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It seems that most of the initial wave of anger at the new Eldar codex has abated on these boards. Now instead of rage threads full of complaining, we have more threads just being snarky or trying to adapt certain armies to the new codex, which are only somewhat composed of complaining.

At this point, I guess we should take what we can get.

I am really frustrated by the fact that a product out of the box from GW will be this badly broken. The thing is that there's no point in talking about it because there's almost unilateral agreement from the community. GW is an incommunicado, intractable, silent monolith, and they don't have a great reputation for balancing their games, so I doubt anything will happen in the near future.

pickled_heretic wrote:
I am really frustrated by the fact that a product out of the box from GW will be this badly broken. The thing is that there's no point in talking about it because there's almost unilateral agreement from the community. GW is an incommunicado, intractable, silent monolith, and they don't have a great reputation for balancing their games, so I doubt anything will happen in the near future.

You're right. GW will not be helping to sort out a mess of their own creation. I will be up to the players themselves to bring Eldar down to the power level of other armies.

My wife plays Eldar, we had this discussion. Essentially, it's a no win.

Take me, a Tyranid player. I can walk into the FLGS with my army, and play a pickup game with no guilt whatsoever even using some of our competitive, finer units in the dex. But an Eldar player has to hamstring herself VERY actively to play even friendly games now (far moreso than before, and even that was bad). It's a lose lose for her, either she uses the very obviously awesome runaway tools at her disposal or she is forced to go WAY out of her way to even approach being fair.

Any brilliant games she could be playing with her army are brought low by the insane power creep of her codex. Which sucks, because she likes Eldar and started them in 5th, only to see them become a monster.

I know this has been brought up though perhaps all future codexes will get the Magic Mushroom power up...

It may take awhile, less GW continues to pump out dexes at break neck speed.

Wonder if we will see any 40k game-wide eratta anytime soon.

 Iechine wrote:
My wife plays Eldar, we had this discussion. Essentially, it's a no win.

Take me, a Tyranid player. I can walk into the FLGS with my army, and play a pickup game with no guilt whatsoever even using some of our competitive, finer units in the dex. But an Eldar player has to hamstring herself VERY actively to play even friendly games now (far moreso than before, and even that was bad). It's a lose lose for her, either she uses the very obviously awesome runaway tools at her disposal or she is forced to go WAY out of her way to even approach being fair.

Any brilliant games she could be playing with her army are brought low by the insane power creep of her codex. Which sucks, because she likes Eldar and started them in 5th, only to see them become a monster.

That is why I cannot stand the apologists who use TO house rules as a talking point as to why it is not a big deal. It is a big deal because 90% of the player base games outside comped events and for them its now a lose lose situation. They either kneecap themselves to make it more "fair" which makes their opponent feeling crappy because they clubbed your baby seal version of a list, or they make the list still "too competitive" and any win they get is due to playing a WAAC army. Either way, it's poor rules design to put game balance solely in the hands of one player during list design.

Honestly, you play to the level of game you want to play.

If you are playing me? Bring whatever level of list, I want the practice playing it.

Do I bring my tournament lists to my local store for regular games? Nope, I bring something else(this year its dreadnaughts). Am I an Eldar player? Nope but I recognize that I am either a better player/know the rules better than a majority of the people around me and so I lower the power level of my lists so that they can have fun at the same time as I do while also bringing out some other units I never get to use.

So for eldar if you are playing at the local level, dont bring the over the top stuff, still make a good list just not the most optimized list. There are plenty of things in the eldar book that are worth taking, even if they are not the BEST in that book.

Second you can still take the units, but dont spam them. Dont take 40 scatter bikes + 30 WG. Maybe take 10 bikes, or not upgrade everyone.

When I was overseas I would play my 1850 list against their 2000 point lists, I would limit myself to two detachments while they were completely open, etc. For me there is no fun in a easy win, I see it as a challenge and it makes a win all the sweeter.

 Skerr wrote:
I know this has been brought up though perhaps all future codexes will get the Magic Mushroom power up...

It may take awhile, less GW continues to pump out dexes at break neck speed.

Wonder if we will see any 40k game-wide eratta anytime soon.

Considering 7th isn't even a year old yet and was a rushed patch for 6th I doubt it. Frankly they were doing fine until Necrons, heck harlequins and skitarri are great, but this eldar release is insane.

Honestly, you play to the level of game you want to play.

If you are playing me? Bring whatever level of list, I want the practice playing it.

Do I bring my tournament lists to my local store for regular games? Nope, I bring something else(this year its dreadnaughts). Am I an Eldar player? Nope but I recognize that I am either a better player/know the rules better than a majority of the people around me and so I lower the power level of my lists so that they can have fun at the same time as I do while also bringing out some other units I never get to use.

So for eldar if you are playing at the local level, dont bring the over the top stuff, still make a good list just not the most optimized list. There are plenty of things in the eldar book that are worth taking, even if they are not the BEST in that book.

Second you can still take the units, but dont spam them. Dont take 40 scatter bikes + 30 WG. Maybe take 10 bikes, or not upgrade everyone.

This exactly. Know what kind of game your opponents want to play. Most importantly, know what game you want to play. If you find the right crowd, you will have no issues either way.

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Iechine wrote:
My wife plays Eldar, we had this discussion. Essentially, it's a no win.

Take me, a Tyranid player. I can walk into the FLGS with my army, and play a pickup game with no guilt whatsoever even using some of our competitive, finer units in the dex. But an Eldar player has to hamstring herself VERY actively to play even friendly games now (far moreso than before, and even that was bad). It's a lose lose for her, either she uses the very obviously awesome runaway tools at her disposal or she is forced to go WAY out of her way to even approach being fair.

Any brilliant games she could be playing with her army are brought low by the insane power creep of her codex. Which sucks, because she likes Eldar and started them in 5th, only to see them become a monster.

That is why I cannot stand the apologists who use TO house rules as a talking point as to why it is not a big deal. It is a big deal because 90% of the player base games outside comped events and for them its now a lose lose situation. They either kneecap themselves to make it more "fair" which makes their opponent feeling crappy because they clubbed your baby seal version of a list, or they make the list still "too competitive" and any win they get is due to playing a WAAC army. Either way, it's poor rules design to put game balance solely in the hands of one player during list design.

I don't think that TO house rules are the the solution to the problem, and agree that it still poses a problem to casual/friendly players. What is helpful about TO rulings is that it gives players some ideas for their own local house rules.

At the end of the day, like most competitive games, Warhammer 40k is dependent upon both players having a conversation about what kind of game they want to have. Are some armies better in this area than others? Undoubtedly. But I would argue that Eldar can still put up a good fight in friendly contexts.

Eldar are a hard matchup for many of the armies out there due to their suitability to the meta; they have the speed to grab objectives, the firepower to put up a fight, and the MSU to secure objectives. But if you take out the spam and cheese elements, even with the buffs to Aspect Warriors, there are plenty of ways for other armies to deal with Eldar without resorting to list-tailoring.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Edit for double post.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
The codex is out of the bag. As it turns out, we aren't the victims of a massive hoax: all of the rumored changes are true.

Fortunately, as I stated previously, the anger in these boards has given way to something resembling acceptance, as people struggle to find ways that their army can deal with Scatriders and 5 D-flamers for 210 points. Truly we live in dark times, as the perfidious Eldar look to secure their dominance over the 40k playerbase the only way they know how: massive doses of cheese and spam.

I'll update the OP once I get the codex in hand. Nothing that hasn't been discussed has changed.

Now non-Eldar players are trying to find ways to deal with the new codex now that people have it in hand and are beginning to use it on the tabletop. I don't envy them.

To be fair, from an eldar players point of view, and having seen most of the new book, there's actually some beautiful lists to be built without the afore mentioned cheese and spam. Some really nice and powerful combinations using aspect warriors in particular. They've done such a nice job with the book in that respect. It's a shame they've undone some of their hard work in others.

Personally, I'm pretty happy. I wanted to field an aspect list in 6th,but it wasn't quite good enough. Now I think they have the tools. Looking on the bright side and all that.

I'm sure something along these lines will have already come up in the discussion, but I'll say it anyway: if your playing a game where the winning really matters (ie tournament play) then there just needs to be some form of comp like there is fir fantasy. I mostly play WHFB and every event I attend has different comp rules that try to balance out the power spectrum of the army books. Afaik this has never really been done before in 40K (correct me if I'm wrong), and I don't know why. I'm genuinely interested about this actually.

Again if the game you're playing is a pick up or down your local club then you should know what you're in for before you start and adjust the power of your list accordingly. Although I do understand that that last point may be difficult with the new book.

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
To be fair, from an eldar players point of view, and having seen most of the new book, there's actually some beautiful lists to be built without the afore mentioned cheese and spam. Some really nice and powerful combinations using aspect warriors in particular. They've done such a nice job with the book in that respect. It's a shame they've undone some of their hard work in others.

Personally, I'm pretty happy. I wanted to field an aspect list in 6th,but it wasn't quite good enough. Now I think they have the tools. Looking on the bright side and all that.

Well said. A long time Eldar player here locally used to play Shinning Spears (with no wave serpents) when everyone said they were crap and not worth taking. He walked all over the net lists that a few unfortunate players thought would give them the auto win.

I'm looking forward to all the cool and unexpected combinations that seem possible with this codex. It so dense that I will be busy for a long time trying out really cool list ideas.

I'm sure some of the more casual players here may grumble because the codex has a really nasty reputation. My plan is to try out unconventional ideas and make sure we both have a fun game.