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Rented Tritium wrote:

The "majority" of women who are raped don't report it and convince themselves it didn't count because of social pressures.

Does that make it not rape or unlikely?

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Matt, you have a fundamental misunderstanding of how rape OF ANY KIND works.

mattyrm wrote:No offense taken by the way...

I hope not, I wasn't intending to insult you, merely saying I find your views to be old-fashioned (mind you, I have some old-fashioned views myself).

mattyrm wrote:I mean, if you were on a jury, would you convict a 105lb woman for "raping" a 220lb man in the above situation?

That depends, is he a lovable gentle giant who wouldn't want to hurt a fly?

If it was a really aggressive guy, I wouldn't believe it no. But not all men are the same, despite what some people might claim Sure, the idea of an underweight, overly skinny woman (a woman who's 105 pounds at the average height of 5'6" is about 20-30 pounds underweight) intimidating a 220 pound bodybuilder (or fat guy) in to sex sounds ludicrous, but I've seen some mean, MEAN b****es who are very intimidating to be around, so I can very well see that such an aggressive woman (don't look at me, I'm not THAT mean) could intimidate a gentler man like that, even with size differences.

dogma wrote:

mattyrm wrote:
I can see your point, and I can see that some men would say "yes I have been raped and I am emotionally scarred by it" following a heterosexual rape, but seriously, what would the MAJORITY of men do in your non violence heterosexual rape scenario?

Finally, and this may have been brought up before, but the crux of rape is consent. Simply pressuring someone into sex, whereby that pressure is not based on coercion, is not necessarily rape.

Exactly! If we accept Tritiums ridiculously simplistic view of rape, that any and all pressure followed by consent counts as rape, then arent almost all of us both rapists and victims of rape?!

I mean, we have all been in bed with a woman who has said something along the lines of "oh...well, we have only known each other two minutes" or something, so they dont want to sleep with you. But after a bit of kissing and cuddling, 4 or 5 rebuttals and then a bit of ear nibbling you get the job done anyway, does that count as a rape!?

gak, I can imagine how it would look in court!

Defence - Can you tell us what happened next Miss Slackbreeches?

"Well, after dragging Matty back to my flat on the promise of a shag, tying him to the bed, showing him a selection of bizarre and distressing pornographic material, coating his entire body in marmalade, duct taping a burlap sack over his head, rubbing him for a bit, sucking him for a bit and then mounting him aggressively...... he.. ...... he raped me...

... for a few seconds.

Defence -


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Melissia wrote:

mattyrm wrote:No offense taken by the way...

I hope not, I wasn't intending to insult you, merely saying I find your views to be old-fashioned (mind you, I have some old-fashioned views myself).

mattyrm wrote:I mean, if you were on a jury, would you convict a 105lb woman for "raping" a 220lb man in the above situation?

That depends, is he a lovable gentle giant who wouldn't want to hurt a fly?

If it was a really aggressive guy, I wouldn't believe it no. But not all men are the same, despite what some people might claim Sure, the idea of an underweight, overly skinny woman (a woman who's 105 pounds at the average height of 5'6" is about 20-30 pounds underweight) intimidating a 220 pound bodybuilder (or fat guy) in to sex sounds ludicrous, but I've seen some mean, MEAN b****es who are very intimidating to be around, so I can very well see that such an aggressive woman (don't look at me, I'm not THAT mean) could intimidate a gentler man like that, even with size differences.

Yeah I don't disagree with you Melissa, all I was saying is that while Tritium has a point, and Tritium has a right to get upset about the issue because we are all different, my view is far more common than his, because most blokes would feel confident if they were being verbally "forced" into sex, they would be able to leave the scene or put their foot down about it. A woman (generally) has no such luxury.

I wasnt tyring to upset the bloke, or say he isnt entitled to his opinon, and if he felt that he had been raped in this way he would of course be able to report it and have it pursued legally, I was merely saying that my view is the more common amongst straight males, and it really is. Go ask some!

mattyrm wrote:

dogma wrote:

mattyrm wrote:

I mean, we have all been in bed with a woman who has said something along the lines of "oh...well, we have only known each other two minutes" or something, so they dont want to sleep with you. But after a bit of kissing and cuddling, 4 or 5 rebuttals and then a bit of ear nibbling you get the job done anyway, does that count as a rape!?
gak, I can imagine how it would look in court!
Defence - Can you tell us what happened next Miss Slackbreeches?

"Well, after dragging Matty back to my flat on the promise of a shag, tying him to the bed, showing him a selection of bizarre and distressing pornographic material, coating his entire body in marmalade, duct taping a burlap sack over his head, rubbing him for a bit, sucking him for a bit and then mounting him aggressively...... he.. ...... he raped me...

... for a few seconds.

Defence -

As always, Matty, you get the point across in a way worthy of the best humor writers.

Now may I suggest we all adjourn to a far calmer thread about religion vs. Science?

mattyrm wrote:
Exactly! If we accept Tritiums ridiculously simplistic view of rape, that any and all pressure followed by consent counts as rape, then arent almost all of us both rapists and victims of rape?!

My senior of college I was dating a freshman, we had a pretty good thing going, and so she was around my dorm room pretty much all the time; to the point of essentially living with me. We would both be doing homework, but because her homework was far less time consuming than mine, she would always finish first. This inevitably lead to her doing her level best to convince that there were more important, and interesting things than my capstone, I'd object for a little while, but eventually her arguments proved irrefutable.

dogma wrote:

mattyrm wrote:
Exactly! If we accept Tritiums ridiculously simplistic view of rape, that any and all pressure followed by consent counts as rape, then arent almost all of us both rapists and victims of rape?!

My senior of college I was dating a freshman, we had a pretty good thing going, and so she was around my dorm room pretty much all the time; to the point of essentially living with me. We would both be doing homework, but because her homework was far less time consuming than mine, she would always finish first. This inevitably lead to her doing her level best to convince that there were more important, and interesting things than my capstone, I'd object for a little while, but eventually her arguments proved irrefutable.

Impressive! She must have been captain of the debate team that one!

You know, reading what Matty wrote, I'm all of the sudden struck with this image of him, in chains, on trial for rape in an all female court.
The officers of the court, jury, and spectators all hot babes, of course, in tight clothes unbuttoned to the navel.
Let you imaginations take it from there.

dogma wrote:

mattyrm wrote:
Exactly! If we accept Tritiums ridiculously simplistic view of rape, that any and all pressure followed by consent counts as rape, then arent almost all of us both rapists and victims of rape?!

My senior of college I was dating a freshman, we had a pretty good thing going, and so she was around my dorm room pretty much all the time; to the point of essentially living with me. We would both be doing homework, but because her homework was far less time consuming than mine, she would always finish first. This inevitably lead to her doing her level best to convince that there were more important, and interesting things than my capstone, I'd object for a little while, but eventually her arguments proved irrefutable.

I assume you reported this horrific sexual assault to the nearest police officer post-haste?

Albatross wrote:

dogma wrote:

mattyrm wrote:
Exactly! If we accept Tritiums ridiculously simplistic view of rape, that any and all pressure followed by consent counts as rape, then arent almost all of us both rapists and victims of rape?!

My senior of college I was dating a freshman, we had a pretty good thing going, and so she was around my dorm room pretty much all the time; to the point of essentially living with me. We would both be doing homework, but because her homework was far less time consuming than mine, she would always finish first. This inevitably lead to her doing her level best to convince that there were more important, and interesting things than my capstone, I'd object for a little while, but eventually her arguments proved irrefutable.

I assume you reported this horrific sexual assault to the nearest police officer post-haste?

I'd give the bitch 20 years me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Relapse wrote:You know, reading what Matty wrote, I'm all of the sudden struck with this image of him, in chains, on trial for rape in an all female court.
The officers of the court, jury, and spectators all hot babes, of course, in tight clothes unbuttoned to the navel.
Let you imaginations take it from there.

If the prison looked like the court I'd be pleading guilty!

Albatross wrote:
I assume you reported this horrific sexual assault to the nearest police officer post-haste?

I was far too scarred, emotionally, and couldn't bring myself to do anything besides take a shower with the offending party.

dogma wrote:

Albatross wrote:
I assume you reported this horrific sexual assault to the nearest police officer post-haste?

I was far too scarred, emotionally, and couldn't bring myself to do anything besides take a shower with the offending party.

At which point she started rubbing herself off against the towel rail and I've suffered with shell shock ever since.

mattyrm wrote:
Exactly! If we accept Tritiums ridiculously simplistic view of rape, that any and all pressure followed by consent counts as rape, then arent almost all of us both rapists and victims of rape?

I didn't even REMOTELY say that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Again, what do you do when she says "I will say you raped me if you dont"

Where's your "luxury of leaving" now. What if it's your boss? What if it's someone in a position of social power? What if you really don't want it, but your social circle will make fun of you for not doing it.

Again, it is like you actually have no idea how men rape women. Women are not raped by physical force or just regular old pressure.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And you keep talking about how SUPER UNLIKELY it is even though 1 in 12 American men has been raped.

Rented Tritium wrote:
Again, what do you do when she says "I will say you raped me if you dont"

Go home.

Rented Tritium wrote:What if it's someone in a position of social power? What if you really don't want it, but your social circle will make fun of you for not doing it.

I really need to answer this one?

So, let me get this straight. You are worried about your friends taking the piss out of you, so you feth her, and that means you have just been raped?

That's called consent mate. You are such a precious flower that you cant take a bit of ribbing from your mates, so you thought "sod it" and shagged her. That aint rape. That's you consenting because your a pussy.

Seriously, Im really not trying to offend you, and you are entitled to your opinion.

I just think that the vast majority of men see things my way and not yours. Lets just leave it at that.

mattyrm wrote: So, let me get this straight. You are worried about your friends taking the piss out of you, so you feth her, and that means you have just been raped?

That's called consent mate.

That's not what the law says, and I don't agree with it either.

Being coerced in to sex is rape. It doesn't matter if you're male or female.

Rented Tritium wrote:

mattyrm wrote:
Exactly! If we accept Tritiums ridiculously simplistic view of rape, that any and all pressure followed by consent counts as rape, then arent almost all of us both rapists and victims of rape?

I didn't even REMOTELY say that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Again, what do you do when she says "I will say you raped me if you dont"

Where's your "luxury of leaving" now. What if it's your boss? What if it's someone in a position of social power? What if you really don't want it, but your social circle will make fun of you for not doing it.

Again, it is like you actually have no idea how men rape women. Women are not raped by physical force or just regular old pressure.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And you keep talking about how SUPER UNLIKELY it is even though 1 in 12 American men has been raped.

By women? In the way that you mentioned? That sounds very unlikely, to put it mildly.

Melissia wrote:

mattyrm wrote: So, let me get this straight. You are worried about your friends taking the piss out of you, so you feth her, and that means you have just been raped?

That's called consent mate.

That's not what the law says, and I don't agree with it either.

Being coerced in to sex is rape. It doesn't matter if you're male or female.

It really does Melissa.

As I said, I can fully see your point, in theory yes a straight man can be raped by having intercourse with a woman. But nothing is black and white, and that is why we have courts and jury's. You would really struggle to make a convincing case against a woman for rape in this scenario, and as I said earlier, this chat has gotten out of hand because Tritium is really pushing the boundaries of what is likely into increasingly fanciful and unlikely scenarios in order to make his point.

And do you remember what I said about this debate cheapening rape for the victims of actual rape?

If you define rape as consenting to sex after a little bit of pressure, than I am pleased to tell you I have been raped numerous times and have suffered no ill effects from it.

mattyrm wrote:in theory yes

In actuality, yes.

I'm not cheapening rape.

You, on the other hand, are now insulting people who have been raped because you don't think non-violent rape is actually rape.

Does your wife know matty?

AustonT wrote:Does your wife know matty?

Of course she does, she raped me on Tuesday.

Its alright though, because I raped her on Thursday.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Melissia wrote:

You, on the other hand, are now insulting people who have been raped because you don't think non-violent rape is actually rape.

No I'm not.

I'm saying that is why we have laws, but we have courts filled with humans who make decisions. If a man applies genuine and prolonged verbal pressure to a woman, he can indeed rape her and I sympathise with her.

But according to you and Tritium, literally every person on this board has been both a rapist and a rape victim. Simply applying a little bit of pressure after your girlfriend says "Not tonight, Ive got a headache" and nibbling on her ear until she changes her mind doesn't make you a rapist.

Similarly, changing your mind and shagging your partner when you really couldn't be bothered but she whined at you for ten minutes and then licked your neck for a bit doesn't make you a helpless victim of a traumatic rape.

Im stunned I have to type this out, clearly I am not the one with a fringe opinion here.

mattyrm wrote:

AustonT wrote:Does your wife know matty?

Of course she does, she raped me on Tuesday.

Its alright though, because I raped her on Thursday.

i lold

Rented Tritium wrote:Where's your "luxury of leaving" now. What if it's your boss? What if it's someone in a position of social power? What if you really don't want it, but your social circle will make fun of you for not doing it.

In an instance where the rapist possesses authority, then consent can be obtained via coercion where physical force is not used, and therefore can be considered rape; though there is still a much larger grey area regarding a woman raping a man via vaginal intercourse due to anatomical limitations.

Social power is fuzzier still, as there are necessary consequences to any action which might be aired in a social setting. Giving into a potential rapist due to a non-explicit threat of social ramifications is not necessarily rape, as the "rapist" has not actively engaged in coercion (in essence, the "rapist" would be held as criminally liable for a set of conditions outside of his explicit control). However, the deliberate use of social position in order to induce someone into engaging in sexual intercourse would be rape, though a very difficult form of rape to prove due to the relative fuzziness of social hierarchy and its impact on any potential victim.

mattyrm wrote: No I'm not.

Yes you are.

mattyrm wrote: And do you remember what I said about this debate cheapening rape for the victims of actual rape?

Claiming that someone who is coerced in to having sex is not a victim of "actual rape" is exactly what I said it was.

Melissia wrote:
You, on the other hand, are now insulting people who have been raped because you don't think non-violent rape is actually rape.

To be fair, the term "nonviolent rape" is rather clumsy due to the fact that nonconsensual intercourse implicitly involves a violent act. In essence, and kind of nonconsensual sexual contact could be construed as fitting the definition of violence, though we often distinguish between certain forms of contact (inappropriate physical contact) and others (nonconsensual intercourse) as a matter of convenience regarding differentiation according to the severity of the action.

I assumed that was the difference between rape and sexual assault-- that is to say, sexual assault is a kind of rape which is violent, with rape being a more general term for non-consenting sex.

edit: google's define function agrees with me.

Knowing what little I do about matty from Dakka I imagine both his and his wife's rapes were violent.

Albatross wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:Me too, Alby. When can I expect you to grace my local pub scene?

Not sure. Me and the missus are planning a 'big' holiday (as in, outside of Europe) for next year, but I have a funny feeling that going to California just so's I can meet up with Dakkanauts might be a hard sell! Still worth a shot, though.

When can I expect you to grace my local pub scene?

I'm not the only reason to come to California. Though I'm definitely in the top ten.

I'd love to make it over there one of these days, though.

Melissia wrote:

mattyrm wrote: No I'm not.

Yes you are.

mattyrm wrote: And do you remember what I said about this debate cheapening rape for the victims of actual rape?

Claiming that someone who is coerced in to having sex is not a victim of "actual rape" is exactly what I said it was.

Melissa, are you being deliberately obtuse? You must know exactly where I stand by now surely? I have written this as black and white as I possibly can, my last post said

mattyrm wrote:I'm saying that is why we have laws, but we have courts filled with humans who make decisions. If a man applies genuine and prolonged verbal pressure to a woman, he can indeed rape her and I sympathise with her.

As I said, I feel this conversation has ran its course. I didn't try to say a man can never ever be raped by a woman, I simply said that it is so much rarer it isn't worth concerning ourselves with, and the vast majority of straight men see things my way, and not yours or Tritiums. Very few straight men would classify not really wanting to have sex with a woman but being verbally harangued for ten minutes and then changing your mind and sleeping with her as "Oh my god, I have just been the victim of a terrible and traumatic rape"

I have no desire to try and change your mind, I'm just happy to know that the vast majority of straight men see things my way.

Melissia wrote:I assumed that was the difference between rape and sexual assault-- that is to say, sexual assault is a kind of rape which is violent, with rape being a more general term for non-consenting sex.

Well, it depends on the jurisdiction really, but every source I'm familiar with treats rape as a particular type of sexual assault involving intercourse, with secondary violence (ie. physical compulsion) being either an aggravating issue, or simply one possible means of determining whether coercion was utilized to create a situation in which the freedom to consent did not exist.

To simplify, rape is a type of sexual assault, but sexual assault does not necessarily entail rape.

dogma wrote:

Melissia wrote:I assumed that was the difference between rape and sexual assault-- that is to say, sexual assault is a kind of rape which is violent, with rape being a more general term for non-consenting sex.

Well, it depends on the jurisdiction really, but every source I'm familiar with treats rape as a particular type of sexual assault involving intercourse, with secondary violence (ie. physical compulsion) being either an aggravating issue, or simply one possible means of determining whether coercion was utilized to create a situation in which the freedom to consent did not exist.

To simplify, rape is a type of sexual assault, but sexual assault does not necessarily entail rape.

I hate legal debates...

This is a debate?

It looks like dogma taking someone to school from where I'm setting.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

mattyrm wrote: Melissa, are you being deliberately obtuse?

Welcome to dakka, mattyrm!