Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

When I was a kid, if my father spanked me/hit me, whatever, It never taught me anything.

I never thought "Oh wow, I shouldn't do that again", I always just thought how ridiculous it was for him to do that.

If I do something you don't want me to do, tell me and explain why, and I won't do it again if I agree with you.

I was never taught discipline by being hit, but maybe I'm different from other people. If or when I have kids, I would reserve the smack for only intentional acts of disrespect. I want to teach my child what my father didn't teach me, and god damn was I lucky that I was pretty damn bright as a kid compared to others in my situation.

I would never want him to grow up like I did, and I'll teach my children with words and wisdom more than my hand.

KingCracker wrote:I honestly think you just didnt want to answer my question honestly, because I was correct in my point

No, you did not. Your comparison was a massive failure no matter how hard you want to try.

My sister is not a trained professional. She's a random girl who schpadoinked some jerk-off, got knocked up, married him, got abused by him, divorced him, then schpadoinked another dude and got knocked up by him too, then married him. The banker, on the other hand, is a trained professional whom has more likely than not gone through the education system-- they've EARNED their status and they are fully qualified for their job. I have more experience with children than she does, EVEN HER OWN CHILDREN. The banker on the other hand does banking as their job, their LIFE. My sister takes every chance she can to not raise her children and instead foist them on other people, particularly me and our mother. If a banker tried to do that with their banking profession, they'd get fired. Really, there is no part of the scenario you presented which is applicable. None. At all.

The question was therefor invalid. You are not right. You are so wrong that the logic you used is almost painful to my brain. It is not logic. It is anti-logic. If it comes in to contact with real logic, it implodes. As it has done.

Your caught up on your sisters failures as a parent(apparently) and me saying professional banker/parent. Stop dancing in circles and saying I failed at my point. My point, plain and simple, was that YOUR LOGIC on this discussion was and is wrong and invalid. So please, for the 3rd time, answer my original question. Other wise, your just wasting your time pretending Im wrong.

KingCracker wrote:Of course I realize there are different ways to punish kids, I dont instantly start the spankings and mouth slappings when my children do something wrong. Infact I havnt had to spank either of them in weeks. Nose on the wall works pretty well, sitting on the couch and doing nothing for a few hours really gets to my son. The point is though, noses on the wall and time outs only work some of the time, sometimes swatting their ass is the only way to truly get that point across

... for some people. Plenty of parents get by just fine without spanking.

That's really the ridiculous thing in this thread, everyone declaring there's only one way to raise kids, and that's the way that worked for them (or stranger, the way they think will work for them when they have kids).

Some parents find spanking works for them. Some parents don't. It is totally okay that different people do things differently.

KingCracker wrote:Your caught up on your sisters failures as a parent(apparently) and me saying professional banker/parent.

Wait, you're mad that I'm using the comparison you gave instead of some other, hypothetically better comparison that you haven't given yet?

Really that is true, and has been mentioned a few times over. What works on one kid, doesnt automatically work on others. And like Ive said, I dont just dish out spankings just cause, I punish my kids in many different ways, that seem fitting to what they did. But I can honestly say, that spanking seems to work better, more times then just trying to talk to the child. Ive seen many of my friends grow up just fine, and had grown up getting spankings, and Ive seen MORE friends, grow up with real life problems, when their parents just wanted to talk things out.


Also, alot of what I was saying was countering Melissia, which has turned into a "I dont want to play along, so your a doody head" so, before it turns into a flame fest, Im just ignoring her.

Your kids learn nothing, and don't understand anything when all you say is "DON'T DO THAT CUZ I SAID SO" and hit them.

You earn respect and understanding when you talk to a child first, and then at the end threaten them if they do it again, they'll get smacked.

Gotta get them to listen beforehand for that to work. The brats scream if you so much as look at them wrong, no matter what they're doing-- ESPECIALLY if they're doing something they know is wrong. Little ****s, trained by bad parenting and bad grandparenting.

The older one less so thankfully, but the younger one? Feth...

My dad always whooped my ass if I did something bad but I usually deserved it.
Also, Is anyone else disgusted by the Judge beating his daughter for using the internet? I know I am, If my step-dad tried some dumb gak on me like that (note she is 16) i'd sock him right in the jaw. Idgaf if he's a judge.

Not only is he a judge, he's a Family Law judge.

I love Karon, Let his wisdom shine through. Also man, change your avatar back. The new one gives me the maximum gaks.

KingCracker wrote:Really that is true, and has been mentioned a few times over. What works on one kid, doesnt automatically work on others. And like Ive said, I dont just dish out spankings just cause, I punish my kids in many different ways, that seem fitting to what they did. But I can honestly say, that spanking seems to work better, more times then just trying to talk to the child. Ive seen many of my friends grow up just fine, and had grown up getting spankings, and Ive seen MORE friends, grow up with real life problems, when their parents just wanted to talk things out.

Yeah, is cool.

I can't say I've seen any greater number of kids come out bad because of not spanking, or because of spanking. I dare say compared to the things that really matter, spanking just doesn't impact how they turn out. YMMV, though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Karon wrote:Your kids learn nothing, and don't understand anything when all you say is "DON'T DO THAT CUZ I SAID SO" and hit them.

You earn respect and understanding when you talk to a child first, and then at the end threaten them if they do it again, they'll get smacked.

Maybe. Or to gain control of the situation you can issue an immediate punishment, including a spanking when they don't follow your instructions, and then when the situation has calmed down you can explain what went wrong.

YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAS.

AVATAR CHANGE!

sebster wrote:Yeah, is cool.

I can't say I've seen any greater number of kids come out bad because of not spanking, or because of spanking. I dare say compared to the things that really matter, spanking just doesn't impact how they turn out. YMMV, though.

As I said, it's just a tool. Like any tool though, it definitely can be overused...

Just have to use the right tool for the situation...

I will be Rakim Allah for now.

I don't support any "shoot first, ask questions later" sort of approach with your CHILDREN.

They're humans. As long as they are not very young (at which point, striking them shouldn't even come into your mind) they will understand it mentally, and it will show later.

If they are stubborn and continue to disrespect/ignore you after you have explained the situation to them, a stern glare or hand to the mouth is your last resort.

Karon wrote:I will be Rakim Allah for now.

I don't support any "shoot first, ask questions later" sort of approach with your CHILDREN.

They're humans. As long as they are not very young (at which point, striking them shouldn't even come into your mind) they will understand it mentally, and it will show later.

If they are stubborn and continue to disrespect/ignore you after you have explained the situation to them, a stern glare or hand to the mouth is your last resort.

And coming from a kid with no children. Yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa Go ahead and talk to a 2-3 y/o and see where that gets ya. A swat on the butt fixes those problems real fast. But Im seriously done with this thread, you lot are making my head spin. Come back in 10 years after youve all had some children time, and see how much you laugh at yourself

Karon wrote:If they are stubborn and continue to disrespect/ignore you after you have explained the situation to them, a stern glare or hand to the mouth is your last resort.

"Dad glared at me, oh noes!"
Honestly, Most bratty kids and spoiled feths I see just need a good ole' ass whoopin'.
It's too bad they can pick up the phone and say some bs and have you arrested for disciplining them, and I know: "HITTING YOUR KIDS IS NEVER THE ANSWER!"
Well, Putting that melon-fether in a corner for 20 minutes doesn't work very well either.

KingCracker wrote:

Karon wrote:I will be Rakim Allah for now.

I don't support any "shoot first, ask questions later" sort of approach with your CHILDREN.

They're humans. As long as they are not very young (at which point, striking them shouldn't even come into your mind) they will understand it mentally, and it will show later.

If they are stubborn and continue to disrespect/ignore you after you have explained the situation to them, a stern glare or hand to the mouth is your last resort.

And coming from a kid with no children. Yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa Go ahead and talk to a 2-3 y/o and see where that gets ya. A swat on the butt fixes those problems real fast. But Im seriously done with this thread, you lot are making my head spin. Come back in 10 years after youve all had some children time, and see how much you laugh at yourself

You can discredit me all you want. You can go ahead and teach your children like your father did you, that was my fathers excuse for his ways.

Leonus Cohol wrote:

Karon wrote:If they are stubborn and continue to disrespect/ignore you after you have explained the situation to them, a stern glare or hand to the mouth is your last resort.

"Dad glared at me, oh noes!"
Honestly, Most bratty kids and spoiled feths I see just need a good ole' ass whoopin'.
It's too bad they can pick up the phone and say some bs and have you arrested for disciplining them, and I know: "HITTING YOUR KIDS IS NEVER THE ANSWER!"
Well, Putting that melon-fether in a corner for 20 minutes doesn't work very well either.

I see where this thread has devolved now.

Since a lot of childless people are giving voice to their child rearing philosophy’s here I guess I’ll weigh in some more…

I think something also needs to be said for consistency.

IMO the reason most "soft parenting" fails is because the parents are unwilling to set clear boundaries and unwilling to stick to their guns when those boundaries s are crossed. If you make a rule and only enforce that rule 50% of the time, the child will break that rule every time they think they can get away with it.

This also is true for the severity of the punishment. If crossing the street in front of the house is something that is disallowed, and they do it anyway. The punishment should be either the same every time, or should get progressively worse each successive time.

Also the more time spent with your kids will increase the old you have over them. The more you play with them when they are little the more they will look up to you when they get older. Then your disproval will carry more weight.

Watching TV with your kids does not count as spending time with them IMO

biccat wrote:
I was responding to your absolute statement that people who don't have empathy are restricted from society. That statement is false, therefore any conclusions one draws from that statement are, at best, questionable.

I don't draw any conclusions from that statement, it was a aside as to what we (at least attempt) to do to those without empathy.

biccat wrote:As someone who was raised on spankings and being hit by my parents for doing something wrong, I can assure you that I have never beat others to get my way. I have never tried to apply the parenting lesson of "might makes right" to the real world in the manner you describe.

As someone who was also raised on this rational neither have I. That doesn't change the fact that that's the lesson you teach kids when you hit them, and it doesn't change the fact that this is a bad lesson.

biccat wrote:There are also examples of "soft parenting" that have led to kids who are violent and abusive. Should we use your rationale and blame the soft parents for their kids engaging in violence?

No, but I wouldn't use this reasoning. There's a multitude of factors that go into raising a child and whether or not you hit them is only one of those, but once again that doesn't change the fact that hitting them teaches a bad lesson.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

CoI wrote: People, expecially children, associate pain with bad things.

I don't think that's true at all, I associate pain with getting hurt. In fact I think I would more likely associate pleasure with doing bad things, followed, I would hope, with guilt and remorse.

When you hit a child they don't think "I did a bad thing" why would they? they think "what I did displeased Mummy/Daddy, so they hit me" but "Mummy/Daddy is good" therefore "it's okay to hurt those who annoy you"

KingCracker wrote:

KingCracker wrote:
I can tell them once, hey cut that gak out, and they DO, why?


Because there terrified of you, what happens when they don't have you to fear? What happens when they try to apply your parenting lessons* to the real world?

*might makes right, beat others to get your way. etc

What happens when they are out of my reach of fear? Simple, they behave like well mannered children, and have done so many times, if you read my whole post, you would of caught that part, about schools and such. Its not fear at all, its knowing how to act. Period.
.

But then there not are they, they of course still have you there to get mad at them. I meant more along the lines of "if they get bigger than you", in all honesty they'll probably be fine, people are able to pick up some good moral lessons from anywhere. The problem is that your not teaching them good moral lessons, in fact you're probably contradicting a lot of them.

CoI wrote:They forget the incident, but remember the lesson

That's the problem.

My dad smoked, gambled, and drank when i was small...it lessened as I grew older but has now returned. I cannot respect such a man and wouldn't even flinch if he died. He hit and yelled at me too...merely for disobeying him...not ever because I am wrong. I would never hit my own blood. (except maybe my dad....and only if it wasn't against the law ) But like most of you, I agree my child(s) will need strong discipline and iron bound rules to live by, else they face consequences suitable for their actions. They can question my rules as they get older, but authority should always belong to the parents.

Karon wrote:

KingCracker wrote:

Karon wrote:I will be Rakim Allah for now.

I don't support any "shoot first, ask questions later" sort of approach with your CHILDREN.

They're humans. As long as they are not very young (at which point, striking them shouldn't even come into your mind) they will understand it mentally, and it will show later.

If they are stubborn and continue to disrespect/ignore you after you have explained the situation to them, a stern glare or hand to the mouth is your last resort.

And coming from a kid with no children. Yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa Go ahead and talk to a 2-3 y/o and see where that gets ya. A swat on the butt fixes those problems real fast. But Im seriously done with this thread, you lot are making my head spin. Come back in 10 years after youve all had some children time, and see how much you laugh at yourself

You can discredit me all you want. You can go ahead and teach your children like your father did you, that was my fathers excuse for his ways.

Leonus Cohol wrote:

Karon wrote:If they are stubborn and continue to disrespect/ignore you after you have explained the situation to them, a stern glare or hand to the mouth is your last resort.

"Dad glared at me, oh noes!"
Honestly, Most bratty kids and spoiled feths I see just need a good ole' ass whoopin'.
It's too bad they can pick up the phone and say some bs and have you arrested for disciplining them, and I know: "HITTING YOUR KIDS IS NEVER THE ANSWER!"
Well, Putting that melon-fether in a corner for 20 minutes doesn't work very well either.

I see where this thread has devolved now.

I'm just sayin, Putting Kids in the corner doesn't always work. If your kid flips gak constantly, I doubt looking at them or explaining something would do much. I think your methods are very nice an I wished they worked but thats just the way it is.
Kids simply do not give a feth.

Ma55ter_fett wrote:IMO the reason most "soft parenting" fails is because the parents are unwilling to set clear boundaries and unwilling to stick to their guns when those boundaries s are crossed. If you make a rule and only enforce that rule 50% of the time, the child will break that rule every time they think they can get away with it.

I agree that this is a problem, but it's a problem with those whom prefer corporeal punishment, too-- they often overpunish in some areas and underpunish in others, depending on their mood and how aggressive they're feeling at the time.

"Daddy's in a grumpy mood, so now he's spanking me with his heaviest belt for speaking out of turn, but a week ago he was in a great mood so I got away with a temper tantrum that broke a chair and all I got was a slap on the wrist!"

Inconsistency is a problem for all parenting styles, and nothing turns corporeal punishment into a worthless tool like someone dealing out punishment inconsistently. It happens just as often if not more often than "soft parenting" being used inconsistently...

Leonus Cohol wrote:Kids simply do not give a feth.

Most kids do care what their parents think, even if they try to deny it...

Some honestly don't, but usually that's because they have crappy parents to begin with...

But then there not are they, they of course still have you there to get mad at them. I meant more along the lines of "if they get bigger than you", in all honesty they'll probably be fine, people are able to pick up some good moral lessons from anywhere. The problem is that your not teaching them good moral lessons, in fact you're probably contradicting a lot of them.

You are missing the point completely. I dont get mad at my children, a parent shouldnt get mad at their children. And I certainly dont use that to punish them. As the parent, Im the law maker, Im the guidelines, Im the boundaries. Its my job to make sure they dont cross those and stay in line. Its not about them breaking a rule so now you feel PAIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Its about me being the parent. Im allowed to have fun with my kids, and make sure their childhood is at least as enjoyable as mine was, but when they break the rules or step out of line, I also have to be the one that punishes them for it. As a parent you cannot be pals with your child, Im not here to be their best friend and their buddy, they will step all over you f you pull that crap. You have to be a balance of everything to make them the best person they could be. So when its time to be nice and fun Dad, thats what I am, but when its time to lay down the law, thats what I do. It has nothing to do with anger and making them scared.

My kids behave when they arnt with me, because they know thats what a good person does, it has nothing to do with fear at all.

My father is a total waste of skin who ditched his family before i hit the 'difficult teen' stage. He would kick the everliving gak out of us at the slightest provocation. He once booted me square in the guts for locking the bathroom door (to use the toilet in peace) because it was my kid sisters bedtime and i was preventing her from brushing her teeth. He also crushed my fingers in the hinge side of the door when i slammed it (not in a fit of pique, but youthfull exuberance) his version of physical discipline was (to me) definately over the top.

On the other hand my mother only ever smacked me twice, maybe three times when i really deserved it, had been warned, and decide to push my luck. She's like the tiniest woman, probably weighs less than 100lbs wringing wet, so the pain wasn't the deterrent, more the fact that i pushed so far out of line that she felt the need to go against her usually gentle nature and physically discipline me. Usually the phrase 'I'm not angry, just disappointed...' was enough!

Good call KC.

Im allowed to have fun with my kids, and make sure their childhood is at least as enjoyable as mine was, but when they break the rules or step out of line, I also have to be the one that punishes them for it. As a parent you cannot be pals with your child

This in a nutshell.

The best I have heard it said was that kids are like animals, train them, and they usually turn out okay.

Kids that don't have boundaries and have little or no continuity or routine to follow often have no fething clue how to behave.

Interesting article here.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-15568442

Kragura wrote:As someone who was also raised on this rational neither have I. That doesn't change the fact that that's the lesson you teach kids when you hit them, and it doesn't change the fact that this is a bad lesson.

Well, given that you acknowledge the falsity of your assertion that kids who are spanked/hit act out in a similar way when they get older, I'm not sure what is left to discuss.

Spanking, slapping, or hitting a kid when they do something wrong (as punishment, not as a beating) doesn't teach them that "might makes right" or any other "bad lesson." (Assuming, of course, that might makes right is a bad lesson).

Say a 2-year-old reaches for the stove. Instead of slapping her hand and saying "No" in a stern voice, I grab her hand and say "no honey, that's not safe." Her response will be "Why?"

Now, do you want to go down the 20-minute "why" highway, or do you simply say "because I said so" (note that the 20-minute conversation will end up with "because I said so" and the 2-year-old won't remember any of it)? You're ending up with the same "bad lesson" you complained about ("might makes right"/defer to my authority because I'm the parent). But you don't get the deterrant effect.

Twenty minutes?


Usually it's more likie five seconds. "It'll burn you and hurt really bad."

Melissia wrote:Twenty minutes?


Usually it's more likie five seconds. "It'll burn you and hurt really bad."

Why?