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Kaldor wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:Problem is, as I have shown, the Tactical Marine painted like an Ultramarines and the Tactical Marine painted like a Blood Angel have the exact same model kit, so pre-paint they look exactly the same.

So they are not a proxy or a counts-as, they are the real deal.

Ah, but you're demonstrably wrong.

Do Ultramarines have rules?

Yes.

Do Blood Angels have rules?

Yes.

Therfore, using an Ultramarine model with Blood Angels rules is either a proxy or a counts-as.

You can make up any backstory you want to justify your counts-as or proxying, but that doesn't change what it is.

What if it isn't painted as an Ultramarine? What if it mainly contains parts from the SM, DA and BT range (cos I simply like the look)?

Steelmage99 wrote:
What if it isn't painted as an Ultramarine? What if it mainly contains parts from the SM, DA and BT range (cos I simply like the look)?

Then you are breaking the rules and might as well use cardboard with words on them. Oh, and a special hit squad will come in during the night and excise vengeance upon you and waterboard you until you finally pick one codex and only codex and modify all your models to fit the designs. Least, that's what these modeling-nazis think.

xxBlazinGhostxx wrote:

Steelmage99 wrote:
What if it isn't painted as an Ultramarine? What if it mainly contains parts from the SM, DA and BT range (cos I simply like the look)?

Then you are breaking the rules and might as well use cardboard with words on them. Oh, and a special hit squad will come in during the night and excise vengeance upon you and waterboard you until you finally pick one codex and only codex and modify all your models to fit the designs. Least, that's what these modeling-nazis think.

Well, to be fair the No-Hopping side of the argument has a point (somewhere in there).

The main sin concerning codex-hopping seems to be painting an army in a colour-scheme (including markings and insignia) already associated with an established codex, and then using the same models to play using a different codex.
I agree with this. That can be somewhat annoying and confusing.

The problem is that that attitude is extended to include ALL codex-hopping whatever kind of models you use, the colours you paint them in and irrespective of how WYSIWYG those models are.

This is famously then extended even further into "using card-board chits", which is a logical fallacy of great magnitude.


Even worse is the misdirections employed by that side of the argument.
Once the "extensions" are shown to be absurd and petty, we are usually served a side-order of "counts-as" and "proxy" as an argument, as if it had any relevance to the original issue.


To me it seems to boil down to two main arguments;

1. "It isn't fair that marines (of all stripes) can so easily codex-hop while other cannot."

and

2. "You should put greater weight of this particular facet of the hobby".

Agree or disagree at your own peril.



...

Steelmage99 wrote: What if it isn't painted as an Ultramarine? What if it mainly contains parts from the SM, DA and BT range (cos I simply like the look)?

Knock yourself out.

Personally, I have no problems with what the OP is suggesting. He's not doing it to codex-hop to the flavour of the month or anything like that, it's just to try something new that's still related to his current army. I'm cool with this - like many have said, it's a bloody expensive hobby, both in money and time. Having to buy/paint an entirely new army that only has some minor cosmetic differences just to have some fun with a different codex is pretty damn impractical.

Here's a question for you all, related to a comment earlier about seeing a particular army and expecting a particular rule-set for it - if someone fields a pre-Heresy Thousand Sons army against you, and it is CLEARLY modelled and painted as pre-Heresy Thousand Sons... which codex would you expect them to be using? I'm honestly curious here.

Skits wrote:Personally, I have no problems with what the OP is suggesting. He's not doing it to codex-hop to the flavour of the month or anything like that, it's just to try something new that's still related to his current army. I'm cool with this - like many have said, it's a bloody expensive hobby, both in money and time. Having to buy/paint an entirely new army that only has some minor cosmetic differences just to have some fun with a different codex is pretty damn impractical.

Here's a question for you all, related to a comment earlier about seeing a particular army and expecting a particular rule-set for it - if someone fields a pre-Heresy Thousand Sons army against you, and it is CLEARLY modelled and painted as pre-Heresy Thousand Sons... which codex would you expect them to be using? I'm honestly curious here.

Thanks for the post, I was sifting through deviant art and had a question much like yours:
http://angrymarines.deviantart.com/#/d4tfs3r
So that being the Angry Marines chapter what codex would they expect that to be played from because honestly I find those miniatures far more off the reservation than anything else suggested in this thread. (Not sure how one gets away with F-Bombs painted on their models at tournaments).

Kaldor wrote:

Abyssel wrote: Once again, paint is paint

Paint is not just paint. At what point do we stop playing a miniatures wargame and start playing with cardboard chits with 'plasma gunner' and 'landraider' written on it? Where exactly is the line?
For me, as soon as we decide we don't care what rules should be associated with our models, and we use whatever rules we want, we have crossed that line and we may as well be playing with bits of cardboard.

I totally agree in what you are saying.
A ultramarine painted army shall be played as a ultramarine army(space marine rules). Other rules for that army is, according to me, wrong and goes against everything that has to do with this game. Background, paintingscheme and its rules to it.
Be proud of your army, not just use the best rules to make for your army to win. Its more then that.

In my gaming club for example, one player used to play Iron Hands(just as me), but then he feelt the space wolves rules where much better and goes with those instead. Still using his iron hands miniatures with iron hands icons.
We even ended up meeting each other in a tournament a while back, where he got my but handed to me(when i used my iron hands with space marine rules), well because his rules where much better then mine.
But that isnt the point, he didnt have any pride in his army, he just wanted to win. I gladly take a loss with my army, as long as I stay true.

Im really annoyed when people do this, just leaves their army in favor of better rules. Its a real shame that it has come to this.
Thats my way of seeing this and I stand by that.

Relativity wrote:

Kaldor wrote:

Abyssel wrote: Once again, paint is paint

Paint is not just paint. At what point do we stop playing a miniatures wargame and start playing with cardboard chits with 'plasma gunner' and 'landraider' written on it? Where exactly is the line?
For me, as soon as we decide we don't care what rules should be associated with our models, and we use whatever rules we want, we have crossed that line and we may as well be playing with bits of cardboard.

I totally agree in what you are saying.
A ultramarine painted army shall be played as a ultramarine army(space marine rules). Other rules for that army is, according to me, wrong and goes against everything that has to do with this game. Background, paintingscheme and its rules to it.
Be proud of your army, not just use the best rules to make for your army to win. Its more then that.

In my gaming club for example, one player used to play Iron Hands(just as me), but then he feelt the space wolves rules where much better and goes with those instead. Still using his iron hands miniatures with iron hands icons.
We even ended up meeting each other in a tournament a while back, where he got my but handed to me(when i used my iron hands with space marine rules), well because his rules where much better then mine.
But that isnt the point, he didnt have any pride in his army, he just wanted to win. I gladly take a loss with my army, as long as I stay true.

Im really annoyed when people do this, just leaves their army in favor of better rules. Its a real shame that it has come to this.
Thats my way of seeing this and I stand by that.

That is of course assuming someone is doing this simply for the 'better rules.' Some of us attempt to modify our models and convert them to something more our own, not just the standard scheme of things. I explained early on in this thread that my Ultramarines army is a successor chapter that I came up with, Alpha Company. The back story for them, in short, is that they are a company of marines outside of the normal parameters set forth in the codex because they are sent on suicide type missions. I take great pride in what my army looks like and the fact that my models are considerably adapted to the visual that I prefer. Simply because I want to run 'my' marines out of another codex does not mean I have any less pride with them, same amount of time was spent on them whether they are sitting on the shelf or sitting on the battlefield.

Swapping armies for better rules, that bugs me, swapping armies because you want to enjoy the game, that does not. There is a big difference between flavor of the month swappers and people who play the same codex every weekend and want to try something new without breaking the bank.

Skits wrote:pre-Heresy Thousand Sons... which codex would you expect them to be using? I'm honestly curious here.

Either Grey Knights or codex Marines, I reckon. The extra rules of Blood and Dark Angels don't seem to fit what I know of the Thousand Sons, and neither does the SW. Grey Knights kinda does with all the psychic powers, but gets wierd with the anti-daemon stuff. It'd be up to player discretion to avoid the GK choices that would be anti-thematic.

Jstncloud wrote:By the logic that a couple of posters keep bringing up, your force is not painted to match any codex, so they would 'be confused as to what you are indeed using.'

Um, you're really misunderstanding our point here.

His force is not painted or modelled like any specific codex, so there's no danger of his opponent confusing it for any specific codex. He can use it as anything.

If you play with a force painted and modelled like Ultramarines, but using Space Wolf rules, there's a danger of the opponent confusing it for Ultramarines mid-game. Even if it's a really simple slip ('oh, I forgot they had counter-attack, I was thinking 'Ultramarines') it's enough to make a difference.

Kaldor wrote:

Skits wrote:pre-Heresy Thousand Sons... which codex would you expect them to be using? I'm honestly curious here.

Either Grey Knights or codex Marines, I reckon. The extra rules of Blood and Dark Angels don't seem to fit what I know of the Thousand Sons, and neither does the SW. Grey Knights kinda does with all the psychic powers, but gets wierd with the anti-daemon stuff. It'd be up to player discretion to avoid the GK choices that would be anti-thematic.

Thanks for the reply! I never even considered Blood/Dark Angels, and my Sons characters are screaming bloody murder at the mere thought of using Space Wolves rules.

What about the Chaos Marine codex though? Again, like the GK one, avoiding choices that'd be anti-thematic. Granted, that limits the choices a fair bit, but I'm used to that since I have a pure post-heresy Thousand Sons army already, and at least it's got Ahriman, an actual Thousand Sons character (albeit, these days an overpriced and understrength choice ).

Anyway, to the point of the question - since the pre-Heresy Sons don't have their own codex, and instead have at least two, maybe three codices they could be at least somewhat accurately represented by - would you have a problem with switching between codices here? Not for WAAC or FotM reasons, but purely for what best suited the story of the fight at hand/my mood at the time? (If I were the sort of player worried about nothing but winning, I wouldn't be playing pure, fluff-based Thousand Sons armies in the first place. )

AegisGrimm wrote:

Ravenwing Attack Bikes list "teleport homers" among their wargear. Do your models have visibly represented teleport homers? If they do, then they're invalid as Ultramarine bikers, as Ultramarine bikes don't have teleport homers.

If the basis of your argument is that models with the same wargear should be interchangable between codexes, you should probably do a better job of picking examples that actually have the same wargear.

Do any actual Ravenwing models have that wargear modeled on the figure? Because if not, than even a Ravenwing force cannot use the Ravenwing rules by that logic.

Sure, what do you think those antennas on the back are.

Jstncloud wrote:

Redbeard wrote:... My concern is that when you field an army with an established appearance, which includes the paintjob, the iconography, the chapter markings, and so on, it is as confusing for an opponent to try and keep track of this as it is when you take a model with a defined weapon (say, a lascannon), and tell them before the game that it's going to count as a plasma cannon for this game....

There is no real arguing with you, the points cannot be made. What if my codex marines were red and you thought they were Blood Angels anyways? What if my Blood Angels were blue and you thought they were Ultramarines. I am not starting the match with "Here is the back history of the army I am playing" I would stay by telling you what it is. Your argument is weak at best, in my opinion, and call my position what you want it is spot on for the thread.

If I had a set of marines who were green, because I wanted them to be and you made a play error thinking they were Dark Angels, not my fault so long as I told you prior to starting the game. There is no difference in me playing Ultramarines as Blood Angels or me playing BLUE Blood Angels, only that because I connect the lore of one to the use of another irritates you, which is your opinion.

So you're putting words in my mouth, again, that are clearly in opposition to what I actually wrote. If you want to have a discussion with your own multiple personalities, why not do that instead? But if you want to actually discuss this issue with other people, how about you read what they write, not what you think they're writing.

Lobukia wrote:Only wargear that is special or different from the norm is needed... that's why no Ravenwing models even come with a teleport homer

Do you have a page reference for this claim? And they do, that's what those antenna looking things are.

cgmckenzie wrote:Who is so thick they cannot remember what army they are playing against? It is a 2-3 hour game; if you cannot remember what book I am running my models as in that time frame after I have told you at the beginning and let you look at my list, and you don't ask when you can't remember, you deserve to screw that up. Don't make the rest of the world dumb down so you don't have to think.

Now we're using the 'you're stupid, so I should be allowed to disrespect you' argument? That's a mature one. It has nothing to do with dumbing down the game, it has to do with showing your opponent respect. It has to do with not seeking an advantage you didn't pay for, even if you think that your opponent should be able to negate that advantage. You may think it's easy to keep all the various rules for different marine armies separate and never get confused about them. A lot of people don't. There's no need to insult them just because you want to proxy one army as another.

Skits wrote:Personally, I have no problems with what the OP is suggesting. He's not doing it to codex-hop to the flavour of the month or anything like that, it's just to try something new that's still related to his current army. I'm cool with this - like many have said, it's a bloody expensive hobby, both in money and time. Having to buy/paint an entirely new army that only has some minor cosmetic differences just to have some fun with a different codex is pretty damn impractical.

Here's a question for you all, related to a comment earlier about seeing a particular army and expecting a particular rule-set for it - if someone fields a pre-Heresy Thousand Sons army against you, and it is CLEARLY modelled and painted as pre-Heresy Thousand Sons... which codex would you expect them to be using? I'm honestly curious here.

Grey Knights would be the best I suppose. Though the anti daemon stuff shouldn't be there. And familiars were used by the TS, weren't they? And the psychic powers should be different... maybe a custom dex based on the GKs.

Another question: will there ever be a codex that can adequately represent the Alpha Legion?

Anyway, as regards OP, I wouldn't really have a problem with it. I'd point out that the Ultramarines have 90% of a codex to themselves, but that's it. If someone's using a codex and has told you, there's not really any reason to object IMO unless the game is in a competition or something.

xxBlazinGhostxx wrote:
I personally want to use the SW models for C:SM and BA. Why? CAUSE THEY LOOK AWESOME!

My group will play you! You just have to tell us what's unit is in each rhino!


Joke from another thread...

If you can remember all the rules to this game, the special rules for each unit, the stat line for your units and the units across the board, you should be able to remember what army you are playing against. To claim you can't and to then not ask when you forget is stupid.

-cgmckenzie

SImply put take your BA codex photo copy the entry for storm raven put it in you book in the fast attack section.

it should be okay i don't like that the BA and GK are the only ones who are supposed to have this model.

its cool and my terminators want 1

cgmckenzie wrote:If you can remember all the rules to this game, the special rules for each unit, the stat line for your units and the units across the board, you should be able to remember what army you are playing against. To claim you can't and to then not ask when you forget is stupid.

So you have never made a mistake based on how something looks?

You've never played an opponent who needed to proxy a model, and then forgotten that the flamer in that guys hand was actually a meltagun? But, he told you, forgetting would be "stupid".

And, it's not about forgetting what army you're playing against, it's about that subconscious association that lets you know what something can do. I'm sorry we can't all be perfect like you.

Redbeard wrote:

cgmckenzie wrote:If you can remember all the rules to this game, the special rules for each unit, the stat line for your units and the units across the board, you should be able to remember what army you are playing against. To claim you can't and to then not ask when you forget is stupid.

So you have never made a mistake based on how something looks?

You've never played an opponent who needed to proxy a model, and then forgotten that the flamer in that guys hand was actually a meltagun? But, he told you, forgetting would be "stupid".

And, it's not about forgetting what army you're playing against, it's about that subconscious association that lets you know what something can do. I'm sorry we can't all be perfect like you.

Ladies and gentlemen!

I give you....


*Drum-roll*

The Proxy Argument!

Cyclical argument is cyclical.

On the argument about the colour of marines,the anti-camp seem to forget the social aspect of the game.

They say itmakes it harder for them to play because it makes them think its a different codex (an arguement that is a little pointless as the vast majority of players do not have every codex and only know the general rules of an enemy codex), but they forget a very simple way to resolve this, by talking to your opponent and interacting with them.

If my opponents are proxying something(flamers are meltaguns for example) and I can't remember what it is or I am not 100% sure, I ask. Forgetting isn't stupid, not asking when you don't know is.

If I am playing against a codex I don't personally play, and sometimes ones I do play, I will talk to my opponent and make sure that what I think they are doing, what they think they are doing, and what they are actually doing all match up.

-cgmckenzie

ArbitorIan wrote:

Jstncloud wrote:By the logic that a couple of posters keep bringing up, your force is not painted to match any codex, so they would 'be confused as to what you are indeed using.'

Um, you're really misunderstanding out point here.

His force is not painted or modelled like any specific codex, so there's no danger of his opponent confusing it for any specific codex. He can use it as anything.

If you play with a force painted and modelled like Ultramarines, but using Space Wolf rules, there's a danger of the opponent confusing it for Ultramarines mid-game. Even if it's a really simple slip ('oh, I forgot they had counter-attack, I was thinking 'Ultramarines') it's enough to make a difference.

Sicarius can give a tactical squad counter-attack, what then? Same example. If you are a Warhammer 40k player of any length you've dealt with proxies and made mistakes for whatever reason, to blame it on coloration is ridiculous. I can see the point, but I'd rather deal with having to remember a color scheme difference than to look at an Angry Marine model that says "F***" all over it.

cgmckenzie wrote:If you can remember all the rules to this game, the special rules for each unit, the stat line for your units and the units across the board, you should be able to remember what army you are playing against. To claim you can't and to then not ask when you forget is stupid.

-cgmckenzie

Agreed.

captain collius wrote:SImply put take your BA codex photo copy the entry for storm raven put it in you book in the fast attack section.

it should be okay i don't like that the BA and GK are the only ones who are supposed to have this model.

its cool and my terminators want 1

My group was not cool with that, so I bought the codex that would allow me to use the model I wanted.

cgmckenzie wrote:If my opponents are proxying something(flamers are meltaguns for example) and I can't remember what it is or I am not 100% sure, I ask. Forgetting isn't stupid, not asking when you don't know is.

If I am playing against a codex I don't personally play, and sometimes ones I do play, I will talk to my opponent and make sure that what I think they are doing, what they think they are doing, and what they are actually doing all match up.

-cgmckenzie

I do the same thing, it is not practical for me to know EVERYTHING about EVERY codex. I could be playing against BA and overlook something or even C:SM, so like you said, I ask. "Hey does this squad have a flamer? This one has a metla? Ok thanks." because as you pointed out if you don't know, ask, and they should inform you of what you do not know. Though admittedly it is nice to not HAVE to ask but it does not change the fact that sometimes you do, for example, one of our players plays the new SoB book. I am not familiar with it so I ask a load of questions, I could complain and 'forget' stuff or I could just ask. Seeing as I don't like to lose, I ask, thus allowing for better tactical gameplay.

BluntmanDC wrote:On the argument about the colour of marines,the anti-camp seem to forget the social aspect of the game.

They say itmakes it harder for them to play because it makes them think its a different codex (an arguement that is a little pointless as the vast majority of players do not have every codex and only know the general rules of an enemy codex), but they forget a very simple way to resolve this, by talking to your opponent and interacting with them.

Have you conveniently skipped the parts of the thread where we say we will actually play with people who are doing these things, yet prefer not to. We're not anti-social you know.

cgmckenzie wrote:
If I am playing against a codex I don't personally play, and sometimes ones I do play, I will talk to my opponent and make sure that what I think they are doing, what they think they are doing, and what they are actually doing all match up.

Right, we've already established that you're perfect and don't make mistakes, you don't need to keep rubbing it in. I'm (probably) older and am likely to have a few beers in me while playing, so sometimes I'll forget to ask, precisely because I forgot that my opponent was proxying something. See how that works. If I remembered that he was proxying, I wouldn't need to ask, but because I forgot, I also forgot that I needed to ask.

Besides, it's also harder for those of us who do know all the rules. I know that Ultramarine rhinos, for example, are not fast. So when I see them, I know what their threat radius is. When they turn out to actually be Blood Angel rhinos with an extra 6" move, that throws that off. Is it really so much to ask that people who want to play Blood Angels not paint their rhinos blue with upside-down Omegas all over them?

Skits wrote:

Kaldor wrote:

Skits wrote:pre-Heresy Thousand Sons... which codex would you expect them to be using? I'm honestly curious here.

Either Grey Knights or codex Marines, I reckon. The extra rules of Blood and Dark Angels don't seem to fit what I know of the Thousand Sons, and neither does the SW. Grey Knights kinda does with all the psychic powers, but gets wierd with the anti-daemon stuff. It'd be up to player discretion to avoid the GK choices that would be anti-thematic.

Thanks for the reply! I never even considered Blood/Dark Angels, and my Sons characters are screaming bloody murder at the mere thought of using Space Wolves rules.

What about the Chaos Marine codex though? Again, like the GK one, avoiding choices that'd be anti-thematic. Granted, that limits the choices a fair bit, but I'm used to that since I have a pure post-heresy Thousand Sons army already, and at least it's got Ahriman, an actual Thousand Sons character (albeit, these days an overpriced and understrength choice ).

Anyway, to the point of the question - since the pre-Heresy Sons don't have their own codex, and instead have at least two, maybe three codices they could be at least somewhat accurately represented by - would you have a problem with switching between codices here? Not for WAAC or FotM reasons, but purely for what best suited the story of the fight at hand/my mood at the time? (If I were the sort of player worried about nothing but winning, I wouldn't be playing pure, fluff-based Thousand Sons armies in the first place. )

I'd have no problem with you swapping books at your discretion, so long as I know before the match starts what is what and what codex is being used. However that is basically the same things as running one army as another paint scheme wise. Thousands suns out of Chaos "Ok now I am used to you running chaos" Thousands suns as GK "Ok now I am use to you running GK" Thousand suns as..."Oh wait I am confused or made a play error."

That seems to be the position they are taking, as soon as you say Thousands Suns in my presence I immediately think "Chaos" whether is it post or pre heresy, just the facts, but that does not mean I am going to cry if you use the book you want because it fits what you want to do, knock yourself out and lets have a blast.

I never said I was perfect, that was you. I simply understand basic problem solving; when in doubt, ask.

And I do enjoy a beer while playing. If you drink to the point of not being able to remember my army, that is your own fault, and not my problem to solve.

-cgmckenzie

cgmckenzie wrote:I never said I was perfect, that was you. I simply understand basic problem solving; when in doubt, ask.

And I do enjoy a beer while playing. If you drink to the point of not being able to remember my army, that is your own fault, and not my problem to solve.

-cgmckenzie

He did state that he was of an older persuasion, and more naturally prone to forgetting things

And drinking to the point of not being able to remember things could quite easily happen, especially if you are playing an apocalypse game

Well, I don't think I could remember everything in an apocalypse game while sober Apocalypse games are only worth playing if done as 'floorhammer'!

-cgmckenzie

Redbeard wrote:

BluntmanDC wrote:On the argument about the colour of marines,the anti-camp seem to forget the social aspect of the game.

They say itmakes it harder for them to play because it makes them think its a different codex (an arguement that is a little pointless as the vast majority of players do not have every codex and only know the general rules of an enemy codex), but they forget a very simple way to resolve this, by talking to your opponent and interacting with them.

Have you conveniently skipped the parts of the thread where we say we will actually play with people who are doing these things, yet prefer not to. We're not anti-social you know.

cgmckenzie wrote:
If I am playing against a codex I don't personally play, and sometimes ones I do play, I will talk to my opponent and make sure that what I think they are doing, what they think they are doing, and what they are actually doing all match up.

Right, we've already established that you're perfect and don't make mistakes, you don't need to keep rubbing it in. I'm (probably) older and am likely to have a few beers in me while playing, so sometimes I'll forget to ask, precisely because I forgot that my opponent was proxying something. See how that works. If I remembered that he was proxying, I wouldn't need to ask, but because I forgot, I also forgot that I needed to ask.

Besides, it's also harder for those of us who do know all the rules. I know that Ultramarine rhinos, for example, are not fast. So when I see them, I know what their threat radius is. When they turn out to actually be Blood Angel rhinos with an extra 6" move, that throws that off. Is it really so much to ask that people who want to play Blood Angels not paint their rhinos blue with upside-down Omegas all over them?

The fact that my reply included a solution that requires you to be playing them shows that i have not skipped anything. You should also know that there is a difference between being willing to play someone and being social, if you talked with your oppenent for a while before and during the game you could remember. Also if you are so worried about making tactical errors during a game, drinking alcohol would probably be the first thing to put down.

Here's the deal where it breaks down for me. Let's say I have a 10-man squad of Space Marine figures holding boltguns, with one of them holding a flamer instead of a boltgun.

I should be able to use them in any one-codex Space Marine-based list where a squad equipped like that is legal on the table, regardless of the color they are, as long as i am perfectly clear with my opponent before-hand how that it's what I am doing.

Nowhere does GW have any rules about models and how their paint jobs or affixed decals must fit within the conventions of the fluff, or with games-Workshop published photos/artwork.

Saying I can't use the Ultramarines blue coloration and upside-down Omega on my Blood Angels is like saying I can't use any decals that are traditionally Saim-Hann specific on my Dark Eldar, even if I like them, because those decals "aren't meant for those models and so useing them that way isn't legal".

If that sole convention 'wrecks the feel of the game' for any gamer out there, and is enough to keep them from playing against another player, I would count myself as being in luck, as they are way too flaky to be the type of gamer I would want to play anyway.

AegisGrimm wrote:Here's the deal where it breaks down for me. Let's say I have a 10-man squad of Space Marine figures holding boltguns, with one of them holding a flamer instead of a boltgun.

I should be able to use them in any one-codex Space Marine-based list where a squad equipped like that is legal on the table, regardless of the color they are, as long as i am perfectly clear with my opponent before-hand how that it's what I am doing.

Nowhere does GW have any rules about models and how their paint jobs or affixed decals must fit within the conventions of the fluff, or with games-Workshop published photos/artwork.

Saying I can't use the Ultramarines blue coloration and upside-down Omega on my Blood Angels is like saying I can't use any decals that are traditionally Saim-Hann specific on my Dark Eldar, even if I like them, because those decals "aren't meant for those models and so useing them that way isn't legal".

If that sole convention 'wrecks the feel of the game' for any gamer out there, and is enough to keep them from playing against another player, I would count myself as being in luck, as they are way too flaky to be the type of gamer I would want to play anyway.

Agreed.