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 Grey Templar wrote:
Necrons
Imperial Guard
Grey Knights
Orks
Tau Empire
Space Marines
Black Templars
Dark Eldar
Blood Angels
Eldar
Chaos Space Marines
Tyranids
Chaos Daemons
Sisters of Battle
Dark Angels


Listed by group, so same color are roughly same power level.

Yeah, this list makes sense. But I would rate Eldar lower and Chaos Daemons higher.

 wuestenfux wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Necrons
Imperial Guard
Grey Knights
Orks
Tau Empire
Space Marines
Black Templars
Dark Eldar
Blood Angels
Eldar
Chaos Space Marines
Tyranids
Chaos Daemons
Sisters of Battle
Dark Angels


Listed by group, so same color are roughly same power level.

Yeah, this list makes sense. But I would rate Eldar lower and Chaos Daemons higher.

Can't agree with Templars being that high though; it's the only army in the game where the enemy gets to move your stuff. Righteous Zeal makes ADLs, Bastions and upper floors of ruins much less useful, which sucks when the best units in the book are shooting based.

 wuestenfux wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Necrons
Imperial Guard
Grey Knights
Orks
Tau Empire
Space Marines
Black Templars
Dark Eldar
Blood Angels
Eldar
Chaos Space Marines
Tyranids
Chaos Daemons
Sisters of Battle
Dark Angels


Listed by group, so same color are roughly same power level.

Yeah, this list makes sense. But I would rate Eldar lower and Chaos Daemons higher.

Daemons should be solidly mid-tier.

Yes we have 1 gimmicky list that can rape the unprepared in Flamer/Screamer spam, but almost everyone can easily defend against it by allying in a 10-man Strike and/or Interceptor squad if they really want to.

Warp Quake alone keeps Daemons from being a tier 1 army, as does intelligent deployment which can really limit the alpha-strike damage of Flamer/Screamer spam.
Plus, Daemons have limited answers to enemy fliers and make far worse use of fortifications unless you take allies.

If Deamons didn't have to deep-strike EVERYTHING (thus meaning a bad first turn could screw over your entire army) and Warp Quake didn't exist then Deamons would absolutely be in the upper tier chilling with Necrons, Imperial Guard, and Grey Knights. An example of this is in Fantasy. In WHFB, Deamons are easily one of the best armies in the game (so much so, they had to re-write the rulebook because Deamons broke 8th edition. Dammit Ward.). Since 40k and Fantasy Deamons are basically identical (they can be interchanged between the games just by simply exchanging bases), this shows they could have promise in 40k. But the 40k codex is old, and not written by Ward, and thus has faults like Warp Quake (which, to be honest, makes sense because the Grey Knights sole purpose in life is to kill Deamons so it makes sense they can do that)

Black Templars have potential, but they are just so so old that they have so many obsolete rules.

 washout77 wrote:
If Deamons didn't have to deep-strike EVERYTHING (thus meaning a bad first turn could screw over your entire army) and Warp Quake didn't exist then Deamons would absolutely be in the upper tier chilling with Necrons, Imperial Guard, and Grey Knights. An example of this is in Fantasy. In WHFB, Deamons are easily one of the best armies in the game (so much so, they had to re-write the rulebook because Deamons broke 8th edition. Dammit Ward.). Since 40k and Fantasy Deamons are basically identical (they can be interchanged between the games just by simply exchanging bases), this shows they could have promise in 40k. But the 40k codex is old, and not written by Ward, and thus has faults like Warp Quake (which, to be honest, makes sense because the Grey Knights sole purpose in life is to kill Deamons so it makes sense they can do that)

Black Templars have potential, but they are just so so old that they have so many obsolete rules.

Deep Strike isn't the problem. Anyone who thinks Daemons are low tier because of Deep Strike doesn't know what they're talking about...
Without Deep Strike, Daemons would suck monkeyballs as we've got no transports and almost no armour saves on an almost purely infantry army. Being able to Deep Strike is what gives Daemons the tactical edge over opponents, since we get to pick and choose where the battle takes place.

And Daemons broke 7th edition because their rules were simply OP.

Warp Quake is stupidly OP at 12". It could be a 6" radius like the almost identicle Necron ability and it would still do it's job just as effectively.
Yes Grey Knights are Daemonhunters and thus they should be better at combating us than regular Imperial armies. They don't deserve half the OTT crap they do have, like 'Derp Quake' which can auto-win games or Dark Ex which makes Daemon Princes forget which bloody God spawned them!

Experiment 626 wrote:

 washout77 wrote:
If Deamons didn't have to deep-strike EVERYTHING (thus meaning a bad first turn could screw over your entire army) and Warp Quake didn't exist then Deamons would absolutely be in the upper tier chilling with Necrons, Imperial Guard, and Grey Knights. An example of this is in Fantasy. In WHFB, Deamons are easily one of the best armies in the game (so much so, they had to re-write the rulebook because Deamons broke 8th edition. Dammit Ward.). Since 40k and Fantasy Deamons are basically identical (they can be interchanged between the games just by simply exchanging bases), this shows they could have promise in 40k. But the 40k codex is old, and not written by Ward, and thus has faults like Warp Quake (which, to be honest, makes sense because the Grey Knights sole purpose in life is to kill Deamons so it makes sense they can do that)

Black Templars have potential, but they are just so so old that they have so many obsolete rules.

Deep Strike isn't the problem. Anyone who thinks Daemons are low tier because of Deep Strike doesn't know what they're talking about...
Without Deep Strike, Daemons would suck monkeyballs as we've got no transports and almost no armour saves on an almost purely infantry army. Being able to Deep Strike is what gives Daemons the tactical edge over opponents, since we get to pick and choose where the battle takes place.

And Daemons broke 7th edition because their rules were simply OP.

Warp Quake is stupidly OP at 12". It could be a 6" radius like the almost identicle Necron ability and it would still do it's job just as effectively.
Yes Grey Knights are Daemonhunters and thus they should be better at combating us than regular Imperial armies. They don't deserve half the OTT crap they do have, like 'Derp Quake' which can auto-win games or Dark Ex which makes Daemon Princes forget which bloody God spawned them!

7th edition was it! Sorry, I get my Fantasy editions screwed up sometimes...

And I didn't mean Deep Strike is true problem, it's just the way it works right now. Thanks to Warp Quake, and the fact you need to start with nothing on the board, I have seen Deamon players lose by default after the first turn. In the last tourny near me, we had 3 Daemons players. One had an allied Chaos army. The two without lost because of failing at scatter rolls and one because of Warp Quake, honestly some really stupid reasons (both lost basically first turn), the one with the Chaos ended up getting in the top 4 because he couldn't be tabled first turn (and giving him time to get the Daemons into play).

And I honestly don't see why people rate GK as highly anymore. 5th Edition they were REALLY OP to be honest, but now they aren't that kind of powerhouse they were anymore thanks to people learning to beat them. Sure, they do have some pretty OTT rules and things but they aren't as strong as they once were. And I play Grey Knights too hahaha

Experiment 626 wrote:

 washout77 wrote:
If Deamons didn't have to deep-strike EVERYTHING (thus meaning a bad first turn could screw over your entire army) and Warp Quake didn't exist then Deamons would absolutely be in the upper tier chilling with Necrons, Imperial Guard, and Grey Knights. An example of this is in Fantasy. In WHFB, Deamons are easily one of the best armies in the game (so much so, they had to re-write the rulebook because Deamons broke 8th edition. Dammit Ward.). Since 40k and Fantasy Deamons are basically identical (they can be interchanged between the games just by simply exchanging bases), this shows they could have promise in 40k. But the 40k codex is old, and not written by Ward, and thus has faults like Warp Quake (which, to be honest, makes sense because the Grey Knights sole purpose in life is to kill Deamons so it makes sense they can do that)

Black Templars have potential, but they are just so so old that they have so many obsolete rules.

Deep Strike isn't the problem. Anyone who thinks Daemons are low tier because of Deep Strike doesn't know what they're talking about...
Without Deep Strike, Daemons would suck monkeyballs as we've got no transports and almost no armour saves on an almost purely infantry army. Being able to Deep Strike is what gives Daemons the tactical edge over opponents, since we get to pick and choose where the battle takes place.

And Daemons broke 7th edition because their rules were simply OP.

Warp Quake is stupidly OP at 12". It could be a 6" radius like the almost identicle Necron ability and it would still do it's job just as effectively.
Yes Grey Knights are Daemonhunters and thus they should be better at combating us than regular Imperial armies. They don't deserve half the OTT crap they do have, like 'Derp Quake' which can auto-win games or Dark Ex which makes Daemon Princes forget which bloody God spawned them!

Really, the answer then is to eliminate both Grey Knights and Chaos Daemons from the game as they were factions that needed to remain more as background material than armies on the tabletop.

I disagree that Sisters are so far down the list. I'd place them firmly mid table.

 Still Standing wrote:
I disagree that Sisters are so far down the list. I'd place them firmly mid table.

I'd tend to agree here. Although the sample size is small, my only experience with Sisters is watching someone go 5-0 with them at a GT at the local Battle Bunker.

We feth You Up Tier

Croissont Necrons
Screamer/Flamer Spam Daemons
Imperial Guard Flyer Spam

Top Tier - Codex as whole
Necrons
Grey Knights
Imperial Guard
Space Wolves
Blood Angels

Please Sir, don't hurt me tier

Eldar
Tau
Tyranids

Tyrands have to rely on a very small number of tactics to survive, but actually do relatively well in Apoc, Tau have kickass skimmers, but again, they're stuck to one really viable tactic, and Eldar without Forgeworld are just garbage. FW makes them able to survive, but again, limited choices.

I'd say Daemons outside of spamming WD update units are a middle power, but screamers are just slowed, and flamers are very, very good. Only thing they can't obliterate is very tailored builds or Grey Knights.

Everything not mentioned falls somewhere in between, there's a lot of obsolete or redundant codexes though; Black Templars are basically useless, Vanilla Marines are not really worthwhile from a power standpoint when Marine +1 codexes exist like SW and BA, and the DA shouldn't have their own codex; they're no more divergent than Salamanders or Imperial Fists or Raven Guard, and should just be optional special army rules inside of the normal codex. We don't need more MEQ codexes.

Sisters, however, are not useless. The "codex" they have isn't very good, but there's enough effective units and army powers to keep them relevant. If GW actually took them seriously, perhaps revamped their ancient and largely bad-looking models, and produced a more internally balanced codex they'd have some decent promise.

 MajorStoffer wrote:

...I'd say Daemons outside of spamming WD update units are a middle power, but screamers are just slowed, and flamers are very, very good. Only thing they can't obliterate is very tailored builds or Grey Knights.

You'd be wrong then...

every single army has easy access to solid counters for Flamer/Screamer spam;
- Intelligent deployment to limit the 1st wave damage is a biggie.

- MSU spam

- Transport/vehicle spam

- Hordes of any flavour

- Grey Knights

- Anyone who can take GK allies and thus also us Warp Quake


Flamer/Screamer spam excells at one thing; killing elite armies like tooled up MEQ's/TEQ's. And since the early 6th ed meta shift has been away from those vehicles that give Daemons the most headachs and into 2+ saves & plasma spam, well, we've been having a field day!

But seriously, you want to beat Flamer/Screamer spam? Bring a few transports to hide in and pack some flamers/template weapons of your own. Massed smalls arms fire & hordes especially laugh at this list.

 undertow wrote:

 Still Standing wrote:
I disagree that Sisters are so far down the list. I'd place them firmly mid table.

I'd tend to agree here. Although the sample size is small, my only experience with Sisters is watching someone go 5-0 with them at a GT at the local Battle Bunker.

Most people rate them so low IMHO due to (for lack of a better word) ignorance. If a codex is powerful, it tends to have a larger player base, and fewer players with a weaker codex. SoB have probably the smallest player base, and therefore people assume small number of players = weak codex. This along with the codex being difficult at best to get, means most players unfairly rate them at the bottom of the food chain without ever even learning their strengths/weaknesses.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

phoenixrisin wrote:
anyone who says different is just simply not playing games against competitive lists.

And again with the silly arguments. Do you have anything backing this up or is this just true because you say so and we should take your word for it? Stop being a bully and start arguing with sound argumentative techniques or this isn't going to go anywhere.

if you scroll up, you'll see multiple examples of why BA aren't as strong as vanilla marines and even more examples of nerfs that i provided.