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 hiveof_chimera wrote:
I got a reply from forgeworld, looks promising, they're going to be updating the FAQ's

They said that when 7th edition dropped regarding all the Space Marine characters....

Yeah, I've thought about using it too. Essentially one of the Falcons would contain Fire Dragons (dead whatever tank you want) and the others would contain DAs. The Dragons would be part of an Aspect Host with Spiders and Hawks, and there'd be another footslogging DA unit for the Shrine, with Eldrad in tow. Add in one of the Core Detachments and you're done. It comes up to about 2k, but I think it'd be a pretty cool army to use. One of the posters here did bring up the issue of DS-ing 3 Falcons next to each other being actually very difficult in practice purely due to their footprint, but I reckon it'd be something you'd have to test out.

True, Im going to try it out and see how it plays. The 4" proximity rule under CS does give you a small amount of leeway though (as opposed to normal DS rules where you have to clump up, awaiting a pieplate hit).
Am I right in thinking when the FDs disembark they can only snapshot as they will have counted as moving more than 12" under the DS rules? Or was that 6th ed

Vehicles are considered to have moved Combat Speed (6"). Units may disembark during the movement phase in which they arrive via Deep Strike. During the shooting phase, Eldar may still use Battle Focus and fire at normal BS. If you choose to not disembark, a fast skimmer can still make an 18" Flat Out move.

Cheers, was getting confused.

 Skinnereal wrote:

 The Shadow wrote:
Yeah, I've thought about using it too. Essentially one of the Falcons would contain Fire Dragons (dead whatever tank you want) and the others would contain DAs. The Dragons would be part of an Aspect Host with Spiders and Hawks, and there'd be another footslogging DA unit for the Shrine, with Eldrad in tow. Add in one of the Core Detachments and you're done. It comes up to about 2k, but I think it'd be a pretty cool army to use. One of the posters here did bring up the issue of DS-ing 3 Falcons next to each other being actually very difficult in practice purely due to their footprint, but I reckon it'd be something you'd have to test out.

Wouldn't a Ghostwalk Matrix let them DS into cover? That would make them easier to DS in, despite their size.
Or, would that trigger a DS Mishap?

I've not played in a while, but as far as I can remember, deep striking into cover is absolutely fine (though I guess, considering the fact the vehicles, which are skimmers, are ending their move in terrain they'll need to take a Dangerous Terrain test). I think the issue here is other models and impassable terrain. And even if a Ghostwalk Matrix did help in anyway, it's an expensive upgrade that I don't think I'd want to take.

 The Shadow wrote:

 Skinnereal wrote:

 The Shadow wrote:
Yeah, I've thought about using it too. Essentially one of the Falcons would contain Fire Dragons (dead whatever tank you want) and the others would contain DAs. The Dragons would be part of an Aspect Host with Spiders and Hawks, and there'd be another footslogging DA unit for the Shrine, with Eldrad in tow. Add in one of the Core Detachments and you're done. It comes up to about 2k, but I think it'd be a pretty cool army to use. One of the posters here did bring up the issue of DS-ing 3 Falcons next to each other being actually very difficult in practice purely due to their footprint, but I reckon it'd be something you'd have to test out.

Wouldn't a Ghostwalk Matrix let them DS into cover? That would make them easier to DS in, despite their size.
Or, would that trigger a DS Mishap?

I've not played in a while, but as far as I can remember, deep striking into cover is absolutely fine (though I guess, considering the fact the vehicles, which are skimmers, are ending their move in terrain they'll need to take a Dangerous Terrain test). I think the issue here is other models and impassable terrain. And even if a Ghostwalk Matrix did help in anyway, it's an expensive upgrade that I don't think I'd want to take.

Deepstriking into terrain triggers a dangerous terrain test. Ghostwalk matrix allows the falcons to automatically pass the test. I consider Ghostwalk Matrices to be indispensable upgrades. It allows you to exploit ruins at no risk of immobilization.

I think it'll come down to Ghostwalk or Holo, this edition. Either a 5++ in the open or easier to get terrain cover. Jink is good, but not jinking is better.

I'm not sold on the ghostwalk matrices myself. I usually get my cover saves by sticking behind the cover since standing in it doesn't give an automatic cover save to vehicles anyway. I find you often need to have all of the cover in front of you to get the 25% covered minimum. I only seem to take maybe one or two dangerous terrain checks per game with my dark eldar and I often run 10ish vehicles with that army so I don't think I'd be willing to spend 60-100 points on an upgrade just to stop a 1/6 chance of one vehicle getting stuck. "Leave them, they're goners" I say.

Degenerate Dark Citiers.

Every Eldar life is precious.

For Craftworlders, each tank is critical. That one DT failure could cost you the game.

Although part of my love of it is its awesome to swoop up on top of something or in between things.

Paying 10 points to eliminate a dice roll when you want a vehicle in terrain for an objective, a closer disembark move with your unit inside, or even just keeping a mobile vehicle is well worth the few points.

I never leave home without ghostwalk matrices. Not in the last book and I won't in this book either (provided I take any vehicles now).

Even in the last codex I preferred ghost walk to holo fields, but I was prob in the minority there when you look at a lot of the GT lists. Now I think that question is a lot easier.

The falcon deep strike will be a mixed bag. It's very expensive and it isn't like your opponent won't know what's about to happen. The chances of getting that deep strike where all the units + 3 falcons get to take advantage of it is pretty low.

I always run the more boys before more toys approach. Getting a vehicle stuck on dangerous terrain could end up losing me a game (although like I said, I rarely have need to actually take the roll in the first place), but saving the 10 points per vehicle is also the cost of an aspect squad or another windrider guardian squad (depending on how many vehicles you guys are running these on). Not having that extra squad could also cost me the game because I would lose the extra output from another unit dealing damage to my opponent in addition to the board control they offer.

As opposed to getting the most from a unit you have already, and its passengers in this case.

[Appended:]
For deploying Scorpions into cover, the transport can be, too.
And, if space is short, you get a lot more options when deploying, as you get to hide a facing or two.

Eldar skimmers have turrets though, so an Immobilised isn't that big a problem.

Perhaps it's because I'm a little riskier in playstyle, but I really think that Holo Fields are a no-brainer over Ghostwalk. Even if you do get them in cover, a lot of the time that's going to be a 5+ anyway and then considering you get Holo Fields against things with Ignore Cover, and can always risk the 1/6 chance of Immobilisation (which may not even matter that much depending on the tank and the situation) if you really think you need a 4+ from ruins or something. And Holo Fields are 10 points cheaper, which does add up if you're planning on taking multiple vehicles.

I can see the advantage of having one, maybe two, of the three falcons upgraded to Ghostwalk so you can more effectively deep strike them in more areas.

I thought holofields were 5pts more than ghostwalk matrices...?

Do you guys think an aspect formation with only minimum squads of Dark Reapers could be good?

So you have 6 reapers with 6x BS5, S8, Ignore Jink, AP3 and reroll to hit on flyers. Against bike lists they have 12 shots at S5 with AP3 that can't be jinked against.

Then you have 3 exarchs with 6x EML shots at BS6 Ignore Jink and reroll to hit on flyers. From there you can pick between 6x Blast at S4 AP4, 6x S7 skyfire shots that is not going to miss and can't be jink saved, or 6x S8 AP3 shots which opposing bikes can't jink out of.

The cost is 378 points, so I am unsure if they are worth it. Could spare 36 points by dropping EMLs and getting only the starshot missile upgrades on the exarchs.

 The Shadow wrote:
Perhaps it's because I'm a little riskier in playstyle, but I really think that Holo Fields are a no-brainer over Ghostwalk. Even if you do get them in cover, a lot of the time that's going to be a 5+ anyway and then considering you get Holo Fields against things with Ignore Cover, and can always risk the 1/6 chance of Immobilisation (which may not even matter that much depending on the tank and the situation) if you really think you need a 4+ from ruins or something. And Holo Fields are 10 points cheaper, which does add up if you're planning on taking multiple vehicles.

I can see the advantage of having one, maybe two, of the three falcons upgraded to Ghostwalk so you can more effectively deep strike them in more areas.

Ghost Walker Matrix requires all models in the squadron to take the upgrade, and falcons only deep strike if you take 3.
I could go with ghost walker and vectored engines.
You can land anywhere, face backwards to disembark 6" at the enemy, battle focus 6 more inches. Then shoot with the top turrents and vector engine to turn the squishy rear armor 10 away from the enemy.
It's expensive, but you can really bring a lot of hurt to the enemy, and still have the falcons and a decent stand off range.

 Acidian wrote:
Do you guys think an aspect formation with only minimum squads of Dark Reapers could be good?

The cost is 378 points, so I am unsure if they are worth it.

At 2500 points, I would definitely take an all-Reaper Aspect Host.

At 1500, I would go 2 units Reapers + 1 unit Spiders - break it up a bit.

Guys whats your views via math hammer of shuirken cannons VS scatterlasers this release?
Say taking a 3 man War Walker unit maxed with both loadsouts.
Obviously scats have 12" more range and an extra shot but does bladestorm outweigh this?
Has/can anyone run a math hammer VS TEQ/MEQ etc?

 Ratius wrote:
Guys whats your views via math hammer of shuirken cannons VS scatterlasers this release?
Say taking a 3 man War Walker unit maxed with both loadsouts.
Obviously scats have 12" more range and an extra shot but does bladestorm outweigh this?
Has/can anyone run a math hammer VS TEQ/MEQ etc?

I don't think there will be a universally better choice because a lot of the decision will be affected by other variables. What is your local meta, what units do you usually have a tough time against, what are your target priorities for the weapons, etc.

I think I'm generally more in favor of the scatter laser on my jetbikes because of the increased range (and increased survivability as a result) and because of the extra shot for knocking out low armor values. If you want better odds for facing riptides, wraithknights, or c'tan, then I'd be more inclined to recommend the shuriken cannon. Personally, I'd run different options on the warwalkers because those are choices you can already make for the jetbikes, so let the warwalkers take something different like the EML imo. Plus, the shuriken cannon bikes can get shred if you take the formation as a further bonus to them.

Wasnt aware of the formation shred rule, thats very nice.

Just a note - formation shred only applies for the windrider host. Warwalkers can't be bought in said formation, but they can get preferred enemy within 12" of a guardian unit in their respective formation. Scatters and Shurikens both benefit from the rerolling 1's, but it's a wash. I personally will only take scatters for both the shot & range. Bladestorm is mitigated when an opponent is in even 5+ area terrain, so it's never a big deal for me.

Plus, I find games are won in the movement phase. Having 36" vs 24" is just too good to even consider the alternative.

 Rypher wrote:
Just a note - formation shred only applies for the windrider host. Warwalkers can't be bought in said formation, but they can get preferred enemy within 12" of a guardian unit in their respective formation. Scatters and Shurikens both benefit from the rerolling 1's, but it's a wash. I personally will only take scatters for both the shot & range. Bladestorm is mitigated when an opponent is in even 5+ area terrain, so it's never a big deal for me.

Plus, I find games are won in the movement phase. Having 36" vs 24" is just too good to even consider the alternative.

I would take both. You won't be able to keep everything at 36", some of the bikes are going to need to get closer, or are going to get cornered.
Having a little bit of blade storm along with the rest of the bikes are longer range isn't a bad thing.
I think I'll do a 2:1 mix in the wind riders (2 scatter units, 1 shur-cannon unit) and a 1:1 mix in other detachments.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

I would take both. You won't be able to keep everything at 36", some of the bikes are going to need to get closer, or are going to get cornered.
Having a little bit of blade storm along with the rest of the bikes are longer range isn't a bad thing.
I think I'll do a 2:1 mix in the wind riders (2 scatter units, 1 shur-cannon unit) and a 1:1 mix in other detachments.

It does depend on what you want the list to do or what you find lacking. I still think scatters are the superior option, especially with placement. My current lists only run 3x3 jetbikes, all with scatters. They're there for objectives late game and adding some firepower to my army. But I have more than enough other close range threats that long range scatter bikes are all I need.

Plus, I don't think the role of jetbikes have changed as much as people make it out to be, in that bikes are still objective grabbers. Having scatter lasers now just allows them to contribute a little more to the battle. I will happily face an opponent who deploys 27+ jetbikes on me (which I did the other day and wound up tabling him).

Ratius wrote:Guys whats your views via math hammer of shuirken cannons VS scatterlasers this release?
Say taking a 3 man War Walker unit maxed with both loadsouts.
Obviously scats have 12" more range and an extra shot but does bladestorm outweigh this?
Has/can anyone run a math hammer VS TEQ/MEQ etc?

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/647751.page
I just posted a pretty exhaustive break down of damage profiles of both weapons against pretty much every target you could want. Good timing.

Rypher wrote:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

I would take both. You won't be able to keep everything at 36", some of the bikes are going to need to get closer, or are going to get cornered.
Having a little bit of blade storm along with the rest of the bikes are longer range isn't a bad thing.
I think I'll do a 2:1 mix in the wind riders (2 scatter units, 1 shur-cannon unit) and a 1:1 mix in other detachments.

It does depend on what you want the list to do or what you find lacking. I still think scatters are the superior option, especially with placement. My current lists only run 3x3 jetbikes, all with scatters. They're there for objectives late game and adding some firepower to my army. But I have more than enough other close range threats that long range scatter bikes are all I need.

Plus, I don't think the role of jetbikes have changed as much as people make it out to be, in that bikes are still objective grabbers. Having scatter lasers now just allows them to contribute a little more to the battle. I will happily face an opponent who deploys 27+ jetbikes on me (which I did the other day and wound up tabling him).

I actually entirely agree. It is not hard to table a ~30 scat pack army if you have a guaranteed alpha strike list. Scat pack is just another rock, hammer, scissor build that either gets tabled or tables the opponent.

This might be a little late, but I have been wracking my brains this week and can't really find a good answer.

I am most likely facing a 5 flyrant list tomorrow, although the opponent could also bring 2-3 flyrants and a barbed hierodule, at 1850 points.

I am definitely bringing a Crimson Death formation, but this is not enough if I am fighting a 5 flyrant list.

I want to bring a list that is also all comers, as I could face this same opponent in a tournament setting, but then I would be facing lots of other opponents as well.

So the options I have looked at are these:

Bastion with Dark Reapers. I think 6 reapers + exarch would be the max I could put in this and hope to get all shots off at (3 fire points facing) a flyrant. I have the option of either going with an icarus cannon for 35 points which the exarch will man so I get 2 S9 shots with skyfire at BS5 and reroll against flying. The whole unit can ignore jink. This would be great when fighting space marines as well, since if I get to intercept with the icarus, I can use the exarchs reaper launcher in the next round. Since I have hte Crimson Death formation, the other option is to bring the Comms Relay, which is 20 points and lets me reroll reserces on my Crimson Hunters which is really good. Quad Gun is not an option because it breaks with the units theme of AP3+ (so flyrant can´t take any saes). It is possible to bring an Autarch for bonus to reserve rolls, but I feel like the Autarch brings nothing else to the list.

Next option is to bring 3 squads of 3 Dark Reapers and no bastion. (Or I could bring bastion for 1 squad) I would be running 3 EML on the exarchs. The problem with these is flyrant still gets +3 armor save and 1 flyrant can take out 1 unit of 3 reapers in one round of shooting. So if he goes first he could (assuming he gets in range) use 3 flyrants to take out ALL my dark reapers and then still have 2 left over to fire at other things. I could put them in Wave Serpents, which should allow them to survive long enough for 1 round of shooting. Once they are out though, they will be dead in the next turn. The nice thing about this is getting the formation bonus which is useful against all other lists, but useless against flyers.

In an all comers list I would usually run a unit with Wraith Guard with D-Scythes, but I could downgrade to Wraithcannons and with guide have 5-6 rerollable snap shots at strength D. These would also be good against hierodule, but not as strong as the D-Scythes in an all comers setting.

I could be really boring and bring 3 wraith knights. He can't do much damage to them, and 6 shots (some with guide or prescience) would be 1-2 SD hits each round.

40 bikes is also an option, but I don't have 40 bikes, nor do I want to play that kind of list. So I am running with 9-12 bikes.

Any thoughts?

You want a Wall of Martyrs bunker, rather than a bastion (Stronghold Assault, p. 26). Take an Ammunition Dump and get to re-roll your 1's. So long as you take them [edit: your Dark Reapers] in the Aspect Host formation, you have poor-man's twin-linking (BS5 and re-rolling 1's).

If you're not playing unbound, then you have to take one of the core formations in order to unlock multiple Wraith Knights. Not sure it's worth it. Definitely take one though! Spend those ~600 points on other stuff, like a squadron of War Walkers with Scatter Lasers (they'll do work, and they're cheap, relatively speaking).

Also: Is your opponent taking 5 Flyrants because you asked him to, or because he thinks he can win? If he thinks he can win, is it because he thinks he'll table you, or are you playing missions that don't punish flyer-heavy lists?

Good luck!

DCannon4Life wrote:
You want a Wall of Martyrs bunker, rather than a bastion (Stronghold Assault, p. 26). Take an Ammunition Dump and get to re-roll your 1's. So long as you take them [edit: your Dark Reapers] in the Aspect Host formation, you have poor-man's twin-linking (BS5 and re-rolling 1's).

If you're not playing unbound, then you have to take one of the core formations in order to unlock multiple Wraith Knights. Not sure it's worth it. Definitely take one though! Spend those ~600 points on other stuff, like a squadron of War Walkers with Scatter Lasers (they'll do work, and they're cheap, relatively speaking).

Also: Is your opponent taking 5 Flyrants because you asked him to, or because he thinks he can win? If he thinks he can win, is it because he thinks he'll table you, or are you playing missions that don't punish flyer-heavy lists?

Good luck!

The Dark Reapers don't need pseudo twin-link against flyrants, as they can reroll to hit against swooping and zooming, and they have to fire snap shots anyway. For all comers that could be good though, but farseer can also prescience/guide the unit if it's really needed. What is the advantage of the Wall of Martyr over a bastion (I have the Stronghold Assault at work, but not here at home.)?

We are not playing unbound. To bring more WKs I would run a windrider host which is 532 points, then you can squeeze inn 930 points for 3 WK and still have points left over for crimson hunters. Extremely cheesy though, and lacks volume of fire.

He is bringing 5 Flyrants because he has been losing a lot lately (I can't remember seeing him win a match in a long time, as people have gotten so good at countering his list), and there is also on guy in our meta with a 40 bike eldar list, so he wanted to have a fight against an eldar player to see how 5 flyrants will work. We will not be fighting maelstrom of war, but he will have to land his flyrants to hold objectives.

Do you really need a fortification though? Just stick them in a ruin, add a Spiritseer and conceal them; instant 2+ cover (and/or 2+ armour).

Okapi wrote:
Do you really need a fortification though? Just stick them in a ruin, add a Spiritseer and conceal them; instant 2+ cover (and/or 2+ armour).

I don't need a fortification no, and dropping the bastion makes it easier to go for the formation bonus. However, the only other targets on the table in the first turn are a WK, which is best ignored, or bikes. So if I was him, I would fly the flyrants down to the reapers and hit them first. Even with a 2+ armor save, 5 flyrants can kill 8 reapers in one round of shooting on average, and that also ment I spent 70 points on a spiritseer to get it, which is 5 points away from a bareboned bastion. Bastion has the added bonus of being able to have an icarus lascannon that gets one extra shot with exarch, or the comms that can help bring in the crimson hunters in turn 2.