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In my experience, the event was a great success if the specific venue was "on the ball" and competent. They made the event, despite its flawed rules, fun and good.

For example, three stores that come to mind are The Realm in Brea, GMI games in Riverside and Game Empire games in Pasadena. All of these stores that I played in (in both prelim-semi finals) had top notch, competent organizers and judges.

There was one other store I went to that was in Sacramento area for the finals and sadly, the judges there allowed at least one player to play with a proxie and no printed army list and failed to ensure players completed games/turns in a reasonable manner.

overall, there has been a large scale of quality of games and opponents from clubbing seals to tough games with great opponents.

Given the above, I can see why some people had bad experiences and why some people had good experiences, it came down to your specific combination of opponents and venue and a lack of standardization is perhaps the biggest culprit.

It is one thing to have rules in a rules packet and another to have a store 2k miles from your company's HQ following the rules faithfully and competently.

If GW is to make a good tournament, they will need to have competent trained staff running events and have a solid rules packet (which is a logistical nightmare on a tournament of the 'Ard Boyz scale). Both were lacking in 'Ard Boyz in different ways and I can see why the event got canned but I will miss the prize support!

Target wrote:
He criticized/etc. the event and the player base he felt it attracted,

That's right he went after me. So fight fire with fire. Thanks for pointing that out.

Btw, does calling someone a cheater and degrading their quality count as criticizing? I may need to go look that word up again. I think insult is a better word.

You subjected yourself

How by posting in an "Ard Boyz is Cancelled" thread? That's all it takes around here start hurling insults? How sad. Bye dakka.

I believe nkelsch expressed his views in a correct manner about the Hard Boyz tournament. Myself, I would be swearing (not in this site of course) about all of the ramped cheating and disorganization that I have seen in my region of play where I live. Hard boyz was a good idea but a lack of organization is what hurt it.

I am more curious about the why's of the resignation, since I have seen the ever shrinking GW sales staff from 2010 to 2011 here in the US.

Did they resign or where they laid off?

Odominus wrote:

Target wrote:
He criticized/etc. the event and the player base he felt it attracted,

That's right he went after me. So fight fire with fire. Thanks for pointing that out.

Btw, does calling someone a cheater and degrading their quality count as criticizing? I may need to go look that word up again. I think insult is a better word.

You subjected yourself

How by posting in an "Ard Boyz is Cancelled" thread? That's all it takes around here start hurling insults? How sad. Bye dakka.

He went after the player base which is a general entity. He did not say "ODOMINUS IS X Y Z", however, you did say "nkelsch is x y z!". You chose to take what he said personally, and responded as if it was a personal attack (ie, directed at one person). And yes, you subjected yourself, it takes two people to argue, you chose to enter the thread, take a general viewpoint as directed at you personally, and then you chose to respond to it by hurling an insult. You could have ignored nkelschs viewpoint or responded to his content, rather than to him as a poster.

I think the best thing to get from Ard Boyz ending is that there were positive experiences and negatives ones, just as there will always be, because some people did in fact enjoy it, and some people had bad experiences (depending on the person, the venue, etc.). However, there are many many more events out there nowadays, why not check one of them out rather than lamenting ard boyz too heavily? Even the people who defend Ard Boyz typically agree that the missions were wonky.

I don't consider pointing out a FREE, LOCAL tourney attracts more players who are inexperienced at playing under the constraints of a tourney or lack a full grasp of the rules, and that people who are not familiar with the rules or how to play within a timed event like a tourney are considered a poorer quality of opponent.

And the Cash grab prizes brings out cheaters, and cheaters are a poorer quality of opponent.

Combine those 3 types of people with the general wargaming community and you have a degraded pool of opponents to play against compared to what yous ee at larger INDY events or even well organized local communities. I feel like most indy events have an overall better pool of opponents because most attendees had to make an effort and are more prepared for the event (have army lists, can play quickly, understand their rules, experienced at the game) and cheating is more exposed and cracked down upon which often deters people from attempting.

Yes, 'ard boyz has a poorer quality of opponents than what you find at other events. Even as a generalization, my personal experiences and many other people's experiences on Dakka show it to be very true of many areas which shows the inequality of 'ard boyz across the nation. If it was designed to be a 'training' tourney for people to cut their teeth, then that is cool! But that is not what it is marketed as. The problem is 'ard boyz is many peoples first and only exposure to tourney play and they get a horribly sour taste in their mouth to it and they don't know why it is bad but they are turned off and think all tourneys are like this.

They are missing out if they think all tourneys are as bad as 'ard boyz is in many areas. I am glad HB is dead if only to prevent it from being most new players first exposure to supposed, 'competitive play'. (which 'ard boyz can hardly be considered competitive)

"I did. Gaming the system to get more people than deserve it to the later rounds is one of the problems of 'ard boyz. People purposefully look for poorly run 'ard boyz with low attendance to increase their chances of winning and due to the totally inconsistent nature and organization of 'ardboyz, it works. It is dubious to operate in that fashion to try to 'win' by selecting areas with easier opponents or poor organization or bad organizers to increase your chance of reaching the finals, almost as if the first round doesn't matter and is a formality. It doesn't speak to the quality fo the event or the true competitive nature if people are able to do this. Even if they are not purposely cheating like many of the other people who do quit on Saturday and then play at a location which had their 'ard boyz on sunday, it is all around bad.

Why not get your 10 buddies and go to adpeticon or something and play some of the best people in the nation in a well-run event with real missions and a actually fair point value and have fun with your buddies all meeting up at the top tables with all your skill? Or do you need to find a 'ard boyz with 9 participants run by a dude at a model train store who knows nothing about GW games and has no judges enforcing rules to 'win' your way skillfully into the finals?

'Ardboyz was a total trainwreck mess and represented no skill. Anyone who was driving out of area to find easier opponents is what is wrong with tourneys in my opinion. Grow a sack and go to a national or regional indy event and get your skull caved in as there are some amazing players out there at these events that make 'ard boyz look like a joke. "

Nkelsch,

Stop using absolutes. You've been doing your best to offend anyone who is sad to see the format go since the moment this thread started. I don't care which mods are holding your hand, you've been outright offensive while being slippery enough to avoid using names in particular. You've gone from calling friends who don't want to play each other in the first couple rounds cheaters to accusing fans of the format to not having nutsacks? You've sanctimoniously suggested that Ard' Boyz goers should focus on what really matters ( to you ) .. things like improving painting and modeling so that they have prettier armies? Here's a question..what if they just want to play? Even though we share the same hobby, we don't enjoy it the same way and you seem incapable of recognizing that.

Throwing out blanket statements like "This is better for everyone." will do nothing other than rile up readers. Some people cant afford the trip to a large event, and their local ard' boyz was the most premier event they could attend even if it isn't considered the premier event in Warhammer or 40k.

My last bit of beef is your accusation of cheating by fanning out to other areas. Our store in Oklahoma is extremely proud of our competitive nature. A lot of our lists are mean, trimmed, and meant solely for winning. That's okay, because it's what we like. We often travel in groups of 3 or 4 to other stores to compete with their best players.. it's a bit of braggin rights for the boys in each store. So when Ard' Boyz rolls around, we travel up to 5 or 6 hours away in two or three man groups to compete with the other stores in Oklahoma, Texas, and Kansas. This isn't some weird consipracy to undermine the circuit, but for us to expand and compete outside of our safety blanket of friends and relatives.

TL;DR

Nkelsch, it seems like your trying to provoke people on purpose. Cut it out and calm down. You can state your opinion without calling Ard Boyz fans untalented hacks who cant cut it with the old guys who drive to the expensive gt's because we cheat and dont have testicles and were part of some secret society of tournament despoilers who want to completely destroy the hobby and drown the warhammer world in unsanded waves of evil grey plastic. ( Can't remember if this includes every one of your offensive generalisations or not? Did I miss any?)

I am glad HB is dead if only to prevent it from being most new players first exposure to supposed, 'competitive play'. (which 'ard boyz can hardly be considered competitive)

This is definitely a good point. QFT.

Odominus wrote: How sad. Bye dakka.

We'll hold you to that. Thanks!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Thunderfrog, I think you're taking this the wrong way.

I can understand that you (and other posters) are largely in favor of 'Ard Boyz, and I respect that. I have also heard many stories about what nkelsch mentions about 'Ard Boyz, and from those stories, I agree with his sentiment.

This does NOT mean that I think you're wrong for liking 'Ard Boyz; the two messages are not mutually exclusive. You and nkelsch get different things out of 'Ard Boyz, some positive and some negative. There are definitely some good points to the 'Ard Boyz, but I feel that, due to a large prize and minimal oversight, there was a lot of abuse of the system.

I ran two 'Ard Boyz prelims, and everyone involved seemed to enjoy them. That's a big plus for 'Ard Boyz players, enjoying the tournament. But just because it was good in my area doesn't mean that it was good overall.

So please, don't think that nkelsch (or me, or anyone else who doesn't like 'Ard Boyz) is disparaging you. We're talking about the system in general, and the bad apples it seems to bring out of the woodwork.

Lorek wrote:

Odominus wrote: How sad. Bye dakka.

We'll hold you to that. Thanks!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Thunderfrog, I think you're taking this the wrong way.

I can understand that you (and other posters) are largely in favor of 'Ard Boyz, and I respect that. I have also heard many stories about what nkelsch mentions about 'Ard Boyz, and from those stories, I agree with his sentiment.

This does NOT mean that I think you're wrong for liking 'Ard Boyz; the two messages are not mutually exclusive. You and nkelsch get different things out of 'Ard Boyz, some positive and some negative. There are definitely some good points to the 'Ard Boyz, but I feel that, due to a large prize and minimal oversight, there was a lot of abuse of the system.

I ran two 'Ard Boyz prelims, and everyone involved seemed to enjoy them. That's a big plus for 'Ard Boyz players, enjoying the tournament. But just because it was good in my area doesn't mean that it was good overall.

So please, don't think that nkelsch (or me, or anyone else who doesn't like 'Ard Boyz) is disparaging you. We're talking about the system in general, and the bad apples it seems to bring out of the woodwork.

My issue isn't his disagreeance with the format. It's how he's taking a holier than thou approach while trying to lump the players, not the system, into a terrible stereotype consisting of all the insulting facets I mentioned above. Obviously I'm not the only one who sees it this way because some other guy just (in rather dramatic fashion) exclaimed to all he was leaving the site . (Which is something akin to publicly quitting facebook via a facebook post I reckon.)

I don't mind someone saying things the way you put them. Notice you didn't reference the absence of a scrotum, lack of moral character, or general incompetency of those who enjoyed the event. Nor did you tell us what we should be doing instead of playing Ard Boyz style tournaments.

kronk wrote:

Polonius wrote:
If you believe that a person that doesnt' cheat or act rudely deserves a 10, than abusing Warp Quake is neither.

If you believe that sportsmanship should involve an active attempt to further the fun of both players... I doubt either player really enjoyed the game.

I believe the one I underlined. Be nice, don't cheat, explain what you're doing: Score a 10.

To hinder your chances at winning so the other player has a good time is commendable, but not neccessary at a tournament, IMHO.

I personally would prefer that they keep Best Sportsman, Best General, and Best Painted separated, with neither having an effect on the over-all winner.

I consider using gimmiky turn 1 win-buttons to be cheating in it's own special way. Sure it can backfire because you might not get the first turn, but the point is, you're aiming to prevent your opponent from even having the ability to pick-up a dice and fight back in any way. That's basically about as sporting as a UFC fighter taking on a blind 10 year old! Why should I bother wasting my time when you don't even have the decency to play a proper game?

Turn 1 abuses like this simply smack to me of a player being afraid to play an actual game because they might lose! Just because you can abuse a rule/ability, doesn't mean you should.
Abusing warp quake to pretty much auto-win vs any deep striking army is no different than throwing 6 dice at Purple Sun and IF'ing it across an ogre/lizzard men/undead/dwarf army's flank. (and that's still considered very bad form even after the power stone nerf!)

Imho, sportsmanship represents showing respect to your opponent. That includes not being a d-bag, AND doing your best to ensure both players have an enjoyable experience!

Hell, my dice suck way too much for me to ever win much. More often than not I get tabled due to my inability to roll above a 2, but I'd still like to you know, put my models on the board and have an outside chance of killing maybe two of your models.

Confirmed on GW North America Facebook:

’Ard Boyz Announcement:

At Games Workshop, the North American Trade Sales Team has spent a lot of time reviewing our organized events and the kind of tournaments and activities we’d like to support on a national level going forward. We decided that the events we want to support in the future need to be inclusive for both new and existing hobbyists while supporting the complete Games Workshop Hobby: Collecting, Building, Painting and Playing.

As a result we’ve decided to stop running ’Ard Boyz.

We’d like to say thank you to everyone who participated in ’Ard Boyz from playing, judging, writing scenarios and running these events in their local communities, and invite you to join us in the future as we introduce new events to enjoy later this year.

Lorizael wrote:Confirmed on GW North America Facebook:

’Ard Boyz Announcement:

At Games Workshop, the North American Trade Sales Team has spent a lot of time reviewing our organized events and the kind of tournaments and activities we’d like to support on a national level going forward. We decided that the events we want to support in the future need to be inclusive for both new and existing hobbyists while supporting the complete Games Workshop Hobby: Collecting, Building, Painting and Playing.

As a result we’ve decided to stop running ’Ard Boyz.

We’d like to say thank you to everyone who participated in ’Ard Boyz from playing, judging, writing scenarios and running these events in their local communities, and invite you to join us in the future as we introduce new events to enjoy later this year.

Thats a wrap!

Ard Boyz clearly was an event which a lot of people enjoyed. It was definitely embraced by a number of groups:

People who don’t paint/don’t like to paint

People who enjoy bigger point size games

People who don’t attend normal tournaments but were tempted out to play with strangers by the prospect of a free tournament with big prizes.

These folks clearly felt that this event had a unique appeal and filled a gap that regular tournaments don’t. They may have experienced some of Ardboys’ downsides, but they still found the event enjoyable. In part no doubt because a day out playing toy soldiers is generally a fun time even if the event is flawed, and in part because some (many?) of these folks don’t attend other events and so don’t have a lot of basis for comparison.

You can see a lack of comparative experience in some of the comments here. Folks who think that Ardboys’ making winning games the primary or only consideration is unique or rare. Folks who think that Sportsmanship, Composition, or other Soft Scores are still a major element in tournaments, when they’ve been increasingly eliminated or sidelined in most events over the past ten years. Folks who tell stories about being victimized by old Sports systems which have for the most part been phased out over the last five+ years, and aren’t used in modern competitive events, largely because of complaints like theirs. Some of these folks don’t realize that events which meet those needs/desires are much more commonplace now.

For the folks who do play other events, Ardboys’ flaws probably stood out more, because we had a lot of good events to compare it to. The often-poor scenarios frequently resulted in less enjoyable games and somewhat random outcomes. The times allowed were really too short (Mikhaila having three hours rounds at his Finals was awesome), resulted in a lot of truncated games and/or players not even bothering to bring horde armies. The fact that it was a free event DID result in some local stores running preliminaries without a good familiarity with the 40k rules and how to run a tournament; certainly a lot of Prelim events out there wound up being pretty meaningless because of low attendance and poor organization. I ran into guys who showed up to Regionals with their armies not WYSIWYG, for example, because it hadn’t been enforced at their local prelim events. And you did run into more genuine cheaters and bad sports at AB, no doubt in part due to the large prizes on the line, and in part due to some of these players not normally attending tournaments and not normally having to rein in unacceptable behavior. While most of my games were enjoyable, the rate of bad/cheating opponents I faced in AB was way above normal; 4 out of 21, as opposed to a rate more like 1/30 or 1/40 in other tournaments. Of course the majority were fine, still; 4 out of 21 jerks still means 17 were fun or at least okay.

All that being said, clearly Ardboyz was an appealing event to a lot of folks and had its upsides. I only played in it the last three years, but I did find that at the Regionals and Finals at least (and at some Local events) the competition was generally good, and players experienced enough to often get their games finished within the time allotted. Overall it was a fun event for me, despite its flaws.

I’ll be a bit saddened to see it go, because I do think overall it’s better to have more events, most of my games were enjoyable, and the prize support was nice. But clearly GW’s US Trade Sales department had been treating it as a lower and lower priority over the last five years, and it had a lot of flaws and problems. Hopefully it’ll be replaced by something better; a new format which will be equally or more enjoyable and continue luring infrequent-tournament-attendees out to play. In the meanwhile, thankfully, there are a ton of good events out there, and we do have a lot of other options. I hope some of the folks who just came out to play at AB make a point of attending other tournaments. For the most part they’re a ton of fun.

Nice post, Mann! And this:

Mannahnin wrote:In the meanwhile, thankfully, there are a ton of good events out there, and we do have a lot of other options. I hope some of the folks who just came out to play at AB make a point of attending other tournaments. For the most part they’re a ton of fun.

Couldn't be more true, and I hope a lot of people who would've been attending 'Ard Boyz will try some other (equally competitive) independent events to "fill the avoid" so to speak.

Odominus wrote:
How by posting in an "Ard Boyz is Cancelled" thread? That's all it takes around here start hurling insults? How sad. Bye dakka.

A quick survey of your posts shows a very spotty attendance of Dakka anyway, so I'm sure we won't really miss you. And the content you did "contribute" to Dakka was nothing but half-hearted plugs of your sparse podcast, and the rest was only you asking about 'Ardboyz, with a heavy emphasis on discussing the prize support. So that is to say you didn't really contribute that much at all I'm afraid, so you probably won't be missed, or even remembered.

As far as your obvious interest in 'Ard Boyz (and your posts are all we have to go on), it's no wonder you feel offended and "singled" by nkelsch, but maybe you're offended because you feel it hits a little too close to home? If not, well then what he is saying are just words on the internet (and he never personally attacked anyone) so it's all up to you how you choose to react/converse with your gaming peers, and you seem to have chosen poorly.

Just on the main topic (I typically don't read through 7-page threads ), I'd like to say that it's no great loss on my part. I actually learned about it at my FLGS last evening, and one player was pissed off, because he'd started Blood Angels (and been building towards having a killer army) because of 'Ard Boyz. I mean, I know it's not the only cause, but 'Ard Boyz definitely contributed to players at my FLGS being a lot more competitive and WAAC. As a purely casual player, it's not a great loss for me.

Thunderfrog wrote:

"I did. Gaming the system to get more people than deserve it to the later rounds is one of the problems of 'ard boyz. People purposefully look for poorly run 'ard boyz with low attendance to increase their chances of winning and due to the totally inconsistent nature and organization of 'ardboyz, it works. It is dubious to operate in that fashion to try to 'win' by selecting areas with easier opponents or poor organization or bad organizers to increase your chance of reaching the finals, almost as if the first round doesn't matter and is a formality. It doesn't speak to the quality fo the event or the true competitive nature if people are able to do this. Even if they are not purposely cheating like many of the other people who do quit on Saturday and then play at a location which had their 'ard boyz on sunday, it is all around bad.

Why not get your 10 buddies and go to adpeticon or something and play some of the best people in the nation in a well-run event with real missions and a actually fair point value and have fun with your buddies all meeting up at the top tables with all your skill? Or do you need to find a 'ard boyz with 9 participants run by a dude at a model train store who knows nothing about GW games and has no judges enforcing rules to 'win' your way skillfully into the finals?

'Ardboyz was a total trainwreck mess and represented no skill. Anyone who was driving out of area to find easier opponents is what is wrong with tourneys in my opinion. Grow a sack and go to a national or regional indy event and get your skull caved in as there are some amazing players out there at these events that make 'ard boyz look like a joke. "

Nkelsch,

Stop using absolutes. You've been doing your best to offend anyone who is sad to see the format go since the moment this thread started. I don't care which mods are holding your hand, you've been outright offensive while being slippery enough to avoid using names in particular. You've gone from calling friends who don't want to play each other in the first couple rounds cheaters to accusing fans of the format to not having nutsacks? You've sanctimoniously suggested that Ard' Boyz goers should focus on what really matters ( to you ) .. things like improving painting and modeling so that they have prettier armies? Here's a question..what if they just want to play? Even though we share the same hobby, we don't enjoy it the same way and you seem incapable of recognizing that.

Throwing out blanket statements like "This is better for everyone." will do nothing other than rile up readers. Some people cant afford the trip to a large event, and their local ard' boyz was the most premier event they could attend even if it isn't considered the premier event in Warhammer or 40k.

My last bit of beef is your accusation of cheating by fanning out to other areas. Our store in Oklahoma is extremely proud of our competitive nature. A lot of our lists are mean, trimmed, and meant solely for winning. That's okay, because it's what we like. We often travel in groups of 3 or 4 to other stores to compete with their best players.. it's a bit of braggin rights for the boys in each store. So when Ard' Boyz rolls around, we travel up to 5 or 6 hours away in two or three man groups to compete with the other stores in Oklahoma, Texas, and Kansas. This isn't some weird consipracy to undermine the circuit, but for us to expand and compete outside of our safety blanket of friends and relatives.

TL;DR

Nkelsch, it seems like your trying to provoke people on purpose. Cut it out and calm down. You can state your opinion without calling Ard Boyz fans untalented hacks who cant cut it with the old guys who drive to the expensive gt's because we cheat and dont have testicles and were part of some secret society of tournament despoilers who want to completely destroy the hobby and drown the warhammer world in unsanded waves of evil grey plastic. ( Can't remember if this includes every one of your offensive generalisations or not? Did I miss any?)

In the short time I've been here that seems to be Nkelsch's MO. And as soon as anyone calls him out, a bunch of others come out of the woodwork to defend his poor behavior.

Locclo wrote:Just on the main topic (I typically don't read through 7-page threads ), I'd like to say that it's no great loss on my part. I actually learned about it at my FLGS last evening, and one player was pissed off, because he'd started Blood Angels (and been building towards having a killer army) because of 'Ard Boyz. I mean, I know it's not the only cause, but 'Ard Boyz definitely contributed to players at my FLGS being a lot more competitive and WAAC. As a purely casual player, it's not a great loss for me.

I can relate to the guy. All my armies are built to the 2500pt level with multiple options. This is a big hit on my models to deployable lists availability(not to bad because 2000pts is the new 1850pts around here). More dust collectors I guess.

IMO There is something refreshing about showing up to a tourney knowing you stomp face or get stomped. I know, I know... waac, sportsmanship, puppy dog tails, and all that, but 'ard boys was a relief from hurting feelings and getting jacked on sportsmanship points and composition.

Also, I think a lot more players played in this event than indicated in this thread. Maybe attendance fell off the last few years, but all the tourney players and curious casual gamers would muster for this one for the most part. It was the one national event that "came to you" in most cases.

BTW- Great post Mannahnin. Very insightful and spot on to what I think the majority point of view would be. The scenarios where getting pretty weak.

helium42 wrote:

In the short time I've been here that seems to be Nkelsch's MO. And as soon as anyone calls him out, a bunch of others come out of the woodwork to defend his poor behavior.

Hahaha, yeah right, people disagree with me all the time. I am opinionated but sometimes people actually agree with me. I would hardly catergorize myself as someone who gets blanket support from most of dakka. (check a WYSIWYG thread) In a thread where mikhaila, one of the most respected posters on Dakka was called a 'troll', you can expect people to defend him.

The wide range of terrible experiences reported by people who attended 'ard boyz on Dakka speak for themselves. Mannahnin was right, the only things lost is most tourneys are not 2500pts, most tourneys require minimum appearance, and most tourneys are not free. If a community wants that format, then a TO can run one... It seems like most communities seem to like the formats of the indy events already run which has minimum appearance requirements, lower points and cost money to support the prize support.

I do not think I could agree more, Mannahnin.

Thank you for posting that.

Personally I have seen ardboyz events through the years that were both good experiences and ones that made me just want to quit the game altogether, but in the end it's a personal choice and I like to view it as Coke vs. Pepsi. You either love it or hate it honestly and though personally I am happy to see it go but I understand others who will be upset. In the end I hope Ed finds a good job or company to pass on his years of experience too, and I for one am disapointed to see him go. I have chatted with him numerous times in the past and found him to be a straight up guy who will not go out of his way to screw you over, unlike certain other GW employees.

Also anyone attacking the OP on his credability you really need to do a little research first or spend some more time on dakka as everyone here knows and loves Mike and for anyone to call him into question shows some real class act stupidity on their part.

Well count me in as one sorry to see it go

But, the time slots were too short for the points/average skill level involved. I'd love to see a 2k, standard missions (one of each) GW supported tournament in early August. 'Ard Boyz is the big event everyone in our region plays and I can guarantee that it drove summer sales up. If GW doesn't replace it and soon, I'd be shocked if they don't take sales hit in the second quarter for it.

I agree with all of the above who posted that they were glad its gone. I Fully agree that it fostered a style of play that made WAAC gaming the norm. Good riddance.

yakface wrote:


Anyone using even a decent sized army never had any real chance of finishing games (unless they were an amazingly fast player and were playing against a speedy opponent with a small army).

In reality, 'ard boyz was just an exercise of seeing who could master the 3-4 turn game...which is ridiculous as an overall concept.

So I'll say a not-so-fond farewell to the tournament. It will not be missed by me, for one. We have so many independent T.O.'s running so much better and varied tournaments, that it should R.I.P.

Games ending on turn 3 and 4 could be said about a lot of tournaments, depending on who you play. Using the new Necrons, a lot of people have little, if no experience in dealing with them. Except for 7 of 13 of my last opponents on average took about 20 minutes more than me per turn in the last few tournaments, and thats with using a footcron list. Its not the TOs fault but the players if games only last that long. Or was this a 2500 pt tourney?

Thunderfrog wrote:Made the mistake of double posting, but apparently it isn't just cancelled this year, but for good with plans to replace it with an RT style tournament.

I know a lot of elitists who hate plastic grey are saying good riddance, but I think this is not a change for the better. You may be okay playing your same 4 chums with immaculate armies, but I liked playing just whoever has the mini's around and the strategy to win. Any objectional score is a poor scoring category in my point of view (which will obviously differ from some here.) I've played in RT's with lists built to win in both 40k and Fantasy and been docked comp over a special character or purely by virtue of playing GK's.

It was nice to have a format with great prize support that was a multi stage tournament where to only goal was murder of your opponents plastic menz.

Besides, it's hard to beat that round 2 prize.

As someone that has won numerous 'good sportsman' awards in tournament play I respectfully disagree with you.

I never played it and I'm sorry to see it go, because it was a tourney of a kind, there are other tourneys to appeal to other styles and it's passing is a diminishing of variety.

Defeatmyarmy wrote:

yakface wrote:
Anyone using even a decent sized army never had any real chance of finishing games (unless they were an amazingly fast player and were playing against a speedy opponent with a small army).

In reality, 'ard boyz was just an exercise of seeing who could master the 3-4 turn game...which is ridiculous as an overall concept.

So I'll say a not-so-fond farewell to the tournament. It will not be missed by me, for one. We have so many independent T.O.'s running so much better and varied tournaments, that it should R.I.P.

Games ending on turn 3 and 4 could be said about a lot of tournaments, depending on who you play. Using the new Necrons, a lot of people have little, if no experience in dealing with them. Except for 7 of 13 of my last opponents on average took about 20 minutes more than me per turn in the last few tournaments, and thats with using a footcron list. Its not the TOs fault but the players if games only last that long. Or was this a 2500 pt tourney?

'Ard Boys was 2500 points, yes.

I could totally be up for a 2500pt tournament done right. Say three hour rounds, starting at 9:00-9:30am, with a half hour lunch break.

You'd still get done at a reasonable hour but regular players (as opposed to speed-demons like me, and guys specifically using low-model-count armies) would have time to finish their games.

PapaPiggy wrote:Having to paint an entire army just to play in the tournament is just plain stupid to me. If i want to enter a tournament but can't finish painting, I either have to rush the paint job, making it look like crap or i don't get to play. That is just not right in my mind. Soft scores are needed. But painting shouldn't be apart of that.

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Its sad times to hear so many people happy that we lost something in the community.

That's the core point, you see.

People who like to play with painted armies disliked 'Ard Boyz because it legitimised playing with bare nekkid armies and therefore worked against everything they stood for.

IMO there are two different communities; people who want to play with painted armies, and people who want to play with unpainted armies. Only people who want to play with unpainted armies would be sad at the loss of support for that.

Kilkrazy wrote:

PapaPiggy wrote:Having to paint an entire army just to play in the tournament is just plain stupid to me. If i want to enter a tournament but can't finish painting, I either have to rush the paint job, making it look like crap or i don't get to play. That is just not right in my mind. Soft scores are needed. But painting shouldn't be apart of that.

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Its sad times to hear so many people happy that we lost something in the community.

That's the core point, you see.

People who like to play with painted armies disliked 'Ard Boyz because it legitimised playing with bare nekkid armies and therefore worked against everything they stood for.

IMO there are two different communities; people who want to play with painted armies, and people who want to play with unpainted armies. Only people who want to play with unpainted armies would be sad at the loss of support for that.

I'm going to disagree with you on a tiny fraction of the point you made there Kil..

I think it's more along the lines of there are people who want to play with and only with painted armies.. and people who don't think they should have to paint in order to play. Doesnt mean they only want grey plastic, but they don't think they should have to wait until there's nothing left unpainted in their setup.