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Excellent post Ssgt Carl.

40kers are quite oblivious to the wider world of the Hobby. Masses of grey minis are almost exclusively a 40k phenomenon. You simply dont see it with historicals and other wargames, usually. So for people to just claim that painting isnt necessarily part of the Hobby because a fair amount of people in their own tiny niche of it also dont paint is just absurd.

Of course painting is part of it, its integral. You can define the hobby for yourself (whatever that means) all you want, and of course you have every right to play the game however you like, but dont try to redefine something as it pertains to the wider world. Wargaming is about assembling, collecting, playing and painting miniature soldiers. Thats just what it is. No one is forcing you to do all those things, but thats still what it is.

I'm gunna have to slightly disagree then. I never said it was not part of the hobby. i love to paint and am painting my first army.

What integral is up for debate and is pretty much opinion based so there is no right or wrong. Yes I'm aware that GW does the whole you must be painted to play in our stores, but not everyone has access to GW stores. I dont and any LGS in my area doesnt care much about 40k. Were tolerated as long as we dont get in the way of the MTG guys.

Im not trying to redefine anything. What i take issues with is it appears that certain "elitest" are basicly trying to dictate how people play warhammer. Wether you like it or not thats how some of us play. You can't make us stop, all you can do is not play us and to be honest im fine with that. There are certain individuals in this thread (not naming anyone in particular) that if there in person behavor is anything like what they come across on the internet. I wouldnt find it a great loss to not be able to play them.

As far as i go i dont look at your army wether its painted/not painted or all the models are what you see is what you get or not. Its going to be based on you. Are you fun or not. do you presume to tell others what to do (i don't consider giving tips or advice in a friendly manner telling people what to do)

wowsmash wrote:
What integral is up for debate and is pretty much opinion based so there is no right or wrong. Yes I'm aware that GW does the whole you must be painted to play in our stores, but not everyone has access to GW stores. I dont and any LGS in my area doesnt care much about 40k. Were tolerated as long as we dont get in the way of the MTG guys.

What individual store policies are arent really relevant. I wouldnt agree with a store not allowing you to play with unpainted minis, thats just dumb. However, any self respecting gaming club should make it a point.

wowsmash wrote:Im not trying to redefine anything. What i take issues with is it appears that certain "elitest" are basicly trying to dictate how people play warhammer. Wether you like it or not thats how some of us play. You can't make us stop, all you can do is not play us and to be honest im fine with that. There are certain individuals in this thread (not naming anyone in particular) that if there in person behavor is anything like what they come across on the internet. I wouldnt find it a great loss to not be able to play them.

Play the game anyway you want, I dont care. Id still play against your unpainted army. In the back of my mind Id still think youre a tad lazy, but whatever. Im not a jerk so I wouldnt say anything. However, just because you dont paint your minis does not mean that painting isnt an inherent part of wargaming, because it is. If you dont want to partake in that, thats cool, just dont say it isnt a part of the hobby. This isnt MTG or a boardgame. 40k doesnt stand alone, it is a part of a much wider subculture that has a history and tradition, like it or not.

Im not trying to tell anyone what to do. Im just stating a fact as to what miniature wargaming is as a hobby.

wowsmash wrote:
As far as i go i dont look at your army wether its painted/not painted or all the models are what you see is what you get or not. Its going to be based on you. Are you fun or not. do you presume to tell others what to do (i don't consider giving tips or advice in a friendly manner telling people what to do)

This kind of made me think a game I played several years ago. It was a western skirmish where each player had about 4 figs. The gamemaster had allowed more slots than he had finished figures for. A few players were given bare metal cowboys. At several points players had difficulty figuring out whos was whos and figuring out what they were carrying. The experience was undeniably worse for everyone than it would have been if the figs were painted. I'm not saying it was a horrible experience or that it was the end of the world, but there is more to miniatures wargaming than whether or not your opponent is fun. If that's all there was to it, then we would just sit across from each other and see who rolled highest the most times. This story isn't to try to tell you to paint or to game differently, just as something to think about. I think, for the most part I agree with the spirit of the point you are trying to make.

Las wrote:Excellent post Ssgt Carl.

40kers are quite oblivious to the wider world of the Hobby. Masses of grey minis are almost exclusively a 40k phenomenon.\

I guess you don't play Warmachine?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

baboon wrote:That augustus5 is taking this personally because he may play with unpainted armies, and to show, he's not in my league.

After he called me out I figured I'd go see if he had images of unpainted stuff in his gallery, and low and behold, SURPRISE, he does. Now I don't know for sure what they are, but obviously there was enough pride in them to upload and display 4 images of unpainted stuff. Why would someone do that if they weren't proud of it? See whats happening here is I came on strong in this thread, got called on it and actually exposed augustus5 as one of the unpainted players the op was posting about not liking in the first place and augustus5 got offended.

Not that I'm in the habit of validating myself to baboons, but those pictures are in my gallery because the army was for sale in the swap shop. It sold last week and the pictures have not been taken down. I post pictures of the models I post to my swap shop thread periodically.

I don't have pictures posted of any of the armies I play, unpainted or otherwise.

Bottom line is it's a game. It's supposed to relieve stress not increase it. If you take everything so seriously all the time it's not enjoyable to be round.

augustus5 wrote:

Las wrote:Excellent post Ssgt Carl.

40kers are quite oblivious to the wider world of the Hobby. Masses of grey minis are almost exclusively a 40k phenomenon.\

I guess you don't play Warmachine?

No, I dont. But Id say it falls under a similar category. Sci-fi/fantasy games tend to be the biggest offenders.

Las wrote:

augustus5 wrote:

Las wrote:Excellent post Ssgt Carl.

40kers are quite oblivious to the wider world of the Hobby. Masses of grey minis are almost exclusively a 40k phenomenon.\

I guess you don't play Warmachine?

No, I dont. But Id say it falls under a similar category. Sci-fi/fantasy games tend to be the biggest offenders.

I think you're right, about it being a sci-fi/fantasy thing. We don't have a regular historical wargamers group at the FLGS I frequent, but at any event I can remember, I have never seen an unpainted army among that crowd. Maybe there is so much realism that goes into those types of games that the people who play all share a desire to have their figures represent the real world equivalent as closely as possible.

I'm just keeping my army true to the background. All the artwork in my codex is in black, white, and grey, so...grey minis are more fluffy than your painted ones. :3

I really don't see unpainted minis as a problem, although I can understand why some people would.

I have quite a few unpainted models. Some of them are unpainted because I'm sick of painting that model (I have 300+ Necron warriors.) Some are unpainted because I do not believe that my painting skills are up to the task. (Like my terminator chaplain, I don't think I can do such an awesome model justice.) Others are unpainted because I haven't gotten to them yet. (If I'm working on painting my chaos lord, how can I pain SM tac squads?) I don't like to field unpainted models, but a lot of times I don't have a choice.

Now a friend of mine is an amazing painter, and refuses to field unpainted models, but he doesn't care about other people's armies. Another friend of mine is an atrocious painter, I cringe when I see his models. He knows this, so a lot of his models are unpainted. They look better in gray than if he gets at them with a paintbrush.

I had never heard of people refusing to play unpainted armies until I joined Dakka. I had never dreamed that someone would insult another human being simply because said person did not want to (or could not) sit down for hours and hours and paint minis, because lets face it, painting is a pain. Even if it's easy, it still takes a long time, and thats time I can spend playing Minecraft.

If you want to paint your minis, that's cool. I love seeing painted armies. If you don't want to play unpainted armies, that is ok as well. But, DO NOT insult another person because they don't spend hours painting their miniatures. If that's what you enjoy, fine. But play nice with the other kids.

Warhammer 40,000 is a fun game. Really, really fun. There are very few things I enjoy as much as playing 40k. Some people just want to enjoy the game, and attempting to force them into spending hours doing something they don't enjoy is going to achieve nothing more than driving them away from the game. If they just wanna play, that is just fine.

Well.. one thing, I would challenge the assertion that an unpainted model looks better than one painted, however badly the painted model is completed. I'm pretty average (probably below average looking at some of the other armies I have seen) but managing to get a unified look across a force, and consistency, means that it will always look far superior on a tabletop to a grey horde. And actually, having spent a lot of time working in GW and then an Indy, even young kids who are new to the hobby and haven't learned any real painting techniques beyond an undercoat are able to make something that looks better than unpainted.

Of course I would never not play someone who hasn't painted their force, but I find that other things tie in with coming up against someone who consistently doesn't bother to paint their minis:
- lack of respect for models on the tabletop, both of the player in question and their opponent. I have seen models get removed and then thrown in the dead pile like so much refuse. I once had a perilously perched, unpainted master of deathwing (actually, just half a model) tumble down some stairs and break my assault squad. The guy was really apologetic about it, but I don't think that would have happened had even the slightest bit of effort been put into it. I have seen this happen dozens of times over the years, even if its just when a horde of unpainted and unarmed (literally no arms) orks get shovelled into a close combat and end up knocking some of your models to the ground and damaging them.
Because they often have no concept of having to be careful about their own minis, it's far more likely a wayward sleeve will go over the tabletop and send one of your minis falling to their doom off the edge of the table. Again, this is just based on observations over the years.
- overall aesthetic. The best games I have ever played, the most cinematic and the best looking, have been with 2 painted armies on well made terrain. I am sure this is the same for many people. 'Turn signals on a landraider' the 40k comic used to joke about coke bottles and the like being proxies for Carnifexes, but that joke was based on reality. I have seen such situations and worse, while it doesn't destroy enjoyment of the game, I think it handicaps it.
- Finally, with a painted army (and again, I don't think it has to be well painted) you are much, much less likely to be that guy on the sidelines with no opponent during pick-up games or social nights.

My only counter argument to this, and this was raised by Chibi earlier in the thread, is that some of the new armies these days are so massive that players simply get overwhelmed. Understanding how much time it is going to paint those blocks of 50 infantry for WFB, like being stood at the base of a mountain, many people I think simply don't bother. I can understand this sentiment - for many of us, we started playing when the model counts were much lower, and if you are able to build up an army over the years and then add to it then that mitigates some of the time/effort issues. That being said, there are better paints these days (the likes of washes and even army dipping) which let you get results far, far more quickly than was the case when I started the hobby.

So! In conclusion, yet it's not the be-all-and-end-all, but I think there are definite benefits to having a painted force on the tabletop, and overall it is definitely a preferential experience if you can manage it.

@flaming_spider

Awesome, this is exactly what I was trying to say. Agree whole heartily.

Pacific wrote:Well.. one thing, I would challenge the assertion that an unpainted model looks better than one painted, however badly the painted model is completed.

You would change your mind if you saw these. I swear he dips them in house paint and calls it good. You can barely recognize some of the models anymore.

I don't want to sound like a jerk, but the OP, your post sorta reeks of smugness.

I'm happy you have a 900 point army that is "FULLY PAINTED", and I'm sorry you see a few guys who have been in the hobby longer than you that don't have fully painted armies, but have you ever considered they also likely have more armies and more minis than you do?

I have ~2500 necrons, ~3500 tyranids, and ~4000 grey knights. My necrons are about 80% painted, tyranids about 60% painted, and Grey knights just have a coat of chain mail armor on them washed with black and if some new player came up to me and judged me for not having my grey knights fully painted... well he'd get a pretty bad rep in our close knit gaming community.

Don't be so self righteous because you're battle force is painted and you had the time to do it , where the other people may have other obligations in their lives other than sit down and paint.

Again, I'm sorry if I came off as a jerk, but nobody has any right to tell anybody how to enjoy the hobby.

I agree with Cryage.
I'm a highschool student, working 2 jobs. I don't have time to paint all of my armies.
I have 4000+ of tau, 2500 IG , 1500 daemons, 1000 eldar jetbikes, and the beginning of a skitarii army. I'd say that at least 1/2 (in the skitarii, 100%) of my models have been converted or customized in some way and the only things I have painted or even plan on painting anytime in the near future are about half of the IG, 200 points of my tau, and the jetbikes, but only because they're my adepticon army, otherwise I would never have brought paint anywhere near then.

I love the hobby, but I am an awful painter and never have time to sit down and paint something, especially since I'm busy converting.
At my local store, no one cares if the other persons army is painted or not. I mean, sure, if someone has an exceptional army, it will be praised, thats just how things work, but if its not painted, no one makes a big deal about it.
And, honestly, my army may not be painted, but there is a story behind every model. When we play, its not just throwing dice, we're playing out a battle, telling the story of all the characters involved. My IG tanks have kill markings on the barrels of their cannons, and I could tell you what every single one of them was from. I had a guardsmen fall off of a tall piece of terrain once while in an assualt with a farseer. His arm fell off, but I stood him back up on the terrain and ended up killing the farseer. I replaced the arm with a converted bionic arm that I made and he now holds his chainsword in one hand, and the head of an eldar in his other.
My unpainted grey blob has much more character than your 900 points of painted eldar.
So tell you what, if you want to find time to sit down and paint my 10000 points or so of minis for me to your standards, then be my guest, but until then, I will continue to play unpainted becaues I enjoy the game.

Cryage wrote:I don't want to sound like a jerk, but the OP, your post sorta reeks of smugness.

I'm happy you have a 900 point army that is "FULLY PAINTED", and I'm sorry you see a few guys who have been in the hobby longer than you that don't have fully painted armies, but have you ever considered they also likely have more armies and more minis than you do?

I have ~2500 necrons, ~3500 tyranids, and ~4000 grey knights. My necrons are about 80% painted, tyranids about 60% painted, and Grey knights just have a coat of chain mail armor on them washed with black and if some new player came up to me and judged me for not having my grey knights fully painted... well he'd get a pretty bad rep in our close knit gaming community.

Don't be so self righteous because you're battle force is painted and you had the time to do it , where the other people may have other obligations in their lives other than sit down and paint.

Again, I'm sorry if I came off as a jerk, but nobody has any right to tell anybody how to enjoy the hobby.

At least you got something painted.

From my perspective, I'm one of those guys that will only field a fully painted army. I know others that really have time constraints and do not have a painted army. I'm cool with that. These are not the people I have any problems with in gaming with them.

Then there are those who are embarrassed/afraid about their lack of painting skill.

Painting is subjective by nature. Not everyone paints golden daemon quality or even table top quality. There is no true right way of painting, but many of these people are not told about this and only see how daunting this task could be. I do hope that more people do try to paint their armies but I understand why they do not and will openly game with them as well.

What people in my region are getting somewhat annoyed are the people that pick up the "army of the month" quickly put it together and that is that. I am not talking about the Timmy 10 year olds. I'm talking about the young bucks to the old nerdy neck beards. Almost most of these people have the WAAC metaphorically Tattooed on their foreheads. And WAACing is the only thing that they know in their pathetic lives. The rest are just plain LaZy... yes with a capital Z to emphasis how lazy they are. And for some strange reason some of them are even proud of their "laziness". Go figure.

What I believe is happening is that some of us old timers are bundling all 4 different groups of non painters that I have posted here into one larger group which I would consider an inappropriate action on their part.

You play against the opponent, not the models on the table. Two painted armies are great to see, but this is the sign of the times. Accept that as you will.

A friendly game with a good nature opponent with an unpainted army is certainly better than one who is total jerk with a painted one.

^^Agree, it is fantastic to see a fully painted army vs a fully painted army, I really do love seeing it

Most of the nid units that i field are painted, the unpainted ones are just some left overs that I don't use too frequently, so when i square off against my buddies and both armies are painted it looks amazing... but as you said, i'd never judge the person accross from me if it isn't painted.

I do also know what you know about the flavor of the month players. I was worried my group was going to call me that as I dove headstrong into the GK's, but it's because:

a.) I didn't have a space marine army
and
b.) I love paladins

Basically any fantasy game I play im generally always either a paladin or an undead(necromancer) character... I choose necrons when I first started and i was so eager to paint them and play them (since both were so easy lol), but I grew tired of the old codex and moved on to nids where I loved the swarm/cc army (a direct contrast to the necrons), and then onto GK's which I love playing the smaller squad/tactical combat - so I think all niches are filled for me - anyway i'm drifting off subject... I think the biggest thing is, find an army you ENJOY and painting (whether you're good or bad) won't be a chore but something that is enjoyable.

I remember when I first started, I spent entire weekends , up all night watching Sons of Anarchy seasons 1 & 2 while I painted them and I loved it

I dont personally have anything against people who play with unpainted armies, considering I know some extremely busy people who dont have the time to sit down and paint as long and as extensively as I do. And certainly I will not refuse a game, or deny my friends a game just because they have unpainted armies.

However I cant stand to play with unpainted minis but that's just me. For example, when I first started gaming, I was playing against IG for the first time and the only unpainted model I had was the Trukk my Nobz would be riding in, and that seriously irked me. But my opponent praised me and wanted to shake my hand. Why? Cause I was the first Ork player he's met who's even bothered to paint his army.
Im into the hobby for its gaming, fluff AND painting (though not so much on conversions), and at the end of the day, you cant deny the excitement of two, fully-painted armies going at it on a beautifully painted terrain-filled battlefield. It's just how I play, and its how the majority of my friends play, and we have a blast.

That being said, I have my own question for those who love doing conversions, but do not like painting them. Why go to the effort of some awesome conversions, if you're not going to fully realise the model's awesomeness with a paintjob? Im not picking on people, Im just genuinely curious.

Flaming_Spider wrote:

Pacific wrote:Well.. one thing, I would challenge the assertion that an unpainted model looks better than one painted, however badly the painted model is completed.

You would change your mind if you saw these. I swear he dips them in house paint and calls it good. You can barely recognize some of the models anymore.

Haha well I would be interested to see them perhaps you could sneak a photo in next time you play him?

I remember when I first started, I spent entire weekends , up all night watching Sons of Anarchy seasons 1 & 2 while I painted them and I loved it

Totally with you on this one! I think there is nothing better than after a hard day at work, putting your feet up, putting something on the TV or some music on, and doing some painting Really, for me I think it's almost a form of meditation, I'm no 'Eavy Metal painter but I find the whole thing very relaxing.

Whats with this assumption that people with fully painted forces dont have as much of a life and/or responsibilities as those that do?

I work two jobs, am a uni student, have a myriad of other interests and goings on, hell 40k is one of the smallest parts of my life. But I still find time to paint, theres always time for anything you just have to find it. TEMPORAL DISCIPRINE.

Nuul Nalio wrote:I agree with Cryage.
I'm a highschool student, working 2 jobs. I don't have time to paint all of my armies.
I have 4000+ of tau, 2500 IG , 1500 daemons, 1000 eldar jetbikes, and the beginning of a skitarii army. I'd say that at least 1/2 (in the skitarii, 100%) of my models have been converted or customized in some way and the only things I have painted or even plan on painting anytime in the near future are about half of the IG, 200 points of my tau, and the jetbikes, but only because they're my adepticon army, otherwise I would never have brought paint anywhere near then.

Did you buy all those armies in one go? What ever happened to the old buy a kit, paint it, buy another kit, paint it.

Ooh, my favorite monthly thread, and one I feel rather strongly about!

I don't like the process of painting that much. To be honest, it feels like work even though -while not an advanced painter in any sense- I've finally come to a level of painting where I can paint with reasonable speed and I like the results (see my gallery). However I feel that an absolutely integral, and (for me) most enjoyable, part of the game is the marvelous spectacle of painted armies on a beautiful game board so I have few guidelines I follow.

1) I never put unpainted models on the table
2) I never put unfinished terrain on MY table (sometimes you can't help it at the FLGS)
3) I might give a game to an unpainted army, but I'll probably avoid gaming with them in the future. Life's too short for uninspiring gaming.
4) I'd rather play a smaller game or two with painted figures than a big game with unpainted.

I only get to game every other week, so I don't see the point in comprimising on the above. If someone doesn't care about the visual spectacle of the game, that's ok, but it's obvious that our persepectives of gaming are so different that it's not really worth our time to play each other.

As a result of all this, I've started a club where we don't ever play with unpainted figures. However, we always prepare extra painted forces so anyone can play with us even if they don't have painted figures.

Mah hobby

Mah grey horde

I feel strongly obligated to post photos of a gigantic unpainted horde.

These threads are always kind of amusing. People tend to take their views to seriously and with so much conviction. So a bit of background. I started playing at the time Rogue Trader come out. Took a 5 or so years break at one point but back in this. So been doing this a bit now.

How do I view the original question. To me this is a game. I still have models I bought in early '90 that I use in games and have not painted. Shock and awe! The aim for me is to play a game.

Well painting. I would like to think that I'm at least medium level painter. Otherwise all these years of doing that have not been very effective. I however don't like to paint. I find a lot of things more interesting than painting and frankly will do them instead many a time. I also will not speed paint or paint under the quality than I can. I did that once and regretted a lot. However I do prefer having painted model on board if I can choose between the two. Also I don't like to use other peoples painted models (preferring to do things myself).

So on to models. My interest was in gaming. In general I look to get most of the units in the army (as long I like the rules of unit) and want to try different combinations. Thus I field in most cases armies that I use are 10-80% painted. I do have an one army which by and large is fully painted, but I like to play several armies leaving some of them unpainted. I also own perhaps a cubic meter of models of different scales and games and most likely I won't ever manage to paint them all.

As far as playing others. I play against people not armies and don't really care that much. In many cases painted looks better on field but the player is the one that has most effect on whether the game is enjoyable or not.

For Addendum. Lunahound I think the ponies looked neat and certainly would be on the list of worthwhile quoting on this thread easily .

Edit: You can see an army that has been ~2 years on going project on my first ever video batrep (I'm the LatD player). Yeah I play Epic currently.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KbBJqCVRqxc

Upon reading this thread
and this thread 4th post http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/240/375209.page

I realized something...
If those Marines weren't painted in different chapters ( or painted at all )
They could easily be shared between the different chapters. saving probably 70%

LunaHound wrote:Upon reading this thread
and this thread 4th post http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/240/375209.page

I realized something...
If those Marines weren't painted in different chapters ( or painted at all )
They could easily be shared between the different chapters. saving probably 70%

Yeah, when I saw that the first thing that popped into my head was an unflatering description of the owners level of intelligence, but it's their hobby, so I know my judgement isn't important in even the smallest measurable degree.

dripwelquest wrote:

LunaHound wrote:Upon reading this thread
and this thread 4th post http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/240/375209.page

I realized something...
If those Marines weren't painted in different chapters ( or painted at all )
They could easily be shared between the different chapters. saving probably 70%

Yeah, when I saw that the first thing that popped into my head was an unflatering description of the owners level of intelligence, but it's their hobby, so I know my judgement isn't important in even the smallest measurable degree.

Thats not what i meant.
I meant having things painted makes GW extra money if they are all different factions and cant be shared as easily.

LunaHound wrote:Upon reading this thread
and this thread 4th post http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/240/375209.page

I realized something...
If those Marines weren't painted in different chapters ( or painted at all )
They could easily be shared between the different chapters. saving probably 70%

I respect your views and don't want to be one of the partisans for either side in this issue, but to me that's missing the point. WH40k is not a pure tactical exercise (anyone who treats it purely as that is fooling themselves) a lot of the enjoyment of a game surely comes from the imaginationland side of things - ie those aren't game pieces like checkers, they are little future space fascists and fungus bikers etc. If you are relying purely on your own imagination to transform your generic grey marines from being BT to ultramarines to dark angels to crimson fists and all the rest, with no visual component, why have the models themselves?

My point is, everyone who says that the game is what matters to them, and they don't feel a need to use painted models, do you feel the need to have the 'correct' models, or models that look vaguely appropriate, or any models at all?

LunaHound wrote:

dripwelquest wrote:

LunaHound wrote:Upon reading this thread
and this thread 4th post http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/240/375209.page

I realized something...
If those Marines weren't painted in different chapters ( or painted at all )
They could easily be shared between the different chapters. saving probably 70%

Yeah, when I saw that the first thing that popped into my head was an unflatering description of the owners level of intelligence, but it's their hobby, so I know my judgement isn't important in even the smallest measurable degree.

Thats not what i meant.
I meant having things painted makes GW extra money if they are all different factions and cant be shared as easily.

How exactly does paint colour prevent faction jumping?

Because a painter / collector would field multiple standalone armies.

Where a player would just add them together and end up with less total models since they are all gray.