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Modern 'black ops' don't exist, otherwise they wouldn't be black ops
And if you're trying to be stealthy, the last thing you want is a bloody helicopter dumping tonnes of munitions in your AO.

And I don't care if you call it a 'mobile stealth' whatever, it's a heavy grav vehicle. That makes it big and slow.

Also there are only 2 rules that I can think of that represent 'outside help'. That is space marine orbital bombardment (does that even still exist?) and Imperial Guard Master of Ordnance. You made a good move by simply making them [incredibly powerful] deployable batteries. Your's are like Tarantulas but on steroids.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Not true. We see no quantifiers indicating this, only that they are both skilled in the same things, and if we include actual GW stats (because they're the closest thing we actually have to something near quantifying it) then the Scouts are actually MORE skilled.

So no, Scouts are not inferior. Yes, a Scout is not a full line Space Marine. That's because a full line Space Marine is such an elite role. As they develop into their implants, they are dedicated to the art of subterfuge and infiltration. They have just as much training as a Scion, and the genetic implantation to boot.

Space Marines are recruited at around age twelve, Scions are raised from age 6. Scions are trained until their early twenties, Scout unitl their late teens. Scout training last around three years which is the time that separates the implantation of the Black Carapace from that of the Progenoids. Scout training takes part before the black Carapace is implented. The rest is pure mathematic. Space Marines Scout are incredibly well trained, but they have almost twice less training than Scions before their first day on the field. The training of Scions and Scout is just as intensive and difficult, but one last longer than the other. The crux of both our arguments can be resumed in two opposite axiom. Mine is: humans can be better than Space Marines. Your's is humans cannot be better than Space Marines. The rest is cherry picking for the stuff we like the most and fits our agenda. More than any rules, bonus, fluff or gameplay, this design philosophy is what drives my choices when making Scions or Sisters of Battle.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Explain Ork Kommando Nobs who are even larger than a Space Marine, and still have Stealth.

They don't have power armor and are Kommando not Space Knights falling down from the sky in a hurricane of bolter fire. Space Marines can have stealth if they train for it like Raven Guards and successors, but they have to put the time and the effort, probably more than anybody else to achieve such a level of expertise.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Explain why Grots don't have stealth, despite being smaller and lighter.
Explain how you wear exactly the same armour as a Scout, bulkier in fact, with all your power packs, wrist-devices, and suchlike, and should get Stealth.

Grots aren't trained they are bullied and traumatised, used as a living carpet by ruthless orks who will kill and release hungry squig hounds at the first sign of weakness from their slaves. If grots were fighting alone, bet your ass they would have stealth. The little thing survive by being stealthy. Hell, in my Grotvolution fancex that you can find a on the same page, all my grots have stealth (and a special rule called puny which makes them take 1/2 place in transports). Those who get caught at the wrong time end up on the battlefield with orks.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Weight can't be that much of a concern if Kommandos have it, nor can size. Orks smell more than Astartes too. So, how come Kommandos get Stealth then?

Regular orks are smaller and lighter than Space Marines. Regular orks are barely taller than normal humans because of their posture. They aren't much stronger, but they are tougher. As for smell, orks do stink, but they smell like big filthy animals. They are frequently compared to grox (a big reptile). In most situation, that's not a particularly stricking smell. Space Marines smell has been described as chemical due to all the combat stimulant their body generates when engaged in combat. They smell like hospitals or worst toxic gas. These are sharper smells that are easy to recognise. That's why Loken could be smell from outside a closed room with a working amoniac press working inside it. He smelled that strongly after a simple training session.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Or, perhaps GW feels that Stealth isn't in their MO, or they can buy camo-cloaks to make them compare to the actually gifted and skilled Kommando Orks. However, because we can infer that, due to training and the similar MOs, Scions would also lack Stealth.

Or perhaps GW was considering this from a fluff angle, Scouts aren't experience specialist, they are tactical marines on training. Or perhaps they didn't put it because scouts would cost too much by being given stealth (it does cost a point or two). What would be the point of having them cost as much as Tactical Marines when they are supposed to be worse by the fluff? Maybe they think that Space Marines being so discrete is a bit weird considering they are so big and heavy? Maybe they thought orks having a 6+ save would benefit from a boost to their cover save for gameplay reason, while Scout Space Marines have the same toughness, better moral and better armor? There is a number of valid reasons for them not to have it beside this one.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

So you're picking and choosing parts of Scion lore, just like me picking and choosing that now all Space Marines go to war on Bikes.

You're changing the Scions from what they are laid out to be into something else. You say your argument is supported by fluff, but you're practically rewriting it into your own fan-lore.
What GW says is not what you're saying, and GW is the official source of canon by which I am measuring Scions.

I'm saying my argument is supported by my fluff (which is heavily inspired by GW, but still different). If you want to rewrite the Black Templar Space Marine Codex (for example) as biker marines because they are knights and knights should have steeds, give them jousting Space Marines and even the option for some sort of giant mechanical horse that breaths flame for their HQ choice, that's in your right. Some will like it, other will be indifferent and others will hate it. Calling "not GW vision" isn't an argument to love it or not. The quality of such a work, in my opinion, should be based on its own merit. I do not hesitate to change or completly rework a poorly developped and minor faction of the Imperium if I think it's preferable. I did it twice before this fandex, the first one for the Lost and Damned and again for the Sisters of Battle and I will do even "worse". I will soon start to work on completly new xeno species never mentionned in any part of the lore of 40K so far because I think it will be fun.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Yes, but I think more people are critiquing the inclusion of Stealth rather than wanting to keep it in.

At the end of the day, it's your codex. None of us will probably play against it. But if you want feedback, which is what we're giving you, then just saying "Nah, not changing it" isn't a positive response.

I do appreciate your feedback, even if my response is "no, I will not change that". I did change a lot of stuff in this codex so far: the ballistic skill of 6 on the Tempestor Prime, the composition, weapons and skills of the Insidias Scions, the price and the load out of the Victory Prime, the name, the equipment anf the price of the Venator Prime, the price of the Krassus Brothers, etc. I do think that part of the game is defending my choices in the first place too. There is a few things I will not change at all in this fandex. I will not remove stealth, I will not lower the initiative of certain Scion to 3, I will not change the stats of the Hot-Shot Lasgun, I will not remove the Weapon Master Special Rules, Commissars will have the option to give orders. How could you know? Well on that point you would have had to ask for changes to be made and received a negative answer. I did thought about replacing the special rule Stealth for something like Ambush who would give the stealth benefit only when a unit is immobile, but it would have been mostly useless. I could also have given it through a formation/doctrine that would give Scout/infiltrate + Stealth Vs a Deep Strike, but then wouldn't that just be the same thing? I do know why someone would prefer that over just leaving stealth as it is. Don't worry either, once my play testing is over, I will mention your personnal contribution (and that of kirotheavenger) and support in the designer notes as you don't feel cheated out of your time and efforts which were very appreciated. I prefer my fandex right now as it would have been should have nobody paid attention to it and my original vision remained unchanged.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 kirotheavenger wrote:
Modern 'black ops' don't exist, otherwise they wouldn't be black ops
And if you're trying to be stealthy, the last thing you want is a bloody helicopter dumping tonnes of munitions in your AO.

And I don't care if you call it a 'mobile stealth' whatever, it's a heavy grav vehicle. That makes it big and slow.

Also there are only 2 rules that I can think of that represent 'outside help'. That is space marine orbital bombardment (does that even still exist?) and Imperial Guard Master of Ordnance. You made a good move by simply making them [incredibly powerful] deployable batteries. Your's are like Tarantulas but on steroids.

Grey Knights used to be able to "buy" orbital bombardment in their first codex too. It's very frustrating to fight an enemy with heavy support that you can't destroy.

The Mobile Shield Generator isn't that big. It would be a bit larger than an armored sentinel (it's a three place vehicle instead of two, both of them are built in height). It would as the heavy rule because it's slow moving. I don't want a mobile shield generator that can zip around the battlefield. It has Deep Strike because it's small enough to be dropped from a transport plane much like the Clypeus Mobile Battery. It makes sense for a group of elite soldiers fighting behind enemy lines to possess heavier assets that can be deployed via airborne drops.

BTW, would it be useful if I was to make a description of how the models would look like if they were in production? I did it for my Lost and Damned fandex, would it help you visualise some stuff and thus better judge some rules or have a better sense of how the force would look like?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
NOTA BENE

After some further reflection on the subject, I finally decided to remove the Stealth Special Rule from the Tempestus, Aer, Ignis and Armis Scions. The Stealth Special rule can still be optained via the Tempestus Dagger Formation which allows to exchange Deep Strike for Scout and Stealth. Insidias Scions retained the Stealth Special Rule. I wanted the Stealth special rule in conjunction with Deep Strike to represent the most emblematic attack of the Scions: a Stealth drop on enemy position to take out vital targets before a grand assault as can be found in the story the Dagger and the Chainsword. Infiltration and Scout Special Rules don't really explain how the unit infiltrated or got ahead of the main forces. It could be by various ways including being droped from the sky a bit before the battle started. Thus, they can also represent a Stealth Drop in addition to other forms of infiltration that the Scions could also perform like outflanking discreetly an enemy force. Infiltration and Stealth are two excellent Special Rules, better than Deep Strike alone. I thus decided to make the trade between Deep Strike Vs Scout (not as good as Infiltration) and Stealth.

I'd just like to know why the Victory Prime has one random hellstrike missile somewhere.
And, I think because it should be based on the Vulture STC, it should not have the option for door guns.
However, the vulture also has an (unupgradeable) heavy bolter in the nose, and 4 wing sponsons total.
However I guess you could have it based on the Valkyrie STC like the vendetta is, explaining that the transport capacity is entirely taken up by the generators for all those lasers. But then it probably shouldn't have vector dancer as default.

 kirotheavenger wrote:
I'd just like to know why the Victory Prime has one random hellstrike missile somewhere.
And, I think because it should be based on the Vulture STC, it should not have the option for door guns.
However, the vulture also has an (unupgradeable) heavy bolter in the nose, and 4 wing sponsons total.
However I guess you could have it based on the Valkyrie STC like the vendetta is, explaining that the transport capacity is entirely taken up by the generators for all those lasers. But then it probably shouldn't have vector dancer as default.

The description of the Victory Prime makes it based on the Valkyrie STC. Its transport capacity has been removed completly to make it more maneuvrable and it's slightly less armored which explains the Vector Dancing ability. In terms of numbers of guns, it has almost the same firepower than a Vendetta. Her canons are a little bit better overall (much better against infantry and very light vehicle, but much shorter range and much worse against heavy tanks), but she has the same numbers. Fully upgraded, a Victory has five guns, two on each wings and one on the nose. Without Vector Dancer, which significantly more maneuvrable, the Victory Prime would be a worse version of the Vendetta. I want it about just as good, but in a different area. One still has a transport capacity, more armor and anti-tank weapons while the other is more maneuvrable and design to kill infantry and light vehicle, especially other fliers. I removed the Hellstrike Missile (which would have been in the ventral section of the Victory, where the transport section used to be) to keep things balanced at your suggestion.

epronovost wrote:

 kirotheavenger wrote:
I'd just like to know why the Victory Prime has one random hellstrike missile somewhere.
And, I think because it should be based on the Vulture STC, it should not have the option for door guns.
However, the vulture also has an (unupgradeable) heavy bolter in the nose, and 4 wing sponsons total.
However I guess you could have it based on the Valkyrie STC like the vendetta is, explaining that the transport capacity is entirely taken up by the generators for all those lasers. But then it probably shouldn't have vector dancer as default.

The description of the Victory Prime makes it based on the Valkyrie STC. Its transport capacity has been removed completly to make it more maneuvrable and it's slightly less armored which explains the Vector Dancing ability. In terms of numbers of guns, it has almost the same firepower than a Vendetta. Her canons are a little bit better overall (much better against infantry and very light vehicle, but much shorter range and much worse against heavy tanks), but she has the same numbers. Fully upgraded, a Victory has five guns, two on each wings and one on the nose. Without Vector Dancer, which significantly more maneuvrable, the Victory Prime would be a worse version of the Vendetta. I want it about just as good, but in a different area. One still has a transport capacity, more armor and anti-tank weapons while the other is more maneuvrable and design to kill infantry and light vehicle, especially other fliers. I removed the Hellstrike Missile (which would have been in the ventral section of the Victory, where the transport section used to be) to keep things balanced at your suggestion.

The victory has significantly more firepower than the Vendetta with the door guns. And it can have the exact same guns, just more of them, if you want to shoot tanks.
I also don't see how you would fit a hellstrike missile where the crew used to be. I believe it's 3 hellstrikes to a hardpoint.
I think from a backstory it would make sense as a 'Vulture Prime' of sorts rather than a valkyrie modification. But I guess a valkyrie modification makes sense if you want to use that. Not a fan of the door guns though, at least not the non-heavy bolter ones.

Victory Prime

Victory Prime: BS: 4, Armor: F: 11, S: 11, R: 10, HP: 3 pts: 160 per model
equipment: 3 Twin-Linked Hotshot Multilaser

Special Rule: Flier, Hover, Vector Dancing, Preferred Enemy (fliers)

Unit Composition: 1 (flier)

Option:

all Twin-Linked Hotshot Multilaser can be replaced for Twin-Linked Lascanon for (15 pts)

can take two extra Heavy Bolter for (20 pts), Hot-Shot Multilaser for (40 pts) or Lascanon for (40 pts)

can take upgrades in the Armory of the Progenium[/spoiler]


Vendetta Prime

Vendetta Prime: BS: 4, Armor: F: 12, S: 12, R: 10, HP: 3 pts: 170 per model
equipment: 3 Hull Mounted Twin-Linked Lascanon, Adaptive armor

Special Rule: Flier, Hover, Transport, Grav Chute Insertion

Grav Chute Insertion: Valkyrie Prime are equipped with the necessary system to drop troops via Grav-Chute should they be flying at high altitude or high speed. Should the player want to disembark a unit in a Valkyrie who moved faster than Combat Speed or who isn't hovering, select a point over which the Valkyrie passed and place a counter there and deploy the unit there like if it had used Deep Strike even if she normally can't. Scatter the unit normally.

Transport Capacity: 6 Models

Access Point: One at the rear

Fire Point: None

Option:

can take two additional hull mounted Heavy Bolter for (20 pts)

can take upgrades in the Armory of the Progenium

Since I got worried that I might have made a type somewhere, I copy paste the rules for both vehicle here. The Vendetta has three twin-linke lascanon base. The Victory has Three Twin-Linked Hot-Shot Multilaser. Obiously the Lascanon has far more strength (3) and range 18'. The Victory has far more fire rate (9 shot vs 3) with an equal AP. Both have the option for two extra weapons. One is limited to heavy bolter while the other one has more option. I think I will remove the option for more Hot-Shot Multilaser and lascanon. It's a bit much and it gets far too pricey for such a fragile aircraft.

Your Victory Prime can be upgraded to exchange it's HS-multilasers for lascannons. Turning it into a lighter, more manueverable Vendetta.
But even with just the HS-multilasers, vector dancer can make it a very effective at getting the side armour of vehicles.
Going 36'' beside a vehicle then turning in towards it can cover most of the table if you want it to.

 kirotheavenger wrote:
Your Victory Prime can be upgraded to exchange it's HS-multilasers for lascannons. Turning it into a lighter, more manueverable Vendetta.
But even with just the HS-multilasers, vector dancer can make it a very effective at getting the side armour of vehicles.
Going 36'' beside a vehicle then turning in towards it can cover most of the table if you want it to.

Yes getting side armor with Vector Dancer is relatively easy. I mostly wanted to keep the option to swap the HS-multilasers for Lascanon because many vehicule do have excellent side armor (if you got more than 11, those shots are pretty wasted) and especially to fight against filers with high armor like Helldrakes, Space Marines one, other Valkyrie or Vendetta, Necron fliers. HS-multilasers are mostly useless against them unless you can get in the rear of those vehicule which as easy in my opinion than on a ground vehicule. The Victory Prime is supposed to be a "flier hunter" vehicle. Top class fighter aircraft should have option for weapons with more than S6 precisely for this reason. In that case, it doesn't give it more raw fire power, but more maneuvrability, but it comes at a cost. It has lower armor and no transport capability.