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Lynata wrote:

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:It depends on how many lesser orders there are. The major orders account for a few tens of thousands on the upper limit, and there's no indication as to how many minor orders there are.

Aye. The 2E Codex gives a few numbers here: We get to know that it took the Orders Militant 2.500 years [M36-M39] to get from 4.000 to 30.000 members, whilst the book also notes that this number has "declined slightly" in recent years, telling us that the major Orders would have somewhere between 3.000 and 4.000 Sisters now ("updated" by the Third War of Armageddon which has pushed the Martyred Lady down to only 300 Battle Sisters). One still has to work with a lot of conjecture, though...

My opinion regarding their overall numbers is currently based primarily on the wording within the 5E core rulebook, where it says that there are "many" minor Orders with about 100 Sisters each. "Many hundred" SoB doesn't sound like a lot, but ties in well with the 2E stuff above. It also explains why the SoB rarely show up in the fluff, even in places where you might totally expect them (such as during attacks on important Cathedrals, for example the Battle of Bladen).

Just to throw in my personal reasoning for the statement.

That would imply there are actually fewer SoB than Space Marines in the galaxy.

aka_mythos wrote:That would imply there are actually fewer SoB than Space Marines in the galaxy.

Exactly.

Which is why you always see more Marines than SoB showing up in combined arms operations.
Example: Third War of Armageddon, 150(!) Marine companies, 10 companies of Battle Sisters.

There *are* fewer SOB than there are Marines.

There's fewer Vindicare than either of them, and fewer still Callidus, and I think you could probably fit all of the active Moritat into the cargo hold of a Thunderhawk.

However, just because there's less of one thing than there is of another, doesn't make the lesser thing a "more elite" unit, in terms of combat ability or skill... though some of these are certainly more *specialized* than the SM.

Psienesis wrote:There *are* fewer SOB than there are Marines.

Unlikely.

They're positioned anywhere the Ecclesiarchy holds power, which is almost everywhere in the Imperium. It depends on how high you think "many thousands" goes (ten thousand is many, as is a hundred thousand) and how many minor orders there are, as well as the average size of said minor orders.

Melissia wrote:

Psienesis wrote:There *are* fewer SOB than there are Marines.

Unlikely.
They're positioned anywhere the Ecclesiarchy holds power, which is almost everywhere in the Imperium. It depends on how high you think "many thousands" goes (ten thousand is many, as is a hundred thousand) and how many minor orders there are, as well as the average size of said minor orders.

Given that the cathedral on Bladen (-> Cityfight Codex) had no Sisters at all - with said cathedral being of sectorwide importance, a place where the Emperor himself has walked, and being the seat of one Cardinal Andrallos - this does not seem the case. Its only defenders were a Cadian regiment, the Cardinal himself and a couple Confessors. Just to name one battle where, yet again, the Sisters were absent. This time concerning a site of major importance to the Ecclesiarchy.

Also, the exact wording was "several thousand" for the major Orders. I'm taking this as a confirmation of the detailed numbers from the 2E Codex. And the average size of a minor Order is ~100, as noted in the 5E rulebook.

Even if all 6 of the Major Orders have 20,000 sisters each (extremely unlikely, Sisters don't exactly grow on trees), that's only 120,000 Sisters.

There's, what, 150 Space Marine Chapters fielding *at least* 1000 troops a piece, with several fielding many times that number? That's at least 150,000 SM, ignoring the fact that many Chapters have far more than 1000 Marines in them.

Psienesis wrote:Even if all 6 of the Major Orders have 20,000 sisters each (extremely unlikely, Sisters don't exactly grow on trees), that's only 120,000 Sisters.

There's, what, 150 Space Marine Chapters fielding *at least* 1000 troops a piece, with several fielding many times that number? That's at least 150,000 SM, ignoring the fact that many Chapters have far more than 1000 Marines in them.

There's ~1000 chapters, and most have less than one thousand marines in them. Sisters of Battle are drawn from the female students at Schola Progenia; assuming a 50/50 split between males and females in the Scholas, and that most (let's say 80%, to be conservative) end up in SoB training, with only 20% going to Stormtrooper or Commissar training, and there is at least one commissar for every Guard regiment, we get something like seven hundred million SoB being trained every few decades. While the Major Orders are ridiculously small, it's a safe bet that there a significant number of minor orders, likely based solely around whatever shrineworld they're garrisoning, each numbering in the dozens or low hundreds.

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:Sisters of Battle are drawn from the female students at Schola Progenia; assuming a 50/50 split between males and females in the Scholas, and that most (let's say 80%, to be conservative) end up in SoB training, [...]

Actually, that's not true either.

The Schola Progenium isn't just used to train Sisters Militant, Storm Troopers or Commissars. In fact, those three groups of progena form just a tiny fraction of what the scholae churn out, whilst the majority ends up in various office jobs throughout the Imperium.

Most of the Progena will end up in the Adeptus Terra as scribes clerks or overseers. However, a few will be assigned to higher positions. Male Progena may become Commissars in the Imperial Guard, petty officers in the Imperial Navy or enter the priesthood itself and become a Preacher or Dean (a subordinate to a Deacon). Female Progena may well be entered into the Adepta Sororitas. Progena of both sexes may be recruited into the Inquisition or even the Officio Assassinorum. It is a great honour to pass through the Schola Progenium and those who do are well aware of their privilege.
- from the 2E SoB Codex

In addition to that, keep in mind that Adepta Sororitas isn't synonymous with Sisters of Battle - the latter are only a sub-group of the former, with even higher entrance requirements.

Also, it stands to reason that the relatively small size of the Orders Militant may have political reasons in addition to membership requirements and/or monetary (Astartes-grade equipment isn't cheap, not even for the Ecclesiarchy) ones, with the Ordo Hereticus being wary of the Church's "interpretation" of the Decree Passive. Whilst 30.000 elite warriors may be justifiable in a supporting function, "millions" of them would surely generate quite a bit of unrest as they'd pose a potential threat. That's why the Sisters of Battle focus so much on mobility, travelling throughout the Imperium in the pursuit of their various tasks and assignments instead of just erecting bases everywhere. The Ecclesiarchy isn't supposed to have thousands of "garrisons" capable to overthrow the various local governments in favour of a new Vandire.

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:assuming a 50/50 split between males and females in the Scholas, and that most (let's say 80%, to be conservative) end up in SoB training, with only 20% going to Stormtrooper or Commissar training...

I think these are very self serving assumptions. A 50/50 split is beyond generous... the Imperium is insensitive and pragmatic so they don't strike me as being necessarily an affirmative action or quota fulfilling organization. Whatever requirements the Schola Progenia to enter a militant branch have there is a clear emphasis on martial capabilities, which favors men. You also leave out the Adeptus Arbite who are also trained by the Schola Progenia and almost as large a force as Stormtroopers. I tend to think its a much smaller fraction than 80% of females at the Schola Progenia become SoB. Even IF 80% went to receive SoB training, I tend to think few of them would necessarily complete or be accepted by an order of SoB. Given their heighten elite status that puts them above Arbites, Commissars, and Storm Troopers... I'd wager SoB are more like the females at the top of their class.

Lynata wrote:"millions" of them would surely generate quite a bit of unrest as they'd pose a potential threat.

Not really. iirc there are "millions" of worlds in the Imperium. Logically speaking, there ought to be at least millions of Sisters. Given the size of many of the Convents that the Sisterhood maintains, that would still mean that most Imperial worlds don't have a Sororitas presence.


Also...

For what it's worth, the most that we get out of the new WD 'dex numbers-wise is that some of the "Orders Minoris" only have a hundred or so sisters (with the implication being that most are much larger). Also, the timeline mentions that in 799.M41, nine seperate orders curb-stomped the Red Corsairs when the latter launched an attack on the original home of the Sororitas.

While not explicitly stated, the article seems to imply that there are an awful lot of Sisters out there, though they're quite scattered.

Right, a lot of smaller Orders scattered throughout the Imperium's many worlds defending the Ecclesiarchy's interest.

Then six major orders that are tens to hundreds of thousand strong depending on the tides of fate.

Lynata wrote:In addition to that, keep in mind that Adepta Sororitas isn't synonymous with Sisters of Battle - the latter are only a sub-group of the former, with even higher entrance requirements.

Except the non-militant branches recruit from outside the Scholas. The modern version of the Schola Progenium is primarily martial.

Also, it stands to reason that the relatively small size of the Orders Militant may have political reasons in addition to membership requirements and/or monetary (Astartes-grade equipment isn't cheap, not even for the Ecclesiarchy) ones, with the Ordo Hereticus being wary of the Church's "interpretation" of the Decree Passive. Whilst 30.000 elite warriors may be justifiable in a supporting function, "millions" of them would surely generate quite a bit of unrest as they'd pose a potential threat. That's why the Sisters of Battle focus so much on mobility, travelling throughout the Imperium in the pursuit of their various tasks and assignments instead of just erecting bases everywhere. The Ecclesiarchy isn't supposed to have thousands of "garrisons" capable to overthrow the various local governments in favour of a new Vandire.

A total of millions would work out to a few dozen on the more important shrineworlds. Or the rough equivalent of a handful of Leman Russes. The effective value of MEQ forces is always greatly overestimated, and the size of the conventional forces always understated. The entirety of the loyalist Space Marines have a total rough value of one tenth the annual tithe of Armageddon (one Space Marine is worth twelve regular soldiers, there are at most one million space marines (more likely around 900,000, due to most chapters being more or less under strength), and Armageddon is tithed for one hundred million soldiers on an annual basis), for instance.

Excepting the Orders don't number hundreds of thousands, or even tens of thousands...

cf, Order of the Bloody Rose

The entire Order participated in the Therrix Suppression in 085.M41, at the time numbering 12 Battle Sister squads, 6 Retributor squads, 4 Dominion squads, 3 Celestian squads, and 1 Repentia squad. Additional support during the suppression was provided to the Sisters by a delegation of the Adeptus Ministorum. The Sisters were instrumental in scouring the hive of all heretics.4

... unless a Squad has suddenly come to number hundreds or thousands... the entire Order isn't a hundred thousand strong. It'd be hard pressed, at those numbers, to total 20,000 strong.

Being generous and giving a Squad a total of 100 troops each... there's 2600 Sisters in the entirety of the Order of the Bloody Rose, disregarding casualties. A single squad would have to approach 1000 strong, within that deployment, for one of the Orders Militant to get to 20,000 Sisters. While I'm sure some Orders Militant are larger than others, or have a different deployment schema... I don't think they're as big as you think they are.

And, really, there's also nothing wrong with there being fewer Sisters of Battle than there are Space Marines. Sure, the Adeptus Sororitas, in its entirety, probably outnumbers the SM... but the SM are expressly, specifically, entirely a Militant Order.

Psienesis wrote:Excepting the Orders don't number hundreds of thousands, or even tens of thousands...

cf, Order of the Bloody Rose

The entire Order participated in the Therrix Suppression in 085.M41, at the time numbering 12 Battle Sister squads, 6 Retributor squads, 4 Dominion squads, 3 Celestian squads, and 1 Repentia squad. Additional support during the suppression was provided to the Sisters by a delegation of the Adeptus Ministorum. The Sisters were instrumental in scouring the hive of all heretics.4

... unless a Squad has suddenly come to number hundreds or thousands... the entire Order isn't a hundred thousand strong. It'd be hard pressed, at those numbers, to total 20,000 strong.

Being generous and giving a Squad a total of 100 troops each... there's 2600 Sisters in the entirety of the Order of the Bloody Rose, disregarding casualties. A single squad would have to approach 1000 strong, within that deployment, for one of the Orders Militant to get to 20,000 Sisters. While I'm sure some Orders Militant are larger than others, or have a different deployment schema... I don't think they're as big as you think they are.

Huh?

A squad is self-explanatory. It's the basic unit type in 40K. You buy them to fill out the slots in your FO chart.

And having clarified that, the numbers that you provide are at odds with the WD article. While numbers are not provided for any of the major orders, the article does explicitly state that minor orders with only 100 or so sisters are considered to be tiny. Given that, there's no way that the numbers listed above could include the entirety of the Blood Rose unless they'd been severely mauled in a recent string of horrible setbacks.

It said "at the time".

Also:

The order now operates a full preceptory at the Shrine of the Seventeen Martyrs near Malfi in response to brewing religious conflicts in the Drusus Marches.

Further detailed:

Preceptory: An organisation of individual convents with up to 1,000 Sisters, equivalent to an Space Marines Chapter, led by a Canoness Preceptor.

There's... just not that many Battle Sisters, it seems. Which is, IMO, perfectly fine. They're an elite unit, with extremely high requirements for admission.

A squad is self-explanatory. It's the basic unit type in 40K. You buy them to fill out the slots in your FO chart.

That's rather my point. The unit-breakdown I quoted is said to come from Apocalypse, page 123 to be exact. Further, from Codex Witchhunters (3rd Ed):

Saint Aspira, eighteenth Canoness of the Order, led them against the heretic Denescura and liberated almost a hundred worlds from his power with only a thousand warriors3b. The Cloak of St. Aspira, worn by the Canoness in life, remains as a holy relic of the order.

This does not say that these thousand were the entirety of the Order, half of it, a quarter, a tenth, or what... but we are supposed to be impressed that she did so much with so few, which then doesn't really matter if it's a large part or a small part of their total force strength. However, I've not been given an in-universe date of this crusade, though given that this Order was founded in M39, it must be fairly recent.

Psienesis wrote:Also:

The order now operates a full preceptory at the Shrine of the Seventeen Martyrs near Malfi in response to brewing religious conflicts in the Drusus Marches.

Not sure why this is relevant.

Further detailed:

Preceptory: An organisation of individual convents with up to 1,000 Sisters, equivalent to an Space Marines Chapter, led by a Canoness Preceptor.

There's... just not that many Battle Sisters, it seems. Which is, IMO, perfectly fine. They're an elite unit, with extremely high requirements for admission.

See my note above, which is the latest word on the matter (given that it's part of the fluff in the new White Dwarf codex). Further, your quote focuses on Convents and not Orders. Convents are merely the physical edifices that Sisters reside in, whereas the overarching organizational divisions are accomplished along the lines of the various Orders. Or to put it in real world terms, just because you have a group of Jesuits in one monastery doesn't mean that you can't have Jesuits in another monastery elsewhere in the world. There's nothing in your quote that prohibits a single Order from maintaining multiple convents. And given the numbers cited in the quote you provided when compared with the fluff in the WD 'dex, such would almost certainly be required.

Because it offers us a concrete number to work from. There's 1000 Sisters in this Prefectory, and a Prefectory is the second-largest organizational structure the Orders Militant have. Everything below Prefectory numbers from a couple hundred Sisters to a handful of squads.

And we do know something quite definite about their Convents: There's only 2 of them, for the entire Sororitas. One on Terra, one on Ophelia VII. Each one of these Convents is "home base" for 3 of the Order Militants.

What maintains them from having more Convents is that these two Convents are all that are ever mentioned, anywhere. Sure, there may be 100,000 Convents in the Imperium we've never heard of... but you would think they would have spread the Sisters around a bit, given 6 Orders Militant, if this were an option. They didn't, and these 2 Convents are all that are listed as belonging to them, so I am inclined to believe that these are it.

The Prefectories are their next-largest organizational structure. Unless the Convents are housing exponentially larger forces... there's still not more Sisters than there are Space Marines.

Psienesis wrote:And we do know something quite definite about their Convents: There's only 2 of them, for the entire Sororitas. One on Terra, one on Ophelia VII. Each one of these Convents is "home base" for 3 of the Order Militants.

What maintains them from having more Convents is that these two Convents are all that are ever mentioned, anywhere. Sure, there may be 100,000 Convents in the Imperium we've never heard of... but you would think they would have spread the Sisters around a bit, given 6 Orders Militant, if this were an option. They didn't, and these 2 Convents are all that are listed as belonging to them, so I am inclined to believe that these are it.

The Prefectories are their next-largest organizational structure. Unless the Convents are housing exponentially larger forces... there's still not more Sisters than there are Space Marines.

There's one massive flaw with what you just wrote - your own quoted definition of a preceptory contradicts the idea of there only being two convents.

According to what you quoted, a Preceptory is a group of convents working together under a Canoness with a total population of 1000 Sisters. According to what you just wrote above, there are only two convents - on Ophelia and on Terra. If those two convents were the only convents, then there would be exactly one Preceptory in the entirety of the Sisterhood. And so the lone Preceptory would be synonomous with the Sisterhood, which would in essence make the Preceptory redundant.

Clearly there is more than one Preceptory, which means that there are more than just two Convents.

Further, even if there was only one Preceptory, a basic reading of the definition of a Preceptory that you provided strongly suggests that there are more than two Convents. If there were exactly two Convents in the entire Imperium, then the definition would likely mention that number. Instead, it uses the much more nebulous "individual convents", implying that there is a considerably larger number than just two.

Eumerin wrote:Not really. iirc there are "millions" of worlds in the Imperium. Logically speaking, there ought to be at least millions of Sisters.

Why? Not every single world within the Imperium has an Ecclesiarchal presence, and as proven not even the major Ecclesiarchal sites (the cathedral on Bladen was described as being of sector-wide importance) always have Sisters protecting them.

Eumerin wrote:For what it's worth, the most that we get out of the new WD 'dex numbers-wise is that some of the "Orders Minoris" only have a hundred or so sisters (with the implication being that most are much larger).

It actually sounds like the bit from the 5E rulebook, though I have yet to get my hands on the new WD to study what it offers us in terms of fluff. Do you have a full quote?

Eumerin wrote:Also, the timeline mentions that in 799.M41, nine seperate orders curb-stomped the Red Corsairs when the latter launched an attack on the original home of the Sororitas.

That's not very surprising. An attack on San Leor is an attack on the very core of the Sisterhood, and I'd actually expect way more minor Orders to react to such an affront. Those nine were probably just the ones who got there first.

Melissia wrote:Then six major orders that are tens to hundreds of thousand strong depending on the tides of fate.

I have never heard of such numbers. The 2E Codex explicitly mentions that each of the major Orders on average currently numbers between 3.000 and 4.000 - with the only explicit modification to this being the Third War of Armageddon, which has lowered them even more (now down to 300 for the Martyred Lady). But if you have any additional sources...?

By the way, does the WD Codex mention six major Orders again, or is it still down to three?

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:Except the non-militant branches recruit from outside the Scholas. The modern version of the Schola Progenium is primarily martial.

The Schola is the only recruitment source for the Adepta Sororitas as a whole - as I quoted from the Codex in my previous post. Every Sister is a fighter (relatively speaking - but they are supposed to be able to defend themselves and their convictions), even the non-militant ones, and in the Schola they all go through a nigh-identical training, occasionally receiving special training depending on the Superior's assessment. It is only when they actually begin the novitiate that their final purpose is determined.
This is also how the Sisters test their young, of course. Depending on how they do in the various courses, the progena selected to become Sororitas will later get assigned to an Order befitting the talents they've shown during their time in the Schola. Unsurprisingly, this kind of selection necessitates that all future novices go through the same kind of basic training for proper comparison.

And this is why it's so easy for individual Sisters to switch from one Order into another, by the way. Note, for example, that Prioress Helena the Virtuous ("SoB" special character) is actually a Famulous, but still ends up leading the Orders militant into battle. Usually it's (crippled) Sisters Militant transferring to one of the non-militant ones, of course, rather than the other way around. I assume it would be rare that a Sister Hospitaller/Famulous/Dialogous/Pronatus/Sabine thinks she is better-suited in the militant Orders ... though not unthinkable.

Though Sisters spend many long hours in solitude or training, they are nonetheless part of a wider organisation than their own Order, and for this reason see themselves as members of the Adepta Sororitas as much as their own Order. Furthermore, it is not uncommon for a Sister to transfer from one Order to another, particularly in the case of a Sister who has become wounded or too old to fight transferring from an Order Militant to one of the non-militant Orders, such as the Orders Famulous or Hospitaller.
- from Andy Hoare's Liber Sororitas

The effective value of MEQ forces is always greatly overestimated, and the size of the conventional forces always understated. The entirety of the loyalist Space Marines have a total rough value of one tenth the annual tithe of Armageddon (one Space Marine is worth twelve regular soldiers, there are at most one million space marines (more likely around 900,000, due to most chapters being more or less under strength), and Armageddon is tithed for one hundred million soldiers on an annual basis), for instance.

And still the entire Segmentum Pacifica Navy and millions of Guardsmen were unable to take on the single Space Wolves Chapter.
Whilst you can always throw millions of Guardsmen at Marines (or Sisters), the problem is that MEQ are (1) easier to transport and (2) able to project a much greater force on a smaller area. It's all highly circumstantial, of course, but even a single company of Marines can do a lot of damage when it's just placed on the right spot. Plus, it's not like the Ecclesiarchy couldn't always add millions of Frateris Militia to their MEQ - so it would make sense to restrict the availability of the latter.

Not saying it is so, mind you. In this instance I'm just theorycrafting additional reasons for why the canon facts are as they are.

Eumerin wrote:There's one massive flaw with what you just wrote - your own quoted definition of a preceptory contradicts the idea of there only being two convents.

This is actually a small retcon "issue". There's the two primary convents, Terra and Ophelia VII - but in addition to that, over the years it has become customary to call every Sororitas base a convent (equivalent to a Marine monastery), regardless of size or how long it exists.

That said, the "hierarchy" in the WD Codex places "Order" straight above Preceptory, so you'd still end up with the fact that 1.000 Sisters is the largest non-entirety organizational unit of one of the few major Orders (of which there are 3 or 6, depending on how you want to interpret the 5E rulebook snippet).

Psienesis wrote:Because it offers us a concrete number to work from. There's 1000 Sisters in this Prefectory, and a Prefectory is the second-largest organizational structure the Orders Militant have.

The Guard's second largest organizational structure is the Regiment, which often have only a thousand to several thousand soldiers-- therefor the Imperial Guard must also be small.

Melissia wrote:

Psienesis wrote:Because it offers us a concrete number to work from. There's 1000 Sisters in this Prefectory, and a Prefectory is the second-largest organizational structure the Orders Militant have.

The Guard's second largest organizational structure is the Regiment, which often have only a thousand to several thousand soldiers-- therefor the Imperial Guard must also be small.

Yeah, they are really small. What's countless billions of solders formed into millions of Regiments anyway

On the discussion what you have now...
Don't use any material from old 2'nd and 3'rd edition codexes for Sisters as new will get out soon and probably make fluff and rules of the former ones obsolete. Let's just say that they outnumber the Marines, as they are leading the Imperial Creed crusades of Faith. Adn you can't lead a crusade with several hundred solders.

Lynata wrote:

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:Except the non-militant branches recruit from outside the Scholas. The modern version of the Schola Progenium is primarily martial.

The Schola is the only recruitment source for the Adepta Sororitas as a whole - as I quoted from the Codex in my previous post. Every Sister is a fighter (relatively speaking - but they are supposed to be able to defend themselves and their convictions), even the non-militant ones, and in the Schola they all go through a nigh-identical training, occasionally receiving special training depending on the Superior's assessment. It is only when they actually begin the novitiate that their final purpose is determined.

You quoted the 2e codex. Modern fluff has the non-militant orders drawing from local populations, and the Schola Progenia being primarily military institutions.

Can we not conclude that the SoB are simply a neglected faction in dire need of some love and better fluff? Clarification at the very least...

Personally, I love the gals and can't wait for them to go plastic someday. I also think that they should have much larger numbers than what is being named... I mean, they're the military arm of the Ecclesiarchy; the strongest branch of government in the Imperium after the Administratium and Munitorium, they should have some real power-projection!

Brother Coa wrote:

Melissia wrote:

Psienesis wrote:Because it offers us a concrete number to work from. There's 1000 Sisters in this Prefectory, and a Prefectory is the second-largest organizational structure the Orders Militant have.

The Guard's second largest organizational structure is the Regiment, which often have only a thousand to several thousand soldiers-- therefor the Imperial Guard must also be small.

Yeah, they are really small. What's countless billions of solders formed into millions of Regiments anyway

The difference being, of course, that the Imperial Guard has countless regiments, but the Orders Militant have only 3 or 6 Orders which are actually capable of fielding a Prefectory.

Brother Coa wrote:On the discussion what you have now... Don't use any material from old 2'nd and 3'rd edition codexes for Sisters as new will get out soon and probably make fluff and rules of the former ones obsolete. Let's just say that they outnumber the Marines, as they are leading the Imperial Creed crusades of Faith. Adn you can't lead a crusade with several hundred solders.

Older canon still applies as long as it is not contradicted by newer stuff - and the Crusades/Wars of Faith have already been mentioned back in the 2E 'dex, meaning already factored into the equation.

Even if you go by the 5E rulebook you are left with "a few thousand" Sisters for the major Orders and ~100 for the "many" minor ones. This isn't contradicting the 2E stuff, it's reaffirming it. Wars of Faith simply don't happen all that often, and the vast majority of Crusades has no involvement by the Orders Militant at all (don't let the term fool you).

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:You quoted the 2e codex. Modern fluff has the non-militant orders drawing from local populations, and the Schola Progenia being primarily military institutions.

And what GW studio material exactly is that from?

The Orders Militant do have some real power projection alright - just not everywhere at the same time. They are not the Frateris Templar, which the Ecclesiarchy had to give up specifically because of the military might they posed.

I much prefer a "small" elite cadre of highly mobile special forces rather than millions of garrisoned Guardsmen in power armour, and the books seem to agree.

Brother Coa wrote:

Melissia wrote:

Psienesis wrote:Because it offers us a concrete number to work from. There's 1000 Sisters in this Prefectory, and a Prefectory is the second-largest organizational structure the Orders Militant have.

The Guard's second largest organizational structure is the Regiment, which often have only a thousand to several thousand soldiers-- therefor the Imperial Guard must also be small.

Yeah, they are really small. What's countless billions of solders formed into millions of Regiments anyway

On the discussion what you have now...
Don't use any material from old 2'nd and 3'rd edition codexes for Sisters as new will get out soon and probably make fluff and rules of the former ones obsolete. Let's just say that they outnumber the Marines, as they are leading the Imperial Creed crusades of Faith. Adn you can't lead a crusade with several hundred solders.

1)The BT make crusades with 50 marines sometimes.
2)You use id4chan as a source. Dictating what other people use as a source is hypocritical of you.

Regardless, how many minor orders there are is not actually stated. Almost no fluff exists regarding minor orders.

Thats obviously GW's standard open for allowing players to invent their own... which is to say its purposefully vague.

There's one massive flaw with what you just wrote - your own quoted definition of a preceptory contradicts the idea of there only being two convents.

If you can find more than the Convent Prioris on Terra or the Convent Sanctorum on Ophelia VII, I'm all ears.

It goes like this, in order from smallest to largest units:

Mission-> Commandery-> Preceptory-> Order

The two Convents house 3 Orders a piece. I'm not certain why the definition of Preceptory contains mention of containing convents, since there's only two mentioned by name, unless the usage of the term (in this instance) is not a reference to their "official Convents" but, rather, "a group of nuns... with guns".

Don't use any material from old 2'nd and 3'rd edition codexes for Sisters as new will get out soon and probably make fluff and rules of the former ones obsolete.

When that book comes out, I will use that book. Until then...

Again, though, I don't care if there are more or less Sisters than there are Space Marines. It simply makes more sense to me that there be more SM than there are Sisters, because the SM is a broadly-skilled shock trooper/Heavy Infantry unit designed to be deployed in an extremely wide range of battlefields against a staggering array of enemies.

The Sisters of Battle are exceptional women of unimpeachable faith and devotion to the Emperor and His Imperium. No special bio-constructs, no added super-organs, no hypno-indoctrination. Trained to deal with a wide-range of enemies in specific settings. While highly-trained, far more specialized than the Marines. Also, arguably more-exceptional than even those who survive the training and surgeries that make boys into Space Marines. In the grim darkness of the 41st millennia, pure, true faith is probably harder to find than a friendly Tyranid.

Just to throw in some more old fluff in the form of actual citations, in the hopes of contributing to eliminating the confusion:

"All of the Orders of the Sisterhood are divided between the two principle worlds of Earth and Ophelia VII. The Adepta Sororitas have an extensive Convent on each of these planets which are home to members of all Orders. For most of the time, members of the Sisterhood will not be occupying their Convent but are dispatched across the Imperium in accordance with their various duties. However, the Convent still bustles with new recruits and organisational staff, even when most of its inhabitants are fighting a War of Faith or employed in some other major effort.

[...]

When Sebastian Thor ascended to the position of Ecclesiarchy there were roughly 4,000 Daughters of the Emperor under his command. Upon founding the Adepta Sororitas these warriors were split between the Convents of Ophelia VII and Terra (the Convent Sanctorum and Convent Prioris respectively). With recruits passing through the hands of’ the Schola Progenium once again, the Adepta Sororitas’ ranks soon grew to over 10,000 fighters and the Ecclesiarch succeeding Thor (Ecclesiarch Alexis XXII) split each of the Convents into two Orders each, founding the Orders Militant of the Ebon Chalice, Valorous Heart, Fiery Heart and the Argent Shroud.

Two and a half thousand years later, two more Orders were created by Deacis VI ( the Orders of the Bloody Rose and Sacred Rose) and the Convent buildings were extended to accommodate almost 15,000 warriors each. In recent years, the number of the Militant Orders' members has declined slightly and each Order now number between 3,000 and 4,000 Battle Sisters, of which perhaps 500-750 will be trained as Seraphim. These warriors are spread throughout the galaxy in various battle zones and on extended tours of duty. The size of an Order waxes and wanes irregularly, depending on the quality of recruits availble and battle losses. On occasion an Order may number no more than a few hundred warriors, all fighting the enemies of the Emperor while at other times it may reach a peak of six or seven thousand warriors, with much of the Order fighting in distant wars but still leaving a reserve of several thousand Battle Sisters and Seraphim that can be despatched if needed."
- 2E C:SoB

+

"As numbers within the Orders Militant waxed and waned, varying from a couple of thousand warriors to many thousands, the subsidiary convents began to take on an importance all their own. These small, scattered bases often proved ideal for reacting to requests for assistance from the Ordo Hereticus, and so over time became independent of the Orders that had founded them, establishing their own traditions, doctrines, livery and titles. Though the original six Orders are by far the most numerous and active of the Orders Militant, the new Lesser Orders Militant, or Orders Minoris, became especially useful in the frequent purity sweeps and pogroms instituted by the Witch Hunters."
- 3E C:WH

+

"There are three major Orders of Adepta Sororitas, the fighting strength of each numbering several thousand warriors, as well as many lesser sisterhoods comprised of around a hundred or so Battle Sisters. An Order's warriors rarely fight as a single unit, but instead are commonly spread throughout the galaxy in various battle zones. Nevertheless, the Sisters of Battle rank amongst the Imperium's most trusted defenders, for their unshakeable faith can overcome all but the most terrible foes."
- 5E Rulebook

(it should be noted that the concept of Minor Orders was already part of the 2E Codex - before anyone is making the false assumption that they would falsify its numbers)