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 megatrons2nd wrote:
If, with the hex rifle, you are removed from play, the model no longer exists and doesn't have FNP as it is no longer in play, and thus has access to no rules.

That way breaks a rule as you must take a FNP roll against the wound.

Again multiple special rules stack, unless they are the same rule. You might not, ultimately, take the wound but all special rules still happen.

The do happen, unless we are treating the wound as saved after a successful FNP roll, then nothing can trigger off of the (now saved) wound.

Doing it your way Instant death can only happen with a select few weapons, as most of those that cause instant death specify that they only cause instant death on an unsaved wound. And as you say you don't know if it is unsaved until you fail FNP. Even the Double Strength requires an unsaved wound to become instant death.

Completely false.

The Str double tough wound causes ID so FNP can not be taken against it. Re-read FNP P. 35.

The wound from a force weapon does not cause ID so you can take a FNP against it.

Kangodo wrote:

BLADERIKER wrote:
The Basis for this step by step order is found on Page 13-15 of the Little Rule Book, as well as pages 22-24 in same rule book.

On page 13: Roll to hit. (Self explanatory) Page 14, Middle left: Roll to wound. (Self explanatory). Page 14, lower right: Wound Pool. ( The total number of wounds caused before saves.)
Page 14, Top Left: Allocating Wounds & Remove Causalities: "To determine how many wounds are caused, you will need to allocate the Wounds caused and resolved any saving throws the target is allowed.) Page 14, top left: Take Saving Throws. "First of all, the target unit gets to make One saving throw, if it has one (See Page 16) for each Wound being resolved. Make note of how many unsaved Wounds have been caused." Page 14, Middle Left: Allocate Unsaved Wounds & Remove Casualties. "Next, allocate an unsaved wound to an enemy model closest to the firing unit, reduce the models Wounds by 1."

Page 24, Top Right: Allocating Wounds. "After determining the number of Wounds Inflicted against a unit at a particular initiative step, Wounds are allocated, saves taken and casualties removed."

This is the order of events right out of the Rule Book for determining what happens at what step. Now to reference this again...

"Feel No Pain: When a model with this special rule suffers an unsaved Wound, it can make a special Feel No Pain roll to avoid being wounded (this is not a saving throw)." Pg 35, Top Right, 6th Ed Little Rule Book).

"Force: If a Psyker inflicts one or more unsaved Wounds with a Force weapon, he can immediately choose to activate it by expending a Warp Charge and taking a Psychic Test (See Page 67), If the test is failed, or the bearer has no Warp Charge points to spend, then there is no additional effect.- If the test is passed, all unsaved wounds Inflicted by the Force weapon that turn have the Instant Death special rule (see page 38". (Pg 37, Top Left, 6th Ed Little Rule Book).

The reason for this confusion is based in the 5th Ed rules for Force and FNP. Which I will now cite.

"Feel No Pain: "If a model with this ability suffers an unsaved Wound, roll a dice. on a 1,2,or 3 take the wound as normal(removing the model if it loses its final Wound). On a 4, 5, or 6, the injury is ignored and the model continues Fighting." (Pg 75, Middle Left, 5th Ed Rule Book).

"Force Weapons: Roll to hit and wound as normal, allowing any invulnerable saving throws the victim might have. The Psyker may take a Psychic test to use the weapon's power against any one opponent that suffered an unsaved wound by the weapon in that player turn.- If the test is passed, the enemy model suffers instant death regardless of its toughness value." (Pg 50, Bottom Right, 5th Ed Little Rule Book).

In 5th Ed, FNP was taken before you could activate a Force Weapon, this was due to the fact that for the force weapon to activate you have to have an unsaved wound, and in 5th Ed you would test FNP to see if there are any unsaved wounds.

In 6th Ed, FNP only works if you suffer an unsaved wound that does not inflict ID. In 6th Ed, as soon as a Saving throw is failed the Psyker can make a Force weapon activation test, before the wound is applied/suffered by the unit, if passed the wounds caused by the force weapon that turn all have the ID Special Rule.

This is pretty much cut and dry.

I have checked everything and you are correct!

The steps are indeed:
Roll to hit.
Roll to wound.
Put wounds in wound-pool, now they are inflicted and people may activate Force.
Then you allocate wounds and make your saves.
Now you can activate FnP!
Last part is where you remove casualties.

So I was right! FnP is indeed taken right after Armour-saves.
It's just that RAW state that you roll for Force before rolls for Armour and stuff, giving it a high potential to waste your Warp Charges.
That is how it's described in: "After determining the number of Wounds Inflicted against a unit at a particular initiative step, Wounds are allocated, saves taken and casualties removed."

The reason for this confusion is based in the 5th Ed rules for Force and FNP.

I hardly think so, I started playing in 6th Ed.

Just for clarity a it seems there are some that are still confused, so I colored the order mixs up.

It goes:

Put Wounds in the wound Pool. (Wounds are inflicted)
Roll saves if any, if failed. (Inflicted Wound are unsaved) Player may activate Force.
Then you allocate wounds to the models (Model suffers a Wound) player may use FNP.

Back in 5th Ed, Force was dependent on whether or not the wound was suffered and not inflicted, and this was why FNP were taken before Force. In 6th Ed FNP is determined by whether or not the Weapon causes ID, which now Force activation happens before the wound is suffered and thus comes before you can take a FNP special roll.

BLADERIKER wrote:
Just for clarity a it seems there are some that are still confused, so I colored the order mixs up.

It goes:

Put Wounds in the wound Pool. (Wounds are inflicted)
Roll saves if any, if failed. (Inflicted Wound are unsaved) Player may activate Force.
Then you allocate wounds to the models (Model suffers a Wound) player may use FNP.

Back in 5th Ed, Force was dependent on whether or not the wound was suffered and not inflicted, and this was why FNP were taken before Force. In 6th Ed FNP is determined by whether or not the Weapon causes ID, which now Force activation happens before the wound is suffered and thus comes before you can take a FNP special roll.

But that's not what your big post said.
Your post literally said that: " Page 24, Top Right: Allocating Wounds. "After determining the number of Wounds Inflicted against a unit at a particular initiative step, Wounds are allocated, saves taken and casualties removed." "
1. Wounds are inflicted/counted.
2. Wounds are allocated.
3. Saves can be taken.
4. Casualties are removed.

Force should be activated immediately on the moment they are inflicted!
The only time that could happen is in step 1, thus before they are allocated and saves are taken.
Unless you are going to contradict that long post.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 megatrons2nd wrote:
If, with the hex rifle, you are removed from play, the model no longer exists and doesn't have FNP as it is no longer in play, and thus has access to no rules.

That way breaks a rule as you must take a FNP roll against the wound.

Again multiple special rules stack, unless they are the same rule. You might not, ultimately, take the wound but all special rules still happen.

The do happen, unless we are treating the wound as saved after a successful FNP roll, then nothing can trigger off of the (now saved) wound.

Doing it your way Instant death can only happen with a select few weapons, as most of those that cause instant death specify that they only cause instant death on an unsaved wound. And as you say you don't know if it is unsaved until you fail FNP. Even the Double Strength requires an unsaved wound to become instant death.

Completely false.

The Str double tough wound causes ID so FNP can not be taken against it. Re-read FNP P. 35.

The wound from a force weapon does not cause ID so you can take a FNP against it.

This is partly correct.

An unactivated Force Weapon does not inflict ID. However, an Activated Force Weapon does cause ID. As I have clearly shown the roll to activate the Force Weapon is made before the wound is suffered by the model. FNP cannot not be taken against a wound that inflicts ID, and FNP is not a save.

Just for clarity, a FNP roll can be made against a wound caused by a Force Weapon that either failed its force activation roll or did not have the necessary Warp Charge to activate. In this case the Force Weapons wounds do not inflict ID and FNP is taken as normal.

I hope that helped.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kangodo wrote:

BLADERIKER wrote:
Just for clarity a it seems there are some that are still confused, so I colored the order mixs up.

It goes:

Put Wounds in the wound Pool. (Wounds are inflicted)
Roll saves if any, if failed. (Inflicted Wound are unsaved) Player may activate Force.
Then you allocate wounds to the models (Model suffers a Wound) player may use FNP.

Back in 5th Ed, Force was dependent on whether or not the wound was suffered and not inflicted, and this was why FNP were taken before Force. In 6th Ed FNP is determined by whether or not the Weapon causes ID, which now Force activation happens before the wound is suffered and thus comes before you can take a FNP special roll.

But that's not what your big post said.
Your post literally said that: " Page 24, Top Right: Allocating Wounds. "After determining the number of Wounds Inflicted against a unit at a particular initiative step, Wounds are allocated, saves taken and casualties removed." "
1. Wounds are inflicted/counted.
2. Wounds are allocated.
3. Saves can be taken.
4. Casualties are removed.

Force should be activated immediately on the moment they are inflicted!
The only time that could happen is in step 1, thus before they are allocated and saves are taken.
Unless you are going to contradict that long post.

I see what your saying, and I thank you for pointing it out.

because the wound is unsaved when it is inflicted, and saving throws are needed to save it, the Pyschic test is then taken after you roll to wound and not after you roll to save.

Again Thank you for pointing that out.

BLADERIKER wrote:
I see what your saying, and I thank you for pointing it out.

because the wound is unsaved when it is inflicted, and saving throws are needed to save it, the Pyschic test is then taken after you roll to wound and not after you roll to save.

Again Thank you for pointing that out.

No problem
And yes, I think it's lame to do that.
GW should really do something about all of this.

BLADERIKER wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
The wound from a force weapon does not cause ID so you can take a FNP against it.

This is partly correct.

An unactivated Force Weapon does not inflict ID. However, an Activated Force Weapon does cause ID. FNP cannot not be taken against a wound that inflicts ID, and FNP is not a save.

Just for clarity, a FNP roll can be made against a wound caused by a Force Weapon that either failed its force activation roll or did not have the necessary Warp Charge to activate. In this case the Force Weapons wounds do not inflict ID and FNP is taken as normal.

I hope that helped.

Actually Force weapons only ID if they are activated, which, at the time of the unsaved wound, they are not activated.

FNP is not a save, but we must treat the wound as saved if FNP is successful.

BLADERIKER wrote:
As I have clearly shown the roll to activate the Force Weapon is made before the wound is suffered by the model.

This is completely false.

The wound is suffered after a failed armor save, and Force is used after a failed armor save as well.

We play it as no feel no pain, wound caused, test passed so that wound caused is an instant death wound (immediately = at the same time as the wound is caused) so therefore no feel no pain as the wound came from an instant death weapon.

Actually this discussion is pointless.
The Force rule states wounds get the ID rule. The ID rule states wounds caused by a weapon with this cause instant death.
Because the wound isn't a weapon, having ID has no effect.
Therefore force weapons are useless.

 psyklone wrote:
Actually this discussion is pointless.
The Force rule states wounds get the ID rule. The ID rule states wounds caused by a weapon with this cause instant death.
Because the wound isn't a weapon, having ID has no effect.
Therefore force weapons are useless.

And the wound is caused by an attack from the weapon.

I want to direct you to the discussion of Kharn the Betrayer.
Someone was arguing that the attacks deal ID, not the weapon, so he's not immune against it!
You'll enjoy yourself there.

rigeld2 wrote:
And you said in 5th FNP would come first. Why are you applying Force first in 6th when the triggers have not changed whatsoever?

FNP in 5th edition would never trigger because of wounds inflicted by force weapons. Power weapons could bypass FNP back then, so this is the 1st time this issue has come up.

copper.talos wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
And you said in 5th FNP would come first. Why are you applying Force first in 6th when the triggers have not changed whatsoever?

FNP in 5th edition would never trigger because of wounds inflicted by force weapons. Power weapons could bypass FNP back then, so this is the 1st time this issue has come up.

That's true. That's not what his posts said. Reading in context is cool.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 megatrons2nd wrote:
If, with the hex rifle, you are removed from play, the model no longer exists and doesn't have FNP as it is no longer in play, and thus has access to no rules.

That way breaks a rule as you must take a FNP roll against the wound.

Again multiple special rules stack, unless they are the same rule. You might not, ultimately, take the wound but all special rules still happen.

The do happen, unless we are treating the wound as saved after a successful FNP roll, then nothing can trigger off of the (now saved) wound.

Doing it your way Instant death can only happen with a select few weapons, as most of those that cause instant death specify that they only cause instant death on an unsaved wound. And as you say you don't know if it is unsaved until you fail FNP. Even the Double Strength requires an unsaved wound to become instant death.

Completely false.

The Str double tough wound causes ID so FNP can not be taken against it. Re-read FNP P. 35.

The wound from a force weapon does not cause ID so you can take a FNP against it.

Now you are applying the order the other way. Which way is it? Do you use the trigger before or after you make a FnP roll? If first than Instant death can never beat FnP because most weapons/special rules require an unsaved wound, and as you repeatedly state the wound is not unsaved until you make your FnP roll. Go ahead and reread the instant death rule for double strength weapons. It is unsaved wounds, not just causes instant death. I've read it dozens of times. Now go read the special rules bit where it tells you that multiple special rules affect the same model. Followed by the rule that allows the active player to chose the order in which special rules are applied. Your way breaks the game at least three times.

The trigger is unsaved wound, in all cases. The active player chooses the order, in all cases. You can not place an end result before the trigger, that breaks the game. Applying the fewest broken rules leaves it this way.

 DeathReaper wrote:

BLADERIKER wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
The wound from a force weapon does not cause ID so you can take a FNP against it.

This is partly correct.

An unactivated Force Weapon does not inflict ID. However, an Activated Force Weapon does cause ID. FNP cannot not be taken against a wound that inflicts ID, and FNP is not a save.

Just for clarity, a FNP roll can be made against a wound caused by a Force Weapon that either failed its force activation roll or did not have the necessary Warp Charge to activate. In this case the Force Weapons wounds do not inflict ID and FNP is taken as normal.

I hope that helped.

Actually Force weapons only ID if they are activated, which, at the time of the unsaved wound, they are not activated.

FNP is not a save, but we must treat the wound as saved if FNP is successful.

BLADERIKER wrote:
As I have clearly shown the roll to activate the Force Weapon is made before the wound is suffered by the model.

This is completely false.

The wound is suffered after a failed armor save, and Force is used after a failed armor save as well.

The is an order to how everything is done. Very Simple Logic.

This is the wounding process as I have shown above and backed up with evidence from the BRB.

Step 1: Roll to hit. If you fail to hit the process of wounding is stopped at this step as no Hits were inflicted.

Step 2: Roll to Wound. This step is dependent on step 1. Take the number of times you hit and roll to Wound (testing Strength of the weapon verse the majority toughness/Armor Value(In the case of a Vehicle) of the target unit/Model. If you fail to cause Wound, Glance, or Pen then the Wounding process stops here. However, if a wound is caused at this step it is added to what is called a "Wound Pool" (Pg 14, Lower Right , Little Rule Book). The Wound Pool, is all the wounds that may be caused to a unit. Another way to describe this is as total wounds Inflicted before saves are taken, Or Inflicted Unsaved Wounds as they are wounds but have not or cannot be saved at this point. (Depending on the AP value of the Weapon.). "If there are Wounds with different Strengths, AP values or a special rules, keep them Separated into groups of Wounds in the pool." (Pg 14, Lower Right, Little Rule Book).

Step 3: Is dependent on Step 2. Take Saving Throws. It is at this point that a model is allowed to make one saving throw against one wound if a saving throw is possible. (See Page 16, Little Rule Book). If the save, or saves are passed the Wounding Process stops here. If they are failed then we finish the saving step and move onto the Allocating Wounds step.

Step 4: Is Dependent on Step 3. Allocating Wounds. it is at this point that wounds are Allocated to the models starting with those in base contact, or in the case of a shooting attack those closest to the shooting unit. This is Also when a Unit Suffers an unsaved wound.

Basic logic stand at this.
If you failed to hit then you did not a inflict a hit.
You cannot Wound if you failed to Hit.
If you failed to Wound then you did not Inflict a Wound.
If you Inflict a Wound you need a Saving Throw.
Why is a saving throw needed?
A saving throw is needed because you have an Inflicted Unsaved Wound.
If a saving throw cannot be taken then the Inflicted Unsaved Wound is Suffered, and becomes a Suffered Unsaved Wound.
If a saving throw can be taken then it can be failed.
If a saving throw is failed then the Inflicted Unsaved Wound is Suffered, and becomes a Suffered Unsaved Wound.
If a Saving throw is Passed then the Inflicted Unsaved Wound is Saved.
A suffered Wound will reduce the Wound Characteristic by 1.

So when is a Wound Suffered? Again Simple Logic.

A wound is suffered when the wound is applied to the model.

When is a Wound Inflicted?

After the "to Wound roll is passed"

Is a Inflicted Wound unsaved when the "to Wound roll is passed"?

Yes. As you have not yet rolled to see if the Wound is saved.

When do you roll to see if the Wound is saved?

You may make a Saving Throw to save (if you can) after all wounds have been inflicted.

Can you make a Saving throw before a wound is inflicted?

No. As you can only take a saving throw against an Inflicted wound.

So given this logic, and the exact wording of both Force and FNP from the BRB. Force rolls happens Immediately after Rolls to wound, and FNP rolls happen after Wounds are applied to the model.

In 5th Ed as I have stated in a prior post. Force activation was dependent on a Suffered Wound. FNP would allow the player to ignore a Suffered Wound as though it was saved. So in 5th Ed Force Activation Could not happen until there was an Unsaved Suffered Wound.

In 6th Ed as I stated in a prior post. A Force Weapon is now activated on a Inflicted Unsaved Wound and not on a Suffered Unsaved Wound. This means that Force Rule in 6th Ed is only dependent on whether not a wound is inflicted and not on if a wound is suffered. This will also mean that a FNP roll will depend on whether or not the Psychic test is passed to activate a Force weapon.

How are you inflicting wounds that haven't been allocated?
Surely you can define inflicted using the BRB since that's what would be required for your stance.

rigeld2 wrote:
How are you inflicting wounds that haven't been allocated?
Surely you can define inflicted using the BRB since that's what would be required for your stance.

Can you allocate something that did not happen? No you can not.

For example.

1: If I fail to wound, I have failed to inflict a wound and thus can not allocate something that does not exist.

I see that I must break this down further.

2: Before I roll to hit I must select a target unit that I can legally engage in either Shooting or Assault, to Attempt to Inflict hits. As stated in my prior post if I fail to hit, I fail to inflict hits on the target unit, ergo I fail to allocate hits to the target unit. Should I inflict Hits on the target unit I can then roll to wound and Inflict wounds on the target unit, Thus allocating all the successful inflicted wounds to the target unit(Which are at this point unsaved). Then the target Unit makes saving throws against the allocated inflicted wounds(possibly saving some). After making saving throws any renaming Inflicted Unsaved Wounds are suffered and become suffered unsaved wounds.

This is Pages 12-16 and 21-26 on the Little Rule Book. Cut and dry.

Besides using the word "inflict" over and over do you have any basis for saying that it happens prior to allocation?
Edit: oh, and trying to highlight using light blue just makes it essentially invisible on a white background... Which is how I read the forums because the default colors are horrible.

rigeld2 wrote:
Besides using the word "inflict" over and over do you have any basis for saying that it happens prior to allocation?
Edit: oh, and trying to highlight using light blue just makes it essentially invisible on a white background... Which is how I read the forums because the default colors are horrible.

I didn't even know you could change the background. How do you do it?

BLADERIKER wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

BLADERIKER wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
The wound from a force weapon does not cause ID so you can take a FNP against it.

This is partly correct.

An unactivated Force Weapon does not inflict ID. However, an Activated Force Weapon does cause ID. FNP cannot not be taken against a wound that inflicts ID, and FNP is not a save.

Just for clarity, a FNP roll can be made against a wound caused by a Force Weapon that either failed its force activation roll or did not have the necessary Warp Charge to activate. In this case the Force Weapons wounds do not inflict ID and FNP is taken as normal.

I hope that helped.

Actually Force weapons only ID if they are activated, which, at the time of the unsaved wound, they are not activated.

FNP is not a save, but we must treat the wound as saved if FNP is successful.

BLADERIKER wrote:
As I have clearly shown the roll to activate the Force Weapon is made before the wound is suffered by the model.

This is completely false.

The wound is suffered after a failed armor save, and Force is used after a failed armor save as well.

Basic logic stand at this.
If you failed to hit then you did not a inflict a hit.
You cannot Wound if you failed to Hit.
If you failed to Wound then you did not Inflict a Wound.
If you Inflict a Wound you need a Saving Throw.
Why is a saving throw needed?
A saving throw is needed because you have an Inflicted *Removed* Wound.
If a saving throw cannot be taken then the Inflicted Unsaved Wound is Suffered, and becomes a Suffered Unsaved Wound.
If a saving throw can be taken then it can be failed.
If a saving throw is failed then the Inflicted *Removed* Wound is Suffered, and becomes a Suffered Unsaved Wound.
If a Saving throw is Passed then the Inflicted *Removed* Wound is Saved.
A suffered Wound will reduce the Wound Characteristic by 1.

So when is a Wound Suffered? Again Simple Logic.

A wound is suffered when the wound is applied to the model.

When is a Wound Inflicted?

After the "to Wound roll is passed"

Is a Inflicted Wound unsaved when the "to Wound roll is passed"?

Yes. As you have not yet rolled to see if the Wound is saved.

When do you roll to see if the Wound is saved?

You may make a Saving Throw to save (if you can) after all wounds have been inflicted.

Can you make a Saving throw before a wound is inflicted?

No. As you can only take a saving throw against an Inflicted wound.

So given this logic, and the exact wording of both Force and FNP from the BRB. Force rolls happens Immediately after Rolls to wound, and FNP rolls happen after Wounds are applied to the model.

In 5th Ed as I have stated in a prior post. Force activation was dependent on a Suffered Wound. FNP would allow the player to ignore a Suffered *Unsaved* Wound as though it was saved. So in 5th Ed Force Activation Could not happen until there was an Suffered Unsaved Wound.

In 6th Ed as I stated in a prior post. A Force Weapon is now activated on a Inflicted Unsaved Wound and not on a Suffered *Removed* Wound. This means that Force Rule in 6th Ed is only dependent on whether not a wound is inflicted and not on if a wound is suffered. This will also mean that a FNP roll will depend on whether or not the Psychic test is passed to activate a Force weapon.

You cant say a wound is unsaved if a saving throw hasn't been taken yet. If the saving throw fails, or none is possible, then it becomes unsaved, just some clarification.

Also, to the OP, i think of this as, "oh i failed to save against a force weapon, oh wait, i have feel no pain, i can take this throw before it is activated, 'cause it needs an unsaved wound." The force special rule doesn't immediately confer instant death, a 6 has to be rolled first, and im sure that FnP fall imbetween that because the wound is then treated after FnP is if it was saved. If there is no wound for the Psychic test, then there is no instant death then.

rigeld2 wrote:
Besides using the word "inflict" over and over do you have any basis for saying that it happens prior to allocation?
Edit: oh, and trying to highlight using light blue just makes it essentially invisible on a white background... Which is how I read the forums because the default colors are horrible.

See page 37. Little Rule Book.

"Force: If a Psyker Inflicts one or more unsaved Wounds with a Force weapon, he can immediately choose to activate it by expending a Warp Charge point and taking a Psychic test (see page 67).-If the test is passed, all unsaved Wounds inflicted by the force weapon that turn have the instant Death Special Rule (see Page 38)."

And Page 35. Little Rule Book.

"Feel No Pain: When a Model with this special rule suffers an unsaved wound , it can make a special Feel No Pain roll to avoid being wounded (this is not a saving throw).-Note that Feel No Pain rolls cannot be taken against unsaved Wounds that inflict Instant Death."

Question? can you suffer a wound if you were wounded in the first place?

Easier way to explain it. A model will never suffer a wound, if the wound is never inflicted/Caused. If the wound is never inflicted/caused, then there is no need to make a saving throw. If there is no need to make a saving throw then there is no wound that could be suffered in the first place. I.E. the attacking player failed to wound. or did not cause any wounds, did not inflict any wounds. no wounding happened.

Thus, to take a FNP special Roll there must have been an inflicted Wound. FNP does not avoid the wound being inflicted/caused/happening but avoids the wound being suffered.

Again. How can you suffer something if you where never inflicted by something?




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ace101 Wrote

"You cant say a wound is unsaved if a saving throw hasn't been taken yet. If the saving throw fails, or none is possible, then it becomes unsaved, just some clarification.

Also, to the OP, i think of this as, "oh i failed to save against a force weapon, oh wait, i have feel no pain, i can take this throw before it is activated, 'cause it needs an unsaved wound." The force special rule doesn't immediately confer instant death, a 6 has to be rolled first, and im sure that FnP fall imbetween that because the wound is then treated after FnP is if it was saved. If there is no wound for the Psychic test, then there is no instant death then."

let us consider what you are saying. That a wound caused is not an unsaved wound until after the Saving throws are taken and failed. So is FNP a Saving throw? If yes, then it must be taken when saving throws are taken and at no other time. However, you are only allowed to make one saving throw per wound in the saving throw step(Or am I mistaken?). However, to even use FNP you must have suffered an unsaved wound (Is this correct?) Activating a Force weapon happens Immediately after inflicting an unsaved wound. So when is a wound inflicted? Is a wound inflicted only after a save is made? No. you have to have a wound to make a save, meaning that a wound was caused/inflicted prior to the saving throw being made. As a saving throw is not made against a wound that is never caused/inflicted (or am I wrong?). When does a Force weapon inflict a wound? When the the controlling player rolls to wound and Wounds. So has the Force weapon caused/Inflicted a wound at this point. Yes. Has the wound been saved for yet? No. So when is a wound inflicted and unsaved, but not suffered. Right after the the saving throw is failed if a saving throw can be made at all. When do you activate a Force Weapon? Immediately after an unsaved wound is caused/inflicted. When is this? At the very end of the Saving throw Step. When can a FNP roll be taken? After a Model with the FNP rule suffers an unsaved Wound. When does a model suffer a wound? After the saving throw Step in the Allocating wounds and removing Models step.

meaning that The roll for Force Weapon activation happens before the wounds are applied to the models, thus possibly making the Unsaved wounds from the Force Weapon ID and negating FNP.

First of all look at wounding under the shooting phase section. It specifically refers to wounds you have inflicted onto the enemy as wounds.

Then look to see that it refers to unsaved wounds specifically after you take saves.

Now look at FNP.

FNP happens when you have an unsaved wound.

Force also happens when you have an unsaved wound.

An unsaved wound occurs after you making your save, but before FNP.

Force and FNP occur at the same time. This probably means you roll off to see which effect takes precedence when to be honest it should just be that force weapons go off and deny FNP IMO.

Edit: Force says the Psyker immediately chooses. FNP does not. I'd say Force actually does happen before FNP.

 Red Comet wrote:

First of all look at wounding under the shooting phase section. It specifically refers to wounds you have inflicted onto the enemy as wounds.

Then look to see that it refers to unsaved wounds specifically after you take saves.

Now look at FNP.

FNP happens when you have an unsaved wound.

Force also happens when you have an unsaved wound.

An unsaved wound occurs after you making your save, but before FNP.

Force and FNP occur at the same time. This probably means you roll off to see which effect takes precedence when to be honest it should just be that force weapons go off and deny FNP IMO.

Edit: Force says the Psyker immediately chooses. FNP does not. I'd say Force actually does happen before FNP.

And that is what I have been trying to express . One happens Immediately after, and one just happens after.

Also Your Avatar is cool

My two cents:

If a Force Weapon activates, then FNP does not take effect because ID is caused.
If a Force Weapon is not activated, then FNP does take effect because ID is not caused.

Nice and balanced.

BLADERIKER wrote:

 Red Comet wrote:

First of all look at wounding under the shooting phase section. It specifically refers to wounds you have inflicted onto the enemy as wounds.

Then look to see that it refers to unsaved wounds specifically after you take saves.

Now look at FNP.

FNP happens when you have an unsaved wound.

Force also happens when you have an unsaved wound.

An unsaved wound occurs after you making your save, but before FNP.

Force and FNP occur at the same time. This probably means you roll off to see which effect takes precedence when to be honest it should just be that force weapons go off and deny FNP IMO.

Edit: Force says the Psyker immediately chooses. FNP does not. I'd say Force actually does happen before FNP.

And that is what I have been trying to express . One happens Immediately after, and one just happens after.

Also Your Avatar is cool

FNP says "When a model with this special rule suffers an unsaved Wound" P. 35

So you are told to take FNP when the unsaved wound is suffered.

Which is when the armor save is failed.

FNP goes first because if you put FNP second you break mechanics like Hexrifle and Entropic Strike.

We should apply the rules in a consistent manner and break no rule.

Applying FNP second breaks rules while applying it first breaks none.

 DeathReaper wrote:

FNP says "When a model with this special rule suffers an unsaved Wound" P. 35

So you are told to take FNP when the unsaved wound is suffered.

Which is when the armor save is failed.

FNP goes first because if you put FNP second you break mechanics like Hexrifle and Entropic Strike.

We should apply the rules in a consistent manner and break no rule.

Applying FNP second breaks rules while applying it first breaks none.

Even though I disagree and have been arguing that FnP goes first, his argument was unbeatable and I have to agree.

The problem is that RAW it goes like this:
1. Wound inflicted.
2. Saves are made.
3. Wound is suffered.
Like it or not, that's exactly what the BRB says.
And while FnP should/can be activated in phase 3, Force Weapons can only be activated in phase 1.
This means two things:
a) Force is activated two steps before FnP, thus wins over FnP.
b) Force is also activated before saves. That means that against a 2+ save, the Psyker is forced (haha, pun!) to activate his weapon before even knowing if it will actually do stuff.
Bearer of Force Weapons usually aren't really known for their gigantic number of attacks, so how hard is it to roll three 2+'s and laugh at him?

Your argument about "breaking" stuff would be a good one if FnP and Force-activation happened at the same time.
And even tho I thought they did, they don't as he has proven in one of his long posts.

 DeathReaper wrote:

FNP goes first because if you put FNP second you break mechanics like Hexrifle and Entropic Strike.

Not true. Both can be used with no problem at the same time as FNP, without breaking any mechanics.

copper.talos wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

FNP goes first because if you put FNP second you break mechanics like Hexrifle and Entropic Strike.

Not true. Both can be used with no problem at the same time as FNP, without breaking any mechanics.

If you apply ES and then pass your FNP roll, are you treating the wound as saved?

I asked a GW manager this a few weeks ago, and he said you'd get FnP

Yes I do. In the end the model doesn't lose a wound. It "felt no pain" but it lost its armour in the process. It doesn't "break" any mechanics, no division by zero and the game can continue.

quack98 wrote:
I asked a GW manager this a few weeks ago, and he said you'd get FnP

My mom said I'm cool....

Seriously GW don't always play the rules as the perfect version of the rules.

^Yes, but GW did write the rules, and as for 'my mom said I'm cool' I was asking him this in a game, and merely brought it as it was related to the topic and also the correct spelling is mum, as the English spelling of an English word in the English language is the correct spelling.