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Bournemouth, UK

Is the £15 million profit before or after the dividend comes out?

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I see he sites the Hobby Center Manager training as a reason for better success in the latter half of the year, This seems unlikely. they could do with more thoroughly un-trained lay-abouts who just serve to make you feel welcome, i dont like the whole "im asking you questions that are obviously aimed at finding out what i should try to sell you hard" air i get from most shops.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/07/27 10:08:01


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UK

arkapello wrote:I see he sites the Hobby Center Manager training as a reason for better success in the latter half of the year, This seems unlikely. they could do with more thoroughly un-trained lay-abouts who just serve to make you feel welcome, i dont like the whole "im asking you questions that are obviously aimed at finding out what i should try to sell you hard" air i get from most shops.


QFT

There is no where else you can go to experience that kind of hard sell though.

   
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Kroothawk wrote:
Eeps wrote:1.2 mil total compensation for a CEO of a 120mil revenue business is flying rodent gak insane FWIW, very much out of whack with market remuneration practices.

Kirby wrote:Dividends have returned. I am as pleased as you are.

Tom Kirby gets 860,854 GBP plus suggested further 382,601 GBP as dividends and £462,000 GBP pay, total 1,705,455 GBP this year.
That is 1.38% of total revenue or 11.14 % of operating profits. Quite a lot for one person in a publicly quoted company!
Guess NOONE is as pleased as Kirby about the dividends!


On the other hand Tom Kirby took a massive personal risk by heading and mostly financing the management buyout of GW and then turning it into the behemoth that it became. Even if GW is not quite a big as it was a few years ago, this is still, from a purely business standpoint, a success and you can't blame him for still owning 5% of the company.

No one came here for a lecture on communism.

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ceorron wrote:There is no where else you can go to experience that kind of hard sell though.

I wouldn't say that. I've never heard of redshirts going door to door or making unsolicited phone calls telling you you can buy a Space Marine army.

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Holdenstein wrote:On the other hand Tom Kirby took a massive personal risk by heading and mostly financing the management buyout of GW and then turning it into the behemoth that it became. Even if GW is not quite a big as it was a few years ago, this is still, from a purely business standpoint, a success and you can't blame him for still owning 5% of the company.

No one came here for a lecture on communism.


And now that it's become a behemoth, let's run it into the ground and fething kill it!

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Wolfstan wrote:Is the £15 million profit before or after the dividend comes out?


Before.

A company can declare a dividend whatever level of profit it made. Companies have been known to borrow money to pay a dividend, or cancel a dividend even if they have cash on hand.

The share price tends to go down if there is no dividend, or go up when a dividend is declared. (Which is why GW's share price hase just gone up.)

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Noble of the Alter Kindred




United Kingdom

No one came here for a lecture on communism.


Where is the lecture?
Could use some intellectual stimulation.


 
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




Kroothawk wrote:
Backfire wrote:What they are clearly lacking at the moment is "gateway game".

Given their current state of mind, the next 40k starter box is a limited release sold out the first week
Kilkrazy wrote:The starter sets are loss leaders, but they don't seem to be working.

Are you sure that your definition of loss leader is correct, given the price of 78 € for the starter box?
Wikipedia wrote:A loss leader or leader is a product sold at a low price (at cost or below cost) to stimulate other profitable sales.



I would be extremely surprised if they weren't. Content to price ratio (even with price increase) is much better than in their mainline range. Of course the production volume, simpler design etc. possibly bring down the production costs a bit, but nevertheless.

Recently, they have been increasing the prices of starter sets and battleforces relatively more than main range products. I think their logic goes like "Well, even with price increase they are still somewhat better deals than our regular boxes, so people will buy them anyway". I think this is not very good logic. Especially as many battleforces are pretty crappy as starter sets.

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Bloodwin wrote:For what it's worth the two ways GW need to improve were addressed, they need to be better and faster at getting their message and product out there. The White Dwarf secret embargo is a stupid idea. They need to stop thinking that White Dwarf is the greatest advertising asset they have. They need to get their products on the internet ASAP so that the information hungry fans can get excited. They need to do this so they they get their message out and control the message rather than let independent forums try to guess what they are doing. They then need to focus on making the most money out of the Horus Heresy while it is popular because it's ludicrous that such a massively popular range of books doesn't have cool toy soldiers for fans to buy.


I couldn't agree more with you. I know I've beaten these two points to death.

But it's hard to believe they're taking that approach with marketing and WD in 2011. I'm 100% for controlling the message, and I think big spends in traditional advertising are wrong for GW. But I'm not sure how they think their current approach will get them to their goals.

Similarly, it's hard to believe they've ignored the HH opportunity for this long. The HH books were/are the biggest breath of fresh air the 40K IP has had in many years, and they have nothing to show for it in their core business. At the same time they're looking for a catalyst to reverse the sales decline, they ignore the HH opportunity over a lot of strange, self-imposed rules about that part of the IP.

I want GW to be a healthy company, but their behavior is perplexing at times.

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Soviet Kanukistan

I was told that GW management set sales ($) targets at +3% in fiscal of 2010-2011. It was my source's understanding that if +3% was achieved, (edit) volume would be flat with the previous years, and >+3% in sales across the chain would result in real "return to growth". This suggests that after being spread over the entire range and adjusted proportionally by item (based on historical performance), the price increases for 2010-2011 only amounted to a 3% price increase SYSTEM WIDE.

Not only did this threshold not happen - but sales ($) actually decreased by 3%. After factoring in price increases, volume seems to have dropped by 6%. I find it worrisome that they can't even meet a +3% target - I don't see how Kirby can spout off this gak about "return to growth".

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2011/07/27 15:58:01


 
   
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You know I never understood how the people who run this company don't get that cutting back on these facilities so that they run with the bare minimum, while jacking up the prices sky-high is a good thing.

Its stuff that lecturers teach first year Economic students as things that noone with a brain would seriously consider for christs sake. I mean you can't look at the numbers and deny theres a problem there forever... can you?
   
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If the only goal is to pay dividends over the short term, then I'd say that their behavior has been more or less justified.
   
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PsyberWolf wrote:It's interesting to note that GW's board is made up of 5 people. The chairman Kirby, CEO Wells, CFO Roundtree and 2 "independent" directors. It always baffled me about the talk related to the years of service of the directors, in previous financial statements, and how they felt they could still be independent... I just made the connection today. Apparently, the guidance for publically traded companies is that an independent board member should have no more than 9 years on the board. The thought is that after such a long time of service they are no longer independent but rather have become almost an "insider" and thus not objective. Kirby and Wells have argued that they are still independent and should stay. It is clear to me that these 2 directors are "yes men" on the dole to the tune of £50,000 as of this year - an increase of almost 32%.

That brings total compensation for the board to over £1 mil - a near 17% increase. I am all for execs being adequately compensated for their labors but when your company has declining revenue and declining profits shouldn't you forgo a pay increase?


What percentage of the Company do these two men own in the Company? The Board of Directors is not to be independent of management, its to give the shareholders a voice in the management of the Company. The SHAREHOLDERS elect these directors. Each share of common stock allows you one vote. Its safe to say if these men are large investors in the Company, why shouldnt' they have a say in the operations of the Company? I believe on the last page I saw someone show how much they earned in Dividends the past year. I would believe they own a considerable share of the Company if they were able to collect nearly 1.6M pounds of the total dividends paid when they only have a profit of 15M pounds. I don't see them being on the board as a problem. If you don't want them there, buy their stock and rally to get them removed. If everyone here were to buy 1 share of GW stock I'm sure that you could elect someone from DAKKA to be on the board. I mean there are how many users on the board?

[/sarcasm] 
   
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45,970 as of right now.

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The largest shareholders are investment trust funds iirc. I suspect that the "independent" directors are there to protect the interests of such companies.


 
   
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RatBot wrote:
... but when your company has declining revenue and declining profits shouldn't you forgo a pay increase?


Heh. A heh heh. Ha ha ha ha. Ha ha ha ha ha ha! HA HA HA HA HA! Ha ha, hooo... Yeah.

I mean, they should, but that'll never happen. I keep hearing all the time about companies with dwindling profits and generally shrinking, but the top executives damn sure get their raises and bonuses!


THe reason they get their bonus is due to the fact they have invested in the Company. Most US companies are Sole Proprietorships, LLC's, Partnerships, or S-Corps. So if the Company has a $1M Net income, the owners will all get a "Bonus" or what ever you want to call it because the earnings flow through to the owners. The IRS website has had several articles showing that most of the US Companies have had their Directors, Presidents, and other top management return compensation over the last 2 years. Also, many of these Companies offer "Stock Options" which is where CEO's and other top Executives really make out - their employment contract says they have access to X shares per year that they can buy at a stated price in their employment agreement (usually something like $1 as there were new rules that recently came out about Stock Options). They are then able to exercise the option and sell these shares on the market. So if the CEO is able to drive the price up to $50 a share and he has 10,000 options he just made $490,000. This my friend is how they make their big bonuses. Options are nice because they align management's goals with that of the investor which is why they limit the number of shares and will stage out the total shares they get (usually starting out low and getting more options each year so that the incentive is more long term growth).

[/sarcasm] 
   
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United Kingdom

That still suggests the primary motive for their short term policy making is self interest, rather than the long term well being of the company.

 
   
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Reading everyone's response I can only thing of GW's new slogan should read, "We've upped out standards. So up yours." (Shamelessly stolen from the 7 UP commercials 5-7 years ago).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kilkrazy wrote:45,970 as of right now.


Why don't we all just go buy 1-2 shares and elect someone to serve on their board. Its a lot easier to manage the system when you're inside it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/07/27 14:02:01


[/sarcasm] 
   
Made in gb
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United Kingdom

Given their base standards, and I mean base in more ways than one, upping the ante is not good news for the customer.


 
   
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Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:That still suggests the primary motive for their short term policy making is self interest, rather than the long term well being of the company.


Usually they stagger it out so that if you're going to get 105,000 shares over 6 years you'll get 5K year 1, 10K year 2, 15K year 3, 20K year 4, 25K year 5, and 30K in year 6. This should put management's interest in line with the investors.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
WarOne wrote:
H.B.M.C. wrote:And saying that you can get cheap AoBR Dreads off eBay and Bitz sites doesn't change the fact that the current plastic Dread kit is the same as what it was years ago, yet is more expensive.


I think that's because the shareholders (in reality, just 2 people and a cat...jointly owned by the two people) want more money, so they raise the prices to pad their pockets.


They are a public company. Yes they want more money. Name me one public company that doesn't want more money? Better yet, invest your money with me. I'll use it and won't give you any return on your investment what-so-ever for a couple of years and then I'll give it back to you. Does that sound fair to you?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Holdenstein wrote:
Kroothawk wrote:
Eeps wrote:1.2 mil total compensation for a CEO of a 120mil revenue business is flying rodent gak insane FWIW, very much out of whack with market remuneration practices.

Kirby wrote:Dividends have returned. I am as pleased as you are.

Tom Kirby gets 860,854 GBP plus suggested further 382,601 GBP as dividends and £462,000 GBP pay, total 1,705,455 GBP this year.
That is 1.38% of total revenue or 11.14 % of operating profits. Quite a lot for one person in a publicly quoted company!
Guess NOONE is as pleased as Kirby about the dividends!


On the other hand Tom Kirby took a massive personal risk by heading and mostly financing the management buyout of GW and then turning it into the behemoth that it became. Even if GW is not quite a big as it was a few years ago, this is still, from a purely business standpoint, a success and you can't blame him for still owning 5% of the company.

No one came here for a lecture on communism.


I'm just a bit confused on how the salary for Kirby is calculated:

He gets

860,854 for ???? I would assume this is his salary?
382,601 for dividends
462,000 in pay - would this be a bonus or the sale of stock options what is this really

You're throwing out numbers that don't necessarily say much. Total compensation should be calculated as Wages + Bonus. Not Wages + Bonus + Benefits + Fringe Benefits (Company vehicle, Company Travel, etc) + Dividends Received + Stock Sold - Cost of Stock. Also you compare your expenses to Total Revenues. Comparing to total Net Income does not provide any meaningful info to anyone. My wife has a business and her salary is 80% of Total Revenues and accounts for almost 300% of the net income for the Company.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/07/27 14:36:54


[/sarcasm] 
   
Made in de
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Wolfstan wrote:Is the £15 million profit before or after the dividend comes out?

They make a profit of £ 15.3m and pay dividends of £ 19.67m, so drain the company of £ 4.37m.
AlexHolker wrote:
ceorron wrote:There is no where else you can go to experience that kind of hard sell though.

I wouldn't say that. I've never heard of redshirts going door to door or making unsolicited phone calls telling you you can buy a Space Marine army.

Don't give them ideas!
Kilkrazy wrote: Companies have been known to borrow money to pay a dividend, or cancel a dividend even if they have cash on hand.

GW did that as well.
keezus wrote:Not only did this threshold not happen - but sales ($) actually decreased by 3%. After factoring in price increases, volume seems to have dropped by 6%. I find it worrisome that they can't even meet a +3% target - I don't see how Kirby can spout off this gak about "return to growth".

In his words, the company has so much money, they can't spend more on expanding, therefore better give the money to him
boyd wrote:I'm just a bit confused on how the salary for Kirby is calculated:

He gets

860,854 for ???? I would assume this is his salary?
382,601 for dividends
462,000 in pay - would this be a bonus or the sale of stock options what is this really

You're throwing out numbers that don't necessarily say much.

Again:
His pay is 462.000 GBP (15% more than last year BTW).
He already agreed to a dividend of 45p per share for this year, giving him another 860,854 GBP. He proposed another 28p per share, giving him another 382,601 GBP.
This gives him a total of 1.7m company money.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/07/27 15:51:34


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Kroothawk wrote:
Wolfstan wrote:Is the £15 million profit before or after the dividend comes out?

They make a profit of £ 15.3m and pay dividends of £ 19.67m, so drain the company of £ 4.37m.


So, sales went down, therefore let's drain the company to create dividends and artificially inflate our stocks?

On one hand, that sounds like an unsustainable practice. On the other, it sounds like business as usual for a corporation (with the end goal of keeping investors happy).

It sometimes feels tough when we see that we, the fans, are clearly not a priority for this company. But that's not news, GW's been to big to think of its fan base first for a while now.

But I wish they could pretend better.

 
   
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Soviet Kanukistan

After thinking about it a bit more... Assuming a linear trend and extending the 3% decrease in sales dollars and 3% annual price adjustment back to 2006, and using 2006 as a baseline year - we have a cumulative:

14.1% decrease in sales
15.9% increase in prices distributed across all pricing bands adjusted for volumes based on historical movements

Combining these two yields an overall decrease of 25.9% in volumes - as clearly, decreased sales aren't making up the difference in price. More worrisome is that, during this same period, 40k standard army size increased from 1700 to 1850 (10%). Fantasy standard army size increased from 2000 to 2500 (20%). This means that for the same product sold, we're getting fewer armies out of the mix. Add on top of this, stealth price raises in terms of repacks and recut kits (I used a conservative stealth increase of 5% over 5 years - considering the new codexes have every decreasing points values!) - Assuming that buying trends of retained customers stayed the same - this would represent a loss in customer base of 38%.

My math may be wrong, but at first blush, that can't be good.
   
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Based on these figures of (I'm assuming based off of the current thread) decline, does anyone more buisness-minded here know how much longer they can maintain this descent before it will start to impact the company? Like a ballpark of 5 or 10 or 20 or 50 years or whatever?

Also, my thanks to the more worldly people on here who can decipher the figures for us laymen

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It will depend on their ability to not frighten customers off with the constantly increasing prices.

We can imagine a scenario in which GW make only one single model a year, a solid gold, life size Space Marine ten feet tall, and it is bought for £120 million by Roman Abramovich. But that will never happen.

Instead, there will come a point where the price increase by GW becomes counter productive. For example, they increase prices by 10% but sell 11% fewer models, and revenue decreases as well as unit sales.

Once that line is crossed they will have to stop price increases for a while, and hope that customers have not been permanently frightened away.

It's possible that every customer who decides to avoid GW because of high prices will buy other companies' products. The nightmare scenario for GW is that those people might start to recommend competing products in place of GW. The network effect could go to work for other companies, or even go into reverse.

We've seen a huge jump of interest and support for Infinity in the past few months, sparked by the GW price rises and the Infinity Week at Beasts of War.

That means lots more players are now able to find lots more players of Infinity. They are not so likely to recommend GW to friends. The next step is for those people to start actively recommending against GW.

The other thing GW can do is to up their game. Produce better rules and models.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/07/27 17:23:43


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We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
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Soviet Kanukistan

Kilkrazy wrote:Instead, there will come a point where the price increase by GW becomes counter productive. For example, they increase prices by 10% but sell 11% fewer models, and revenue decreases as well as unit sales.

Uh... aren't they already at this point? The fact that they raised prices 3% (aggregate) AND had decreased revenue from sales of 3%

At the current rate of decline, considering they had 15M GBP profits, they could conceivably hang on for quite some time... the trouble is that once you raise your price past a certain amount, your volumes are going to drop like a stone - and as each non-sale is worth more, each one hurts proportionally more. The current report doesn't show this point as having been reached yet. I suspect that if this tipping point is passed, we'll all notice it well in advance of any official report issued by GW.

YMMV, but in my neck of the woods, 40k is dying a horrible death - on average, from what I can see at the two "flagship" GW's, on vet's night, attendance is down 80% from the heyday in 2005-2006 - these stores used to be rammed full of hobbyists... the last time I passed by the mall store on a Thursday night, there was one guy there playing a staffer, and one guy there playing his buddy. At my two local independant FLGS, 40k is down to 5% and 0% respectively. Fantasy has never been healthy at our FLGS as far as I can see... it seems to be hovering on life support - neither of the owners are ordering in new product much anymore, as there is simply no demand. While I am certain this is not representative of the health of the entire hobby, once GW hits that final tipping point - as it stands now, I don't see them having the ability to quickly react, as they've cut too much staff in search of efficiencies and not retained enough cash in the bank as a cushion for that rainy day.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/07/27 17:30:43


 
   
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Pullman, WA

Kilkrazy wrote:We can imagine a scenario in which GW make only one single model a year, a solid gold, life size Space Marine ten feet tall, and it is bought for £120 million by Roman Abramovich.


I'd bet they've already struck the molds, and have plans in the works to eventually make a Finecast version for 150 million using the tears of endangered species. This will, of course, strictly adhere to their 97% quality ratio.

On a slight side note, does anyone else know of a battle game similar to 40K in scope? I knoe KoW is competing with WHFB, but Infinity isn't quite the same scale as 40K, and I haven't heard of anything similar. Just curious if 40K is getting the same competition system-wise as WHFB is.

Imagine the feeling when you position your tanks, engines idling, landing gear deployed for a low profile, with firing solutions along a key bottleneck. Then some fether lands a dreadnought behind them in a giant heat shielded coke can.

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darkPrince010 wrote:
Kilkrazy wrote:We can imagine a scenario in which GW make only one single model a year, a solid gold, life size Space Marine ten feet tall, and it is bought for £120 million by Roman Abramovich.


I'd bet they've already struck the molds, and have plans in the works to eventually make a Finecast version for 150 million using the tears of endangered species. This will, of course, strictly adhere to their 97% quality ratio.

On a slight side note, does anyone else know of a battle game similar to 40K in scope? I knoe KoW is competing with WHFB, but Infinity isn't quite the same scale as 40K, and I haven't heard of anything similar. Just curious if 40K is getting the same competition system-wise as WHFB is.


Isn't Mantic's 'Warpath' supposed to be on the same battle scale?

   
 
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