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 Marmatag wrote:

 gummyofallbears wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

gungo wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:


Electrodisplacement is not overpowered for turn 1 charge. It has a very basic counter play and isn't at all guaranteed.

You keep saying this as of somehow your opinion is a fact and bottom line is you are flat out wrong. Electrodisplacement has been extensively tested and it's even more broken then any other form of assault from deepstrike because the player dictates which unit is assaulting first turn not a very controlled formation that can never have any ICs attached. The absolute worst assault lists in game now have little concern about screening units, movement or charge ranges becuase they can magically appear anywhere they please with little concern. Even if lib council wasn't a garaunteed thing that it is electrodisplacement would still be utterly broken. There are a handful of events that allow it and it's still a dominant build.

Okay so, 1, you have to generate the power, 2, you have to manifest it, and 3, you have to not get denied. Right there, 3 things can go wrong before you can even pick up a model. Like it or not, Deny the Witch is counter play. A lib council does make that difficult but the possibility exists. Meanwhile, there is NO counter play for deep strike charge. None. You just cross your fingers and hope.

Electrodisplacement is strong, but not exclusively because of turn 1 charging.

Can you share extensive testing results please? Maybe i'm looking in the wrong spots

bubblewrapping is way better counterplay to deepstrikers than hoping for some awesome dice rolls on DtW

that's a fair point but again that's not an option to people with low model counts.

Specifically Eldar Wraithknight Spam, or just Eldar?
Hide units in Reserve, laugh at the first turn charges then shoot the melee units fershnickered.

 Bobthehero wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

Lets also keep in mind not every shooting army is actually good either. IG gunlines arent exactly making anyone nervous for example.

Correct, but they's extremely boring to play against, and IMHO also to play with. If gun lines based lists are possible and at least viable (if not good or even overpowered) that means a bad game design

Oh will you just deal with it, I for one love gunlines be it to play with or agaisnt, everything should be roughly equally playable (even if assault is dumb, but eeeeeeeeh), it should Warhammer 40k, not Warhammer 40k Blackie edition, that'd be terrible.

It should be an edition in which every army has the same level, the actual 40k at competitive levels is extremely terrible. A single army that can assault turn one with several units is not a threat, gen cult are mid tiers at most. The skyhammer is broken and it should never existed, we all agree about that, but several space marines gimmicks should never existed (in 40k blackie edition generic SM wouldn't exist )

Gun lines with only shooty units are terribly boring, if I play a list with 200 orks on foot it would be the same and the fact that this option isn't viable means a good game design actually. For the same reason a list with only static units that do nothing than shooting the entire game is a bad game design IMHO. Even AM has transports, chimera, taurox and flyers but also tarpit units like fearless blobs.

But blackie. Gunlines within the top level armies are the nastiest for dealing with DS chargers Tau Interceptor and Eldar speed. But both armies are generic gun lines. One just tries to blow you off the table in 3 turns and the other shhot crap out of you for 4 turns while staying out of range/LoS then boost on objectives at the end.

I feel this thing is that

First turn charge is the Rock to my scissors so it must be bad

I think we're getting to the point where maneuvering etc is kind of an after thought. Why not just roll dice and use an abstract battle system at this point?

The AM I play has no Chimera, Tauroxes, flyers with transports or fearless blobs.

Your list? Or your opponent?

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

gungo wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:


Electrodisplacement is not overpowered for turn 1 charge. It has a very basic counter play and isn't at all guaranteed.

You keep saying this as of somehow your opinion is a fact and bottom line is you are flat out wrong. Electrodisplacement has been extensively tested and it's even more broken then any other form of assault from deepstrike because the player dictates which unit is assaulting first turn not a very controlled formation that can never have any ICs attached. The absolute worst assault lists in game now have little concern about screening units, movement or charge ranges becuase they can magically appear anywhere they please with little concern. Even if lib council wasn't a garaunteed thing that it is electrodisplacement would still be utterly broken. There are a handful of events that allow it and it's still a dominant build.

Okay so, 1, you have to generate the power, 2, you have to manifest it, and 3, you have to not get denied. Right there, 3 things can go wrong before you can even pick up a model. Like it or not, Deny the Witch is counter play. A lib council does make that difficult but the possibility exists. Meanwhile, there is NO counter play for deep strike charge. None. You just cross your fingers and hope.

Electrodisplacement is strong, but not exclusively because of turn 1 charging.

Can you share extensive testing results please? Maybe i'm looking in the wrong spots

Well, actually a Deep Striking charging unit has plenty of counter play just using those same criteria you have vs Electrodisplacement.

1) You have to arrive from reserves. 1/3 chance of failing to come in. And can't happen turn 1 with most armies anyway.

2) Interceptor exists which would allow you to shoot them before they charge, and then you also get overwatch on top of that. Shooty focused factions like Tau especially have a lot of Interceptor.

3) You're still dealing with the randomness of your 2D6 scatter for the Deep Strike and then the 2D6 for assault distance.

1) This is not true in general. Drop pods, genestealers, outflank, infiltrate. You know this.
2) Overwatch is less likely to be successful than denying the witch. unless you're prepared to change your stance on DTW... And interceptor is pretty uncommon in most armies.
3) Not in all cases see 1

An ED charge requires much more to get going

1. Generate the power
2. have a means to get a unit within charge range on your turn 1 that you can ED with
3. manifest the power
4. Don't get denied!
5+ all the stuff you used as an argument against other charges.

so...

In a general sense, first turn charges are bad. I am not a fan of them. If everything that charges could reliably charge on turn 1, what you'd see is each army being effectively 100% melee, or all melee on the table with anything shooty held in reserve, and the turn after it touches the table, it would be completely blown off of said table by another wicked charge.

The whole meta game of melee vs ranged, is that ranged try to keep out of melee, and melee try to get close enough without dying. turn 1 charges completely invalidate that metagame.

if you want to play a melee game play sigmar.

Marmatag, in practice you have over 95% chance to get the power and you're casting and not being denied 95% every single turn.

So no, it's not like the opponent gets to react, in any reasonable way.

 Marmatag wrote:
The whole meta game of melee vs ranged, is that ranged try to keep out of melee, and melee try to get close enough without dying. turn 1 charges completely invalidate that metagame.

That is an extremely weak argument. Many people in this thread have explained that armies that rely heavily on shooting can castle up, blob up, or fortification up and shoot all your gak off the table turn one. The best example of this is Tau and Renegades who can completely remove anything on your side of the table. If you wanted to keep things balanced in the current meta, you'd need to create the possibility for turn one assault heavy armies that can do the same like GSC or marines charging out of drop pods or some gak I think can happen. That is what they did. There was an imbalance and they tried to balance it back.

The complaint shouldn't be that this is now possible, it should be "how did we get even get here?" There isn't a problem with them trying to balance the current scales, there's a problem with the freakin scales. Argue one way or the other but until the mechanics are fixed you're going to get "balance" fixes like this.

 Marmatag wrote:
if you want to play a melee game play sigmar.

I can't wait for 8th.

"The whole meta game of melee vs ranged, is that ranged try to keep out of melee, and melee try to get close enough without dying. turn 1 charges completely invalidate that metagame. "

So does getting shot off the table in two turns.

Martel732 wrote:
"The whole meta game of melee vs ranged, is that ranged try to keep out of melee, and melee try to get close enough without dying. turn 1 charges completely invalidate that metagame. "

So does getting shot off the table in two turns.

The bigger problem is mobility of shooting units. Specifically, Eldar and Tau will never be caught in melee because they move further than any melee unit. Nothing should be able to move more than 6" and fire all its weapons accurately. Relentless should allow a 6" move and fire at full ballistic skill, or move maximum distance and fire with reduced ballistic skill, for instance.

It should be somewhat difficult to get into melee range - which it is in some cases - versus flat out impossible, which it is in others.

Turn 1 charges are the exact same problem we have now, but in the opposite direction. Are you legitimately interested in balance, or just out for your agenda?

For reference, most of my army is melee. I need psychic powers, deep strike, and SUPER tanky units to be viable. And of course, since I want to win, I ally in SM for centurion devastators, which are also podded.

 Bobthehero wrote:
The AM I play has no Chimera, Tauroxes, flyers with transports or fearless blobs.

You play krieg? They're not even part of the GW catalogue to be honest.... AM may not be ultracompetitive but it has several options, if you don't want to use them that's your choice. If you play the ork dread mob and complain about not being competitive while you could add bikes, meganobz, mek gunz.. it's your choice and you have to accept that.

Those units that can charge turn 1 are only a few, Gen cult's ones may not even roll for that ability and anything that starts in the opponent's deployed zone can't reach combat turn 1 due to the distance. Are those genestealers really that scary?

The current 40k is too shooty oriented as the spam of mid strenght shots is extremely easy, and anything that counters this issue is welcome. If a scary army for gunlines makes those static lists think of some measures to counter the eventual charge it's something good for the entire game imho.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Marmatag wrote:


turn 1 charges completely invalidate that metagame.

The actual metagame is awful, it needs a lot of changes. The core rules are ok imho, but several codexes need a total rewrite, especially the most competitive ones. It's not ok that a troop unit with its min size has 12 S6 shots with bs4.

The game is Rock, Paper, Scissors.

Melee beats Elite Shooting
Elite Shooting beats Cheap Masses
Cheap Masses beat Melee

For the past two editions Elite Shooting has laughed at both Cheap Masses and Melee and now that Melee has regained it's place in the circle of hate the Elite Shooting players are crying foul.
Go figure.

There's nothing Krieg can field that will slow down a fast melee unit

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
The game is Rock, Paper, Scissors.

Melee beats Elite Shooting
Elite Shooting beats Cheap Masses
Cheap Masses beat Melee

For the past two editions Elite Shooting has laughed at both Cheap Masses and Melee and now that Melee has regained it's place in the circle of hate the Elite Shooting players are crying foul.
Go figure.

Many armies can't do cheap masses to begin with.

And Instant Melee beats all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Bobthehero wrote:
There's nothing Krieg can field that will slow down a fast melee unit

Dude, krieg is not even a real 40K army, will you please just let it go.

Your specialist FW army is just for fun, you don't have to play the same points as your opponent or anything, it's made for narrative games only.

fw is illegal ©

This is getting insane now. Forgeworld lists are legal.

"And Instant Melee beats all."

It depends on how hard it punches.

Krieg is a very real army and it should be not neglected. And I certainly have to play the same amount of points as my opponent. You'll never shut me up about wanting Krieg armies to be good.

FW armies are generally weaker than their Codex equivalents

FW lists are fluffy and a lot of fun to play..

But if you want to play effectively you play Codex

 Bobthehero wrote:
Krieg is a very real army and it should be neglected. And I certainly have to play the same amount of points as my opponent. You'll never shut me up about wanting Krieg armies to be good.

Do you mean "not be neglected"?

I imagine so.

Yeah, typing on my phone, sorry.

morgoth wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
The game is Rock, Paper, Scissors.

Melee beats Elite Shooting
Elite Shooting beats Cheap Masses
Cheap Masses beat Melee

For the past two editions Elite Shooting has laughed at both Cheap Masses and Melee and now that Melee has regained it's place in the circle of hate the Elite Shooting players are crying foul.
Go figure.

Many armies can't do cheap masses to begin with.

And Instant Melee beats all.

Many armies can't do Melee or Elite Shooting. Going to try and tell me Ogryns are going to outplay their equal in points against TWC, MCs or even regular Space Marines? Maybe that Nids or Space Wolves can honesly outmatch Tau or Eldar at Elite Shooting?
Most armies do one thing really well, some do two, none can produce a list that does all three, very few can produce a list that can manage two.

Instant Melee does not beat all and not all instant Melee is the same or even equal.

*My usual list for Space Wolves laugh their heads off at GSC Cult Ambush, so can the average Tyranid, Grey Knight, Ork and Astra Militarum army.
*Skyhammer can punk my Wolves list and Grey Knights but GSC, Tyranids, Orks, AM, Tau, Eldar and anything that can screw with Reserve Rolls can all beat Skyhammer.
*Wulfen boosted Space Wolves can be thwarted by any kind of null deployment, any army that can layer up expendables, impassable terrain, anything that can block them, be it because it's expendable, resiliant or downright meaner.
*Not many Deathstars have first turn charges but those that do are banking on layers of luck, if any one of those layers crumbles their plan crumbles with it.

Melee armies have been picking scraps for the past two editions, now things have evened out and they're hungry.


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 NivlacSupreme wrote:
This is getting insane now. Forgeworld lists are legal.

Forgeworld lists are tame compared to what some armies can put down without leaving the GW product line.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 NivlacSupreme wrote:
This is getting insane now. Forgeworld lists are legal.

Forgeworld lists are tame compared to what some armies can put down without leaving the GW product line.

Obviously this doesn´t count when you look at eldar palehost with multiple Skatach WK.

 rawne2510 wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 NivlacSupreme wrote:
This is getting insane now. Forgeworld lists are legal.

Forgeworld lists are tame compared to what some armies can put down without leaving the GW product line.

Obviously this doesn´t count when you look at eldar palehost with multiple Skatach WK.

How are Skatach WK worse than D-WK exactly?

I'm interested to hear this as well.

With the flamestorm template the number of models/units that that model can smash. With the Multiple Melta shot weapons a higher chance to damage vehicles than a 1 shot D weapon.

Their higher mobility and ability to jump out of combat if being bogged down.

Pretty good for a 20 point upgrade, wonder why they don't show so much at tournaments?