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So here is my last video on BTP. I wanted to address some of the many questions I have seen as well as present all the facts. Sorry its long but I added some skip ahead links. I go over the initial contract as well as the un-edited response from BTP
http://youtu.be/3Po381lu1ds

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

winterdyne wrote:
I don't think you've overpaid for what you've got, really. I've not counted, but I do know that I wouldn't be giving you much if any change out of $500 for one of those big land-train mortar things, and that there are a heck of a lot of models in this army.

The difference is you would never paint to quality that low to begin with A lot of commission painters with reputations on Dakka wouldn't touch such low quality. So it's difficult to make a comparison on price.

The quality of these is more if I asked some kid at my local club who is looking to make some money in order to buy more plastic crack to paint me some models when I know they won't come out awesome but I don't have the time to do them myself. It's not even in the realm of what I expect professional painters to do.

It looks like there's ~120 infantry models, 5 or so war machines, maybe ~10 small monsters/cav sized models and half a dozen larger monsters. If I try and imagine what the time/effort would be, I'd say maybe the equivalent of 200 infantry sized models? So about $40 per infantry model averaged over the army? At that price you'd expect, what, around 3 hours per model from a mildly skilled painter and maybe 4 from a reasonably unskilled painter? (trying to think US prices where the minimum wage is much lower than it is here ).

So at 3-4 hours per model... yeah, I think you overpaid a bit. The bigger problem to me is that it's a HUGE investment for the army, around $10000 Given the investment and the advertised quality from BTP, I think you have the right to feel cheated on that and expect some recompense. If it were at the start of the project and the OP was asking for advice, sure, I'd tell them they should just pay a bit more and get them painted elsewhere.

Well, minimum wage varies from state to state, but in Florida it's $7.93 an hour. If you want to use $40 per model, that would turn out to be just a few minutes over five hours per model at Florida's minimum wage. Even from a brand new, hideously unskilled painter I'd expect at least an attempt to paint up some of the details if you gave them five hours on a model.

These responses from BTP are ridiculous.

Every time anything about Shawn's perceptions of the world come to light, they are mind blowing. And not for the reasons Shawn thinks they are.....

I watched all of that video and that hurt to hear their response. The politest term I can think of using in this context is they seem to have a bad case of "selective hearing" and "attention blindness". I hope things work out for you in the end. The review was fair and actually in their favour considering the quality they provided. Now they are just back-tracking what they said. I am glad stuff is becoming more public about things like theses so people can get a fair and well rounded image of things.

BTP isnt what it presents itself to be for a while. From what I gather from the studio updates, just having it said to be painted by an artist is probably false and was painted by a group of them. 99% of the large projects get worked on by more than 1 person. A lot of the time you see employees relaxing, playing a video game, or working on their personal stuff for them or fellow employee. I've seen a few BTP armies that get played at local cons and they don't look like money well spent. Much of the stuff they bring to adepticon isn't that great, and want an arm and a leg for it. A few of the artist that have left are the ones that put out quality work and begs to wonder why they left. I have a friend that commissioned some of his FW eldar, and found that at the lvl4/5 mark its subjective to paint the bottoms of vehicles and do some eyes vs others.

Haven't watched the latest video, but best thing I can say is just get a refund somehow.

In addition to this, I remember a good chunk of years ago say 5, that he received a Armorcast Phantom Titan in what was to be a trade for terrain. He literally flipped and sold the titan(after it was painted w/ an army to match IIRC) before the client that traded it got the terrain. Upon getting the terrain it was a mockery of what was agreed upon and went public with people able to see the Face on Pringle cans through paint and Tide bottles just painted over with no additional work to transform it at all.

Anyone want to post a bit about BTP's response for those who don't want to click through the video?

 Eilif wrote:
Anyone want to post a bit about BTP's response for those who don't want to click through the video?

Really, you should just watch the video. I think tenebre probably said verbatim what was sent to him by BTP (or at least I hope he did, because if he didn't he should probably expect a lawsuit).

IMO on the issue (slightly biased, knowing only tenebre's side of the story), if there was a college class on Customer Service 101, this is a classic case of failure. To a point: Customer Service is the art of either making customers happy and losing money, or making money but getting your ******* torn open in public (i.e. a Public Relations disaster).

If from what I gather from several of BTP's earlier responses, the original artist clearly hadn't been working on the project (at least not to quality) and then tried to steal the figures. If this was the case, the quick customer service fix would be a 10-20% discount to the client (for being late), a note to the client regarding the situation, and the eventual delivery of the project at desired quality (albeit late).

Instead, someone covered the issue up and hoped the work would be glossed over by a dumber client (based on the first video, tenebre is a legit art critic, thus problems got caught)

tenebre,
I'm sorry you lost your money and may never get it back. I hope you never have to deal with a customer service issue like this ever again.
Thank you for your video to the community. You've managed to inform the rest of us this might be a scam and prevented the similar loss of money.
I hope another painting service offers to take your project at a discounted price or in a timely manner to restore everyone's faith in the community and/or raise their community standing.

Sincerely,
Me

 -Loki- wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

winterdyne wrote:
I don't think you've overpaid for what you've got, really. I've not counted, but I do know that I wouldn't be giving you much if any change out of $500 for one of those big land-train mortar things, and that there are a heck of a lot of models in this army.

The difference is you would never paint to quality that low to begin with A lot of commission painters with reputations on Dakka wouldn't touch such low quality. So it's difficult to make a comparison on price.

Also - that's your pricing. Not BTPs. If they're charging for showcase quality what you'd charge for tabletop quality, that's simply them charging less. It doesn't lower the expected delivered quality.

The one thing I can agree with Shawn on is that quality is subjective. We can only go on general consensus of services with good reputation.
This gives a set of baselines of sorts. I boil down to two levels really; high end tabletop (what I game with) and competition grade. Talking about passes, layers blah blah is technically pointless. Too much depends on specifics for the job.

As for them charging less; they're charging for their level of quality (any place does). If they can demonstrably be proven to have lied about something they're in trouble, and up to that point it's very much caveat emptor. My point was the expected quality really needs to be measured against the two yardsticks of time and money. Thirdly, there's experience, which is not so easy to put numbers on. I've been painting for nearly thirty years, but I'm nowhere near as fast as Brandon (GMM) or as skilled at NMM as Tommie (Golem). I do other stuff and I wheedle out what's in my clients' heads. That latter part is more of the job than you might think; this is not paint by numbers, and clients often have contradictory ideas which take some work to codify.

Is there somewhere that has samples of the BTP levels?

At the end of the day, quality wise, that's what it comes down to. If they aren't putting out the advertised quality then they're doing the wrong thing. I know what you're saying, winterdyne, with buyer beware, but the buyer should not have to be looking through false advertising.

But that said... I can't find samples of their levels. I remember they used to have them up and I remember a level 4 being something that didn't look terrible.

Beyond the quality issue, there's the issue of not living up to the contract which outlined how the models should be painted. I'm very much with the OP on this, just because a picture looks dark doesn't mean most of it can be left black primer. The reference images for the army are definitely dark... but they're dark reds and metals and browns, not black.

At the end of the day, I think if a company can't produce something for the price they say they can produce it, the company is pretty much entirely in the wrong. It's up to them to tell you that no they can't do it and it's not up to them to take artistic license with the contract.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Is there somewhere that has samples of the BTP levels?

At the end of the day, quality wise, that's what it comes down to. If they aren't putting out the advertised quality then they're doing the wrong thing. I know what you're saying, winterdyne, with buyer beware, but the buyer should not have to be looking through false advertising.

But that said... I can't find samples of their levels. I remember they used to have them up and I remember a level 4 being something that didn't look terrible.

Beyond the quality issue, there's the issue of not living up to the contract which outlined how the models should be painted. I'm very much with the OP on this, just because a picture looks dark doesn't mean most of it can be left black primer. The reference images for the army are definitely dark... but they're dark reds and metals and browns, not black.

At the end of the day, I think if a company can't produce something for the price they say they can produce it, the company is pretty much entirely in the wrong. It's up to them to tell you that no they can't do it and it's not up to them to take artistic license with the contract.

I fully agree with all of this. Similarly doing anything extreme (the red 'glow' for example) without the say-so or approval of the client is a definite no-no. The Mayan-style space marines I'm doing at the moment were originally to be all turquoise (according to the client). I thought a beige/sandstone sorf of colour would hold the theme better, said so, said why, and did a test model to show the better scheme. Client approves (or not) at that point and the rest of the job grinds on. That's what should be done with ideas, and that's what gets clients to trust you and accept your guidance in future.

 Physh wrote:


In addition to this, I remember a good chunk of years ago say 5, that he received a Armorcast Phantom Titan in what was to be a trade for terrain. He literally flipped and sold the titan(after it was painted w/ an army to match IIRC) before the client that traded it got the terrain. Upon getting the terrain it was a mockery of what was agreed upon and went public with people able to see the Face on Pringle cans through paint and Tide bottles just painted over with no additional work to transform it at all.

I think I know what phantom you are talking about. I recall seeing a video of that army. I never heard this story about a trade for terrain or even seen this terrain.

Having seen the second video, I'm starting to rethink my stance of BTP's issues arising solely from being overwhelmed and out of touch. There is some very clear and deliberate attempts at (for lack of a better term) bullying tenebre. First and foremost is the constant attempts to shift the blame onto him, to make him feel like he is the one at fault for posting his review, rather than it being BTP's fault that they fail;ed the project in the first place. Second is the really poor "we have so many happy clients" angle which has no bearing at all on the current situation, it's another attempt to pressure someone into accepting a resolution they are not happy with.

Finally, I think what we most see is something anyone who has had a bad experience with BTP has shared; there is a huge reliance on stalling, delay, overwheming-with-words and what is seemingly intentional muddying of the concerns in order to get the client to simply give up and take what is being offered out of frustration. I know I had this happen to me, and reading this thread, it seems to have happened to others. I wonder how much of that is intentional now.

This looks like a clear case of a money grab to me. No one viewing the first video can think that the models are painted to the standard that was agreed upon, and it's hard to believe that BTP expected to get repeat business for such work.

This smacks of a company that is desperately looking to pad their bottom line even if that means losing any chance of repeat customers. That is not the kind of company that one would be wise to deal with.

I suspect that some customers who paid for (and received) lower table-top level armies are pleased with the results, but that in no way make up for scamming those who pay for top quality results.

Just watched through your vid Tenebre.

Terrible treatment you're getting; I massively disapprove - it casts the commission industry as a whole in a very negative light.

I'll repeat my earlier statement - you have several months, full time work, to bring that up to a decent standard. Only accept a faster estimate from someone provably fast (to which I'd say Brandon at GMM - he is sorcerously quick).

I'll also make an offer; I will paint, for free (shipping not included), that character model you had issues with, to 'high end tabletop' standard, so you know what you can get in other places from decent artists. Drop me a PM if you'd like this and we can discuss details.

Edit: Yes, this will lead to a perhaps inconsistent army. What you have now is gak anyway.

Seriously nice offer Winterdyne!

 Flippa wrote:
Seriously nice offer Winterdyne!

Seconded!

OP - any other update, or continued response from BTP ?

Any legal heat yet?

That was a nice offer winterdyne. Exalted!

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Is there somewhere that has samples of the BTP levels?

At the end of the day, quality wise, that's what it comes down to. If they aren't putting out the advertised quality then they're doing the wrong thing. I know what you're saying, winterdyne, with buyer beware, but the buyer should not have to be looking through false advertising.

But that said... I can't find samples of their levels. I remember they used to have them up and I remember a level 4 being something that didn't look terrible.

 Ouze wrote:
.....
The thing I don't get about this is - they have a video up showing their painting levels:




And they sort of all look pretty terrible. I mean, what you got seems pretty good relative to what they claim to sell. Even the highest levels offered aren't particularly great to my eye.

Page 5 is not an excuse!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
EDIT: JINKIES! The video is gone now!

Yeah, it was that removed video I encountered when I tried searching.

I would like to a reference of level 4 for comparison... but I have a feeling that's why the video was removed, they don't want to incriminate themselves in the public eye (or legal eye) by having reference images of different levels.

http://youtu.be/s7gkXVuUz4E?t=3m9s


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Those Wave Serpents are way better level 3's than tenebre's vehicles.

 melkorthetonedeaf wrote:
http://youtu.be/s7gkXVuUz4E?t=3m9s


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Those Wave Serpents are way better level 3's than tenebre's vehicles.

"But that's the general rule when you upgrade from level 3 to level 4. You can expect a lot more scrutiny and a lot more detail to be put in to the models."

You don't say...

 melkorthetonedeaf wrote:
http://youtu.be/s7gkXVuUz4E?t=3m9s


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Those Wave Serpents are way better level 3's than tenebre's vehicles.

It's really quite hard to see, but the lines do look cleaner and details don't seem to be missing.

But for some reason I can't play the video in 720p and it's rather blurry in the lower resolutions so it's hard to say.

They also chose the wave serpents which are very easy to paint with an airbrush, there's probably only 3 to 4 hours painting in each one (plus assembly, no idea how long they take to assemble).

It is a worry when they don't provide static pics of somewhat reasonable resolution. A video where you pick up a model and wave it in front of the camera is really not sufficient for getting an idea of the painting quality.

 melkorthetonedeaf wrote:
http://youtu.be/s7gkXVuUz4E?t=3m9s.

LOL, the bluetooth in the ear at all times... Strike 1.

Tenebre, I'm really sorry for how much you've gone through in this ordeal. For what it's worth, your Chaos Dwarves army is awesome despite the unfortunate paintjob. I wish you the best of luck in getting satisfaction from BTP and want to thank you for bringing this issue to light so that others might be spared the same bad experience. High five.

Looks like they've taken the video of their painting levels private - for good reason, too. What they were showing in it as representative of level4/6 painting is nothing like what this poor army got.

The work they did looked rushed, sloppy, and inconsistent (except in its mediocrity). By their own standards I'd say this army was level 2, with some lazy airbrushing to pass it off as a higher level. How does something like the OSL lava 'effects' he didn't even request get in there, when the blood and gore he wanted was no where to be seen?

So when I attended Feast in '13, I was curious about what BTP offered and had them explain to me their levels and what not. I got the "looks good to the opponent, looks good to me, looks good at arm length, and finally results in looks good at close scrutiny". I acted as a pleb just trying to see what I would charge if I started to commission (I'm no Garden Ninja, GMM, Winterdyne, etc.), but I know people were interested in my ability. My thoughts were always level variation on model costs and start from there... basic paint? 1x. Good-Great paint? 2x. My best? 3x. (negotiate if it's a rare model with an absurd cost versus a reaper mini)

I work full time and have plenty of my own projects, so I didn't pursue the endeavor, but I then asked BTP about what it would cost to paint at my level...

I showed them this, which I got a 3rd place result for the local crystal brush:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/555331-.html?m=2

Not gonna lie, followed BuyPainted almost to a T just to see if I could. But I digress, I was told that it was a Level 6 model easy and that it would cost hundreds for them to do. I shrugged and thought if I asked the $200 to do one, I'd not feel too bad.

Now, fast forward to this thread,... I'm shocked. While they have good, clean colors and know where to place it for the glow effects, the amount of bare primer and dry brushing is a big pile of nope. I may yet commission someday, but that's just asinine for what you paid for. I hope for a reasonable resolution, but take note that there are many folks watching this thread who will withhold dollars from them (or maybe even compete against them... ).

I wonder if the pulling of the painting level video is in reaction to tenebre's video where he says he is getting lawyers involved?

That army looks gorgeous imo :/

 cyberjonesy wrote:
That army looks gorgeous imo :/

Yes, but does it look ~$8,000 USD gorgeous? A solid pre-owned vehicle gorgeous?

I can't even wrap my head around paying that much for getting an army painted. Which is why most of my stuff isn't, I guess.