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Kaldor wrote:

Phazael wrote:Both of those guys are much better fluff writers than Ward, even if you gave them a brick of crack cocaine and locked them in a room first.

See, that's what I don't get. Sure, the character of Draigo might bug a few people, but over-all the background in the Grey Knights dex is at least as good as the Wolves or IG, IMO.

To be fair, a lot of people, myself included, have as much issue with the SW fluff as with anything Ward put out, SW's just seem to be an isolated case with Kelly. IG really only have a couple derpy fluff pieces (Marbo and Chenkov), and most of the "feats" they accomplish aren't *too* out there (e.g. an experienced deathworlder killing a Lictor, or killing an Eldar Autarch with Heavy Bolter fire), they're at least believable that it could happen a couple times in an army of trillions, and not dudes walking out with no armor and defeating Greater Daemons as a matter of routine initiation into upper ranks

If Cruddace had something like Guardsmen characters slaying Khornate Berzerkers in hand to hand combat or a single guard regiment wiping out an Ork Waaagh, you'd probably see the same disdain, and the more incredible feats are couched when presented (e.g. "reports of....")

Codexes aren't written for adults, they're written for teenagers. That's fine and it's part of the reason why all started playing.
Black Library is where to go for fluff 4 grown upz.
The reason Matt Ward is unpopular is because he wrote the most recent codexes, which have all suffered from power creep.

A marine army that is essentially a more powerful space marine army for no apparent reason.

GK. Enough has been said about them.

The necron codex. Or alternatively, how to ruin 6th edition 40k.

Further codexes will stamp on these, probably hitting necron harder since they're most reliant on the ruleset.

Sorry, I just saw the words Matt Ward and already feel RAAAAAGGGGGEEEEE!

Matt Ward is the only guy who could write a codex and think that its ok to potentially make the other guys army attack itself 26 times in a single game.

And that leads me to the idea that possibly one of the main reasons why there is so much Ward hate is that for the most part they are unfun to play against if the right units are brought.

Nobody like that their (incert point cost here) killy hero suddenly attacks his own unit.

Nobody likes that their HQ looses 50ish points worth of stats just because Dante is on the other side of the table.

Nobody likes that after 2.5 hours of fighting (win or loose) only 10 grey knight models were removed from the table

Nobody likes that one dreadnaught can slaughter an entire ork mob in a single turn.

Nobody likes it when they loose 1/6 of their entire army every turn they decide to move. (I personally think that writhing world scape is the sole reason that in 6th ed you now get armor saves vs. Dangerous Terrain checks.)

When these things happen, it just makes the other guy really begin to wonder why they bothered to show up in the first place. It removes all sense that the fight might be fair.


I realize that there are things in all codexs that can create rediculiously one sided match ups. But the idea that most Ward codexs bring one or two of those such things to all fights regardless of the opponent might just rub people the wrong way.

Testify wrote:Codexes aren't written for adults, they're written for teenagers.

Written for teenagers, perhaps; but not written by teenagers. Really, Ward's fluff is something a twelve year old might write. And I don't think that this even is a good way to appeal to kids. Kids sense a bad and bland storytelling too, even if they might not be able to analyse it. There is no nuances in Ward's fluff, nothing to get, nothing that make one wonder and think about the setting. It is just loud and still bland.

Crimson wrote:

Testify wrote:Codexes aren't written for adults, they're written for teenagers.

Written for teenagers, perhaps; but not written by teenagers. Really, Ward's fluff is something a twelve year old might write. And I don't think that this even is a good way to appeal to kids. Kids sense a bad and bland storytelling too, even if they might not be able to analyse it. There is no nuances in Ward's fluff, nothing to get, nothing that make one wonder and think about the setting. It is just loud and still bland.

That's no different to any other codex. Why single Ward out? There's just no room in a codex for nuance.

GhostKnight31 wrote:I don't know why so much people hate Matt Ward he seems like a nice guy sure some of the fluff is a bit over the top but every codex has fluff where that race is basically invincible or nearly undefeatable. Also he created Kaldor Draigo yes I am a chaos marine player its just I watched this

Spoiler:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfJUi4cB4oc

(possibly off topic a little bit but had to be shown do not watch if you are offended by foul language as it has plenty of that) which showed how epic draigo is and possibly the most craziest character ever.
thank you matt ward now where is some warp dust

"No...no....please just f****ing kill me!"

I normally think most 40K humor is awful, but that was genuinely hilarious.

Kaldor wrote:
That's no different to any other codex. Why single Ward out? There's just no room in a codex for nuance.

This is not an issue with the lack of space, it is an issue with lack of talent. A good writer can manage to tell much with few words and a half decent one can atleast manage not to make the reader cringe. Quality of writing in GW codices certainly varies, and none are high literature, but if you cannot see how Ward's writing is way worse than average, I don't know what to say to you. Before I read Draigo fluff, I had just seen it reviled in the internet, but assumed it to be usual internet hyperbole. And then I read it. Frankly I cannot comprehend how GW ever allowed such an inane piece of drivel to be published. If you don't see it, then you don't. In the end it is a matter of taste, but I'd have to conclude that you have a horrible taste.

Kaldor wrote:

Crimson wrote:

Testify wrote:Codexes aren't written for adults, they're written for teenagers.

Written for teenagers, perhaps; but not written by teenagers. Really, Ward's fluff is something a twelve year old might write. And I don't think that this even is a good way to appeal to kids. Kids sense a bad and bland storytelling too, even if they might not be able to analyse it. There is no nuances in Ward's fluff, nothing to get, nothing that make one wonder and think about the setting. It is just loud and still bland.

That's no different to any other codex. Why single Ward out? There's just no room in a codex for nuance.

Again however, others manage to somehow write fluff that doesn't piss a large chunk of the community off on a consistent basis within the same space, often less. Draigo is one of the most reviled fluff pieces in 40k fluff and he got twice the page space of almost every other character out there.

Ward hate didn't materialize out of nowhere, there's a reason for it.

Twiqbal wrote:

GhostKnight31 wrote:I don't know why so much people hate Matt Ward he seems like a nice guy sure some of the fluff is a bit over the top but every codex has fluff where that race is basically invincible or nearly undefeatable. Also he created Kaldor Draigo yes I am a chaos marine player its just I watched this

Spoiler:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfJUi4cB4oc

(possibly off topic a little bit but had to be shown do not watch if you are offended by foul language as it has plenty of that) which showed how epic draigo is and possibly the most craziest character ever.
thank you matt ward now where is some warp dust

"No...no....please just f****ing kill me!"

I normally think most 40K humor is awful, but that was genuinely hilarious.

that was indeed a hilarious video, gold medal is awarded in youtube videos!!!

Crimson wrote:

Kaldor wrote:
That's no different to any other codex. Why single Ward out? There's just no room in a codex for nuance.

This is not an issue with the lack of space, it is an issue with lack of talent. A good writer can manage to tell much with few words and a half decent one can atleast manage not to make the reader cringe. Quality of writing in GW codices certainly varies, and none are high literature, but if you cannot see how Ward's writing is way worse than average, I don't know what to say to you. Before I read Draigo fluff, I had just seen it reviled in the internet, but assumed it to be usual internet hyperbole. And then I read it. Frankly I cannot comprehend how GW ever allowed such an inane piece of drivel to be published. If you don't see it, then you don't. In the end it is a matter of taste, but I'd have to conclude that you have a horrible taste.

The character is a little flat, but no more so than any other character in 40K. I don't get the hype.

I mean, it's one thing to say his writing is worse than average, but how can you really determine that? What is the average, and what examples from Ward fall below it? What makes Draigo worse than any other character ever written? What (apart from Draigo) makes the GK background worse than, say, the IG or Space Wolves? Or the Dark Angels? Or anyone else?

Twiqbal wrote:
"No...no....please just f****ing kill me!"

I normally think most 40K humor is awful, but that was genuinely hilarious.

"No one snorts warp dust but Heretics... and maybe Matt Ward..."

Twiqbal wrote:

GhostKnight31 wrote:I don't know why so much people hate Matt Ward he seems like a nice guy sure some of the fluff is a bit over the top but every codex has fluff where that race is basically invincible or nearly undefeatable. Also he created Kaldor Draigo yes I am a chaos marine player its just I watched this

Spoiler:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfJUi4cB4oc

(possibly off topic a little bit but had to be shown do not watch if you are offended by foul language as it has plenty of that) which showed how epic draigo is and possibly the most craziest character ever.
thank you matt ward now where is some warp dust

"No...no....please just f****ing kill me!"

I normally think most 40K humor is awful, but that was genuinely hilarious.

If you though that was funny check out the space Hulk one
I believe they should make this video part of the official fluff I mean its actually believable compared to some of Matt Wards fluff (Draigo can't beat up Mortarion that is just unfair) as it portrays Draigo how he should of been a mighty warrior who is completely high and insane due to using too much Warp Dust ("I like your Horn") also I believe all Grey Knights should have funny British accents.

Since we are on the topic of the Grey Knights in that hilarious video at about 6:49 onwards how the Grey Knight with the cool accent says if they trap the final Bloodletter (with an epic accent ) in a tesseract labyrinth if they did it in the actual 40k universe would that mean Draigo could stay in the material world with out having to go back to the warp (unless he need some more warp dust of course) to lead the Grey Knights into a new age of blind faith and unreasonable HATRED

Yeah

Hatred

Huzzah

finally
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4tmNhtf8ks&feature=relmfu

I do like their animation where they let everyone know that Games Workshop did not, in fact, have them all killed.

Noisy_Marine wrote:

gaovinni wrote:One thing I have to mention about Ward's codexes that really bothers me.

Take that ordinary 5 man marine squad without upgrades of anykind and compare it to an ordinary 5 man GK squad without upgrades. Their basic stat lines are the same, the same special rules that the marines have the GK have and a few more (I may remember wrong) and the GK are psykers in addittion, marines have a bolter and bolt pistol and GK instead have a storm bolter and a force weapon (correct me if I'm wrong), and the GK have a third type of grenade also. So what is wrong with all this? Only 10 point difference. That 5 man GK squad is only 10 points more expensive with all that extra gear and rules than the 5 man marine squad.

Does anyone else think that this is just plain wrong?

Yes. GK strike squads are stupidly cheap and far superior to tactical squads.

The entire concept of GK as a stand-alone army is just plain wrong (let alone their game-busting OTT rules). They should never have been separated from Ordo Malleus. And nothing else need be said about the utter hell-spawn abomination that is the GK fluff.

LordOfTheSloths wrote:The entire concept of GK as a stand-alone army is just plain wrong (let alone their game-busting OTT rules). They should never have been separated from Ordo Malleus. And nothing else need be said about the utter hell-spawn abomination that is the GK fluff.

Um, they haven't been separated from the Ordo Malleus. Where did you get that from?

And leaving Draigo aside, what is so bad about their background?

Kaldor wrote:
And leaving Draigo aside, what is so bad about their background?

Well, the anointing Sororitas Blood because they were not pure enough already to fight daemons was a bit eyebrow raising...

I dislike Matt Ward because his writing is subpar and 40k's rather unique (it stole from so many different things and ended up a bizarre fusion of Dune, Starship Troopers, Elric of Melnibone and a hundred other sources) setting is the only thing that separates it from hundreds of other strategy games, many quite better rule wise than 40k.

And by saying his writing was subpar, I mean this; would you read it if it wasn't part of 40k? Say there's no other 40k books, no game system and no huge Internet debate about him, would you actually read and enjoy reading his work?

Kaldor wrote:

Phazael wrote:Both of those guys are much better fluff writers than Ward, even if you gave them a brick of crack cocaine and locked them in a room first.

See, that's what I don't get. Sure, the character of Draigo might bug a few people, but over-all the background in the Grey Knights dex is at least as good as the Wolves or IG, IMO.

"Bug?" Most of us loathe Draigo. A guy who gets sucked into the warp (you know, where immortal beings live and he's a lone mortal against an infinite number of them), carves his predecessor's name into a Daemon PRIMARCH'S chest, then burns down a GOD'S garden and sacks a bunch of other stuff. It's the most unbelievable crap ever written in Warhammer. No matter how much you defend your namesake, he will always be a pile of fetid garbage that should have been aborted from Mat Ward's twisted male-uterus. Also, I like Codex: Necrons, dirty as it is. I think he did a good job with that one. But he needs to face severe punishment for Draigo's fluff. I have no problem with the model/rules in game, but his fluff is a true eye-raper.

BaronIveagh wrote:

Kaldor wrote:
And leaving Draigo aside, what is so bad about their background?

Well, the anointing Sororitas Blood because they were not pure enough already to fight daemons was a bit eyebrow raising...

lol, yes. The Bloodtide and Draigo are the only things I ever hear people complain about. And honestly, most of the people complaining about them don't seem to really know what they're on about, just jumping on the bandwagon rather than actually reading it.

LoneLictor wrote:And by saying his writing was subpar, I mean this; would you read it if it wasn't part of 40k? Say there's no other 40k books, no game system and no huge Internet debate about him, would you actually read and enjoy reading his work?

Well... I don't know.

More importantly, (draigo and bloodtide aside) would he be any less readable than any of the other codex writers?

timetowaste85 wrote:

Kaldor wrote:

Phazael wrote:Both of those guys are much better fluff writers than Ward, even if you gave them a brick of crack cocaine and locked them in a room first.

See, that's what I don't get. Sure, the character of Draigo might bug a few people, but over-all the background in the Grey Knights dex is at least as good as the Wolves or IG, IMO.

"Bug?" Most of us loathe Draigo. A guy who gets sucked into the warp (you know, where immortal beings live and he's a lone mortal against an infinite number of them), carves his predecessor's name into a Daemon PRIMARCH'S chest, then burns down a GOD'S garden and sacks a bunch of other stuff. It's the most unbelievable crap ever written in Warhammer. No matter how much you defend your namesake, he will always be a pile of fetid garbage that should have been aborted from Mat Ward's twisted male-uterus. Also, I like Codex: Necrons, dirty as it is. I think he did a good job with that one. But he needs to face severe punishment for Draigo's fluff. I have no problem with the model/rules in game, but his fluff is a true eye-raper.

Hyperbole much?

What were you expecting from him? I have no problem with any of his achievements. To be honest, how could he even exist in the warp if it wasn't at the will of the Chaos Gods? He's obviously there because that's where they want him to be. I like the imagery of a guy, totally alone in an alien plane with nothing to do but wander around kicking ass. It's kind of like a 40K version of Kung Fu.

My main complaint about him is that, apart from him kicking ass, we know nothing about him. He's quite flat. But then, every 40K character is.

In any event, he's certainly not as cringe-worthy as Sly Marbo.

I simply don't understand why, despite the beginning of the GK codex explaining that they use obscure sorceries, people take everything after that literally.

Dan Abnett said it best - "blades and flames seemed to have more effect on the foul creatures hbolt and bullet" (I'm paraphrasing ) We are dealing with creatures made purely out of emotion.

When Draigo "carved his predecessors name on the heart of the Daemon Primarch", surely it just means he matched him to the point of Mortarion taking notice and remembering him? The Bloodtide may indeed have been totally unnecessary - wouldn't that fit more with the grim-dark setting?

Don't take everything written in a book about sorcery literally. The interpretation is more important than what is being said.

Draigo is just WAY over the top. First thing he did was to carve his predecessors name to Daemon Primarch's heart. A frigging' DAEMON PRIMARCH. Way to build up one of the primary villains of the universe. And the same goes on. Apparently, very powerful Daemon Princes and Bloodthirsters aren't more than a snack to Draigo. Those are supposed to be some of the most powerful monsters imaginable you could meet in the game, and this guy beats them up like nothing. It reminds me of "Dick Marvil" from ab3's Binder of Shame.

There is other stuff, things like Titan being hidden in the Warp so time could pass faster...ok...whatever. If it's that easy, why they don't use it all the time for their advantage?

By contrast, as I said earlier, I don't hate Bloodtide incident. In fact, it's one of the better passages of the book and makes perfect sense as far as I am concerned. It perfectly embodies ruthlessness of the Grey Knights, and double standards which are evident within the Imperium everywhere.

Backfire wrote:Draigo is just WAY over the top. First thing he did was to carve his predecessors name to Daemon Primarch's heart. A frigging' DAEMON PRIMARCH.

And? So what. A single Grey Knight captain took on a defeated Angron in the first war for Armageddon.

Grey Knights are like kryptonite for Daemons.

Way I figure it, it wasn't a case of Draigo and Geronitan going for a walk in the park, and running into Mortarion and his Deathshroud. There was obviously some kind of major battle going on, and no doubt many other Grey Knights involved. Maybe Draigo dealt the killing blow, but Mortarion was no doubt already weakened by his duel with Supreme Grandmaster Geronitan, and whatever else had happened during the battle up to that point.

I hate the reason given for it.

"We need to strengthen our Aegis"

"Ok, we'll drop a dreadnought down"

"Nah, we'll just slaughter all these incredibly faithful sisters"

It's not even the Mortarion bit I hate. It's that he's burned down Nurgle's entire garden of decay and destroyed Tzeentch's Eternal City SEVERAL TIMES OVER.

The gods are just letting him run around in their backyards and are doing nothing to stop him? There's supposed to be some kind of curse keeping him in the warp for eternity, and that's supposed to be tragic, but I'd only see it that way if his efforts were futile and useless, like he was trapped in an illusory bubble where he THOUGHT he was killing greater daemons but was in fact just trapped in his own head.

There's a story of some ork warband that much better fits the idea that "hey this guy's a badass" while also staying tragic. A warboss, looking for better and better fights, accidentally lands on a khorne daemonworld. At first nothing happens, then a bunch of khorne daemons rise up and kill every ork. So much blood was shed, though, that every day at sunrise Khorne resurrects the entire warband to spend the day fighting and killing. They all die again every day, and are resurrected every day to fight again.

Basically, they're never going anywhere. It will never again be a system-looting Waaaagh, he will never rise to power over a massive ork warband beyond what he landed with. He is doing the same fight for eternity and that's tragic, but the reason it's happening is because he's THAT cool.

Draigo, on the other hand, comes out, kills whatever he wants, goes back to the warp and kills whatever he wants, and back and forth. He never gets tired, never needs to eat or drink or sleep, never needs his armor maintained or his wounds tended to. In the story, at least, he's completely and totally invincible. The implication is not only that he bests all his opponents, it's that he's not even HURT by them, EVER, and the gods are powerless to stop him. That's not a tragic ending by any means. That's why the character is seen as flawless, and that's one of several reasons why he's hated.

I don't hate Matt Ward. He makes things to be fun for the people that use them. I do hate the grey knight codex. It's broken and over the top and they don't pay for most of their abilities. Compare a strike to a noisemarine with a sonic blaster, or hell compare it to a regular marine. 5 points buys them a stormbolter upgrade on the standard bolter, anti-psychic grenades, anti-psychic leadership nerfing, a bonus +1 on deny the witch rolls, an anti-deepstrike psychic power, a FORCE WEAPON, preferred enemy: daemons [which covers far more than what's in the daemon codex], and a +1 strength in hth psychic power. That's all what, 1 point each, with a few still being free after that?

The old grey knights basically said "Hey, rather than pay a bunch of extra points for these things that are only useful against certain enemies, we lowered the points and will allow daemons to have endless troops against them". The new ones pay even LESS and daemonic units have no recourse against them. How have they maintained balance?

Simply put: They haven't. The codex inherently solves its own "low model count" problem by introducing Coteaz and allowing 12 point troop choices that can take space marine vehicles to cart them around and by having upgrades cost so little that a full squad of grey knights with little spent on upgrades is way way WAY above the same units in other codexes that pay a ton extra. A tactical squad that buys the heavy and assault weapons and the close combat weapon for their sergeant necessary to compete will come out at about the same points cost as 10 strikes with 2 psycannons and still be out-shot, and completely out-classed in hth as well.

THAT is imbalance.

Kaldor wrote:

Backfire wrote:Draigo is just WAY over the top. First thing he did was to carve his predecessors name to Daemon Primarch's heart. A frigging' DAEMON PRIMARCH.

And? So what. A single Grey Knight captain took on a defeated Angron in the first war for Armageddon.

Hrm, not quite accurate Lets not forget it took 100 Grey Knight Terminators to confront him, and the Captain died as well. No such force is mentioned in Draigo's entry.

Way I figure it, it wasn't a case of Draigo and Geronitan going for a walk in the park, and running into Mortarion and his Deathshroud. There was obviously some kind of major battle going on, and no doubt many other Grey Knights involved. Maybe Draigo dealt the killing blow, but Mortarion was no doubt already weakened by his duel with Supreme Grandmaster Geronitan, and whatever else had happened during the battle up to that point.

We have no way of knowing, but it's pure conjecture. The story however gives no indication that this is the case, or that it was even at the same battle. It simply says " X died, then Draigo went off and did this ridiculous thing". There was plenty of room to elaborate on that if desired, Draigo got twice as much page space as Dante, Mephiston, Calgar, Ragnar, Abaddon, Typhus, or Logan Grimnar did.

^What Vaktathi said. At least with Calgar defeating the Avatar, it was already estabilished that Avatar had to fight TH/SS Terminators immediately beforehand, Calgar surprised the Avatar and even then, he was nearly killed by it.

You gotta have scary villains to have heroes. Sauron is a great villain, and did you see Aragon ride up in the Barad-Dur and beat him up? No, you didn't. (Ok, Elendil did that...but he had friends). When Ward writes, villains are just fodder to the good guys.

Please don't post things like this on Dakka.
Reds8n

Kaldor, I just want to... confirm something.

You aren't trying to pull off an Inception right? like your dakka account is the Mary Sue character created by Kaldor Draigo in the codex which is the Mary Sue created from Matt Ward?

Hrm, not quite accurate Lets not forget it took 100 Grey Knight Terminators to confront him, and the Captain died as well. No such force is mentioned in Draigo's entry.

So the Daemon Primarch suddenly met the previous grey knight supreme grandmaster off somewhere alone, except draigo was there, and some daemons too..

Yeah, it says there was an army for the daemons there. Logical thinking is there was a Gk army there too.

"There was an army of Grey Knights fighting an army of Daemons" isn't the same thing as several dozen GK's simultaneously fighting Angron at the same time, with almost every single one of them dying except for like ten of them.