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J Mac wrote:

Omegus wrote:

BladeWalker wrote:Did not see the Glaive Encarmine in the FAQ, is it in the Rulebook chart? Does it depend if it is an axe/sword/etc or is it one profile? Wondering what happened to my Glaives with edition change. I am loving that I mixed in axes with my Vanguards, they can truly handle about anything now.

They are "unusual power weapons", so AP3 power swords, essentially.

I don't think so. They are labeled in their entry as "master crafted power weapons." clearly stating it is a power weapon. Unusual power weapon would be something in its entry listed like a "power flail" or "power mace". The fact that it is a power weapon means however it is modeled, becomes the ruling for it.

Not a fan of how this works, as it abuses modeling for advantage, which is something GW has ALWAYS been against. However, they have balanced every profile to make somewhat fair. For example, power maul grants +2 str but is only AP4, or the axe which is +1 str at AP2, but will strike last due to unwieldy.

So I modeled my Sanguinary Guard with Halberds... at the time I was just fulfilling the two handed power weapon requirement but now what do I do? Are they Unusual AP3 or Spears? If they didn't look so damn cool I would switch out the weapons, I'll play them however the rules say I just don't know for sure what to call them...

Stoffer wrote:
Astorath is huge for the 1-3 red thirst though. If you're running a list with a lot of infantry (Devs, scouts and/or assault marines) he might be worth it purely for the 50/50 chance of FnP. I don't like FNP much for assaulting units after it was nerfed, but if I have 3 dev squads with FnP they become a bitch to dig out. Bikes, dreads, you name it, red thirst is valuable.

Edit: You can basically math your way out of it. If you have something like 7 infantry units with red thirst, Astorath becomes worth if in place of priests.

Red thirst does not give you FNP.
It's furious charge and fearless
Edit: Ninja'd ; )

BladeWalker wrote:

J Mac wrote:

Omegus wrote:

BladeWalker wrote:Did not see the Glaive Encarmine in the FAQ, is it in the Rulebook chart? Does it depend if it is an axe/sword/etc or is it one profile? Wondering what happened to my Glaives with edition change. I am loving that I mixed in axes with my Vanguards, they can truly handle about anything now.

They are "unusual power weapons", so AP3 power swords, essentially.

I don't think so. They are labeled in their entry as "master crafted power weapons." clearly stating it is a power weapon. Unusual power weapon would be something in its entry listed like a "power flail" or "power mace". The fact that it is a power weapon means however it is modeled, becomes the ruling for it.

Not a fan of how this works, as it abuses modeling for advantage, which is something GW has ALWAYS been against. However, they have balanced every profile to make somewhat fair. For example, power maul grants +2 str but is only AP4, or the axe which is +1 str at AP2, but will strike last due to unwieldy.

So I modeled my Sanguinary Guard with Halberds... at the time I was just fulfilling the two handed power weapon requirement but now what do I do? Are they Unusual AP3 or Spears? If they didn't look so damn cool I would switch out the weapons, I'll play them however the rules say I just don't know for sure what to call them...

Halberds could be considered a lance(spear) weapon. I would consider them a lance weapon, however since they are a bit "unusual" they could be considered an AP3 weapon. Honestly, I would leave it up to your preference and as long as you make it clear with your opponent ahead of the battle, should be no problem. As I said before, GW has balanced the PW varieties and they all have their pros and cons. However, I could see some WAAC opponent insisting it is one or the either. TFG is a jerk, and just play by his rules if you don't really care.

BladeWalker wrote:

J Mac wrote:

Omegus wrote:

BladeWalker wrote:Did not see the Glaive Encarmine in the FAQ, is it in the Rulebook chart? Does it depend if it is an axe/sword/etc or is it one profile? Wondering what happened to my Glaives with edition change. I am loving that I mixed in axes with my Vanguards, they can truly handle about anything now.

They are "unusual power weapons", so AP3 power swords, essentially.

I don't think so. They are labeled in their entry as "master crafted power weapons." clearly stating it is a power weapon. Unusual power weapon would be something in its entry listed like a "power flail" or "power mace". The fact that it is a power weapon means however it is modeled, becomes the ruling for it.

Not a fan of how this works, as it abuses modeling for advantage, which is something GW has ALWAYS been against. However, they have balanced every profile to make somewhat fair. For example, power maul grants +2 str but is only AP4, or the axe which is +1 str at AP2, but will strike last due to unwieldy.

So I modeled my Sanguinary Guard with Halberds... at the time I was just fulfilling the two handed power weapon requirement but now what do I do? Are they Unusual AP3 or Spears? If they didn't look so damn cool I would switch out the weapons, I'll play them however the rules say I just don't know for sure what to call them...

Pretty sure a Halberd is counted as a Power Axe according to the entry for Power Axes. The only exception is GK halberds which follow their own rules since they are "unusual" power weapons.

I could see that, lets count it as a Power Lance/Axe!!! +3str on the charge at I1

haha, I'm joking obviously. Maybe since it is such a debate, it should be unusual and it really is AP3 ccw.

J Mac wrote:

BladeWalker wrote:

J Mac wrote:

Omegus wrote:

BladeWalker wrote:Did not see the Glaive Encarmine in the FAQ, is it in the Rulebook chart? Does it depend if it is an axe/sword/etc or is it one profile? Wondering what happened to my Glaives with edition change. I am loving that I mixed in axes with my Vanguards, they can truly handle about anything now.

They are "unusual power weapons", so AP3 power swords, essentially.

I don't think so. They are labeled in their entry as "master crafted power weapons." clearly stating it is a power weapon. Unusual power weapon would be something in its entry listed like a "power flail" or "power mace". The fact that it is a power weapon means however it is modeled, becomes the ruling for it.

Not a fan of how this works, as it abuses modeling for advantage, which is something GW has ALWAYS been against. However, they have balanced every profile to make somewhat fair. For example, power maul grants +2 str but is only AP4, or the axe which is +1 str at AP2, but will strike last due to unwieldy.

So I modeled my Sanguinary Guard with Halberds... at the time I was just fulfilling the two handed power weapon requirement but now what do I do? Are they Unusual AP3 or Spears? If they didn't look so damn cool I would switch out the weapons, I'll play them however the rules say I just don't know for sure what to call them...

Halberds could be considered a lance(spear) weapon. I would consider them a lance weapon, however since they are a bit "unusual" they could be considered an AP3 weapon. Honestly, I would leave it up to your preference and as long as you make it clear with your opponent ahead of the battle, should be no problem. As I said before, GW has balanced the PW varieties and they all have their pros and cons. However, I could see some WAAC opponent insisting it is one or the either. TFG is a jerk, and just play by his rules if you don't really care.

This is an excellent point. The power weapons are balanced to each other and cost the same in army lists so you could use any profile as long as you are consistent and can justify it with the model. I had no idea my spartan themed sanguinary guard would get so complicated. Thanks for the feedback.

The Glaive Encarmine entries specifies two handed but I don't know if that helps to tell the difference between axe or spear profile?

J Mac wrote:

Omegus wrote:

BladeWalker wrote:Did not see the Glaive Encarmine in the FAQ, is it in the Rulebook chart? Does it depend if it is an axe/sword/etc or is it one profile? Wondering what happened to my Glaives with edition change. I am loving that I mixed in axes with my Vanguards, they can truly handle about anything now.

They are "unusual power weapons", so AP3 power swords, essentially.

I don't think so. They are labeled in their entry as "master crafted power weapons." clearly stating it is a power weapon. Unusual power weapon would be something in its entry listed like a "power flail" or "power mace". The fact that it is a power weapon means however it is modeled, becomes the ruling for it.

Not a fan of how this works, as it abuses modeling for advantage, which is something GW has ALWAYS been against. However, they have balanced every profile to make somewhat fair. For example, power maul grants +2 str but is only AP4, or the axe which is +1 str at AP2, but will strike last due to unwieldy.

Check the FAQ and notice Lemartes' entry. His Blood Crozius weapon is a power maul, while the Codex itself specifies that it is a master-crafted power weapon. Obviously, the fancy-shmancy name doesn't matter, it's what it is in effect that is key. Hence Glaive Encarmines are master-crafted power weapons, since a fancy name isn't an extra special rule. Also since it doesn't specify whether they're swords, I would assume that Sanguinary Guard can be modelled with either/or legally (and you won't even be TFG since the box comes with axes).

Yeah, I'd probably use their swords but I'm glad the option is available to me if it's true.

I'd say three with swords, one with an axe and one with a fist. More AP2 for free isn't bad.

Omegus wrote:The big question is whether the Raven's special disembarkation rule works when zooming. The rulebook states models cannot embark or disembark from a zooming flier, but they can't do that from a transport moving flat-out either, and the Raven has a special rule for that situation. Is this in either the IG or Blood Angels FAQ? I can't access GW's site from work, unfortunately.

No question or FAQ needed. It follows the same logic with the Vendetta and follows as such;

A 'Zooming' flier can either move at combat speed or cruising speed. Skies of blood (/grav chute insertion) require you to move flat out. Simples Sorry! All wrong, zooming fliers can move flat-out. So you can do it by the same logic.

Griever wrote:I'd get to get some thoughts on how people are going to field their DA.

I think Jump Packs are still too expensive, and I want to exploit the new Rapid Fire + Relentless rules. So I'm looking at fielding 10-15 on foot with Bolters and 1-2 power fists. I have also considered Drop Podding them in, but I hate actually buying Drop Pod models. $40 for something that lets me Deep Strike a unit and then sits there and does nothing? Meh.

Not a fan of the Stormravens either, I think they're just too expensive and you end up with two 200 point vehicles toting around 400 points worth of stuff (DC + DC Dread) and that's pretty much your army.

DC Dreads are awesome, Str 10 I4 5 attacks on the charge is NICE, but once again, it's Drop Pod (meh) or Stormraven (meh).

Furioso Librarians costs 175pts compared to the 165pts of a DC Dread & DP not to mention the 60pts+ on DC. Fleet doesn't allow you to travel further (i.e. faster) it merely makes that movement more reliable, so effectively everything without fleet has become a bit quicker. The libbie gets 5-7 attacks and AV13 whilst the DC dread gets 7 attacks and AV12. Adding wings to cover ground more quickly.. I think if your not including a strong core of DC, then the Furioso libbie is the better option compared to the DC dread.

Also in a thread related note - How do we fit in either;
1) Lots of troops, potentially MSU (Lots of combat squads?)
2)Troops + Fast Attack & Heavy Support?

I think that depends, people were mentioning earlier about possible loss of fast rules for the BA transports? I'm still waiting on my rulebook (stupidly asked them to deliver it here) but that might affect my take on the questions you've asked here.

Zooming fliers can also go flat out, so that's not an answer. And skies of blood has been FAQd to change "flat out" to "more than 6"".

Omegus wrote:Zooming fliers can also go flat out, so that's not an answer. And skies of blood has been FAQd to change "flat out" to "more than 6"".

I just realised my mistake (see edit) but now you mention the FAQ (good spot) so.. yeah! Cheers

Does this mean that the Stormraven can have units disembark if it zooms?

Red Comet wrote:Does this mean that the Stormraven can have units disembark if it zooms?

As I understand it, yes. However, it's considered a deep strike, so you lose the ability to assault.

It'd only be for units with Jump Packs too, so 6 guys max.

Yeah, transporting jump infantry in those strikes me as odd, although at least now you could conceivably get some sort of MSU build out of it (but it'd be insane and they'd be blown out of the sky unless you plan accordingly)

That'd be the smallest MSU list ever haha. Especially since you'd be running 4 Stormravens (including a GK ally), tops. Not to mention the expense, points-wise.

Andilus Greatsword wrote:That'd be the smallest MSU list ever haha. Especially since you'd be running 4 Stormravens (including a GK ally), tops. Not to mention the expense, points-wise.

QFT. I........very much doubt I'd ever try it.

You don't have to have jump packs to use the raven's special rule.

For missions where you play length-wise, it may be a good way to get that DC and Chaplain far up the board without risking losing the whole unit if the raven gets blown out of the sky.

I think I remember reading something about hovering to use it. Ill double check when i get home.

t's the best assault unit we have. 10 DC compared to a unit of similar cost termies. claw, hammer whatever. termies wont win even with saves. Termies are tougher yes but thats not what i'm saying. to win you first have to kill stuff and nothing does it quiet like DC.

How do you outfit your DC? I'd opt for 2 power fists per 10 DC Marines.

DoA seems very good now.
You get re-roll for reserves don't you? So 3+ turn two with re-roll= nearly whole army on the bored turn two.
Ahh, but are you allowed to keep your whole army in reserve? (sorry if its been discussed already, i've been reading through most of the army discussions on here, and haven't looked at every page of all of them).

rodgers37 wrote:DoA seems very good now.
You get re-roll for reserves don't you? So 3+ turn two with re-roll= nearly whole army on the bored turn two.
Ahh, but are you allowed to keep your whole army in reserve? (sorry if its been discussed already, i've been reading through most of the army discussions on here, and haven't looked at every page of all of them).

No, just half of the army can be kept in reserve. Therefore a hybrid list seems to be the way to go.

For instance, some durable tanks like Preds and Vindies supported by Dread and the rest Assault Marines with jump packs. I'd take full squads with 2 meltas each. If combat squadded, one half can go for the enemy tanks and the other half goes for objectives.

Wuestenfux how is that good now? You have a lack of vehicle saturation so wouldn't it be easier to kill the vehicle portions or am I just thinking about this as if its 5th Edition?

The tank base would be to crack open transports and get the meaty parts out. Also to hopefully smash heavy support. With Vindicators now S10 on the entire template you have higher chances of doing just that. Hope for transports being close together and slap the template over 2 of them. 2nd wave comes in turn 2 with re-rolls.

Also I'm concidering Capt. Tycho more now as Dead Man's hand flat out ignores armor and a 2+ armor save.

Yeah, on Tycho's part, and now at least if somebody chooses to take his DC variant he's a little less hilarious a choice XD

I was building up my own BA DOA army when 6th dropped, now I am working with this mind-boggling amount of info (btw, thanks for all of these wonderful discussions!)

I had been tossing around the idea of a VV Squad, 5 strong, with fun weapons to kill things. Now that wound allocation is different, and PW are AP3, i have a few questions. (My Rulebook won't arrive till the 11th, grrrrrrrr) Q1: Do Thunder hammers ignore armor? I would think so, since they are closer related to PFs.

I had also played around with Storm Shields, trying to get a feel for their staying power vs cost. In setup 1, I had TH Serg 2x Double Lightning Claw Vets, and 2 plain vets. The idea was to cause damage and get into combat to avoid getting shot. Setup 2 was Serg and 2x Vets with 1 LC and 1 SS. Steal dishing out plenty of pain, but additional staying power. In both cases, the 2 plain vets kept points down and were for wound allocation. So the questions:

Q2: More of a "see what the discussion brings", but what setup do you think would preform best? Now that LC don't kill TEQs, their sole purpose will be to hunt down troops/heavy weapon squads. From my limited experence with them, Setup 1 (litterally) cuts to the chase for cheaper but dies easier. Setup 2 might be much better this time to get the 3+ Inv vs Heavy Weapon Snap Fire.

Q3: What to do with the two plain guys? position them to replicate the allocation fodder of old? Or spend the points to match the rest of the unit? I could see more of an argument to match them in Setup 2, to get matching saves.

I also feel kind of dumb, a month or two ago I traded in my DC at my FLGS to help buy more standard Assault Troops. That I have not assembled yet, and that I am cutting to add a DC back in....... Oh look, its Captain Hindsight!

Well, naturally if you're making a VV squad yeah, SS will be a must, but I'd be probably willing to say that in a squad of 5, maybe 2 or 3 SS might be a good investment, with TH or PF as the likely other armament. But if you're really thinking of making it a strong anti-TEQ squad, perhaps a couple more men or at least just pack on storm shields and then just HI right into their ranks, break 'em.

But I dunno, I really haven't had much experience with them. TH's would be helpful though, and I'd consider maybe just like, 1 guy bearing dual LC's or 2 with 1 LC and SS, just to have some diversity and take out mooks if they are still alive after fighting termies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
and I'm really pleased with all the discussion too! The BA with 6th are a force to be reckoned with.

For Question 1 I'd tell you that yes Thunder Hammers can take down Terminators since they are either AP2 or AP1. I can't recall at the moment.

Question 2: I think it might be best to figure out for yourself depending on the rest of your list. It all depends on what role you want the squad to have or if you just want an all comers squad.

Question 3: I'd use those random guys to take the hits that the Sgt. could possibly die to using Look Out Sir! Just make sure they are within 6 inches of the Sarge.