Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
Ceann wrote:They did not add these statements for fun.
Did I say anything about being added for fun? Do you know the difference between an explanation and an instruction/directive?
Ceann wrote:We aren't ignoring page 13.
Sure seems like you want to because, "I am also quite sure that the movement section knows more about movement than page 13", indicates that anything in the Movement Phase can override anything on page 13.
Ceann wrote:You are ignoring "for starters we will explain Infantry"
And "This represents most creatures moving at a reasonable pace"
And "In your turn, you can move any of your units – all of them if you wish – up to their maximum movement distance."
And "Vehicles, Jump units, Bikes and certain other units move in different ways to represent their greater mobility, these will be discussed in full detail later in the book, in the Unit Types section."
For directions on how far I can move a model, yes, because they do not carry an instruction or a directive regarding anything. They provide an explanation as to certain purposes, but that is as far as it goes.
Does it tell you to look up in the unit type for distances? No.
Does it tell you to that other unit types may move at a different rate than Infantry? No.
Are methods and distances synonymous? No.
Are there are there other maximum distances spoken of in the Movement Phase? Yes. This is in regards to Terrain.
Can different methods of moving address Terrain? Yes. See Jet Packs for an example.
Are any other distance besides the base 6" and movement of Difficult Terrain mentioned in the Movement Phase? No.
Ceann wrote:If they were advanced rules as you claim, then the statement about movement distance is irrelevant and they would move whatever distance is claimed by virtue of being an advanced rule, the statement would be unnecessary, yet it is included and bold.
Or they are aware of it. There are many situations where examples and explanations provide references to advanced rules. They do not go over them there, because they are not part of the basic rules. Their instructions are provided in the advanced rules provided by Unit Type and/or Special Rules.
Ceann wrote:We were told they would explain Infantry, they are now explaining Infantry models. This doesn't mean that an Infantry models movement is the standard.
If it was, again as you claim, then it would be state "all models" yet it doesn't, it also wouldn't state that it represents "most" which it does.
The explaining of Infantry and "models move 6" are directly connected to each other. Your point only holds true by discarding that connection.
Can you provide a rule that is standard to Infantry that is not a basic rule?
Ceann wrote:There is no "standard" for shooting, the shooting phase lines out the sequence, we follow the sequence.
There is no "standard" for assaulting, the assault phase lines out the sequence, we follow the sequence.
There is no "standard" for the psychic phase, we follow the sequence.
Those sure sound like standards to me. And there are unit types which override every single one of those, except for the Psychic Phase. But the Psychic Phase requires the model to have at least one Special Rule to operate, so...
If you mean there is no stated "standard unit type" being presented for those three phases, you are correct. So what? Are Infantry the standard for basic rules or not? Their own rules state they follow all of them, so they are the standard in that manner. Not everything has to be as spelled out in every paragraph.
Ceann wrote:But for some reason for movement you have this bizarre idea that it does possess a single numerical standard that nothing else does. Instead of just following the sequence for movement.
All movement values fit into the sequence of moving, just like all weapon profiles fit into the sequence of shooting or assaulting.
The Shooting Sequence tells you "All weapons have a maximum range, which is the furthest distance they can shoot. A weapon must be in range of the target unit to shoot.".
Movement Distance says, "Models move up to 6 in the Movement Phase".
It does not state, "models may move up to the 6" or the movement listed in their unit type," (your claim) or "a basic move for any model... is to move forward a number of inches up to their Movement characteristic" (Fantasy Battles, 8th Edition).
Note the differences?
Ceann wrote:Your assumption falls out of line with the phase and sequence standards set by all of the other phases.
My interpretation does not, because I realize they are explaining Infantry models, not a standard.
My interpretation follows the written words as they pertain to the instructions provided. You are taking explanations and using them as instructions.
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
Ceann wrote:They did not add these statements for fun.
Did I say anything about being added for fun? Do you know the difference between an explanation and an instruction/directive?
Ceann wrote:We aren't ignoring page 13.
Sure seems like you want to because, "I am also quite sure that the movement section knows more about movement than page 13", indicates that anything in the Movement Phase can override anything on page 13.
Ceann wrote:You are ignoring "for starters we will explain Infantry"
And "This represents most creatures moving at a reasonable pace"
And "In your turn, you can move any of your units – all of them if you wish – up to their maximum movement distance."
And "Vehicles, Jump units, Bikes and certain other units move in different ways to represent their greater mobility, these will be discussed in full detail later in the book, in the Unit Types section."
For directions on how far I can move a model, yes, because they do not carry an instruction or a directive regarding anything. They provide an explanation as to certain purposes, but that is as far as it goes.
Does it tell you to look up in the unit type for distances? No.
Does it tell you to that other unit types may move at a different rate than Infantry? No.
Are methods and distances synonymous? No.
Are there are there other maximum distances spoken of in the Movement Phase? Yes. This is in regards to Terrain.
Can different methods of moving address Terrain? Yes. See Jet Packs for an example.
Are any other distance besides the base 6" and movement of Difficult Terrain mentioned in the Movement Phase? No.
Ceann wrote:If they were advanced rules as you claim, then the statement about movement distance is irrelevant and they would move whatever distance is claimed by virtue of being an advanced rule, the statement would be unnecessary, yet it is included and bold.
Or they are aware of it. There are many situations where examples and explanations provide references to advanced rules. They do not go over them there, because they are not part of the basic rules. Their instructions are provided in the advanced rules provided by Unit Type and/or Special Rules.
Ceann wrote:We were told they would explain Infantry, they are now explaining Infantry models. This doesn't mean that an Infantry models movement is the standard.
If it was, again as you claim, then it would be state "all models" yet it doesn't, it also wouldn't state that it represents "most" which it does.
The explaining of Infantry and "models move 6" are directly connected to each other. Your point only holds true by discarding that connection.
Can you provide a rule that is standard to Infantry that is not a basic rule?
Ceann wrote:There is no "standard" for shooting, the shooting phase lines out the sequence, we follow the sequence.
There is no "standard" for assaulting, the assault phase lines out the sequence, we follow the sequence.
There is no "standard" for the psychic phase, we follow the sequence.
Those sure sound like standards to me. And there are unit types which override every single one of those, except for the Psychic Phase. But the Psychic Phase requires the model to have at least one Special Rule to operate, so...
If you mean there is no stated "standard unit type" being presented for those three phases, you are correct. So what? Are Infantry the standard for basic rules or not? Their own rules state they follow all of them, so they are the standard in that manner. Not everything has to be as spelled out in every paragraph.
Ceann wrote:But for some reason for movement you have this bizarre idea that it does possess a single numerical standard that nothing else does. Instead of just following the sequence for movement.
All movement values fit into the sequence of moving, just like all weapon profiles fit into the sequence of shooting or assaulting.
The Shooting Sequence tells you "All weapons have a maximum range, which is the furthest distance they can shoot. A weapon must be in range of the target unit to shoot.".
Movement Distance says, "Models move up to 6 in the Movement Phase".
It does not state, "models may move up to the 6" or the movement listed in their unit type," (your claim) or "a basic move for any model... is to move forward a number of inches up to their Movement characteristic" (Fantasy Battles, 8th Edition).
Note the differences?
Ceann wrote:Your assumption falls out of line with the phase and sequence standards set by all of the other phases.
My interpretation does not, because I realize they are explaining Infantry models, not a standard.
My interpretation follows the written words as they pertain to the instructions provided. You are taking explanations and using them as instructions.
I do know the difference. I also know the difference between the rules for a unit type and the basic rules.
We were told we were going to be explained Infantry and we have been explained Infantry.
You can't lean on page 13 because there is no basic vs basic precedence.
Models move up to 6" is INVALIDATED as a standard by "This represents most creatures"
If it doesn't represent ALL, then it isn't the standard.
The models move statement is invalided twice, be being called an explanation prior to being explained and having stated "it represents most".
My calvary is just one of the models not represented by "most". It's 12" movement is the maximum movement it has.
Just like a laspistol has a maximum range different from a lasgun.
These two statements seem a lot more similiar than your "models move up to 6".
Notice they both state ALL, does "models move up to 6" state all? Nope. 100% Nope.
In your turn, you can move any of your units – all of them if you wish – up to their maximum movement distance. All weapons have a maximum range, which is the furthest distance they can shoot
Note the differences?
Infantry have no innate special rules, so they only use the basic rules.
The issue is that you wish for the basic rules to have preset values, which they dont.
The basic rules are the phases and the sequences. Special rules break rules of phases and sequences and infantry have none of those.
You are falsely attributing "advanced" rules based on the basic rules of other unit types instead the inherent special rules they have.
If we took a Beast unit and took away Fleet from it, then it would follow all the basic rules exactly like an Infantry model would.
It would move the same "up to its maximum value" it would shoot the same, assault the same, have morale the same.
"Models move up to 6" in the Movement phase. This represents most creatures moving at a reasonable pace"
AKA "Most models move at a reasonable pace, up to 6" in the movement phase"
Most is not a standard.
All is a standard.
These are standards.
In your turn, you can move any of your units – all of them if you wish – up to their maximum movement distance. All weapons have a maximum range, which is the furthest distance they can shoot
This is not.
"Models move up to 6" in the Movement phase. This represents most creatures moving at a reasonable pace"
Ex. From Shooting...
Weapon - Maximum Range
Laspistol - 12"
Boltgun - 24"
Autocannon - 48"
Would compare to....
Movement - Maximum Range
Infantry - 6"
Calvary - 12"
Beast - 12"
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2017/04/29 23:09:23
2017/04/29 23:04:25
Subject: Re:Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves
Ceann wrote: I do know the difference. I also know the difference between the rules for a unit type and the basic rules.
But aren't you the one saying that unit type rules are basic rules?
Ceann wrote: We were told we were going to be explained Infantry and we have been explained Infantry.
You can't lean on page 13 because there is no basic vs basic precedence.
There actually is.
Ceann wrote: Models move up to 6" is INVALIDATED as a standard by "This represents most creatures"
If it is invalidated, then how far does a Monstrous Creature move? Artillery?
Ceann wrote: If it doesn't represent ALL, then it isn't the standard.
The models move statement is invalided twice, be being called an explanation prior to being explained and having stated "it represents most".
As with all basic rules, it represents all, until stated otherwise. Where does it actually allow a Movement Distance is different from 6", Movement Phase or Unit Types?
Ceann wrote: My calvary is just one of the models not represented by "most". It's 12" movement is the maximum movement it has.
Just like a laspistol has a maximum range different from a lasgun.
No, not "just like". One is overriden by a unit type, the other has a different Profile. A better difference would be between the a Stormbolter's Assault Type and a Boltgun's Rapid Fire type.
Ceann wrote: These two statements seem a lot more similiar than your "models move up to 6".
Notice they both state ALL, does "models move up to 6" state all? Nope. 100% Nope.
Which two statements? Your method of addressing leaves this pronoun without reference.
No, it doesn't state "all models move up to 6". But it doesn't leave any room in the Movement Phase to be anything more, either. It isn't until we look at specific Unit Types that we see any differences. Are Unit Types basic rules or advanced rules?
Ceann wrote: In your turn, you can move any of your units – all of them if you wish – up to their maximum movement distance. All weapons have a maximum range, which is the furthest distance they can shoot
Note the differences?
How do we determine their maximum movement distance? Their Profile, which is basic, or their Type, which is advanced?
Ceann wrote: Infantry have no innate special rules, so they only use the basic rules.
The issue is that you wish for the basic rules to have preset values, which they dont.
The basic rules are the phases and the sequences. Special rules break rules of phases and sequences and infantry have none of those.
You are falsely attributing "advanced" rules based on the basic rules of other unit types instead the inherent special rules they have.
Some basic rules have preset values, some do not. Strength vs Toughness helps us determine a value for Wounding, but nothing is set based on Strength alone (yet).
There is only one Movement Distance value outside of Difficult Terrain mentioned in the Movement Phase, and it does not tell us to refer to a Unit Type or a Profile to determine this. That is the basic rules. Infantry have no innate special rules, so all their rules are basic rules. Infantry move the amount given in the Movement Phase, as do Monstrous Creatures. Why? Because those are the basic rules.
Ceann wrote: If we took a Beast unit and took away Fleet from it, then it would follow all the basic rules exactly like an Infantry model would.
It would move the same "up to its maximum value" it would shoot the same, assault the same, have morale the same.
No, it could, or it might not. If the Beast went 7-12" it would be moving beyond the Movement Distance allowed in the basic Movement Phase rules.
Ceann wrote: "Models move up to 6" in the Movement phase. This represents most creatures moving at a reasonable pace"
AKA "Most models move at a reasonable pace, up to 6" in the movement phase"
Most is not a standard.
All is a standard.
Most is a standard. It is used to describe a probability. If I took a random sampling of models of several tables, those that were not moving through Terrain would most likely be moving 6" at the most. In addition, you are also forgetting the fact that this sentence is also considering how Difficult Terrain influences the situation.
Even then, this statement about "most creatures" is not an instruction, but an explanation. It doesn't tell you to look at other places for a different Movement Distances.
Ceann wrote: These are standards.
In your turn, you can move any of your units – all of them if you wish – up to their maximum movement distance. All weapons have a maximum range, which is the furthest distance they can shoot
This is not.
"Models move up to 6" in the Movement phase. This represents most creatures moving at a reasonable pace"
Again, if moving 6" is not the standard, how far can an Artillery unit or Monstrous Creature move?
Weapon - Maximum Range
Laspistol - 12"
Boltgun - 24"
Autocannon - 48"
Would compare to....
Movement - Maximum Range
Infantry - 6"
Calvary - 12"
Beast - 12"
No, it would not. Range is part of a Weapon's Profile. Movement Distance is not part of a unit's profile, but of its Type, and Type is in addition to the model profile, not part of the model profile.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/30 00:38:22
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
2017/04/30 01:07:06
Subject: Re:Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves
This thread is getting de-railed by a discussion about Eternity Gate which is expressly what the OP forbid.
Happyjew wrote: If I put a unit with Deep Strike (or Outflank) in Reserves, and declare them to be Deep Striking (or Outflanking), are you allowed to change how they come on? Can they choose to walk on as normal after they have sat in Reserves for a turn or 2? Or are they required to come in via the method you have told your opponent?
This is a slight off-shoot of the previous thread regarding the Monolith portal and Deep Strike Reserves, and while it may have some bearing on that discussion, it was locked for a reason. So please leave that topic at the door.
I suggest we get back to the actual discussion about whether or not a player who declares a unit to be Deep Striking can change how they come on.
Now many of you may have RAI arguments that the player cannot change how they come on, but RAW says otherwise.
The rules indicate that only those units that 'must arrive by Deep Strike' will have no choice but to arrive by Deep Strike.
Some units must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike.
A unit with the Deep Strike rule could choose to instead arrive from Reserves invoking normal infantry permissions and walking on the battlefield.
The Deep Strike rules require that you merely announce that you will be arriving via Deep Strike. But announcing does not restrict you from arriving via the general permission to walk on the battlefield from Reserves. The general permission is still completely available and has not been removed by any rule, special or otherwise. The Deep Strike rule specifically places you in Reserves AND Deep Strike Reserves, keeping the option to walk on the battlefield from Reserves open.
For comparison, note that Outflank is written in such a way that all other options are removed.
Outflank
During deployment, players can declare that any unit that contains at least one modelwith this special rule is attempting to Outflank the enemy.
When this unit arrives from Reserves, but not Ongoing Reserve, the controlling player rolls a D6: on a 1-2, the unit comes in from the table edge to the left of their controlling player’s own table edge; on a 3-4, they come on from the right; on a 5-6, the player can choose left or right. Models move onto the table as described for other Reserves.
Outflank takes away the permission to walk on from Reserves. Deep Strike does not. A unit that has announced that it will be Deep Striking is placed both in Reserves and Deep Strike Reserves, leaving the option open to walk on from Reserves when it comes time to roll for Reserves.
The player must announce that the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike, but - and this is the big but - there is no rule in place requiring the player to actually have that unit arrive by Deep Strike. Outflank provides this but Deep Strike does not.
Announcing is not levying a restriction.
When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve).
The rule is 100% satisfied by merely telling your opponent "the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike". End of story. That's what the rule literally requires. What amounts to 'a declaration of intent to Deep Strike'.
If you later change your mind and have the unit walk on the battlefield from Reserves the rule is still satisfied. You told your opponent "the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike" and that act of telling (declaring intent) is all that was required.
Pay attention to what the rule is actually requiring and not what you think it is requiring.
"You must tell your opponent that [the unit] will be arriving by Deep Strike" does not mean "the unit must arrive by Deep Strike".
Technically, the player still has the option of changing his mind when it comes to Rolling for Reserves and having the unit walk on the battlefield and not Deep Strike onto the battlefield.
Ceann wrote: I do know the difference. I also know the difference between the rules for a unit type and the basic rules.
But aren't you the one saying that unit type rules are basic rules?
Ceann wrote: We were told we were going to be explained Infantry and we have been explained Infantry.
You can't lean on page 13 because there is no basic vs basic precedence.
There actually is.
Ceann wrote: Models move up to 6" is INVALIDATED as a standard by "This represents most creatures"
If it is invalidated, then how far does a Monstrous Creature move? Artillery?
Ceann wrote: If it doesn't represent ALL, then it isn't the standard.
The models move statement is invalided twice, be being called an explanation prior to being explained and having stated "it represents most".
As with all basic rules, it represents all, until stated otherwise. Where does it actually allow a Movement Distance is different from 6", Movement Phase or Unit Types?
Ceann wrote: My calvary is just one of the models not represented by "most". It's 12" movement is the maximum movement it has.
Just like a laspistol has a maximum range different from a lasgun.
No, not "just like". One is overriden by a unit type, the other has a different Profile. A better difference would be between the a Stormbolter's Assault Type and a Boltgun's Rapid Fire type.
Ceann wrote: These two statements seem a lot more similiar than your "models move up to 6".
Notice they both state ALL, does "models move up to 6" state all? Nope. 100% Nope.
Which two statements? Your method of addressing leaves this pronoun without reference.
No, it doesn't state "all models move up to 6". But it doesn't leave any room in the Movement Phase to be anything more, either. It isn't until we look at specific Unit Types that we see any differences. Are Unit Types basic rules or advanced rules?
Ceann wrote: In your turn, you can move any of your units – all of them if you wish – up to their maximum movement distance. All weapons have a maximum range, which is the furthest distance they can shoot
Note the differences?
How do we determine their maximum movement distance? Their Profile, which is basic, or their Type, which is advanced?
Ceann wrote: Infantry have no innate special rules, so they only use the basic rules.
The issue is that you wish for the basic rules to have preset values, which they dont.
The basic rules are the phases and the sequences. Special rules break rules of phases and sequences and infantry have none of those.
You are falsely attributing "advanced" rules based on the basic rules of other unit types instead the inherent special rules they have.
Some basic rules have preset values, some do not. Strength vs Toughness helps us determine a value for Wounding, but nothing is set based on Strength alone (yet).
There is only one Movement Distance value outside of Difficult Terrain mentioned in the Movement Phase, and it does not tell us to refer to a Unit Type or a Profile to determine this. That is the basic rules. Infantry have no innate special rules, so all their rules are basic rules. Infantry move the amount given in the Movement Phase, as do Monstrous Creatures. Why? Because those are the basic rules.
Ceann wrote: If we took a Beast unit and took away Fleet from it, then it would follow all the basic rules exactly like an Infantry model would.
It would move the same "up to its maximum value" it would shoot the same, assault the same, have morale the same.
No, it could, or it might not. If the Beast went 7-12" it would be moving beyond the Movement Distance allowed in the basic Movement Phase rules.
Ceann wrote: "Models move up to 6" in the Movement phase. This represents most creatures moving at a reasonable pace"
AKA "Most models move at a reasonable pace, up to 6" in the movement phase"
Most is not a standard.
All is a standard.
Most is a standard. It is used to describe a probability. If I took a random sampling of models of several tables, those that were not moving through Terrain would most likely be moving 6" at the most. In addition, you are also forgetting the fact that this sentence is also considering how Difficult Terrain influences the situation.
Even then, this statement about "most creatures" is not an instruction, but an explanation. It doesn't tell you to look at other places for a different Movement Distances.
Ceann wrote: These are standards.
In your turn, you can move any of your units – all of them if you wish – up to their maximum movement distance. All weapons have a maximum range, which is the furthest distance they can shoot
This is not.
"Models move up to 6" in the Movement phase. This represents most creatures moving at a reasonable pace"
Again, if moving 6" is not the standard, how far can an Artillery unit or Monstrous Creature move?
Weapon - Maximum Range
Laspistol - 12"
Boltgun - 24"
Autocannon - 48"
Would compare to....
Movement - Maximum Range
Infantry - 6"
Calvary - 12"
Beast - 12"
No, it would not. Range is part of a Weapon's Profile. Movement Distance is not part of a unit's profile, but of its Type, and Type is in addition to the model profile, not part of the model profile.
I am saying that the rules that units have, for "movement, shooting, assault and morale" are the basic rules for that type and that the special rules they have are the special rules.
Assault type for a weapon is no more of an "advanced rule" than pistol type. They each have their own attributes that they use within the phases.
There is not, again, if we took a Beast and took fleet away from it, it would match the criteria for page 13 "these are all the rules you need to play beasts" if the phrase were transposed. Advanced rules are indicative of special rules, which Infantry do not innately have. That is why that statement exists.
A MC states in it's profile that it uses the rules for the Infantry type, not the basic rules, the Infantry type.
Which actually coincides with us being told that the rules for Infantry type would be "explained" in the movement section.
Do you have a particular piece of Artillery in mind? IIRC Artillery don't actually move at all, the Infantry/Crew in the unit move the artillery, if they all die then it cannot move.
It does not represent all, because there is a rule that states it represents all, the one that states they can move their maximum value.
The 6" move is the Infantry type movement, as was explained, this is also collaborated by MC's referencing the Infantry type rules.
Except it isn't overidden. One is the Infantry type, and the others are their own type.
Note that Jetpack Units can "move as models of their type" if they were an Infantry type then it would be 6", if they were a Jump Beast it would be 12".
Unit types contain the basic values and special rules for their type.
I don't see you arguing that any non stormbolter is advanced, or non lascannon is advanced, or non battlecannon is advanced or non bolt pistol is advanced etc etc.
Those are all listed as examples of weapons for their type in the shooting section and you have no issue with other weapons.
But they use Infantry as the example for movement and, woah burn the house down, for moving 12". It is sort of a double standard.
How do we determine their maximum movement? The same way we determine how far a weapon can shoot or how many shots, check its profile.
You cannot assert that they are advanced still while simultaneously moving away from 6" to talk about unit types, unless your acknowledging the possibility that statement is not as ironclad as you think. The advanced rules that a Beast type has, is Fleet, not moves 12". In order to be advanced it has to be breaking a rule, it is not breaking the Infantry move 6" because it isn't Infantry, it is a Beast. It is permitted by the movement phase rule to move 12", so it isn't breaking any rule.
MC's move 6" because their profile states to use the Infantry type rules, not the "standard movement rule".
Again, Infantry were explained to us. Just because the others weren't used in the explanation doesn't mean they adhere to Infantry standards.
They couldn't possibly explain 12 or however many unit types their are all at once in the explanation of movement. They demonstrated the process of the movement phase, using Infantry type rules.
My Beast moving 7-12" is simply just not one of "most" creatures, that is all. So it isn't breaking any rule.
We are told in the Movement Phase, where to look, the page numbers are included in the physical book.
"In your turn, you can move any of your units – all of them if you wish – up to their maximum movement distance.
All weapons have a maximum range, which is the furthest distance they can shoot"
These are indeed standards, they apply to ALL of a category, uniformly.
Artillery and MC are same answers as above.
Unit Type is discussed under models and units, along with vehicle characteristics. Making Unit Type a basic rule in and of itself.
You are are again attributing the "apply to specific models" from BvA to construe Unit Type as advanced, while what it is actually telling you is that Unit types have advanced rules attached to them.
Such as Fleet for Beast, not that the Unit Types themselves are advanced.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/30 01:35:44
2017/04/30 01:29:44
Subject: Re:Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves
col_impact wrote: This thread is getting de-railed by a discussion about Eternity Gate which is expressly what the OP forbid.
Happyjew wrote: If I put a unit with Deep Strike (or Outflank) in Reserves, and declare them to be Deep Striking (or Outflanking), are you allowed to change how they come on? Can they choose to walk on as normal after they have sat in Reserves for a turn or 2? Or are they required to come in via the method you have told your opponent?
This is a slight off-shoot of the previous thread regarding the Monolith portal and Deep Strike Reserves, and while it may have some bearing on that discussion, it was locked for a reason. So please leave that topic at the door.
I suggest we get back to the actual discussion about whether or not a player who declares a unit to be Deep Striking can change how they come on.
Now many of you may have RAI arguments that the player cannot change how they come on, but RAW says otherwise.
The rules indicate that only those units that 'must arrive by Deep Strike' will have no choice but to arrive by Deep Strike.
Some units must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike.
A unit with the Deep Strike rule could choose to instead arrive from Reserves invoking normal infantry permissions and walking on the battlefield.
The Deep Strike rules require that you merely announce that you will be arriving via Deep Strike. But announcing does not restrict you from arriving via the general permission to walk on the battlefield from Reserves. The general permission is still completely available and has not been removed by any rule, special or otherwise. The Deep Strike rule specifically places you in Reserves AND Deep Strike Reserves, keeping the option to walk on the battlefield from Reserves open.
For comparison, note that Outflank is written in such a way that all other options are removed.
Outflank
During deployment, players can declare that any unit that contains at least one modelwith this special rule is attempting to Outflank the enemy.
When this unit arrives from Reserves, but not Ongoing Reserve, the controlling player rolls a D6: on a 1-2, the unit comes in from the table edge to the left of their controlling player’s own table edge; on a 3-4, they come on from the right; on a 5-6, the player can choose left or right. Models move onto the table as described for other Reserves.
Outflank takes away the permission to walk on from Reserves. Deep Strike does not. A unit that has announced that it will be Deep Striking is placed both in Reserves and Deep Strike Reserves, leaving the option open to walk on from Reserves when it comes time to roll for Reserves.
The player must announce that the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike, but - and this is the big but - there is no rule in place requiring the player to actually have that unit arrive by Deep Strike. Outflank provides this but Deep Strike does not.
Announcing is not levying a restriction.
When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve).
The rule is 100% satisfied by merely telling your opponent "the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike". End of story. That's what the rule literally requires. What amounts to 'a declaration of intent to Deep Strike'.
If you later change your mind and have the unit walk on the battlefield from Reserves the rule is still satisfied. You told your opponent "the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike" and that act of telling (declaring intent) is all that was required.
Pay attention to what the rule is actually requiring and not what you think it is requiring.
"You must tell your opponent that [the unit] will be arriving by Deep Strike" does not mean "the unit must arrive by Deep Strike".
Technically, the player still has the option of changing his mind when it comes to Rolling for Reserves and having the unit walk on the battlefield and not Deep Strike onto the battlefield.
We are trying to establish precedence in order to further discuss the issue Col.
If you have a problem with that then I am sorry that you aren't following the value of that conversation as it will ultimately tie into the question at hand.
You see there is this rule for the forums where you have to provide your premise.
You have no established premise to ignore following the rest of the Deep Strike rules, you just assume you have it.
You have been asked for it multiple times by multiple people and you never provided a premise or rule location allowing you to use part of a rule.
Multiple people have explained how your argument is incorrect, yet you keep asserting it is and keep repeating it.
So until you provide your premise you are actually not doing anything other than repeating your argument over and over, which adds no value.
Please provide your premise that allows you to use part of a rule.
Charistoph and I at least are trying to come to a precedence conclusion in order to further address the question.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/04/30 01:33:47
2017/04/30 01:42:59
Subject: Re:Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves
We are trying to establish precedence in order to further discuss the issue Col.
If you have a problem with that then I am sorry that you aren't following the value of that conversation as it will ultimately tie into the question at hand.
You see there is this rule for the forums where you have to provide your premise.
You have no established premise to ignore following the rest of the Deep Strike rules, you just assume you have it.
You have been asked for it multiple times by multiple people and you never provided a premise or rule location allowing you to use part of a rule.
Multiple people have explained how your argument is incorrect, yet you keep asserting it is and keep repeating it.
So until you provide your premise you are actually not doing anything other than repeating your argument over and over, which adds no value.
Please provide your premise that allows you to use part of a rule.
Charistoph and I at least are trying to come to a precedence conclusion in order to further address the question.
The Deep Strike rule is never ignored. The second half of the Deep Strike rule is simply never triggered since the unit elected Moving On From Reserves instead. The Reserves rule is never overridden since BvA does not apply.
Summary of Argument
Spoiler:
The rules indicate that only those units that 'must arrive by Deep Strike' will have no choice but to arrive by Deep Strike.
Some units must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike.
A unit with the Deep Strike rule could choose to instead arrive from Reserves invoking normal infantry permissions and walking on the battlefield.
The Deep Strike rules require that you merely announce that you will be arriving via Deep Strike. But announcing does not restrict you from arriving via the general permission to walk on the battlefield from Reserves. The general permission is still completely available and has not been removed by any rule, special or otherwise. The Deep Strike rule specifically places you in Reserves AND Deep Strike Reserves, keeping the option to walk on the battlefield from Reserves open.
For comparison, note that Outflank is written in such a way that all other options are removed.
Outflank
During deployment, players can declare that any unit that contains at least one modelwith this special rule is attempting to Outflank the enemy.
When this unit arrives from Reserves, but not Ongoing Reserve, the controlling player rolls a D6: on a 1-2, the unit comes in from the table edge to the left of their controlling player’s own table edge; on a 3-4, they come on from the right; on a 5-6, the player can choose left or right. Models move onto the table as described for other Reserves.
Outflank takes away the permission to walk on from Reserves. Deep Strike does not. A unit that has announced that it will be Deep Striking is placed both in Reserves and Deep Strike Reserves, leaving the option open to walk on from Reserves when it comes time to roll for Reserves.
The player must announce that the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike, but - and this is the big but - there is no rule in place requiring the player to actually have that unit arrive by Deep Strike. Outflank provides this but Deep Strike does not.
Announcing is not levying a restriction.
When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve).
The rule is 100% satisfied by merely telling your opponent "the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike". End of story. That's what the rule literally requires. What amounts to 'a declaration of intent to Deep Strike'.
If you later change your mind and have the unit walk on the battlefield from Reserves the rule is still satisfied. You told your opponent "the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike" and that act of telling (declaring intent) is all that was required.
Pay attention to what the rule is actually requiring and not what you think it is requiring.
"You must tell your opponent that [the unit] will be arriving by Deep Strike" does not mean "the unit must arrive by Deep Strike".
Technically, the player still has the option of changing his mind when it comes to Rolling for Reserves and having the unit walk on the battlefield and not Deep Strike onto the battlefield.
Also, this is how we determine which rule is which
Spoiler:
1) Basic rules are in the Core Rules section and only in the Core Rules section.
Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles.
2) Advanced rules are found in any section of the BRB that is not the Core Rules section, although technically there could be a few advanced rules in the Core Rules section. We just know that all basic rules are in the Core Rules section.
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale. These are all the rules you’ll need for infantry models.
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).
The rule for advanced rules calls out "bike", "character", "tank", "swarm", and "boltgun" as examples of advanced rules that apply to specific models. Those particular example advanced rules can be found in the Unit Type section (bike unit type, character rules, tank vehicle type) and the Appendix (swarm special rule, boltgun weapon profile). The Battlefield Terrain and Preparing for Battle sections in the BRB can also contain advanced rules. Basically any section of the BRB which is not the Core Rules section can contain advanced rules (although technically there may be advanced rules in the Core Rules section). The Core Rules section is for basic rules.
Advanced rules are any rules that distinguish a model as a specific model separate from the most basic infantry model using the basic rules for movement, shooting, combat, or morale.
The Army List Entry indicates what advanced rules apply. One typically finds Army List Entries in a codex but the advanced rules themselves can be found in all sections of the BRB and any 40k publication such as a Codex.
3) Special Rules are in the Special Rule section. They can also be elsewhere.
All Special Rules are Advanced Rules but not all Advanced Rules are Special Rules.
2017/04/30 02:00:04
Subject: Re:Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves
We are trying to establish precedence in order to further discuss the issue Col.
If you have a problem with that then I am sorry that you aren't following the value of that conversation as it will ultimately tie into the question at hand.
You see there is this rule for the forums where you have to provide your premise.
You have no established premise to ignore following the rest of the Deep Strike rules, you just assume you have it.
You have been asked for it multiple times by multiple people and you never provided a premise or rule location allowing you to use part of a rule.
Multiple people have explained how your argument is incorrect, yet you keep asserting it is and keep repeating it.
So until you provide your premise you are actually not doing anything other than repeating your argument over and over, which adds no value.
Please provide your premise that allows you to use part of a rule.
Charistoph and I at least are trying to come to a precedence conclusion in order to further address the question.
The Deep Strike rule is never ignored. The second half of the Deep Strike rule is simply never triggered since the unit elected Moving On From Reserves instead. The Reserves rule is never overridden since BvA does not apply.
Summary of Argument
Spoiler:
The rules indicate that only those units that 'must arrive by Deep Strike' will have no choice but to arrive by Deep Strike.
Some units must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike.
A unit with the Deep Strike rule could choose to instead arrive from Reserves invoking normal infantry permissions and walking on the battlefield.
The Deep Strike rules require that you merely announce that you will be arriving via Deep Strike. But announcing does not restrict you from arriving via the general permission to walk on the battlefield from Reserves. The general permission is still completely available and has not been removed by any rule, special or otherwise. The Deep Strike rule specifically places you in Reserves AND Deep Strike Reserves, keeping the option to walk on the battlefield from Reserves open.
For comparison, note that Outflank is written in such a way that all other options are removed.
Outflank
During deployment, players can declare that any unit that contains at least one modelwith this special rule is attempting to Outflank the enemy.
When this unit arrives from Reserves, but not Ongoing Reserve, the controlling player rolls a D6: on a 1-2, the unit comes in from the table edge to the left of their controlling player’s own table edge; on a 3-4, they come on from the right; on a 5-6, the player can choose left or right. Models move onto the table as described for other Reserves.
Outflank takes away the permission to walk on from Reserves. Deep Strike does not. A unit that has announced that it will be Deep Striking is placed both in Reserves and Deep Strike Reserves, leaving the option open to walk on from Reserves when it comes time to roll for Reserves.
The player must announce that the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike, but - and this is the big but - there is no rule in place requiring the player to actually have that unit arrive by Deep Strike. Outflank provides this but Deep Strike does not.
Announcing is not levying a restriction.
When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve).
The rule is 100% satisfied by merely telling your opponent "the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike". End of story. That's what the rule literally requires. What amounts to 'a declaration of intent to Deep Strike'.
If you later change your mind and have the unit walk on the battlefield from Reserves the rule is still satisfied. You told your opponent "the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike" and that act of telling (declaring intent) is all that was required.
Pay attention to what the rule is actually requiring and not what you think it is requiring.
"You must tell your opponent that [the unit] will be arriving by Deep Strike" does not mean "the unit must arrive by Deep Strike".
Technically, the player still has the option of changing his mind when it comes to Rolling for Reserves and having the unit walk on the battlefield and not Deep Strike onto the battlefield.
Also, this is how we determine which rule is which
Spoiler:
1) Basic rules are in the Core Rules section and only in the Core Rules section.
Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles.
2) Advanced rules are found in any section of the BRB that is not the Core Rules section, although technically there could be a few advanced rules in the Core Rules section. We just know that all basic rules are in the Core Rules section.
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale. These are all the rules you’ll need for infantry models.
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).
The rule for advanced rules calls out "bike", "character", "tank", "swarm", and "boltgun" as examples of advanced rules that apply to specific models. Those particular example advanced rules can be found in the Unit Type section (bike unit type, character rules, tank vehicle type) and the Appendix (swarm special rule, boltgun weapon profile). The Battlefield Terrain and Preparing for Battle sections in the BRB can also contain advanced rules. Basically any section of the BRB which is not the Core Rules section can contain advanced rules (although technically there may be advanced rules in the Core Rules section). The Core Rules section is for basic rules.
Advanced rules are any rules that distinguish a model as a specific model separate from the most basic infantry model using the basic rules for movement, shooting, combat, or morale.
The Army List Entry indicates what advanced rules apply. One typically finds Army List Entries in a codex but the advanced rules themselves can be found in all sections of the BRB and any 40k publication such as a Codex.
3) Special Rules are in the Special Rule section. They can also be elsewhere.
All Special Rules are Advanced Rules but not all Advanced Rules are Special Rules.
"Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:"
You cannot choose to not "roll for the arrival" because as soon as you begin making reserve rolls it requires you to do so, since they are in deep strike reserve.
Once you start your turn and roll for reserves, it is in the state of deep strike reserve and as such it immediately requests you make a deep strike reserve roll.
If you make the roll "as specified in the rules for reserves" but then you must "deploy them as follows".
The roll you are attempting to use to walk onto the board, is being using for the deep strike roll, whether you wish it to be or not.
Deep strike is not giving you a normal reserve roll, it is giving you a deep strike reserve roll.
So again, provide your premise that you allowed to ignore the Deep Strike rules.
I have asked for it before and so have others.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/04/30 02:01:52
2017/04/30 02:20:14
Subject: Re:Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves
"Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:"
You cannot choose to not "roll for the arrival" because as soon as you begin making reserve rolls it requires you to do so, since they are in deep strike reserve.
Once you start your turn and roll for reserves, it is in the state of deep strike reserve and as such it immediately requests you make a deep strike reserve roll.
If you make the roll "as specified in the rules for reserves" but then you must "deploy them as follows".
The roll you are attempting to use to walk onto the board, is being using for the deep strike roll, whether you wish it to be or not.
Deep strike is not giving you a normal reserve roll, it is giving you a deep strike reserve roll.
So again, provide your premise that you allowed to ignore the Deep Strike rules.
I have asked for it before and so have others.
The unit is in both Reserves and Deep Strike Reserves. When the player makes the Roll for Reserves he simply elects to use the permission to Move on From Reserves. The permission is still there and no rule has taken that permission away.
Spoiler:
When Reserves arrive, pick one of your arriving units and deploy it, moving it onto the table as described below. Then pick another arriving unit and deploy it, and so on until all arriving units are on the table. The player can then proceed to move his other units as normal. Note that you must first roll for all Reserves, and then move any arriving Reserves, before any other units can move.
Moving On From Reserve
When a Reserves unit arrives, it must move onto the table from the controlling player’s table edge. Measure the model’s move from the edge of the table, as if they had been positioned just off the board in the previous turn.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/04/30 03:19:58
Ceann wrote: I am saying that the rules that units have, for "movement, shooting, assault and morale" are the basic rules for that type and that the special rules they have are the special rules.
Assault type for a weapon is no more of an "advanced rule" than pistol type. They each have their own attributes that they use within the phases.
Basic for that type and basic for that game are not synonymous. In fact, in any of the unit types with a movement distance over 6", it is never noted as basic. This is a construct entirely made by you.
Ceann wrote: There is not, again, if we took a Beast and took fleet away from it, it would match the criteria for page 13 "these are all the rules you need to play beasts" if the phrase were transposed. Advanced rules are indicative of special rules, which Infantry do not innately have. That is why that statement exists.
But page 13 does not transpose that phrase to that. Being a Beast involves advanced rules. One of them is movement distance.
Special Rules via unusual skills are only one part of the domain of advanced rules. Something you seem to ignore repeatedly.
Ceann wrote: A MC states in it's profile that it uses the rules for the Infantry type, not the basic rules, the Infantry type.
Which actually coincides with us being told that the rules for Infantry type would be "explained" in the movement section.
Actually is says it uses many of the Infantry rules. Movement Distance is not one it says it uses. So, what is the maximum movement distance of a Monstrous Creature if it is not listed here?
Ceann wrote: Do you have a particular piece of Artillery in mind? IIRC Artillery don't actually move at all, the Infantry/Crew in the unit move the artillery, if they all die then it cannot move.
Then you fail at understanding this unit type nor have ever looked one up. Artillery models do move. They do not have Infantry with them unless an IC joins them. "Artillery units consist of a number of crew models and the gun models themselves." If you look up one of the Artillery units, you will find that they are all classified as Artillery. The gun models require crew models to move.
Their Movement Phase rules do not provide any information or reference to distance. It is all about the requirement of having one crew model per gun model in order to move. That's it.
Ceann wrote: It does not represent all, because there is a rule that states it represents all, the one that states they can move their maximum value.
The 6" move is the Infantry type movement, as was explained, this is also collaborated by MC's referencing the Infantry type rules.
That is only your assumption. If we go by your earlier consideration, that we are reading this document for the first time, then we do not know that other Unit Types will provide a greater Movement Distance. The Movement Phase never references this possibility, much less directs to the Unit Type for a different Movement Distance.
At the point of Movement Distance, 6" is all we have. At the end of the Movement Phase, we have 6" outside of Difficult Terrain, and pick the highest of 2D6 for inside of Difficult Terrain. That is it. If you can provide where it actually directs us to Unit Types to learn about different Movement Distances, then please present it.
It is only once we reach the Bike Unit Type that we find that movement distances greater than 6" can be had.
Ceann wrote: Except it isn't overidden. One is the Infantry type, and the others are their own type.
Note that Jetpack Units can "move as models of their type" if they were an Infantry type then it would be 6", if they were a Jump Beast it would be 12".
Read about Thrust in the Jet Pack rules, because that is also in there. That is a different "how", for reference.
Profile of a model is: BS, WS, S, T, I, A, Ld, Sv.
Profile of a Weapon is: (sometimes Mode), Range, S, AP, and Type.
Range is part of a Weapon's profile. Movement Distance is not part of a model's profile.
Ceann wrote: Unit types contain the basic values and special rules for their type.
I'm going to need a quote where it states, "unit types contain the basic values... for their type". You have never once quoted the BRB on it, and after all this time I have to assume it is a complete construct by you. You are making an extrapolation based on one reading of Basic rules definition and ignoring the defined bounds of advanced rules.
Ceann wrote: I don't see you arguing that any non stormbolter is advanced, or non lascannon is advanced, or non battlecannon is advanced or non bolt pistol is advanced etc etc.
Those are all listed as examples of weapons for their type in the shooting section and you have no issue with other weapons.
But they use Infantry as the example for movement and, woah burn the house down, for moving 12". It is sort of a double standard.
Advanced rules apply to a specific type of model because they have a special kind of weapon, such as a boltgun. Boltguns are as basic as you get in the SM Codex, yet, it is referred to as advanced rules here.
Ceann wrote: How do we determine their maximum movement? The same way we determine how far a weapon can shoot or how many shots, check its profile.
Movement is not noted as part of a model's profile. See above.
Ceann wrote: You cannot assert that they are advanced still while simultaneously moving away from 6" to talk about unit types, unless your acknowledging the possibility that statement is not as ironclad as you think. The advanced rules that a Beast type has, is Fleet, not moves 12". In order to be advanced it has to be breaking a rule, it is not breaking the Infantry move 6" because it isn't Infantry, it is a Beast. It is permitted by the movement phase rule to move 12", so it isn't breaking any rule.
I can call their movement distance advanced because it is not included in their profile and goes beyond the distance provided in the bounds of the basic rules.
Ceann wrote: MC's move 6" because their profile states to use the Infantry type rules, not the "standard movement rule".
Again, Infantry were explained to us. Just because the others weren't used in the explanation doesn't mean they adhere to Infantry standards.
They couldn't possibly explain 12 or however many unit types their are all at once in the explanation of movement. They demonstrated the process of the movement phase, using Infantry type rules.
Why not? It takes two lines to do it in the Unit Type. Considering the fact that only 3 Unit Types actually follow that distance without resorting to even more special rules (i.e. Walker, Heavy).
It could have easily been stated in that phrase starting Movement Distance to just refer to the Unit Type for its maximum distance. But they didn't. They set it at a specific value and did not tell you to go somewhere else to see if it's Unit Type gives you more.
Ceann wrote: My Beast moving 7-12" is simply just not one of "most" creatures, that is all. So it isn't breaking any rule.
Where did Movement Distance tell you to look at its Unit Type for that information?
Ceann wrote: We are told in the Movement Phase, where to look, the page numbers are included in the physical book.
"In your turn, you can move any of your units – all of them if you wish – up to their maximum movement distance.
Unit Type is not mentioned here.
Ceann wrote: All weapons have a maximum range, which is the furthest distance they can shoot"
Part of its profile, see above.
Ceann wrote: Unit Type is discussed under models and units, along with vehicle characteristics. Making Unit Type a basic rule in and of itself.
You are are again attributing the "apply to specific models" from BvA to construe Unit Type as advanced, while what it is actually telling you is that Unit types have advanced rules attached to them.
Such as Fleet for Beast, not that the Unit Types themselves are advanced.
Unit Types are not part of the profile, though.
No, I'm attributing Unit Type to be advance rules due to advanced rules apply to specific types of models because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank). Special Rules are actually referred to as "unusual skills", which are also advanced rules.
You seem afraid of this sentence as being a defining statement. One that sets the bounds of what is and is not an advanced rule. Is it because you must so badly have Unit Type rules not listed under Special Rules be basic rules? Why?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/30 02:23:46
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
Ceann wrote: I am saying that the rules that units have, for "movement, shooting, assault and morale" are the basic rules for that type and that the special rules they have are the special rules.
Assault type for a weapon is no more of an "advanced rule" than pistol type. They each have their own attributes that they use within the phases.
Basic for that type and basic for that game are not synonymous. In fact, in any of the unit types with a movement distance over 6", it is never noted as basic. This is a construct entirely made by you.
Ceann wrote: There is not, again, if we took a Beast and took fleet away from it, it would match the criteria for page 13 "these are all the rules you need to play beasts" if the phrase were transposed. Advanced rules are indicative of special rules, which Infantry do not innately have. That is why that statement exists.
But page 13 does not transpose that phrase to that. Being a Beast involves advanced rules. One of them is movement distance.
Special Rules via unusual skills are only one part of the domain of advanced rules. Something you seem to ignore repeatedly.
Ceann wrote: A MC states in it's profile that it uses the rules for the Infantry type, not the basic rules, the Infantry type.
Which actually coincides with us being told that the rules for Infantry type would be "explained" in the movement section.
Actually is says it uses many of the Infantry rules. Movement Distance is not one it says it uses. So, what is the maximum movement distance of a Monstrous Creature if it is not listed here?
Ceann wrote: Do you have a particular piece of Artillery in mind? IIRC Artillery don't actually move at all, the Infantry/Crew in the unit move the artillery, if they all die then it cannot move.
Then you fail at understanding this unit type nor have ever looked one up. Artillery models do move. They do not have Infantry with them unless an IC joins them. "Artillery units consist of a number of crew models and the gun models themselves." If you look up one of the Artillery units, you will find that they are all classified as Artillery. The gun models require crew models to move.
Their Movement Phase rules do not provide any information or reference to distance. It is all about the requirement of having one crew model per gun model in order to move. That's it.
Ceann wrote: It does not represent all, because there is a rule that states it represents all, the one that states they can move their maximum value.
The 6" move is the Infantry type movement, as was explained, this is also collaborated by MC's referencing the Infantry type rules.
That is only your assumption. If we go by your earlier consideration, that we are reading this document for the first time, then we do not know that other Unit Types will provide a greater Movement Distance. The Movement Phase never references this possibility, much less directs to the Unit Type for a different Movement Distance.
At the point of Movement Distance, 6" is all we have. At the end of the Movement Phase, we have 6" outside of Difficult Terrain, and pick the highest of 2D6 for inside of Difficult Terrain. That is it. If you can provide where it actually directs us to Unit Types to learn about different Movement Distances, then please present it.
It is only once we reach the Bike Unit Type that we find that movement distances greater than 6" can be had.
Ceann wrote: Except it isn't overidden. One is the Infantry type, and the others are their own type.
Note that Jetpack Units can "move as models of their type" if they were an Infantry type then it would be 6", if they were a Jump Beast it would be 12".
Read about Thrust in the Jet Pack rules, because that is also in there. That is a different "how", for reference.
Profile of a model is: BS, WS, S, T, I, A, Ld, Sv.
Profile of a Weapon is: (sometimes Mode), Range, S, AP, and Type.
Range is part of a Weapon's profile. Movement Distance is not part of a model's profile.
Ceann wrote: Unit types contain the basic values and special rules for their type.
I'm going to need a quote where it states, "unit types contain the basic values... for their type". You have never once quoted the BRB on it, and after all this time I have to assume it is a complete construct by you. You are making an extrapolation based on one reading of Basic rules definition and ignoring the defined bounds of advanced rules.
Ceann wrote: I don't see you arguing that any non stormbolter is advanced, or non lascannon is advanced, or non battlecannon is advanced or non bolt pistol is advanced etc etc.
Those are all listed as examples of weapons for their type in the shooting section and you have no issue with other weapons.
But they use Infantry as the example for movement and, woah burn the house down, for moving 12". It is sort of a double standard.
Advanced rules apply to a specific type of model because they have a special kind of weapon, such as a boltgun. Boltguns are as basic as you get in the SM Codex, yet, it is referred to as advanced rules here.
Ceann wrote: How do we determine their maximum movement? The same way we determine how far a weapon can shoot or how many shots, check its profile.
Movement is not noted as part of a model's profile. See above.
Ceann wrote: You cannot assert that they are advanced still while simultaneously moving away from 6" to talk about unit types, unless your acknowledging the possibility that statement is not as ironclad as you think. The advanced rules that a Beast type has, is Fleet, not moves 12". In order to be advanced it has to be breaking a rule, it is not breaking the Infantry move 6" because it isn't Infantry, it is a Beast. It is permitted by the movement phase rule to move 12", so it isn't breaking any rule.
I can call their movement distance advanced because it is not included in their profile and goes beyond the distance provided in the bounds of the basic rules.
Ceann wrote: MC's move 6" because their profile states to use the Infantry type rules, not the "standard movement rule".
Again, Infantry were explained to us. Just because the others weren't used in the explanation doesn't mean they adhere to Infantry standards.
They couldn't possibly explain 12 or however many unit types their are all at once in the explanation of movement. They demonstrated the process of the movement phase, using Infantry type rules.
Why not? It takes two lines to do it in the Unit Type. Considering the fact that only 3 Unit Types actually follow that distance without resorting to even more special rules (i.e. Walker, Heavy).
It could have easily been stated in that phrase starting Movement Distance to just refer to the Unit Type for its maximum distance. But they didn't. They set it at a specific value and did not tell you to go somewhere else to see if it's Unit Type gives you more.
Ceann wrote: My Beast moving 7-12" is simply just not one of "most" creatures, that is all. So it isn't breaking any rule.
Where did Movement Distance tell you to look at its Unit Type for that information?
Ceann wrote: We are told in the Movement Phase, where to look, the page numbers are included in the physical book.
"In your turn, you can move any of your units – all of them if you wish – up to their maximum movement distance.
Unit Type is not mentioned here.
Ceann wrote: All weapons have a maximum range, which is the furthest distance they can shoot"
Part of its profile, see above.
Ceann wrote: Unit Type is discussed under models and units, along with vehicle characteristics. Making Unit Type a basic rule in and of itself.
You are are again attributing the "apply to specific models" from BvA to construe Unit Type as advanced, while what it is actually telling you is that Unit types have advanced rules attached to them.
Such as Fleet for Beast, not that the Unit Types themselves are advanced.
Unit Types are not part of the profile, though.
No, I'm attributing Unit Type to be advance rules due to advanced rules apply to specific types of models because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank). Special Rules are actually referred to as "unusual skills", which are also advanced rules.
You seem afraid of this sentence as being a defining statement. One that sets the bounds of what is and is not an advanced rule. Is it because you must so badly have Unit Type rules not listed under Special Rules be basic rules? Why?
Any movement type more than 6" is never noted as advanced, this is a construct entirely made by you.
Not discussing BvA here.
It also doesn't say that it doesn't use Movement Distance, so clearly it can.
Artillery models do not move, if I use a flamer and kill the entire crew, the artillery piece will sit there, unable to move.
They are not all classified as Artillery, for example if you take the Thunderfire Cannon, if you destroy the cannon the Techmarine is still an IC.
The crew are Infantry or whatever regardless of being attached to the Artillery.
In the reverse if you kill the Techmarine the cannon becomes a decoration.
Then you fail at understanding the difference between models and units, as is evidenced by attributing advanced rules for specific models to unit types.
Artillery UNITS move, Artillery MODELS do not move.
It is not my assumption, we were told Infantry would be explained, and they were. You cannot prove that is not the case.
The movement phase does reference this I have quoted it 1000x times and it is one of the things you disregard, I can practically recite it by memory.
THE MOVEMENT PHASE For the time being, we’ll just explain how squads of Infantry move, as they are by far the most common units in the game. Vehicles, Jump units, Bikes and certain other
units move in different ways to represent their greater mobility, and these will be discussed in full detail later in the book, in the Unit Types section (pg61-71).
Looks like it is directing me to unit types to find out about greater mobility.
I am now eagerly awaiting the explanation of Infantry that it just told me I would get.
I have no issues with Thrust Move. It is used in the assault phase by this unit type. Charge moves reference the movement phase rules, so does this.
CHARACTERISTIC PROFILES
- Other Important Information
In addition to its characteristics profile, each model will have a unit type, such as Infantry or Monstrous Creature, which we discuss in the Unit Types section.
- Vehicle Characteristics
In the Warhammer 40,000 universe, there are many tanks, war machines and other combat vehicles, both human-built and alien.
Vehicle characteristics are described in the vehicles section.
Physical BRB includes page number references here as well.
A Unit Type is defined as pertaining to something a model will have in addition to its characteristics.
This makes unit types basic rules.
I need you to quote where it states "Models move 6" is the standard and only movement value" You have never once quoted the BRB on it, and after all this time I have to assume it is a complete construct by you. You are making an extrapolation based on one reading of Basic rules definition and ignoring the defined bounds of advanced rules. Such as specific models, vs Units.
Your BvA interpretation is flawed because you are correlating models to units on your own.
Movement is part of its Unit Type which is an addition its profile per Models and Units.
It doesn't go beyond the distance provided. We are told to reference unit types in Models and Units and told again in The Movement Phase.
You are extrapolating the explanation of Infantry to a standard for all models.
Why not? I didn't write the book. Probably because they didn't want to add special rules into Core Rules and make the phases convoluted.
They did tell us to reference the Unit Type section and that they had greater mobility...
If you could avoid the tangents, unless you are willing to entertain that your "models move up to 6" isn't absolute then other questions are meaningless about Unit Types.
As until that changes you will have it as a premise for any other discussion.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/30 03:49:14
This thread apears to be getting off topic. Unless people wish to discuss the question posed, which has nothing to do with basic rules vs advanced rules, I'm going to ask for a thread lock.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/30 13:27:27
Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia
Happyjew wrote: This thread apears to be getting off topic. Unless people wish to discuss the question posed, which has nothing to do with basic rules vs advanced rules, I'm going to ask for a thread lock.
I will just PM him.
As for deepstrike/outflank consensus I think we have it.
Col has been requested to supply a rule that allows him to ignore following the rest of the rules for deep strike, aside from that it seems like most agree that you can't use part of a rule.
Ceann wrote: Any movement type more than 6" is never noted as advanced, this is a construct entirely made by you.
It is because it is not basic and one of the noted reasons why some units are not Infantry models. Artillery and Monstrous Creatures do not mention movement. Why? Because they follow the basic rules for Movement, just like Infantry.
Then be more clear, I do not have the dead tree version. I guess you forgot that.
Ceann wrote: It also doesn't say that it doesn't use Movement Distance, so clearly it can.
Oh, so Infantry movement IS the standard? It's the only way this works.
Ceann wrote: Artillery models do not move, if I use a flamer and kill the entire crew, the artillery piece will sit there, unable to move.
They are not all classified as Artillery, for example if you take the Thunderfire Cannon, if you destroy the cannon the Techmarine is still an IC.
The crew are Infantry or whatever regardless of being attached to the Artillery.
In the reverse if you kill the Techmarine the cannon becomes a decoration.
Then you fail at understanding the difference between models and units, as is evidenced by attributing advanced rules for specific models to unit types.
Artillery UNITS move, Artillery MODELS do not move.
Incorrect. The gretchin in the Mek Guns unit, the Techmarine Gunner in the Thunderfire Cannon unit, and Guardian Crew for the Vaul's Wrath Support Battery unit are all listed as Artillery. The only Infantry in any of them is the Warlock in the Vaul's Wrath Support Battery unit, and he's a Character.
So, unless you are saying that a gretchin, Techmarine, and Guardian crew cannot move, you don't know what you're talking about. Considering that what I quoted to you demonstrates there is an internal difference between types of Artillery models and you ignored that also demonstrates some lack of reading on your part.
I'm not going to bother addressing the rest except this next part.
Ceann wrote: If you could avoid the tangents, unless you are willing to entertain that your "models move up to 6" isn't absolute then other questions are meaningless about Unit Types.
As until that changes you will have it as a premise for any other discussion.
ME avoid the tangents? This has all been YOUR tangent! YOU brought up the argument about Basic vs Advanced in this thread. YOU brought up the discussion on Movement in this thread.
You have not bothered to properly address the questions that have been asked of you. You give the answers to questions you want to have asked. So do not be placing the blame on me. I had a feeling I should have done this earlier, and now I will. Be known to the ranks I hold Col_Ignored in.
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
Happyjew wrote: This thread apears to be getting off topic. Unless people wish to discuss the question posed, which has nothing to do with basic rules vs advanced rules, I'm going to ask for a thread lock.
I will just PM him.
As for deepstrike/outflank consensus I think we have it.
Col has been requested to supply a rule that allows him to ignore following the rest of the rules for deep strike, aside from that it seems like most agree that you can't use part of a rule.
You failed to address my counterpoint above.
The Deep Strike rule is never ignored. The second half of the Deep Strike rule is simply never triggered since the unit elected Moving On From Reserves instead. The Reserves rule is never overridden since BvA does not apply.
The unit is in both Reserves and Deep Strike Reserves. When the player makes the Roll for Reserves he simply elects to use the permission to Move on From Reserves. The permission is still there and no rule has taken that permission away.
Spoiler:
When Reserves arrive, pick one of your arriving units and deploy it, moving it onto the table as described below. Then pick another arriving unit and deploy it, and so on until all arriving units are on the table. The player can then proceed to move his other units as normal. Note that you must first roll for all Reserves, and then move any arriving Reserves, before any other units can move.
Moving On From Reserve
When a Reserves unit arrives, it must move onto the table from the controlling player’s table edge. Measure the model’s move from the edge of the table, as if they had been positioned just off the board in the previous turn.
Summary of Argument
Spoiler:
The rules indicate that only those units that 'must arrive by Deep Strike' will have no choice but to arrive by Deep Strike.
Some units must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike.
A unit with the Deep Strike rule could choose to instead arrive from Reserves invoking normal infantry permissions and walking on the battlefield.
The Deep Strike rules require that you merely announce that you will be arriving via Deep Strike. But announcing does not restrict you from arriving via the general permission to walk on the battlefield from Reserves. The general permission is still completely available and has not been removed by any rule, special or otherwise. The Deep Strike rule specifically places you in Reserves AND Deep Strike Reserves, keeping the option to walk on the battlefield from Reserves open.
For comparison, note that Outflank is written in such a way that all other options are removed.
Outflank
During deployment, players can declare that any unit that contains at least one modelwith this special rule is attempting to Outflank the enemy.
When this unit arrives from Reserves, but not Ongoing Reserve, the controlling player rolls a D6: on a 1-2, the unit comes in from the table edge to the left of their controlling player’s own table edge; on a 3-4, they come on from the right; on a 5-6, the player can choose left or right. Models move onto the table as described for other Reserves.
Outflank takes away the permission to walk on from Reserves. Deep Strike does not. A unit that has announced that it will be Deep Striking is placed both in Reserves and Deep Strike Reserves, leaving the option open to walk on from Reserves when it comes time to roll for Reserves.
The player must announce that the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike, but - and this is the big but - there is no rule in place requiring the player to actually have that unit arrive by Deep Strike. Outflank provides this but Deep Strike does not.
Announcing is not levying a restriction.
When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve).
The rule is 100% satisfied by merely telling your opponent "the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike". End of story. That's what the rule literally requires. What amounts to 'a declaration of intent to Deep Strike'.
If you later change your mind and have the unit walk on the battlefield from Reserves the rule is still satisfied. You told your opponent "the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike" and that act of telling (declaring intent) is all that was required.
Pay attention to what the rule is actually requiring and not what you think it is requiring.
"You must tell your opponent that [the unit] will be arriving by Deep Strike" does not mean "the unit must arrive by Deep Strike".
Technically, the player still has the option of changing his mind when it comes to Rolling for Reserves and having the unit walk on the battlefield and not Deep Strike onto the battlefield.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/30 19:12:46
Happyjew wrote: This thread apears to be getting off topic. Unless people wish to discuss the question posed, which has nothing to do with basic rules vs advanced rules, I'm going to ask for a thread lock.
I will just PM him.
As for deepstrike/outflank consensus I think we have it.
Col has been requested to supply a rule that allows him to ignore following the rest of the rules for deep strike, aside from that it seems like most agree that you can't use part of a rule.
You failed to address my counterpoint above.
The Deep Strike rule is never ignored. The second half of the Deep Strike rule is simply never triggered since the unit elected Moving On From Reserves instead. The Reserves rule is never overridden since BvA does not apply.
The unit is in both Reserves and Deep Strike Reserves. When the player makes the Roll for Reserves he simply elects to use the permission to Move on From Reserves. The permission is still there and no rule has taken that permission away.
Spoiler:
When Reserves arrive, pick one of your arriving units and deploy it, moving it onto the table as described below. Then pick another arriving unit and deploy it, and so on until all arriving units are on the table. The player can then proceed to move his other units as normal. Note that you must first roll for all Reserves, and then move any arriving Reserves, before any other units can move.
Moving On From Reserve
When a Reserves unit arrives, it must move onto the table from the controlling player’s table edge. Measure the model’s move from the edge of the table, as if they had been positioned just off the board in the previous turn.
Summary of Argument
Spoiler:
The rules indicate that only those units that 'must arrive by Deep Strike' will have no choice but to arrive by Deep Strike.
Some units must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike.
A unit with the Deep Strike rule could choose to instead arrive from Reserves invoking normal infantry permissions and walking on the battlefield.
The Deep Strike rules require that you merely announce that you will be arriving via Deep Strike. But announcing does not restrict you from arriving via the general permission to walk on the battlefield from Reserves. The general permission is still completely available and has not been removed by any rule, special or otherwise. The Deep Strike rule specifically places you in Reserves AND Deep Strike Reserves, keeping the option to walk on the battlefield from Reserves open.
For comparison, note that Outflank is written in such a way that all other options are removed.
Outflank
During deployment, players can declare that any unit that contains at least one modelwith this special rule is attempting to Outflank the enemy.
When this unit arrives from Reserves, but not Ongoing Reserve, the controlling player rolls a D6: on a 1-2, the unit comes in from the table edge to the left of their controlling player’s own table edge; on a 3-4, they come on from the right; on a 5-6, the player can choose left or right. Models move onto the table as described for other Reserves.
Outflank takes away the permission to walk on from Reserves. Deep Strike does not. A unit that has announced that it will be Deep Striking is placed both in Reserves and Deep Strike Reserves, leaving the option open to walk on from Reserves when it comes time to roll for Reserves.
The player must announce that the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike, but - and this is the big but - there is no rule in place requiring the player to actually have that unit arrive by Deep Strike. Outflank provides this but Deep Strike does not.
Announcing is not levying a restriction.
When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve).
The rule is 100% satisfied by merely telling your opponent "the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike". End of story. That's what the rule literally requires. What amounts to 'a declaration of intent to Deep Strike'.
If you later change your mind and have the unit walk on the battlefield from Reserves the rule is still satisfied. You told your opponent "the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike" and that act of telling (declaring intent) is all that was required.
Pay attention to what the rule is actually requiring and not what you think it is requiring.
"You must tell your opponent that [the unit] will be arriving by Deep Strike" does not mean "the unit must arrive by Deep Strike".
Technically, the player still has the option of changing his mind when it comes to Rolling for Reserves and having the unit walk on the battlefield and not Deep Strike onto the battlefield.
You don't have a counterpoint, you only think that you do.
Deepstrike is further restrictive and a subcategory of reserves.
When the "start of your turn" occurs, it is immediately prompting you to roll for deep strike reserves.
This happens every turn "at the start of your turn" since you placed them into deep strike reserves this happens automatically.
Since you have a pending roll to resolve for deep strike, as soon as it is your turn, you are "electing" that it doesn't exist.
Deepstrike reserve is the form of reserves under which they were replaced, so the roll is for that.
If you had a unit that had outflank and deep strike, you couldn't opt to roll 3 times on your turn, for each different type of deployment option.
You roll for the reserve method they were placed in.
By deep striking, we are not breaking the rules of any rule.
By walking onto the board, we are breaking the rules of deep strike.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/30 19:28:44
You don't have a counterpoint, you only think that you do.
Deepstrike is further restrictive and a subcategory of reserves.
When the "start of your turn" occurs, it is immediately prompting you to roll for deep strike reserves.
This happens every turn "at the start of your turn" since you placed them into deep strike reserves this happens automatically.
Since you have a pending roll to resolve for deep strike, as soon as it is your turn, you are "electing" that it doesn't exist.
Deepstrike reserve is the form of reserves under which they were replaced, so the roll is for that.
If you had a unit that had outflank and deep strike, you couldn't opt to roll 3 times on your turn, for each different type of deployment option.
You roll for the reserve method they were placed in.
There is no 'pending roll' for deep strike. If my unit elects to Move On From Reserve then there is no Deep Striking unit.
The unit is in both Reserves and Deep Strike Reserves. When the player makes the Roll for Reserves he simply elects to use the permission to Move on From Reserves.
Spoiler:
Arriving from Reserve
At the start of your second turn, you must roll a D6 for each unit in your army that is being held in Reserve – these are known as Reserve Rolls. If the roll is a 3 or more, that unit arrives this turn. If the roll is less than 3 it remains in Reserve and is rolled for again next turn.
At the start of your third turn, roll for any units remaining in Reserve. If the roll is a 3 or more, that unit arrives this turn. If the roll is less than 3, it remains in Reserve and automatically arrives at the start of your fourth turn.
Some special rules can modify the roll required for a unit to arrive from Reserve.
Regardless of the modifier(s), a natural roll of a 1 always means that the unit in question remains in Reserve.
When Reserves arrive, pick one of your arriving units and deploy it, moving it onto the table as described below. Then pick another arriving unit and deploy it, and so on until all arriving units are on the table. The player can then proceed to move his other units as normal. Note that you must first roll for all Reserves, and then move any arriving Reserves, before any other units can move.
Moving On From Reserve
When a Reserves unit arrives, it must move onto the table from the controlling player’s table edge. Measure the model’s move from the edge of the table, as if they had been positioned just off the board in the previous turn.
The above permission is still there and no rule has taken that permission away.
The burden is on you to show that permission taken away. Otherwise the unit simply uses it. Remember BvA does not apply.
By deep striking, we are not breaking the rules of any rule.
By walking onto the board, we are breaking the rules of deep strike.
No rule is broken when the unit elects to Move On From Reserve. The second half of the Deep Strike rule is simply never triggered. Rules only apply when their condition for application is met.
Summary of Argument
Spoiler:
The rules indicate that only those units that 'must arrive by Deep Strike' will have no choice but to arrive by Deep Strike.
Some units must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike.
A unit with the Deep Strike rule could choose to instead arrive from Reserves invoking normal infantry permissions and walking on the battlefield.
The Deep Strike rules require that you merely announce that you will be arriving via Deep Strike. But announcing does not restrict you from arriving via the general permission to walk on the battlefield from Reserves. The general permission is still completely available and has not been removed by any rule, special or otherwise. The Deep Strike rule specifically places you in Reserves AND Deep Strike Reserves, keeping the option to walk on the battlefield from Reserves open.
For comparison, note that Outflank is written in such a way that all other options are removed.
Outflank
During deployment, players can declare that any unit that contains at least one modelwith this special rule is attempting to Outflank the enemy.
When this unit arrives from Reserves, but not Ongoing Reserve, the controlling player rolls a D6: on a 1-2, the unit comes in from the table edge to the left of their controlling player’s own table edge; on a 3-4, they come on from the right; on a 5-6, the player can choose left or right. Models move onto the table as described for other Reserves.
Outflank takes away the permission to walk on from Reserves. Deep Strike does not. A unit that has announced that it will be Deep Striking is placed both in Reserves and Deep Strike Reserves, leaving the option open to walk on from Reserves when it comes time to roll for Reserves.
The player must announce that the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike, but - and this is the big but - there is no rule in place requiring the player to actually have that unit arrive by Deep Strike. Outflank provides this but Deep Strike does not.
Announcing is not levying a restriction.
When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve).
The rule is 100% satisfied by merely telling your opponent "the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike". End of story. That's what the rule literally requires. What amounts to 'a declaration of intent to Deep Strike'.
If you later change your mind and have the unit walk on the battlefield from Reserves the rule is still satisfied. You told your opponent "the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike" and that act of telling (declaring intent) is all that was required.
Pay attention to what the rule is actually requiring and not what you think it is requiring.
"You must tell your opponent that [the unit] will be arriving by Deep Strike" does not mean "the unit must arrive by Deep Strike".
Technically, the player still has the option of changing his mind when it comes to Rolling for Reserves and having the unit walk on the battlefield and not Deep Strike onto the battlefield.
This message was edited 11 times. Last update was at 2017/04/30 20:19:54
You don't have a counterpoint, you only think that you do.
Deepstrike is further restrictive and a subcategory of reserves.
When the "start of your turn" occurs, it is immediately prompting you to roll for deep strike reserves.
This happens every turn "at the start of your turn" since you placed them into deep strike reserves this happens automatically.
Since you have a pending roll to resolve for deep strike, as soon as it is your turn, you are "electing" that it doesn't exist.
Deepstrike reserve is the form of reserves under which they were replaced, so the roll is for that.
If you had a unit that had outflank and deep strike, you couldn't opt to roll 3 times on your turn, for each different type of deployment option.
You roll for the reserve method they were placed in.
There is no 'pending roll' for deep strike. If my unit elects to Move On From Reserve then there is no Deep Striking unit.
The unit is in both Reserves and Deep Strike Reserves. When the player makes the Roll for Reserves he simply elects to use the permission to Move on From Reserves.
Spoiler:
Arriving from Reserve
At the start of your second turn, you must roll a D6 for each unit in your army that is being held in Reserve – these are known as Reserve Rolls. If the roll is a 3 or more, that unit arrives this turn. If the roll is less than 3 it remains in Reserve and is rolled for again next turn.
At the start of your third turn, roll for any units remaining in Reserve. If the roll is a 3 or more, that unit arrives this turn. If the roll is less than 3, it remains in Reserve and automatically arrives at the start of your fourth turn.
Some special rules can modify the roll required for a unit to arrive from Reserve.
Regardless of the modifier(s), a natural roll of a 1 always means that the unit in question remains in Reserve.
When Reserves arrive, pick one of your arriving units and deploy it, moving it onto the table as described below. Then pick another arriving unit and deploy it, and so on until all arriving units are on the table. The player can then proceed to move his other units as normal. Note that you must first roll for all Reserves, and then move any arriving Reserves, before any other units can move.
Moving On From Reserve
When a Reserves unit arrives, it must move onto the table from the controlling player’s table edge. Measure the model’s move from the edge of the table, as if they had been positioned just off the board in the previous turn.
The above permission is still there and no rule has taken that permission away.
The burden is on you to show that permission taken away. Otherwise the unit simply uses it. Remember BvA does not apply.
By deep striking, we are not breaking the rules of any rule.
By walking onto the board, we are breaking the rules of deep strike.
No rule is broken when the unit elects to Move On From Reserve. The second half of the Deep Strike rule is simply never triggered. Rules only apply when their condition for application is met.
Summary of Argument
Spoiler:
The rules indicate that only those units that 'must arrive by Deep Strike' will have no choice but to arrive by Deep Strike.
Some units must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike.
A unit with the Deep Strike rule could choose to instead arrive from Reserves invoking normal infantry permissions and walking on the battlefield.
The Deep Strike rules require that you merely announce that you will be arriving via Deep Strike. But announcing does not restrict you from arriving via the general permission to walk on the battlefield from Reserves. The general permission is still completely available and has not been removed by any rule, special or otherwise. The Deep Strike rule specifically places you in Reserves AND Deep Strike Reserves, keeping the option to walk on the battlefield from Reserves open.
For comparison, note that Outflank is written in such a way that all other options are removed.
Outflank
During deployment, players can declare that any unit that contains at least one modelwith this special rule is attempting to Outflank the enemy.
When this unit arrives from Reserves, but not Ongoing Reserve, the controlling player rolls a D6: on a 1-2, the unit comes in from the table edge to the left of their controlling player’s own table edge; on a 3-4, they come on from the right; on a 5-6, the player can choose left or right. Models move onto the table as described for other Reserves.
Outflank takes away the permission to walk on from Reserves. Deep Strike does not. A unit that has announced that it will be Deep Striking is placed both in Reserves and Deep Strike Reserves, leaving the option open to walk on from Reserves when it comes time to roll for Reserves.
The player must announce that the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike, but - and this is the big but - there is no rule in place requiring the player to actually have that unit arrive by Deep Strike. Outflank provides this but Deep Strike does not.
Announcing is not levying a restriction.
When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve).
The rule is 100% satisfied by merely telling your opponent "the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike". End of story. That's what the rule literally requires. What amounts to 'a declaration of intent to Deep Strike'.
If you later change your mind and have the unit walk on the battlefield from Reserves the rule is still satisfied. You told your opponent "the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike" and that act of telling (declaring intent) is all that was required.
Pay attention to what the rule is actually requiring and not what you think it is requiring.
"You must tell your opponent that [the unit] will be arriving by Deep Strike" does not mean "the unit must arrive by Deep Strike".
Technically, the player still has the option of changing his mind when it comes to Rolling for Reserves and having the unit walk on the battlefield and not Deep Strike onto the battlefield.
Wrong.
Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves...
This happens at the same time, for all units you have reserves, regardless of which form of reserves, the moment it is your turn. You may not have yet rolled for it, but it is waiting for you to roll.
You might be able to choose the sequence you perform the rolls in, but it is still waiting for you to perform the roll.
You cannot for example, choose a unit and decide to not roll for it to arrive.
The rules for outflank do not dictate the rules for rolling for reserves, neither does deep strike.
These rules dictate how you arrive/deploy.
By using the Deep Strike rule as a deployment option, when you stated it, you are subjecting yourself to following the rules for it.
Just like if you choose to fire a plasma weapon, you are subjecting yourself to rolling for "Gets Hot". You don't HAVE to use that weapon, you chose too.
Deep Strike tells you to use the rules ARRIVING, the rules for arriving are...
"At the start of your second turn, you must roll a D6 for each unit in your army that is
being held in Reserve – these are known as Reserve Rolls. If the roll is a 3 or more, that
unit arrives this turn. If the roll is less than 3 it remains in Reserve and is rolled for again
next turn."
Deep Strike does not tell you to use the rules for reserves for "Moving on from reserve"
Maybe that is where you were confused, the rules for "Arriving from Reserves" only dictate how to perform the d6 roll.
They do not determine how you deploy, those rules were not referenced by deep strike.
If you prefer we can ask the OP to put it to a vote and leave it at that, however I don't see anyone else advocating for your position.
You seem intent on not changing your mind "as usual" so further discussion with you is pointless on the topic.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/04/30 21:01:04
Wrong.
Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves...
This happens at the same time, for all units you have reserves, regardless of which form of reserves, the moment it is your turn. You may not have yet rolled for it, but it is waiting for you to roll.
You might be able to choose the sequence you perform the rolls in, but it is still waiting for you to perform the roll.
You cannot for example, choose a unit and decide to not roll for it to arrive.
The rules for outflank do not dictate the rules for rolling for reserves, neither does deep strike.
These rules dictate how you arrive/deploy.
If you prefer we can ask the OP to put it to a vote and leave it at that, however I don't see anyone else advocating for your position.
You seem intent on not changing your mind "as usual" so further discussion with you is pointless on the topic.
There is no "at the same time". The active player chooses the order in which to apply permissions in the cases of any conflict. Remember BvA does not apply so the rules for Deep Strike do not override the rules for Reserves.
The player expends the roll when the unit elects to arrive by Moving On From Reserves. There is no Deep Striking unit to roll for.
The permission to arrive by Moving On From Reserves is still there and no rule has taken that permission away.
The burden is on you to show that permission taken away. Otherwise the unit simply uses it.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2017/04/30 22:43:02
2017/05/01 15:28:09
Subject: Re:Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves
You keep forgetting the rest of BvA you are too laser focused on a single sentence.
I'd dispute that because there's been more than one sentence there I've worked with, along with the quote from the start of the core rules section which you want to ignore.
Ceann wrote: Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale.
A Calvary unit moving 12" is using the rules for movement, the movement rules state they are permitted to move their maximum distance. It is not breaking any rule.
Basic rules say a unit moves 6". It's the first statement in movement distance. A unit moving their "maximum" distance runs into the problem that the basic rules say they move 6". There is no mechanism in the rules provided for adjudicating basic vs. basic rules except for d6'ing it if you can't agree with your opponent. So, obviously there's something else going on. You still have a basic limitation of 6" uniess sometthing overrides it. Being told Cavalry can move 12" is an ADVANCED rule, overriding the BASIC statement that units move 6". The fact that the Unit Type rules are outside the Core Rules section should be a clue, as should the cavalry rules not applying to all models (a qualification we are given for advanced rules in the sidebar).
How can a boltgun be an advanced rule? In order to BE an advanced rule you HAVE to be conflicting with a basic rule. If there is no gun that is THE "basic rule" then no weapon can be an advanced rule because it has NOTHING to conflict with. The only thing a weapon can conflict with are the rules for shooting or the rules for assault.
Your argument holds no water in practice.
A model with a boltgun is cited as an example of having a special rule in the Basic vs. Advanced boxout itself. If you have a problem with that, take it up with Games Workshop. As to why it would be considered an advanced rule, then we see that advanced rules apply to specific equopment and not to every model like we are told basic rules apply to. So, the only thing making a boltgun special would be the boltgun profile, which is something not every model/ every weapon has (at least not every one having the exact same weapon profile) Your problem here seems to be similar to the problem you have with units. The basic rules indicate that units have a unit type, but don't get into details about what that means - that's saved for the advanced rules (as indicated by Unit Type rules NOT being in the Core Rules section). For weapons, we're told as a basic rule that all weapons have a profile, but we're not given the specific profile in the basic rules - they save that for the appendix (again, outside the Core Rules section). A basic rule that gives a rudimentary indication that something exists but does not provide details does not make details for specific things later basic rules in and of themselves. .
2017/05/01 15:32:51
Subject: Re:Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves
doctortom wrote: A model with a boltgun is cited as an example of having a special rule in the Basic vs. Advanced boxout itself. If you have a problem with that, take it up with Games Workshop. As to why it would be considered an advanced rule, then we see that advanced rules apply to specific equopment and not to every model like we are told basic rules apply to. So, the only thing making a boltgun special would be the boltgun profile, which is something not every model/ every weapon has (at least not every one having the exact same weapon profile) Your problem here seems to be similar to the problem you have with units. The basic rules indicate that units have a unit type, but don't get into details about what that means - that's saved for the advanced rules (as indicated by Unit Type rules NOT being in the Core Rules section). For weapons, we're told as a basic rule that all weapons have a profile, but we're not given the specific profile in the basic rules - they save that for the appendix (again, outside the Core Rules section). A basic rule that gives a rudimentary indication that something exists but does not provide details does not make details for specific things later basic rules in and of themselves.
Another interesting side note on the Boltgun is that Rapid Fire goes by some odd rules on determining how many shots are fired, rather than an absolute number, and it prevents a unit from Charging.
If there was any "basic standard" of Shooting Weapons, it would be Assault. It provides a number of shots, it isn't reliant on what happens in the Movement Phase, and it doesn't prevent Charging. But that's if there were any "basic standard" for Shooting Weapons.
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
2017/05/01 15:36:37
Subject: Re:Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves
Yes, that is the question at hand. To be fair, though, the discussion on basic vs advanced was locked because of the back and forth between Ceann and col impact. They're not having the back and forth here like they were there, and I'm waiting for col impact to respond to my last reply to him to see if he's willing to engage in an honest discussion on this.
For the point at hand, I think the differiing outflank rules make clear their intent on how to handle similar situations (of which deep strike is one) even if you are not willing to accept the RAW - we have "When an Outflanking unit arrives from Reserves" in the Special rules for Outflank, but "When this unit arrives from Reserves" for ouflanking embedded in Infiltrate and in Scout special rules. Since they're supposed to be the same rule, it's obvious that "this unit" = "an Outflanking unit". It treats the way it is coming out of Reserves as a qualifier and applies it to the unit; from the two statements they indicate that it is treated as an Outflanking unit from the point it declares it will Outflank and it can't change its mind (otherwise, saying "this unit" forces the unit to Outflank wouldn't be true. So, if that's true that an Outflanking unit is a unit that has declared it it coming in from Reserves via Outflank, then a Deep Striking unit would be a unit that has declared that it will deep strike and will have to follow the rules for bringing in Deep Striking units from the board.
I am not sure what continued discussion on the question at hand is going to bring.
Try it, you might be surprised.
col_impact wrote: [You have already admitted that per the Rules As Written a unit that is placed in Reserves and Deep Strike Reserves can simply elect to walk on the board from Reserves when it comes time to Roll for Reserves. No rule prevents this.
Don't put words in my mouth. I have not "admitted" that, and have argues against it.
col_impact wrote: Now you want to engage in a discussion trying to decipher intent from the clues that GW provides to prop up some imagined rule to add to the rules we have written down. However, there is no need for any speculation. The simplest solution is that Outflanking simply refers to a unit that is using the Outflank rules to actively re-position itself. Outflank-ing, where "-ing" means the process of.
Actually, I duspute your quote, which you don't want to give a page reference for. The quote you gave for Outflank was not the quote in the Outflank special rule. You're basing your whole argument on comparing Outflank to Deep Strike in wording as being different as an example of how permission is stripped via Outflank. "If "When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve)" followed by "Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified..." (page 162) does not strip permissions away to walk on, then how does "During Deployment, players can declare that any unit that contains at least one model with this special rule is attempting to Outflank the enemy." followed by "When an Outflanking unit arrives from Reserves, but not Ongoing Reserve..." (page 168) manage to strip away permission to walk on?
It technically can't Col.
Cite a rule that states you can partially follow a rule.
Please at any time, cite the source, we will wait for you to find it.
Once you "declare" you are putting units in Deep Strike reserve, the "deploy as follows" is already PENDING to be resolved on the reserve rolls. You cannot choose to ignore it.
Rule statements are only followed if they are invoked. The second half of the Deep Strike rules is simply never invoked. A unit that walks on from Reserves will never invoke the Deep Strike rule (unless it goes into Ongoing Reserves).
I'm sorry, but that does not fly. You do not get to invoke half a rule, or part of a rule, and get to ignore the rest of the rule if you find it inconventient. You invoked the first half of the rule by placing them in Reserves and declaring that they will Deep Strike (or Outflank, for units that Outflank). Since you invoked the rule, you must stick with the rest of the rule.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/01 15:42:52
2017/05/01 16:14:11
Subject: Re:Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves
You keep forgetting the rest of BvA you are too laser focused on a single sentence.
I'd dispute that because there's been more than one sentence there I've worked with, along with the quote from the start of the core rules section which you want to ignore.
Ceann wrote: Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale.
A Calvary unit moving 12" is using the rules for movement, the movement rules state they are permitted to move their maximum distance. It is not breaking any rule.
Basic rules say a unit moves 6". It's the first statement in movement distance. A unit moving their "maximum" distance runs into the problem that the basic rules say they move 6". There is no mechanism in the rules provided for adjudicating basic vs. basic rules except for d6'ing it if you can't agree with your opponent. So, obviously there's something else going on. You still have a basic limitation of 6" uniess sometthing overrides it. Being told Cavalry can move 12" is an ADVANCED rule, overriding the BASIC statement that units move 6". The fact that the Unit Type rules are outside the Core Rules section should be a clue, as should the cavalry rules not applying to all models (a qualification we are given for advanced rules in the sidebar).
How can a boltgun be an advanced rule? In order to BE an advanced rule you HAVE to be conflicting with a basic rule. If there is no gun that is THE "basic rule" then no weapon can be an advanced rule because it has NOTHING to conflict with. The only thing a weapon can conflict with are the rules for shooting or the rules for assault.
Your argument holds no water in practice.
A model with a boltgun is cited as an example of having a special rule in the Basic vs. Advanced boxout itself. If you have a problem with that, take it up with Games Workshop. As to why it would be considered an advanced rule, then we see that advanced rules apply to specific equopment and not to every model like we are told basic rules apply to. So, the only thing making a boltgun special would be the boltgun profile, which is something not every model/ every weapon has (at least not every one having the exact same weapon profile) Your problem here seems to be similar to the problem you have with units. The basic rules indicate that units have a unit type, but don't get into details about what that means - that's saved for the advanced rules (as indicated by Unit Type rules NOT being in the Core Rules section). For weapons, we're told as a basic rule that all weapons have a profile, but we're not given the specific profile in the basic rules - they save that for the appendix (again, outside the Core Rules section). A basic rule that gives a rudimentary indication that something exists but does not provide details does not make details for specific things later basic rules in and of themselves. .
Boltgun is cited as an advanced rule to a SPECIFIC model. A detail being ignored.
Units are not specific models.
Buying equipment on an army list entry is an advanced rule, which is what specific models do.
We are told models move up to 6 and then in the next sentence that it represents MOST creatures, not all. Right before we were told that I infantry would be explained, models move 6 is for infantry, not all models.
You are isolating the statement from the others around it.
Nothing needs to be override we have a hooded statement as per the intro as the most important aspect of a rule, that ALL units can move their max distance. Not most, all.
Deepstrike reserve gives you a deepstrike reserve roll. You do not get a reserve roll for every model for every type it has. If a unit has out flank and deep strike you don't get 3 reserve rolls for normal, deepstrike and out flank
I do know the difference. I also know the difference between the rules for a unit type and the basic rules.
We were told we were going to be explained Infantry and we have been explained Infantry.
You can't lean on page 13 because there is no basic vs basic precedence.
Models move up to 6" is INVALIDATED as a standard by "This represents most creatures"
"Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise." Looks like their explantion fits. Then, in the sections with the advanced rules (outside the Core Rules section), we're given the rules for specific units that override this basic rule of moving only 6".
Any movement type more than 6" is never noted as advanced, this is a construct entirely made by you.
Actually, it's a construct of the main rulebook rules, not of Charistoph. It is for a particular non-infantry type (referenced on page 13 as having advanced rules) and being a rule outside the core rules section, which according to page 7 makes it outside the section containing basic rules as new rules. There is no specified distance other than 6" in the core rules section, so that makes that the basic rule. Any other distance specified will be an advance rule that overrides that basic rule.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/01 16:24:35
2017/05/01 16:27:38
Subject: Re:Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves
col_impact wrote: Now you want to engage in a discussion trying to decipher intent from the clues that GW provides to prop up some imagined rule to add to the rules we have written down. However, there is no need for any speculation. The simplest solution is that Outflanking simply refers to a unit that is using the Outflank rules to actively re-position itself. Outflank-ing, where "-ing" means the process of.
Actually, I duspute your quote, which you don't want to give a page reference for. The quote you gave for Outflank was not the quote in the Outflank special rule. You're basing your whole argument on comparing Outflank to Deep Strike in wording as being different as an example of how permission is stripped via Outflank. "If "When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve)" followed by "Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified..." (page 162) does not strip permissions away to walk on, then how does "During Deployment, players can declare that any unit that contains at least one model with this special rule is attempting to Outflank the enemy." followed by "When an Outflanking unit arrives from Reserves, but not Ongoing Reserve..." (page 168) manage to strip away permission to walk on?
The quote I reference technically strips away the permission. The quote you reference technically does not. GW is being inconsistent (not surprisingly) and the logical consequences of each statement is different. So if the player has access to both rule statements then it's their choice which permission they use. The discrepancy in the quotes for Outflanking has no bearing on my argument as I can still point to the one quote as an example where the permission has been stripped.
It technically can't Col.
Cite a rule that states you can partially follow a rule.
Please at any time, cite the source, we will wait for you to find it.
Once you "declare" you are putting units in Deep Strike reserve, the "deploy as follows" is already PENDING to be resolved on the reserve rolls. You cannot choose to ignore it.
Rule statements are only followed if they are invoked. The second half of the Deep Strike rules is simply never invoked. A unit that walks on from Reserves will never invoke the Deep Strike rule (unless it goes into Ongoing Reserves).
I'm sorry, but that does not fly. You do not get to invoke half a rule, or part of a rule, and get to ignore the rest of the rule if you find it inconventient. You invoked the first half of the rule by placing them in Reserves and declaring that they will Deep Strike (or Outflank, for units that Outflank). Since you invoked the rule, you must stick with the rest of the rule.
The full Deep Strike rule is present and never ignored. The second half of the Deep Strike rule is simply never triggered since the unit elected Moving On From Reserves instead. Rules only apply when their condition for application is met.
The unit is in both Reserves and Deep Strike Reserves. When the player makes the Roll for Reserves he simply elects to use the permission to Move on From Reserves.
Spoiler:
Arriving from Reserve
At the start of your second turn, you must roll a D6 for each unit in your army that is being held in Reserve – these are known as Reserve Rolls. If the roll is a 3 or more, that unit arrives this turn. If the roll is less than 3 it remains in Reserve and is rolled for again next turn.
At the start of your third turn, roll for any units remaining in Reserve. If the roll is a 3 or more, that unit arrives this turn. If the roll is less than 3, it remains in Reserve and automatically arrives at the start of your fourth turn.
Some special rules can modify the roll required for a unit to arrive from Reserve.
Regardless of the modifier(s), a natural roll of a 1 always means that the unit in question remains in Reserve.
When Reserves arrive, pick one of your arriving units and deploy it, moving it onto the table as described below. Then pick another arriving unit and deploy it, and so on until all arriving units are on the table. The player can then proceed to move his other units as normal. Note that you must first roll for all Reserves, and then move any arriving Reserves, before any other units can move.
Moving On From Reserve
When a Reserves unit arrives, it must move onto the table from the controlling player’s table edge. Measure the model’s move from the edge of the table, as if they had been positioned just off the board in the previous turn.
The above permission is still there and no rule has taken that permission away.
The burden is on you to show that permission taken away. Otherwise the unit simply uses it. Remember BvA does not apply.
Summary of Argument
Spoiler:
The rules indicate that only those units that 'must arrive by Deep Strike' will have no choice but to arrive by Deep Strike.
Some units must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike.
A unit with the Deep Strike rule could choose to instead arrive from Reserves invoking normal infantry permissions and walking on the battlefield.
The Deep Strike rules require that you merely announce that you will be arriving via Deep Strike. But announcing does not restrict you from arriving via the general permission to walk on the battlefield from Reserves. The general permission is still completely available and has not been removed by any rule, special or otherwise. The Deep Strike rule specifically places you in Reserves AND Deep Strike Reserves, keeping the option to walk on the battlefield from Reserves open.
For comparison, note that Outflank is written in such a way that all other options are removed.
Outflank
During deployment, players can declare that any unit that contains at least one modelwith this special rule is attempting to Outflank the enemy.
When this unit arrives from Reserves, but not Ongoing Reserve, the controlling player rolls a D6: on a 1-2, the unit comes in from the table edge to the left of their controlling player’s own table edge; on a 3-4, they come on from the right; on a 5-6, the player can choose left or right. Models move onto the table as described for other Reserves.
Outflank takes away the permission to walk on from Reserves. Deep Strike does not. A unit that has announced that it will be Deep Striking is placed both in Reserves and Deep Strike Reserves, leaving the option open to walk on from Reserves when it comes time to roll for Reserves.
The player must announce that the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike, but - and this is the big but - there is no rule in place requiring the player to actually have that unit arrive by Deep Strike. Outflank provides this but Deep Strike does not.
Announcing is not levying a restriction.
When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve).
The rule is 100% satisfied by merely telling your opponent "the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike". End of story. That's what the rule literally requires. What amounts to 'a declaration of intent to Deep Strike'.
If you later change your mind and have the unit walk on the battlefield from Reserves the rule is still satisfied. You told your opponent "the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike" and that act of telling (declaring intent) is all that was required.
Pay attention to what the rule is actually requiring and not what you think it is requiring.
"You must tell your opponent that [the unit] will be arriving by Deep Strike" does not mean "the unit must arrive by Deep Strike".
Technically, the player still has the option of changing his mind when it comes to Rolling for Reserves and having the unit walk on the battlefield and not Deep Strike onto the battlefield.
2017/05/01 16:45:01
Subject: Re:Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves
col_impact wrote: Now you want to engage in a discussion trying to decipher intent from the clues that GW provides to prop up some imagined rule to add to the rules we have written down. However, there is no need for any speculation. The simplest solution is that Outflanking simply refers to a unit that is using the Outflank rules to actively re-position itself. Outflank-ing, where "-ing" means the process of.
Actually, I duspute your quote, which you don't want to give a page reference for. The quote you gave for Outflank was not the quote in the Outflank special rule. You're basing your whole argument on comparing Outflank to Deep Strike in wording as being different as an example of how permission is stripped via Outflank. "If "When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve)" followed by "Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified..." (page 162) does not strip permissions away to walk on, then how does "During Deployment, players can declare that any unit that contains at least one model with this special rule is attempting to Outflank the enemy." followed by "When an Outflanking unit arrives from Reserves, but not Ongoing Reserve..." (page 168) manage to strip away permission to walk on?
The quote I reference technically strips away the permission. The quote you reference technically does not. GW is being inconsistent (not surprisingly) and the logical consequences of each statement is different. So if the player has access to both rule statements then it's their choice which permission they use. The discrepancy in the quotes for Outflanking has no bearing on my argument as I can still point to the one quote as an example where the permission has been stripped.
It technically can't Col.
Cite a rule that states you can partially follow a rule.
Please at any time, cite the source, we will wait for you to find it.
Once you "declare" you are putting units in Deep Strike reserve, the "deploy as follows" is already PENDING to be resolved on the reserve rolls. You cannot choose to ignore it.
Rule statements are only followed if they are invoked. The second half of the Deep Strike rules is simply never invoked. A unit that walks on from Reserves will never invoke the Deep Strike rule (unless it goes into Ongoing Reserves).
I'm sorry, but that does not fly. You do not get to invoke half a rule, or part of a rule, and get to ignore the rest of the rule if you find it inconventient. You invoked the first half of the rule by placing them in Reserves and declaring that they will Deep Strike (or Outflank, for units that Outflank). Since you invoked the rule, you must stick with the rest of the rule.
The full Deep Strike rule is present and never ignored. The second half of the Deep Strike rule is simply never triggered since the unit elected Moving On From Reserves instead. Rules only apply when their condition for application is met.
The unit is in both Reserves and Deep Strike Reserves. When the player makes the Roll for Reserves he simply elects to use the permission to Move on From Reserves.
Spoiler:
Arriving from Reserve
At the start of your second turn, you must roll a D6 for each unit in your army that is being held in Reserve – these are known as Reserve Rolls. If the roll is a 3 or more, that unit arrives this turn. If the roll is less than 3 it remains in Reserve and is rolled for again next turn.
At the start of your third turn, roll for any units remaining in Reserve. If the roll is a 3 or more, that unit arrives this turn. If the roll is less than 3, it remains in Reserve and automatically arrives at the start of your fourth turn.
Some special rules can modify the roll required for a unit to arrive from Reserve.
Regardless of the modifier(s), a natural roll of a 1 always means that the unit in question remains in Reserve.
When Reserves arrive, pick one of your arriving units and deploy it, moving it onto the table as described below. Then pick another arriving unit and deploy it, and so on until all arriving units are on the table. The player can then proceed to move his other units as normal. Note that you must first roll for all Reserves, and then move any arriving Reserves, before any other units can move.
Moving On From Reserve
When a Reserves unit arrives, it must move onto the table from the controlling player’s table edge. Measure the model’s move from the edge of the table, as if they had been positioned just off the board in the previous turn.
The above permission is still there and no rule has taken that permission away.
The burden is on you to show that permission taken away. Otherwise the unit simply uses it. Remember BvA does not apply.
Summary of Argument
Spoiler:
The rules indicate that only those units that 'must arrive by Deep Strike' will have no choice but to arrive by Deep Strike.
Some units must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike.
A unit with the Deep Strike rule could choose to instead arrive from Reserves invoking normal infantry permissions and walking on the battlefield.
The Deep Strike rules require that you merely announce that you will be arriving via Deep Strike. But announcing does not restrict you from arriving via the general permission to walk on the battlefield from Reserves. The general permission is still completely available and has not been removed by any rule, special or otherwise. The Deep Strike rule specifically places you in Reserves AND Deep Strike Reserves, keeping the option to walk on the battlefield from Reserves open.
For comparison, note that Outflank is written in such a way that all other options are removed.
Outflank
During deployment, players can declare that any unit that contains at least one modelwith this special rule is attempting to Outflank the enemy.
When this unit arrives from Reserves, but not Ongoing Reserve, the controlling player rolls a D6: on a 1-2, the unit comes in from the table edge to the left of their controlling player’s own table edge; on a 3-4, they come on from the right; on a 5-6, the player can choose left or right. Models move onto the table as described for other Reserves.
Outflank takes away the permission to walk on from Reserves. Deep Strike does not. A unit that has announced that it will be Deep Striking is placed both in Reserves and Deep Strike Reserves, leaving the option open to walk on from Reserves when it comes time to roll for Reserves.
The player must announce that the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike, but - and this is the big but - there is no rule in place requiring the player to actually have that unit arrive by Deep Strike. Outflank provides this but Deep Strike does not.
Announcing is not levying a restriction.
When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve).
The rule is 100% satisfied by merely telling your opponent "the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike". End of story. That's what the rule literally requires. What amounts to 'a declaration of intent to Deep Strike'.
If you later change your mind and have the unit walk on the battlefield from Reserves the rule is still satisfied. You told your opponent "the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike" and that act of telling (declaring intent) is all that was required.
Pay attention to what the rule is actually requiring and not what you think it is requiring.
"You must tell your opponent that [the unit] will be arriving by Deep Strike" does not mean "the unit must arrive by Deep Strike".
Technically, the player still has the option of changing his mind when it comes to Rolling for Reserves and having the unit walk on the battlefield and not Deep Strike onto the battlefield.
It is triggered, at the start of your turn, because it is in deepstrike reserve. Before you even pick up your dice to roll, it is already triggered.
Boltgun is cited as an advanced rule to a SPECIFIC model. A detail being ignored.
Units are not specific models.
Buying equipment on an army list entry is an advanced rule, which is what specific models do.
So? Advanced rules are not limited to units, as it appears you are thinking. The fact that mission special rules exist should clue you in on that. Just because they cited a location for advanced rules for units does not mean units are the only thing with advanced rules.
We are told models move up to 6 and then in the next sentence that it represents MOST creatures, not all.
Earlier you argued that the 6" was an example because they were giving it for infantry. Now, you're saying it's for most creatures.
Ceann wrote: Right before we were told that I infantry would be explained, models move 6 is for infantry, not all models.
You are isolating the statement from the others around it.
I'm not isolating the statement. It's the lead statement in Movement Distance. They give the explanation for it later, it's because most units (not just infantry) move 6". I gave you the quote from page 13 that covers a basic rule not covering all models, this is a stated example if you go with the explanation right after the statement. See? Not isolating the sentence at all. You just prefer to ignore the sentence totally, which you are not given permission to do in the basic rules section.
Ceann wrote: Nothing needs to be override we have a hooded statement as per the intro as the most important aspect of a rule, that ALL units can move their max distance. Not most, all.
Wrong, completely wrong. It's still a basic rule stated plainly in the core rules section. That not all units move it means only that you can expect advanced rules for specific units that will override the rule for moving 6". In order for the movement rules for the different units to be basic rules for all the units, they would have had to state in a sentence and/or show on a table in the core rules section the exact movement distance for each type of unit. That they didn't indicates that they don't consider the movement rules for other typse of units, when they differ, as basic rules.
Deepstrike reserve gives you a deepstrike reserve roll. You do not get a reserve roll for every model for every type it has. If a unit has out flank and deep strike you don't get 3 reserve rolls for normal, deepstrike and out flank
Or, more technically, it gives you a Reserves roll as a Deep Striking unit. But you still follow the Deep Strike rules for their arrival, having invoked the Deep Strike rule when placing them in Reserves. I agree with you here. You don't get to invoke the rules for an Independent Character to be attached to a unit by placing him with the unit in Reserves, then just before rolling getting to change your mind after seeing what's happened on the battlefield and say "No, I was only kidding. He wasn't attached to the unit after all when I put him in."
2017/05/01 17:11:20
Subject: Re:Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves
col_impact wrote: technically strips away the permission. The quote you reference technically does not. GW is being inconsistent (not surprisingly) and the logical consequences of each statement is different. So if the player has access to both rule statements then it's their choice which permission they use. The discrepancy in the quotes for Outflanking has no bearing on my argument as I can still point to the one quote as an example where the permission has been stripped.
And if they don't? I know of at least one Warlord Trait in Waaagh!!! Ghazghkull that says a unit gains Outflank, so there are times where you don't get both. Also, it seems pretty dubious that the same rule can either strip permission away or not strip it away if it's doing the same thing. If your version strips it away, doesn't that indicate that they don't have the permission, and therefore would not have the permission with the other wording either?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/01 17:13:35
2017/05/01 19:35:09
Subject: Re:Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves
The section on Unit Types contains the basic rules for each unit type respectively, while specific models within those Unit Types will have Advanced Rules and Special Rules specific to that model. Example given,
Stormrider: Unit Type Vehicle (Chariot, Open-topped) and as such will follow all basic rules for that Unit Type for the Movement phase, Shooting phase, and Assault Phase. The specific model, Stormrider, has Advanced Rules that give it a 4++, turn all glances into pens, and give Logan additional attacks with the Special Rule Rending.
As for the actual discussion at hand, [MOD EDIT - RULE #1 - Alpharius] is actively advocating lying to his opponents. Once again he has put forth a convoluted RAI assumptive argument and then attempt to then paint it with a self-declared RAW brush. However just like you can't Bedazzle a turd and call it the Hope Diamond, you need the RAW to call it RAW and [MOD EDIT - RULE #1 - Alpharius] never uses RAW.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/05/01 23:23:47
