Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Zogwort's Curse: Old Zogwort has the ability to transform a powerful enemy into a squig. Zogwort may use his curse as a psychic power instead of rolling on the Weirdboy psychic power chart. Choose an independent character that is within Zogwort's line of sight. If that character is within 18", both players roll a dice. If the Ork player scores higher, the target model is replaced with an angry squig under the control of your opponent. You must provide the squig model. It has the profile below and no wargear or special rules but is an independent character that counts as infantry.

Squig: WS4 BS0 S3 T2 W1 I3 A1 Ld 5 Sv-

Don't have the SoB rules so someone else will have to post St. C's rule

A Town Called Malus wrote:Zogwort's Curse: Old Zogwort has the ability to transform a powerful enemy into a squig. Zogwort may use his curse as a psychic power instead of rolling on the Weirdboy psychic power chart. Choose an independent character that is within Zogwort's line of sight. If that character is within 18", both players roll a dice. If the Ork player scores higher, the target model is replaced with an angry squig under the control of your opponent. You must provide the squig model. It has the profile below and no wargear or special rules but is an independent character that counts as infantry.

Squig: WS4 BS0 S3 T2 W1 I3 A1 Ld 5 Sv-

Don't have the SoB rules so someone else will have to post St. C's rule

Where is the problem? I don't get it! No really, ST.C is a squig...... thats it..... yea you remove the model, because it is being replaced.... which means that the first part, "Old Zogwort has the ability to transform a powerful enemy into a squig." Is rule not fluff under PSA's and BRB rules regarding them. SO YES ST.C is now the squig model! Yay! that one is solved!!!

White Dwarf wrote: Every time Celestine is removed as a casualty, place a counter to mark the spot where she 'died'. Roll a D6 at the start of each of your subsequent turns. If the result is "X" place her within "X" of the counter with "X" wounds restored. If Celestine would be placed within 1" of another model, move her by the minimum possible distance so she is no longer within 1". Celestine can act normally in a turn in which she 'resurrects'. Celestine does not award kill points to the enemy if she is alive on the battlefield at the end of the game

Certain parts [i]replaced[/i[ with "X" for obvios reasons.

SoB FAQ wrote:Q: Can Saint Celestine use her Miraculous Intervention
special rule against attacks that remove models from
play? (White Dwarf, August 2011, Page 103)
A: Yes.

Happyjew wrote:

White Dwarf wrote: Every time Celestine is removed as a casualty, place a counter to mark the spot where she 'died'. Roll a D6 at the start of each of your subsequent turns. If the result is "X" place her within "X" of the counter with "X" wounds restored. If Celestine would be placed within 1" of another model, move her by the minimum possible distance so she is no longer within 1". Celestine can act normally in a turn in which she 'resurrects'. Celestine does not award kill points to the enemy if she is alive on the battlefield at the end of the game

Certain parts [i]replaced[/i[ with "X" for obvios reasons.

SoB FAQ wrote:Q: Can Saint Celestine use her Miraculous Intervention
special rule against attacks that remove models from
play? (White Dwarf, August 2011, Page 103)
A: Yes.

So her rule works where she is removed as a casualty, either by normal means (shooting, CC etc.) or by suffering a Remove from Play attack.

And thus the argument. nos and rigeld (yes I know they are one person ) claim that since, the unit "St. Celestine" is no longer in play as such, she must be Removed from Play. The counter-argument is that she is still in play albeit with a new statline, wargear, and rules.

Happyjew wrote:And thus the argument. nos and rigeld (yes I know they are one person ) claim that since, the unit "St. Celestine" is no longer in play as such, she must be Removed from Play. The counter-argument is that she is still in play albeit with a new statline, wargear, and rules.

And she's less pretty.

Unless you're into squigs.

Which is perfectly fine if you keep it to yourself. You sicko.

You know why orks don't wear armor? Because squigs can hear it clanking a mile off.

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:

A Town Called Malus wrote:Zogwort's Curse: Old Zogwort has the ability to transform a powerful enemy into a squig. Zogwort may use his curse as a psychic power instead of rolling on the Weirdboy psychic power chart. Choose an independent character that is within Zogwort's line of sight. If that character is within 18", both players roll a dice. If the Ork player scores higher, the target model is replaced with an angry squig under the control of your opponent. You must provide the squig model. It has the profile below and no wargear or special rules but is an independent character that counts as infantry.

Squig: WS4 BS0 S3 T2 W1 I3 A1 Ld 5 Sv-

Don't have the SoB rules so someone else will have to post St. C's rule

Where is the problem? I don't get it! No really, ST.C is a squig...... thats it..... yea you remove the model, because it is being replaced.... which means that the first part, "Old Zogwort has the ability to transform a powerful enemy into a squig." Is rule not fluff under PSA's and BRB rules regarding them. SO YES ST.C is now the squig model! Yay! that one is solved!!!

How is that a rule not fluff? What are you babbling about with regards to PSAs in the BRB?

This comes down to a question we are starting to see arise more and more often:

Is RFP different from RFPaaC?

Replacement effects (that is, effects that replace a model) are definitely NOT RFPaaC. This is in an FAQ. The only way Celestine can recover from being replaced is if you assume that a replacement effect removes a model from play, but not as a casualty.

This decision has other implications. For example, no necron model will be able to reanimate from JotWW if you decide that RFP is a different thing.

Appealing to simplicity and consistency, I think each of these classifications should be aggregated, because it is the simplest solution and it is the easiest for players to understand. JotWW would thus become a RFPaaC. All replacement effects (via the FAQ) do not remove models as casualties, but instead replace them (which means the model simply becomes represented by another in gaming terms).

The RaW is genuinely contradictory and confusing, and even thought ymmv, you'llget better mileage out of a consistent system rather than a complicated one with multiple, single-instance exceptions.

A Town Called Malus wrote:So her rule works where she is removed as a casualty, either by normal means (shooting, CC etc.) or by suffering a Remove from Play attack.

There is no such thing defined as "removed from play attacks" for WH40k though. Neither is the term "replace" defined as being something different than removing a model. You can not replace a model without removing it.

1) Either MI works like everliving (exact same wording suggests so), then Celestine can not come back from becoming a squig or a chaos spawn. In turn everliving would also work against getting hit by a SAG, JotWW or similar effects.

2) MI does not work like everliving, then it actually works of the model leaving the game for whatever reason. Replacing a model includes leaving the game. Since this would lead to a number of Squigs or Chaosspawns off the same Model, i'd rather think this is not intended.

Bottom line, talk with your opponent before the game.

Kitzz and Jidmah, very good, this is indeed the crux of the matter - the lingering uncertainty over whether RFP and RFPaaC are well defined and distinct, or loosely defined and interchangeable.

Any decision made here will set a precedent for that argument, and while we're only going to get St. Celestine turned into a squig some half-dozen times between now and the heat-death of the universe, we're likely to have a half-dozen Necron casualties from JotWW in the very next Necron/SW matchup. So, nobody wants to take a soft stance on this one, in case it gets used against them down the line.

looks like one of those roll off things, after all.

I guess I was wrong earlier. Also, when does this ever come up, because, who uses Old Zogwort, and the chances of playing a Sisters of Battle Player at the same time?

:O (I kid.)

I have seen a game with Old Zog once and I have never played against a SoB player. (Having actually seen one at a tournament other than myself. I see myself all the time.)

(Having actually seen one at a tournament other than myself. I see myself all the time.)

I know a good eye doctor if you ever stop seeing yourself =)

Also, along the road to madness, what if I used Dante against St.C and now she has lower leadership or w/e the heck that mask thing does. And my opponent actually had a different St. C model that had a sad face on it that he calls Sad St. C. Does he get both a token as well as a 2nd different saint C? The origional one was replaced!

Umm. Yeah, you don't replace the model when Dante uses his power, so there wouldn't be multiple St Cs.

As above. The stats are lowered, nothing else happens.

But if she dies and comes back does she still have negative effects. Or is she a new model. if you do say she comes back with negative modifiers when would they go away. If ever. And what rule would be used as a precedent.

There is no indication that it would go away after she dies. Dante's rule says 'For the remainder of the battle.'

Ahh was not familiar with Dante.

I think to be fair she should still come back when the squig dies... come back as a squig...

Now hypothetical she under the effects of Dante then she is squiged, now if she came back and you got a squig (your opinion not mine.). Would dante effect the squig or st.c since she has been replaced.

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:Now hypothetical she under the effects of Dante then she is squiged, now if she came back and you got a squig (your opinion not mine.). Would dante effect the squig or st.c since she has been replaced.

The squig would not be affected since Dante's power affects a IC model

Can we just let this thread die? Geeze.

(the squig is an IC)

You obviously missed the bold text. Dante's power works on a MODEL. Is the squig the MODEL that Dante used his power on? No, the St Celestine MODEL is.

Real quick, for nos/rigeld.

1. If St C can use MI to come back from being a squig, does the squig model get removed?
2. If not, can she be squigified while there is already a former St C squig on the table?
3. Also, does every time she gets squigified, and the squig killed does the Ork player get a KP?

Happyjew wrote:Real quick, for nos/rigeld.

1. If St C can use MI to come back from being a squig, does the squig model get removed?
2. If not, can she be squigified while there is already a former St C squig on the table?
3. Also, does every time she gets squigified, and the squig killed does the Ork player get a KP?

These three have already been answered in this thread.

1) Of course not.
2) Yes.
3) Of course.

pretre wrote:These three have already been answered in this thread..

I tend to lose tracks of the various question being asked/answered once a thread hits 5+ pages. If it gives me more KP (especially in Annihilation) then she can come back all she wants. As well as Necrons, Thrawn, Yarrick, etc.

pretre wrote:

Happyjew wrote:Real quick, for nos/rigeld.

1. If St C can use MI to come back from being a squig, does the squig model get removed?
2. If not, can she be squigified while there is already a former St C squig on the table?
3. Also, does every time she gets squigified, and the squig killed does the Ork player get a KP?

These three have already been answered in this thread.

1) Of course not.
2) Yes.
3) Of course.

What he said.

Thawn isnt an IC, ever.

Happyjew wrote:And thus the argument. nos and rigeld (yes I know they are one person ) claim that since, the unit "St. Celestine" is no longer in play as such, she must be Removed from Play. The counter-argument is that she is still in play albeit with a new statline, wargear, and rules.

Actually going by Nos' post count, he is actually 4 people (each of whom have absolutely no time to be rigeld2).