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 H.B.M.C. wrote:
But surely you either change its cost to reflect its abilities, or change its abilities to reflect its cost. They appear to have upped its cost because of how dangerous it is... and then made it less dangerous as well.

No, they reduced its abilities and reduced its cost appropriately.

Its just now they just built the base cost of the Vet squad that comes with it into the price of the unit.

Before, you were paying 120 points minimum for a bare Vet squad and the drill (50 alone for the drill). Now you're paying 100 total for the bare vet squad and the drill, meaning the drill was reduced to 30 points, which accurately reflects its abilities, for sure.

Or maybe the Vet squad was dropped 10 to make up for being non-scoring and the drill was dropped 10 points. Either way, the points haven't been raised, they've been lowered. Its just he usefulness of the unit overall that has been diminished which is making people unhappy because they liked it being super-powerful, which was never appropriate anyway for an automated breeching drill.

Ah the memories of the breaching drill. Our first encounter was Adepticon 2010, where it bursts from the ground and took out Reece's Vendetta, Live Free or Die Hard style!

My own drill nommed a Hellbrute and 2 Chaos bikers and did 1 hull point worth of damage on a Land Raider, the real damage was done with the 2 6 men squads of Engineers that followed up (5 Chosens and a Lord, 4 cultists, a defiler, said landraider and some Zerkers that were inside).

Hi there,
December is streaming away from us and it’s now only fifteen days until Christmas. At this time of year we like to bring you a sneak peek at one of next year’s releases, and part one of our Christmas Jigsaw is revealed today. We are very close to our next festive ordering deadline, but don’t worry if you still have an order to place because the Customer Service team are on hand to assist you – read on for more!

Forge World Christmas Ordering Deadlines
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It’s always best to place your order as early as you can to avoid disappointment, and with this in mind below are our last order deadlines for pre-Christmas delivery. As always, these dates are subject to change and stock availability so if in doubt, call us:

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Forge World Christmas Jigsaw Part 1
As is traditional at this time of year we like to tease you with a sneak preview of one of our 2013 releases. Rather than simply showing you a cool model straight away though, we prefer to leave you guessing for a while at what it might be. Part 1 is revealed below, but what is it?



Part 2 will be revealed later this week...



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Obviously a Terminator, but which pattern? Is it a new pattern or a character? New poses? Legion Terminator? Lots of possibilities imo.

Generic terminator or named guy, I wonder?

Wasn't the 2010 advent calendar the Event-Only Boarding Marine model and last year's the skin-wolf event only model?

I think they mentioned a Saturnine pattern termie a while back. No idea what that entails though!

It matches with a tartaros pattern leg if you compare the two. (got the same little flap thing just above the foot)

Looks like the Tartaros pattern legs to me, with added bling

yakface wrote: Its just he usefulness of the unit overall that has been diminished which is making people unhappy because they liked it being super-powerful, which was never appropriate anyway for an automated breeching drill.

I don't have the book yet (it's been shipped but not yet arrived) so I don't know how it's changed for taking it in a normal list or a DKoK unit outside of Armored Battlegroups, but again the big thing is the mishap issue for the follow up units. This makes it's usefulness as an attack vector almost nil because if it fails to kill its target (which it usually will) you lose two units, and it's cost as a Deep Strike enabler for guardsmen is a bit much. Nerfing the blast is all well and fine, I'm not going to be heartbroken over that, but the one change about the mishap and follow up unit makes it difficult to use functionally at all.

Vaktathi raises a valid point in regard to deep striking, short of allies, the drill is the only way for the Death Korps to have any infiltrate/outflank/deep striking units.

Terminator Tech Marine?

 Ozymandias wrote:
Ah the memories of the breaching drill. Our first encounter was Adepticon 2010, where it bursts from the ground and took out Reece's Vendetta, Live Free or Die Hard style!

That... makes no sense!!!!

 Ozymandias wrote:
Ah the memories of the breaching drill. Our first encounter was Adepticon 2010, where it bursts from the ground and took out Reece's Vendetta, Live Free or Die Hard style!

Actually, it was my Vendetta . That was the team that was only out for Commander's Heads, and they were freaking out when your Refractor Field bounced a manticore rocket twice!

 Vaktathi wrote:

yakface wrote: Its just he usefulness of the unit overall that has been diminished which is making people unhappy because they liked it being super-powerful, which was never appropriate anyway for an automated breeching drill.

I don't have the book yet (it's been shipped but not yet arrived) so I don't know how it's changed for taking it in a normal list or a DKoK unit outside of Armored Battlegroups, but again the big thing is the mishap issue for the follow up units. This makes it's usefulness as an attack vector almost nil because if it fails to kill its target (which it usually will) you lose two units, and it's cost as a Deep Strike enabler for guardsmen is a bit much. Nerfing the blast is all well and fine, I'm not going to be heartbroken over that, but the one change about the mishap and follow up unit makes it difficult to use functionally at all.

Then just don't Deep Strike it under a vehicle or building and problem solved.

That's right! My apologies, I remembered that Reecius and I played IG but you and I also played against an IG team. Yeah, they finally got my poor Commander, but Platuan4th's Primaris Psyker was still alive and kicking on the table next to us.

Good times!

 yakface wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

yakface wrote: Its just he usefulness of the unit overall that has been diminished which is making people unhappy because they liked it being super-powerful, which was never appropriate anyway for an automated breeching drill.

I don't have the book yet (it's been shipped but not yet arrived) so I don't know how it's changed for taking it in a normal list or a DKoK unit outside of Armored Battlegroups, but again the big thing is the mishap issue for the follow up units. This makes it's usefulness as an attack vector almost nil because if it fails to kill its target (which it usually will) you lose two units, and it's cost as a Deep Strike enabler for guardsmen is a bit much. Nerfing the blast is all well and fine, I'm not going to be heartbroken over that, but the one change about the mishap and follow up unit makes it difficult to use functionally at all.

Then just don't Deep Strike it under a vehicle or building and problem solved.

Right, but at that point it's special ability is rather pointless and then the drill just becomes a rather expensive Deep Strike option for vets and Engineers.

I'm not arguing the old one could have used some toning down, but that part moves it too far in the other direction, especially for the original unit it was intended for, DKoK Engineers.

On a personal level, I'd much rather have just seen it removed as an option for Veterans instead, as when coupled with the Engineers (and taken as a total package) it was hard to argue they were particularly bad, Vets with 3x BS4 special weapons made the total package silly.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Right, but at that point it's special ability is rather pointless and then the drill just becomes a rather expensive Deep Strike option for vets and Engineers.

I'm not arguing the old one could have used some toning down, but that part moves it too far in the other direction, especially for the original unit it was intended for, DKoK Engineers.

I have to agree. Why make the basic funtionality of the unit so risky for the unit in question? It'd be like giving a Basilisk a chance to explode every time it fired its main gun.

Plasma basilisk?

You just gave me the silliest of ideas...

 Bobthehero wrote:
Plasma basilisk?

You just gave me the silliest of ideas...

And you just gave me a great idea...

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Right, but at that point it's special ability is rather pointless and then the drill just becomes a rather expensive Deep Strike option for vets and Engineers.

I'm not arguing the old one could have used some toning down, but that part moves it too far in the other direction, especially for the original unit it was intended for, DKoK Engineers.

I have to agree. Why make the basic funtionality of the unit so risky for the unit in question? It'd be like giving a Basilisk a chance to explode every time it fired its main gun.

If it's currently 30 points, as someone has said for the drill itself, doesn't that make it just a drop pod with different functionality?

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Right, but at that point it's special ability is rather pointless and then the drill just becomes a rather expensive Deep Strike option for vets and Engineers.

I'm not arguing the old one could have used some toning down, but that part moves it too far in the other direction, especially for the original unit it was intended for, DKoK Engineers.

I have to agree. Why make the basic funtionality of the unit so risky for the unit in question? It'd be like giving a Basilisk a chance to explode every time it fired its main gun.

If it's currently 30 points, as someone has said for the drill itself, doesn't that make it just a drop pod with different functionality?

It's transporting significantly less capable troops without any of the safety and in fact a greater than even odds of mishap if doing what it was originally intended to do.

EDIT: Just got my book as I walked in the door. Man, they really weren't kind here...you certainly won't be seeing Centaurs or Tauros' on tables any time soon.


Looked at the new Drill rules, a rather incredible overhaul and lots of open questions (particularly in regards to how they apply to the DKoK Engineers...are they elites now too?), it doesn't even have a blast at all anymore functionally, just uses the blast to determine if it hits anything and other than that just does D3 hits to non-vehicle units. It's gone from "very good" to pointless, especially as the infantry unit attached is no longer Scoring.

 Vaktathi wrote:
you certainly won't be seeing Centaurs or Tauros' on tables any time soon.

Really? How could you possibly make the Centaur any weaker than it already was? And why would anyone want to change the Tauros, a unit that was already too weak to see much use?

The Centaur and Tauros are both only 2HP and the Centaur now takes a Fast Attack slot instead of being a transport option for non DKoK armies.

 Vaktathi wrote:
The Centaur and Tauros are both only 2HP and the Centaur now takes a Fast Attack slot instead of being a transport option for non DKoK armies.

Well, 2 HP isn't a change since that's what they got as soon as 6th was released in the pdf update, but taking up a fast attack slot makes no sense. Why would anyone ever take a Centaur then?

 Peregrine wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
The Centaur and Tauros are both only 2HP and the Centaur now takes a Fast Attack slot instead of being a transport option for non DKoK armies.

Well, 2 HP isn't a change since that's what they got as soon as 6th was released in the pdf update, but taking up a fast attack slot makes no sense. Why would anyone ever take a Centaur then?

You wouldn't.

Also just realized the Hades no longer has a gun at all either and can only hurt things by ramming them...with it's 6" move.

That thing swung pretty much completely polar opposite the other side of useful, the more I read the unit entry, the more I think "man, I guess they were just tired of selling these things..."

 Vaktathi wrote:


Also just realized the Hades no longer has a gun at all either and can only hurt things by ramming them...with it's 6" move.

That thing swung pretty much completely polar opposite the other side of useful, the more I read the unit entry, the more I think "man, I guess they were just tired of selling these things..."

The ranged profile is still in the book, they just put them all into a single summary in the back of the book.

 Vaktathi wrote:
That thing swung pretty much completely polar opposite the other side of useful, the more I read the unit entry, the more I think "man, I guess they were just tired of selling these things..."

"Someone ate the master and the mould's about to break! Quick! Give 'em crap rules so people'll stop buying the damned things!"

 yakface wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:


Also just realized the Hades no longer has a gun at all either and can only hurt things by ramming them...with it's 6" move.

That thing swung pretty much completely polar opposite the other side of useful, the more I read the unit entry, the more I think "man, I guess they were just tired of selling these things..."

The ranged profile is still in the book, they just put them all into a single summary in the back of the book.

Ah you're right, good catch, they made no indication in the unit entry itself that it had any sort of ranged profile anymore under the melta-cutter rules.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

"Someone ate the master and the mould's about to break! Quick! Give 'em crap rules so people'll stop buying the damned things!"

Pretty much my thoughts, it's hard to see them as worth taking now, both for the lack of scoring ability for the follow up unit and the *huge* chance of mishap.


Basically they went from a 50pt transport option that:

Automatically arrived turn 2
Came in with S10 AP1 5" blast
Moved all enemy units at least 1" away and destroyed small terrain pieces
Could be bought for DKoK Engineers as Troops or Veterans as Troops
Allowed follow up units to move, shoot, assault on turn they arrived.

It lost all of that (some not unjustifiably) and is now largely an expensive option that allows for a watered down Veteran squad to lose scoring and gain Deep Strike while resulting in no savings for an Engineer unit. They wayyyy overcompensated methinks.


EDIT: looks like they also got rid of the co-axial heavy stubber for Vanquishers, can only take it in the Armored Battlegroup list and only the Storm Bolter gets the Coaxial rule whereas the Stubber is just another gun.

Huzzah! My copy has arrived. I collect it tomorrow (for some strange reason I had it delivered to my parent's place...).