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 TheLionOfTheForest wrote:
Azrael + 50 man IG blob with special weapons and assorted power weapons on the srgs for challenges. I am gonna march these guys right across the board.

Another combo: tech priest with auspex attached to a dev squad to reduce enemies cover saves.

Why Azrael? A librarian adds more for 1/3 the cost.

As for the Techpriest w/Auspex the auspex only works on units within 12". Doesn't seem like a good idea on a dev squad.

Overall I think Black Knights are really solid. 1st turn Deepstriking with a large Belial squad is solid. Dev banner & Scouts is amazing. And librarians w/guard blobs are hilarious. There is a lot of potential in this book. Pity none of it includes the flyers

I was thinking of building a list around techmarine with invul attached to command squad with dev banner in a land raider crusader. They are then surrounded by a mechanized force. Will really add to the durability of the army.

Also makes multiple land raiders much scarier.

 Hulksmash wrote:

 TheLionOfTheForest wrote:
Azrael + 50 man IG blob with special weapons and assorted power weapons on the srgs for challenges. I am gonna march these guys right across the board.

Another combo: tech priest with auspex attached to a dev squad to reduce enemies cover saves.

Why Azrael? A librarian adds more for 1/3 the cost.

As for the Techpriest w/Auspex the auspex only works on units within 12". Doesn't seem like a good idea on a dev squad.

Overall I think Black Knights are really solid. 1st turn Deepstriking with a large Belial squad is solid. Dev banner & Scouts is amazing. And librarians w/guard blobs are hilarious. There is a lot of potential in this book. Pity none of it includes the flyers

Because Azrael gives "his squad" 4++. So imagine 50 guardsman with 4++.

Just noticed the range on the auspex . I guess you would need to paint the target with a close squad and then you can light if up with the res of your army.

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
I personally am extremely excited to have a new codex. The new units look very promising.

I was relieved to see I can keep my Company Veteran Squad, but their entry is almost identical to the old one pre-FAQ. By that I mean only 3 power weapons. I used my CVS as a suicide squad running around with power weapons and storm shields cracking skulls. I had hoped to run a squad of them with Azrael in a Land Raider for some added assault fun, I hope the FAQ might fix that...

Can't see any limit except 1 special weapon per 5 models and 1 heavy weapon max.
Anything else is available to each veteran.

The only issue I got with company vets is, I used all these different CCW when we had just "power-weapons" ...

DAalltheway wrote:

2. Azrael and a 9 man power armor command squad with all the bells, fancy banners and whistles

There's no such thing as a 9 man command squad.

Also, everyone should remember that Salvo bolters can only shoot 12" if you move (and aren't Relentless).

Now that we've had a couple days with the codex, how are ya'll thinking of dealing with flyer heavy lists?

What is our best counter to cron/IG flyer spam without using allies?

Dauntless, it depends on the flyers. Black Knights with twin linked plasma can get hits through weight of twin linked shots, though the range means the flyer would need to be awefully close. Dev squads with flak missiles are pricy but a multirole unit, and devs with las cannons are good at penning the av 12 flyers.

The All las pred is a decent option in place of the las dev squad, and if your going second and have belial in a 10 man unit of termies you can possibly deep strike behind an arriving flyer with 2 twin linked heavy weapons, if that is worth more than him starting on turn 1. Finally, scouts with snipers and a missile are a good troop to use, as the snipers can rend and the worse BS on the scouts means nothing when shooting flyers.

So after a first few readings, here are my thoughts:

-Ravenwing Black Knights look to be a gamechanger unit. They offer very powerful capabilities against many current threats; I can easily see why Vetock did not allow this unit to use Combat Squads. Similarly, Ravenwing Command Squads shouldn't be tooled up but are potentially strong solo units-- if you field this unit with minimal upgrades, it's basically another Black Knight squad at a slight points discount. Both of these units also promote synergy within the book very effectively.

-Deathwing Knights also seem potentially very strong-- against non-Imperial Marine armies they are more or less "TH/SS, but better." However they require more support than Ravenwing Black Knights to function effectively.

-Belial actually looks weak except with a Deathwing Assault-oriented army, where he really shines. His ability to take one big unit in on turn 1 with no scatter and then guide further units in on turn 2 with his teleport homer should not be discounted. If you don't plan on using Deathwing Assault or a Deathwing Command Squad Azrael looks like a stronger choice, especially given the synergies he opens up with Rites of Battle and dualwing.

-The Banner of Devastation looks like a potentially strong option, though I think this can also be a trap for players with unsophisticated army building skills, as taking a Command Squad, banner, and defensive tools to protect the banner gets really expensive really fast. This seems best in a "Greenwing" army, preferably one using Scouts, or in a Ravenwing army, though the banner seems especially hard to protect for Ravenwing Command Squads. Ironically, the banner is safest on a Deathwing Command Squad, but Deathwing synergize very poorly with it...

-Several allied selections seem strong. Many have pointed to using Azrael with an IG blob-- I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that isn't good, as IMO Uriah Jacobus does a similar thing but better and is rarely used. A normal Librarian does a good job here. One thing to note is that DA HQs, Techmarine aside, do *not* have And They Shall Know No Fear. This means that a DA-led blob is potentially vulnerable to Terrify in a way that SM, BA, or SW-led blobs aren't.

-DA are weak to flyers despite the availability of flakk missiles in large numbers. 85 points for 5 Tactical Marines with a flakk missile launcher is simply not effective enough as an all-comers selection in order to be justifiable, and the flyers you're really worried about (Stormravens and Vendettas) don't really care about flakk missiles anyway. When you add the fact that the Nephilim Jetfighter is ironically worse than the Stormtalon as an anti-aircraft unit, DA commanders may have to look to Allies and Fortifications to help them deal with enemy flyers.

-Whirlwinds, already a very underrated unit in other Marine Codexes, are just plain awesome at 65 points per model, especially in the 6th edition environment. I would expect to see a lot of these-- they have clearly beat out the old standby Dakkapred as the optimal anti-infantry Heavy Support choice.

-The Land Speeder Vengeance is extraordinarily underwhelming for its points. There is very little reason to take this unit over a Vindicator-- I think the Vindicator is outright better in most armies-- and it costs substantially more. Outside of theme lists I don't expect to see much of this guy-- it does have some degree of ability that the Vindicator doesn't against Monstrous Creatures and could be annoying when shooting at side armor, but AV10/2HP/Gets Hot is IMO too steep a price to pay.

Seconded with the vengeance. seems to risky, plus you can do more with a Devastator squad w/ 4 plasma cannons for 115pts. (flak missile squads are a lot more.)


I really like the changes to the tactical squads. they are cheaper IMHO, and they can do multiple small units and still be effective. plus razor spam could make a comeback.


I also like the regular company master builds a lot, too.

The company master builds are nice. It's nice to have solid wargear, artificer armor and relics to choose from.

Fought against Deathwing tonight with my Blood Angels.

Surprisingly not that killy, I found... Though I'm pretty sure my opponent hadn't read the book entirely.

One thing though, they are DAMN hard to actually put down. At one point I had about 25 assault marines in close combat with half a Knight squad and a command squad. I just bounced off them entirely.

Ok so parking lot seems ot be back full force with Dark angels.

Razorbacks cost the same when upgraded with a special weapon option though base cost is more expensive but heres a trick with the codex.

Libby and tech marines are cheep. one techie per one HQ you buy and heres the real kicker read power feild generator grants a 4+ to all units in 3 inches.

Load a dude with it in a razorback or land raider and boom 3 inch from hull invul saves. And yes its an invul save so if a mauler fiend charges you you still get saves versus cqc.

best part is liibrarians and tech marines can take them you could have 4 per army enouph to do a split up mechanized force and keep some mobility. Im suprised no one has caught that yet.

genobraker2004 wrote:
Ok so parking lot seems ot be back full force with Dark angels.

Razorbacks cost the same when upgraded with a special weapon option though base cost is more expensive but heres a trick with the codex.

Libby and tech marines are cheep. one techie per one HQ you buy and heres the real kicker read power feild generator grants a 4+ to all units in 3 inches.

Load a dude with it in a razorback or land raider and boom 3 inch from hull invul saves. And yes its an invul save so if a mauler fiend charges you you still get saves versus cqc.

best part is liibrarians and tech marines can take them you could have 4 per army enouph to do a split up mechanized force and keep some mobility. Im suprised no one has caught that yet.

I think this is considered underwhelming simply because getting 4+ or better cover on vehicles is easy in 6th edition, though you're right that this approach has more mobility.

well i want to play test it a bit because it will save you from melle attacks as well. and if you cont need to worry about LOS you are all the better. though some things like land speeders who cant get that good a cover save will love the invul.

 TheLionOfTheForest wrote:

 Hulksmash wrote:

 TheLionOfTheForest wrote:
Azrael + 50 man IG blob with special weapons and assorted power weapons on the srgs for challenges. I am gonna march these guys right across the board.

Another combo: tech priest with auspex attached to a dev squad to reduce enemies cover saves.

Why Azrael? A librarian adds more for 1/3 the cost.

As for the Techpriest w/Auspex the auspex only works on units within 12". Doesn't seem like a good idea on a dev squad.

Overall I think Black Knights are really solid. 1st turn Deepstriking with a large Belial squad is solid. Dev banner & Scouts is amazing. And librarians w/guard blobs are hilarious. There is a lot of potential in this book. Pity none of it includes the flyers

Because Azrael gives "his squad" 4++. So imagine 50 guardsman with 4++.

Just noticed the range on the auspex . I guess you would need to paint the target with a close squad and then you can light if up with the res of your army.

Azrael also adds fearless (I suppose the librarian does that too), and if you are doing DA as main you can give the whole blob furious charge with warlord trait he pick.

 sudojoe wrote:

hrm... got a reference for that? As far as I know, it overwatches with the krack grenade stats at str 6 AP4 one shot.

It's amazing what you find when you bother to look something up. I guess my opponent owes me an apology. Although d3 str:3 hits is hardly worth apologising about

Did not see anything about Asmodai (unless I missed a spot) any ideas how/if this guy should be used?

 Bobakos wrote:
Did not see anything about Asmodai (unless I missed a spot) any ideas how/if this guy should be used?

He really shouldnt be used he's not very good.

If you want a chaplain i would think your better off going with a Interigator on TA for the same cost.

You gain Deathwing Assault and vengefull strike as well as a 2+ save and you lose the "Blades of reason" and fear. Fear is useless 99% of the time and the blades look cool till you realise they are str4 ap- .

Did not check the AP...damn...Anyway thank you for the reply!

I think I have caught a misconception in this thread.

Regarding Ravenwing Grenade Launchers the Rad and Stasis effect is only applied to MODELS actually hit by the grenades. It is not a blanket-effect applied to the entire target-unit.

Steelmage99 wrote:
I think I have caught a misconception in this thread.

Regarding Ravenwing Grenade Launchers the Rad and Stasis effect is only applied to MODELS actually hit by the grenades. It is not a blanket-effect applied to the entire target-unit.

Uhm: "Rad Charge: Every model in a unit hit by one or more rad shells suffers a -1 penalty to their Toughness until the end of the turn." - sounds like the whole unit is effected, not only the models hit.

Steelmage99 wrote:
I think I have caught a misconception in this thread.

Regarding Ravenwing Grenade Launchers the Rad and Stasis effect is only applied to MODELS actually hit by the grenades. It is not a blanket-effect applied to the entire target-unit.

It can be read both ways, and will be argued endlessly on these forums until they release a definitive FAQ.

I didn't even occur to me for a second that it could be read as affecting the entire unit.

Well, gotta wait for an FAQ then.

Steelmage99 wrote:
I didn't even occur to me for a second that it could be read as affecting the entire unit.

Well, gotta wait for an FAQ then.

It is kind of confusing. But if it would not affect the entire unit, wouldn't it just say: "Rad Charge: Every model in a unit hit by one or more rad shells suffers a -1 penalty to their Toughness until the end of the turn."

Well theres a few things that need to be faq'd, but GW was relatively quick with the chaos faq.

I honestly feel that overall the codex is quite solid with no real useless units or heavily over costed ones and after much considering nothing too over powered that does not have a sold counter (dark shrouded Raven Wing knights might change that, but we'll see). If the fliers were better we'd have have the best codex I've seen in years.

 Spartan089 wrote:
Well theres a few things that need to be faq'd, but GW was relatively quick with the chaos faq.

Errors all over the place. Just noticed that Belial has an Iron Halo listed in the character section, but it's not given in his army list entry.

Yet another perk of the iBooks version. The little stuff that got missed when the book went to the printers gets fixed before the HTML5 version goes on sale.

Also, I don't see how there's any ambiguity when it says that any model in a unit hit with a rad grenade. Wounds are model specific, but hits are unit specific.

I am surprised more people havent been talking about the powerfield generator. I run a 3 Land Raider list for my deathwing (I like the Land Raiders more than the terminators) And to be able to give all of them a 4+ invulnerable if I have them together is awesome. And for my ravenwing I have made a list where I have a librarian with powerfield back with a squad of landspeeder typhoons that he can use his wonderful divination on, while a darkshroud rushes forward with a full black knight squad. Ravenwing no longer seem like a glass hammer. And to boot the powerfield rules are exactly what the 3rd ed codex lion helm rules were. So of course i need to use the Jawa in the dark model to represent it.

While the power field is certainly good for vehicles, special characters don't have access, an aegis with shroud grants a raider a 3+, and the power field helps your enemy when close like in assault.

It is strange, cause it could just have been easily been: "A unit hit by one or more rad shells..."

I just find it crazy, I mean, it's normal for GW to be fairly unclear about stuff but since 6th edition was released, the confusion has reached a whole new level. - And the typos!