was actually still under. The problem was having 3 arcane wargear items with a limit of 2. And according to the batreps it never got used. It's a little different than going over in points. Just clarifying. Wouldn't bother me if I'd played him, but also wouldnt' bother me if he got DQ'd after the fact.

As a player, this is pretty much exactly my attitude.

As a TO, things are a little more complex. Dash and I have already exchanged a few emails (at his initiation) regarding thoughts on his DE and his Raiders, so that he is clear where the judges' stand on his models and other ideas before he even gets to Wargamescon - this is a sign of a thoughtful player, and I'll note that the most consistent thing I have found about players who ask questions like this is that they tend to be veteran and skilled players. In regards to an illegal list, there are two categories. First, players who submit and have their lists approved ahead of time. If their list is somehow incorrect (which is as close to impossible as I can make it), then the error is corrected and we move on with play, and I give their opponents fabulous cash and prizes in compensation. If they did not submit their list ahead of time and an error is found, they cannot win anything at the tournament and the list is corrected as soon as the error is found. We offer the list review (and printing copies of your list) to insulate players from making mistakes that cost them, but we allow players to drop that ball and potentially deal with the consequences.

What about if I went to a tournament and was accidentally 100 points under? Could I later on claim a prize or something?

Mistakes happen.

Kilkrazy wrote:What about if I went to a tournament and was accidentally 100 points under? Could I later on claim a prize or something?

Mistakes happen.

You're comparing apples and bowling balls here

It's perfectly legal to be under points. It isn't, however, legal to be over points or to equip models illegally.

I truly don't understand where all this contention is coming from. The list was illegal. Simple as.

It does amuse me that Dash of all people fell foul of this. If I remember correctly, he was one of the most outspoken voices wanting to turn 40k from a 'past-time' into a 'sport' with high-stakes money on the line etc. etc. Imagine the reaction if this kind of discrepancy had crept up in one of his show matches or 'Win a Battleforce' games...I dread to think...

L. Wrex

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:I truly don't understand where all this contention is coming from. The list was illegal. Simple as.

It does amuse me that Dash of all people fell foul of this. If I remember correctly, he was one of the most outspoken voices wanting to turn 40k from a 'past-time' into a 'sport' with high-stakes money on the line etc. etc. Imagine the reaction if this kind of discrepancy had crept up in one of his show matches or 'Win a Battleforce' games...I dread to think...

L. Wrex

I think this battle report quite clearly illustrates why 40k can't possibly go 'sport', high stakes or no. Not because of the list, which is a problem in its own right, but because of how the 'championship game' actually went.

How would the Superbowl go, as an event, if the team down by 3 in the 3rd quarter was on the 1st yard line with 3 downs to go, the opposing judge calls for a line measurement, the clock is left running, and time runs out without the O ever touching the ball again?