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I know when I'm snorting blow off a call girl's hip bone---while sun bathing on my yacht, I always think "Man that box of space marines really isn't over priced..."


Seriously, the only apt comparison is v. other miniature table top game options. You could even break it down into;

--Construction/painting/converting fun
--Length of games
--Ability to manipulate and change your force via limited purchasing
etc.

Comparing GW specifically v. other hobbies is misplaced--as it assumes the GW is the only tabletop miniature option/manufacturer.

Kilkrazy wrote:So, if we get back on the main topic, we see that GW models are 25% to 300% more expensive than equivalent models from other wargame companies. The rules also are Not Cheap™

I don't see that there is that big a price discrepancy. There are some mini ranges that are cheaper but there are others that are similar or more expensive.

From the BoLS article on gaming cost:
Orks - $548 for 80 infantry and 7 vehicles
Legion - $193 for 26 infantry and 1 vehicle

The Orks cost 2.5x as much but you get significantly more than 2.5x as much stuff.

Scott-S6 wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:So, if we get back on the main topic, we see that GW models are 25% to 300% more expensive than equivalent models from other wargame companies. The rules also are Not Cheap™

I don't see that there is that big a price discrepancy. There are some mini ranges that are cheaper but there are others that are similar or more expensive.

From the BoLS article on gaming cost:
Orks - $548 for 80 infantry and 7 vehicles
Legion - $193 for 26 infantry and 1 vehicle

The Orks cost 2.5x as much but you get significantly more than 2.5x as much stuff.

You can't do single numbers--as many models in WM live much longer than their 40k counterparts. You can line up 7 vehicles and 80 infantry first turn---and lose 1/2 of your vehicles and portions of units. I haven't seen a first round 'Lost a significant chunk of your army' moment in WM.

I did this comparison before;

Cygnar Battleforce 40 bucks
Long Gunner box 40 bucks
Stormblade box 40 bucks
Gun Mage box 27 bucks
Journeyman 7 bucks


150 bucks gives you a pretty good 35 point force (which 'feels' like a sub 1850 game of 40k to me). Upgrade to 50 for another 50 bucks with Strangewayes, Stormclad and UA (Which 'feels' like a 1850ish+ game to me). So 200 bucks gives you a pretty good 50 point force (Which seems to be the Steamroller format---35 or 50).

Let's make a competitive 1850 Vulkan list!

(all prices at 20% off)
Vulkan 16 bucks
Dread 35 bucks
Dread 35 bucks
TH/SS Terms 40 bucks
---LRC 45 bucks
Tac Squad 30 bucks
----Rhino 26 bucks
Tac Squad 30 bucks
----Rhino 26 bucks
Scout Squad 20 bucks
----Telion 12 bucks
LS w/ HF/MM 24 bucks
LS w/ HF/MM 25 bucks
Pred 40 bucks
Pred 40 bucks
Pred 40 bucks

485 dollars

That's actually 1800---so you have some room for upgrades (Where I don't know, PF on Tac squads is pretty pointless). But 50 is there if you want it.

Exactly Scott-S6, on a per-model basis, GW prices are not out-of-line with the rest of the miniature industry. There are cheaper lines, there are more expensive lines, and that's how it goes.

The complaint most have doesn't seem to revolve around that reality though. People say Warmachine is cheaper, not because Warmachine models cost less, but because, as a game, you need fewer of them in order to play.

With that in mind, the start-up cost for Warmachine is cheaper than that for 40k or Fantasy. That's one of the biggest problems with GWs stuff right now - there is no intro-priced system that leads into the full 2000-3000 points games.

What's worse is that GWs hamfisted approaches to doing just this have consistently failed because rather than write a separate set of rules just for small-scale skirmishes, they keep trying to retrofit existing rules and codexes for this purposes. Consider Combat Patrol, or Kill Team. Why didn't they ever accomplish much?

1) They required you to buy the whole $75 rulebook, because the rulebook that comes with the starter set omits those rules.

2) They're horribly unbalanced. Kill-team isn't an even skirmish game, one side has models that move randomly for half the game, while the other side gets special buffs. And so much is dependent on the initiative stat, that low-int armies have a really hard time playing defender, while high int armies get quite a big boost. Combat Patrol is worse. With it's seemingly random restrictions (no 2+ save, no 3-wound models, no AV over a certain total), you end up with a situation where a guard army can field a full-blown mech line, with an HQ and multiple scoring units, while Eldar, for example, are unable to take an HQ at all, and have no transports that are allowed. That's fair...

It'd be nice to see a real intro game that doesn't rely on a $100 investment in rulebooks, one that starts to teach some of the mechanics of the full games, but that plays by itself, and is balanced with itself.

---

As for the value of time enjoying a hobby, I posted something about this in another thread before. Compare going to a movie with buying a box of marines. The movie would be over before I even had the marines assembled. I'd spend several more hours enjoying painting my marines. When I was done, I'd be able to sell my marines, for more than I paid for them, on eBay. Your mileage may vary on those last two points. People who view assembling and painting their models are not going to get the full value return on their purchase as those who do. If you think filing mold lines, drilling bolter barrels, and painting unit insignia are a waste of time and a chore, you're viewing these things as negatives, whereas someone who enjoys these aspects of the hobby sees them as a positive.

The value of any hobby is in the enjoyment you get from it. I can burn gasoline riding my motorcycle for $5/hour, if I choose. It's fun, but I have nothing to show for it after the fact. Is that a better or worse hobby than painting toy soldiers?

Redbeard wrote:Exactly Scott-S6, on a per-model basis, GW prices are not out-of-line with the rest of the miniature industry. There are cheaper lines, there are more expensive lines, and that's how it goes.

The complaint most have doesn't seem to revolve around that reality though. People say Warmachine is cheaper, not because Warmachine models cost less, but because, as a game, you need fewer of them in order to play.

I agree that the buy-in for 40K is higher than WM but the common statement that GW minis are expensive doesn't hold up. Especially when one of the most popular alternatives has figures priced substantially higher. Yet we have kilkrazy claiming that GW minis are 25-300% more expensive.

streamdragon wrote:Oh, I forgot. Every thread has to be super serious and can't just be a light hearted question about what other expensive hobbies you have. Good thing you folks were here to drag down the fun!


On topic: Magic the Gathering. I don't want to think about how much money I sunk into that game. What's even worse, is to think about how much I spent on Magic the Gathering: Online! Virtual cards, sounds like a bargain! -_-

Yeah magic the gathering does cost a few.

my main money drain is: £1000 mandola and a £1200 drum kit + festivals( £200 a time at least and i did four last year...)

Cars are a way more expensive hobby. Ever drop $2k on a single part of your GW army?

Airsoft/hardball is also pretty expensive. You need a LOT of gear to really get going, and the weapons constantly require maintenance, gas and bullets. Sometimes they outright break, and you have to get them to a mechanic to be fixed for a hefty sum or buy a new weapon altogether. Club memberships costs money, and you also need to pay to rent places to go and shoot unless you have a good location already. I never really got into the hobby properly because the cost was too high compared to the time you actually spent in the field shooting at eachother. I know that fishing can be very expensive if you want all the proper gear to catch every kind of fish out there.
Some buddies of mine also spend a lot of money to go out drinking and clubbing. I know this isn't a hobby, but it is what they do most of their thursday/friday/saturday evenings. My guess that they spend most of the money they earn, somtimes up to 1000DKK (roughly 190$/120£) during a single night of clubbing! I think that is too expensive, but sometimes I go with them if I have nothing else to do.

Re WM/H vs 40K.

I would suggest a better comparision would be WM/H vs Necromunda.

Both of these skirmish games have free rules or a book if you are so inclined to buy it.

Models-wise a WM/H setup it appears can be hand for just over £90 from Age of Egos example.

Necro starter gangs are £20.50 add a blister or two and we are talking £40.

GW seem pretty cheap now - Specialist Game is where it's at yo!