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Also interested in Wraithblades; specifically whether the extra expense for the axes is worth it over the swords?

 Kouzuki wrote:

Dionysodorus wrote:

I have been impressed with guardians so far. Especially when backed by farseers and warlocks. And the hemlock is a beast
The current iteration is basically:
Yncarne
Farseer
4x 10-man Guardians in Shuriken Cannon Serpents
3x Hemlocks
and a minimum Razorwing Flocks unit that I'm playing around with for objectives, deep strike denial, and summoning the Yncarne. It didn't actually do much in the game against Guard but if he'd rolled better I would have brought in the Yncarne and smashed a couple more of his tanks on my turn 2.

Are you playing as Ynnari? Or CWE? Also what do you do with the farseer? Is it in a serpent? Or just deployed on foot?

Yeah, Ynnari. The Farseer starts in a Serpent and usually gets out on turn 1, advances forward, and ends in the middle of a bunch of Serpents where she can Doom and maybe Smite something. Her main job is to Doom good targets for shuriken weaponry.

_Valten_ wrote:
Also interested in Wraithblades; specifically whether the extra expense for the axes is worth it over the swords?

I think the axes are almost never worth it except maybe if you just really need to pack as much power as possible into a single Serpent. Yeah, they get a 4++, but at the same time they get 50% more expensive. They become a fantastic target for assault cannons and other weapons with decent strength and a little AP. The axes aren't even clearly better than the swords in CC per model (obviously they're better against T6 and T7 when you charge, but there are a lot of situations where they don't pay off nearly as well) and, again, you're paying 50% more for them. For the price of 2 axes you can get 3 swords.

I played a couple games as eldar over the weekend and would like to share my experience. First, Doom is probably our most important spell. It makes up for the fact that a lot of our weapons have low strength, like howling banshees, starcannons, and suriken cannons (especially helpful for the suriken cannons). I found that dooming a target and focus firing it until it died was super effective. I even managed to permanently kill Celestine. That said, my farseer was the core of my army and MVP for both games. I don't know how I would've won if I ever lost my farseer. In one instance, my opponent threw ahriman close to my farseer to kill her with psychic powers and shooting, but between her invuln, the ghost helm, and the runes of the farseer, she denied a couple powers and survived unscathed. I then sent in the wave serpents to kill him with mortal wounds from the serpent shields.

The Viper did ok. I took 2 suriken cannons. It wasn't a huge enough target for my opponent to prioritize, so it went largely ignored. Between fly and the high movement, it was never worth attacking (for my opponents). The movement helped grab objectives and avoid things that wanted to get into melee.

I was disappointed with the wraithlord. With only 3 attacks and diminishing stats, he never made his points back. His ranged weapons were probably better taken on another wave serpent or viper. That said, he did hit a helbrute with bright lances and finished it off in melee before dying, so I guess he made most of his points back. Speaking of wave serpents, those things are amazing. They're pretty tanky and can dish out a good amount of damage. I popped my serpent shields on all my wave serpents to kill Characters to great effect.

Finally, I like guardians more than Dire Avenger, which sucks because I like the avengers models more. I threw guardians at my opponents as a screening unit that needed to be dealt with because they can dish out a lot of hurt with doom support. When they died, I counter attacked/ Soul bursted with whatever was next to them.

Dionysodorus wrote:

I think the axes are almost never worth it except maybe if you just really need to pack as much power as possible into a single Serpent. Yeah, they get a 4++, but at the same time they get 50% more expensive. They become a fantastic target for assault cannons and other weapons with decent strength and a little AP. The axes aren't even clearly better than the swords in CC per model (obviously they're better against T6 and T7 when you charge, but there are a lot of situations where they don't pay off nearly as well) and, again, you're paying 50% more for them. For the price of 2 axes you can get 3 swords.

So do you think it's worth having wraithblades at all? Or would you put the points into wraithguard with cannons and trust the toughness and save will see them through?

Requizen wrote:
Reece from FLG was raving about Wraith construct armies, going for the old Iyanden style. What do you guys think about that?

I've been building a spirithost list myself, and I'm really impressed with the results. Here are my takeaways:

Wraithguard are useful in both varieties. While hosing people down with D-scythes is immensely satisfying (getting 15 autohits on a Hive Tyrant was sweeeeeeet), the regular wraithcannon is fantastic for vehicles and high-wound monsters.

Wraithblades with twin swords are stupidly effective. I was running a squad of 5 with the spiritseer in the serpent, and they'd just erase whatever I threw them at. 20 attacks on the charge, hitting on 2's (with Enhance), rerolling 1's (from the SS) at strength 6 with a -2 AP is essentially a sharknado. I wouldn't even consider using the axe/shield version.

Wraithlords are worth giving a sword, period. I'm actually considering a spearhead's worth of lords with just the sword upgrade (113 pts is a steal).

Wave serpents are feckin' awesome, obviously. If you're running a pure spirit host, you're somewhat at the mercy of odd points values. For instance, for a 1000 point battle, I ended up with 46 points left and nothing to spend it on... so I threw spirit stones, vectored engines and star engines on my triple-shuricannon serpent. +2d6 on the advance, -1 to be hit after advancing, and ignoring wounds on a 6+? After the normal Wave Serpent damage reduction? Hoo-boy.

Now, normally I wouldn't consider dumping 173 points on a transport... but, again, running a pure spirit host means you're having to "tetris" together a number of relatively high-cost units without a lot of low-point stuff to fill in the gaps.

I'm curious what people think about the performance of a normal Farseer vs Eldrad, also are singing spears worth taking in 8th ed?

 CatPeeler wrote:

Requizen wrote:
Reece from FLG was raving about Wraith construct armies, going for the old Iyanden style. What do you guys think about that?

I've been building a spirithost list myself, and I'm really impressed with the results. Here are my takeaways:

Wraithguard are useful in both varieties. While hosing people down with D-scythes is immensely satisfying (getting 15 autohits on a Hive Tyrant was sweeeeeeet), the regular wraithcannon is fantastic for vehicles and high-wound monsters.

Wraithblades with twin swords are stupidly effective. I was running a squad of 5 with the spiritseer in the serpent, and they'd just erase whatever I threw them at. 20 attacks on the charge, hitting on 2's (with Enhance), rerolling 1's (from the SS) at strength 6 with a -2 AP is essentially a sharknado. I wouldn't even consider using the axe/shield version.

Wraithlords are worth giving a sword, period. I'm actually considering a spearhead's worth of lords with just the sword upgrade (113 pts is a steal).

Wave serpents are feckin' awesome, obviously. If you're running a pure spirit host, you're somewhat at the mercy of odd points values. For instance, for a 1000 point battle, I ended up with 46 points left and nothing to spend it on... so I threw spirit stones, vectored engines and star engines on my triple-shuricannon serpent. +2d6 on the advance, -1 to be hit after advancing, and ignoring wounds on a 6+? After the normal Wave Serpent damage reduction? Hoo-boy.

Now, normally I wouldn't consider dumping 173 points on a transport... but, again, running a pure spirit host means you're having to "tetris" together a number of relatively high-cost units without a lot of low-point stuff to fill in the gaps.

How is your 2k spirit host looking?

_Valten_ wrote:
How is your 2k spirit host looking?

Here's the 2k list I'm currently building toward:

HQ: Spiritseer

Elite1: Wraithblades w/twin swords
Wave serpent with triple shuricannons, spirit stones, vectored engines, star engines

Elite2: Wraithguard w/ D-scythes

Elite3: Wraithguard w/ wraithcannons

Elite4: Harlequin Solitaire

Heavy1: Wraithlord with Starcannon, Ghost glaive

Heavy2: Wraithlord with 2x flamers, Shuricannon, Ghost glaive

Flyer1: Hemlock Wraithfighter

Lord of War: Wraithknight with glaive/shield, 2x starcannons.

2000 points, on the nose.


The solitaire is in there because 1) the points fit, and 2) I'm limited by the Vanguard structure. Splitting it into a vanguard & spearhead will have to wait until I have something to swap for the wraithknight.

 CatPeeler wrote:

_Valten_ wrote:
How is your 2k spirit host looking?

Here's the 2k list I'm currently building toward:

HQ: Spiritseer

Elite1: Wraithblades w/twin swords
Wave serpent with triple shuricannons, spirit stones, vectored engines, star engines

Elite2: Wraithguard w/ D-scythes

Elite3: Wraithguard w/ wraithcannons

Elite4: Harlequin Solitaire

Heavy1: Wraithlord with Starcannon, Ghost glaive

Heavy2: Wraithlord with 2x flamers, Shuricannon, Ghost glaive

Flyer1: Hemlock Wraithfighter

Lord of War: Wraithknight with glaive/shield, 2x starcannons.

2000 points, on the nose.


The solitaire is in there because 1) the points fit, and 2) I'm limited by the Vanguard structure. Splitting it into a vanguard & spearhead will have to wait until I have something to swap for the wraithknight.

Wow, that's super low model count. What do you plan to do against armies with strong shooting, like Guard lines or Knights?

Requizen wrote:
Wow, that's super low model count. What do you plan to do against armies with strong shooting, like Guard lines or Knights?

Very true... but the last time around (back in 5th) I was mostly a Deathwing player, so small armies are well within my comfort zone.

Terrain will be a huge factor, for sure. LOS-blocking terrain is pretty crucial in this edition, from what I've seen so far.

As far as anti-shooting, the Hemlock should be able to pounce on enemy rearguard units (an alternate list would be to ditch the solitaire and one of the lords in favor of a second Hemlock). The 2d3 auto-hit heavy d-scythes hitting pretty much anywhere on the table will draw fire, if nothing else.

Beyond that, the list is made to have very little that you can afford to ignore. The hope is that my opponent will have to make some tough choices as to where to focus fire. The serpent unit, lords, knight, and solitaire can all punch a pretty reliable hole in something, and then spread quickly if left unchecked. The fact that it's MUCH easier to get to the enemy in 8th edition really helps out.

None of which is to say that it'd be an easy matchup. I haven't faced a horde or true gunline army yet, but I expect them to be a real challenge. Other elite armies, though? Spirit host seem to eat 'em just fine.

FarseerBrah wrote:

 admironheart wrote:

The Eldar:
The Avatar waded thru everything but, They just ignored it as it never killed enough to be a threat or pay its points back.

The WarWalkers were quality. Not game moving, but solid.
The Wave Serpent was a real tough cookie and still going....I will field 3 or 4 of them in the future.

Will Not field Striking Scorpions....They could not take down 1 squad of guardsmen 1v1. Missed the charge...overwatch etc...not good rolls and were made mince.

I'll be interested in seeing how the Avatar does in future games, thinking of running one.

What did ya have on the warwalkers and what did ya target? I'm thinking of running a few.

Sucks about the Scorps, i can't say i'm surprised, you fought out of cover I presume? They might eb decentign when fighting against units in cover. What did ya have in the Exarch?

Thanks for the report mate.

War walkers were split up? Was told that is how they work now. One was a decoy, but was never targeted...The StarCannon took 3 wounds off the baneblade.
The 2nd did one wound to the Imperial Bastion after 2 rounds but on round 3 did 11 to the baneblade with brightlance and EML.
The 3rd one could not hurt the Imperial Bastion, and managed to put 1 wound on a scout walker with a brightlance and took an Evesor assassin down to 2 wounds on turn 3 with the starcannon.

Yes the scorpions started in cover and attacked the squad in cover. There was a primaris psyker and Platoon Commander and the Missile launcher 10 man unit. Got hit with Overwatch and failed the charge. Cover helped but 5 + exarch with biting blade is too small. next turn lost a couple more. and then the rest on overwatch and psychic. The exarch made it in and killed one I think...they fell back and smite finished him off...With no Deny the Witch rolls near the 'infiltrate' they were easy pickens. Psykers may not be tough but some armies have lots of cheap ones to fill up with. (warlocks and primaris for example)

The Wailing Doom was nasty on shooting (3 wounds to a predator), (3 wounds to a Russ and then just waded thru 4 guardsmen every time in combat).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Requizen wrote:
Wraithlords are worth giving a sword, period. I'm actually considering a spearhead's worth of lords with just the sword upgrade (113 pts is a steal).

I actually was thinking this if I had to face a Tyranid Army. The Wraithlords would be very usefull to just wade in for hth

Has anyone tried using Illic Nightspear?

Maybe I am crazy however the Vindicare Assasin seems much better, given they are basically the exact same points cost?

What am I missing here?

You're missing that almost all Eldar units are 25% more expensive for no reason.

The Eldar tax from 3rd-6th edition has returned.

has anyone tried D cannons.

Insane cost of 77 + 50 for only 4 wounds. Str 10 d6 -4 is awesome but for 127 points.....no way.

UNLESS you can screen them someway. They can move 6 " and fire 24"=30" total on a 4+. They have Battle Focus but that don't really work with their guns.

If there was a way to move a tank in front after they shot to block LOS.

So the Ynarri could pull that off I think with an extra Move?

 DarknessEternal wrote:
You're missing that almost all Eldar units are 25% more expensive for no reason.

The Eldar tax from 3rd-6th edition has returned.

Sounds like someone is spoiled by the (overpowered) 7th Ed. Codex.

There was most certainly no eldar tax in the 6th Ed. Codex, and I dare even say the 4th Ed. Codex was fine for it's time.
As for 3d...well at least we had Starcannons.

 admironheart wrote:

Yes the scorpions started in cover and attacked the squad in cover. There was a primaris psyker and Platoon Commander and the Missile launcher 10 man unit. Got hit with Overwatch and failed the charge. Cover helped but 5 + exarch with biting blade is too small. next turn lost a couple more. and then the rest on overwatch and psychic. The exarch made it in and killed one I think...they fell back and smite finished him off...With no Deny the Witch rolls near the 'infiltrate' they were easy pickens. Psykers may not be tough but some armies have lots of cheap ones to fill up with. (warlocks and primaris for example)

I think you had a clear case of bad luck there. I wouldn't dismiss SS just based on that experience alone.

 CatPeeler wrote:

Requizen wrote:
Reece from FLG was raving about Wraith construct armies, going for the old Iyanden style. What do you guys think about that?

I've been building a spirithost list myself, and I'm really impressed with the results. Here are my takeaways:

Wraithguard are useful in both varieties. While hosing people down with D-scythes is immensely satisfying (getting 15 autohits on a Hive Tyrant was sweeeeeeet), the regular wraithcannon is fantastic for vehicles and high-wound monsters.

Wraithblades with twin swords are stupidly effective. I was running a squad of 5 with the spiritseer in the serpent, and they'd just erase whatever I threw them at. 20 attacks on the charge, hitting on 2's (with Enhance), rerolling 1's (from the SS) at strength 6 with a -2 AP is essentially a sharknado. I wouldn't even consider using the axe/shield version.

Wraithlords are worth giving a sword, period. I'm actually considering a spearhead's worth of lords with just the sword upgrade (113 pts is a steal).

Wave serpents are feckin' awesome, obviously. If you're running a pure spirit host, you're somewhat at the mercy of odd points values. For instance, for a 1000 point battle, I ended up with 46 points left and nothing to spend it on... so I threw spirit stones, vectored engines and star engines on my triple-shuricannon serpent. +2d6 on the advance, -1 to be hit after advancing, and ignoring wounds on a 6+? After the normal Wave Serpent damage reduction? Hoo-boy.

Now, normally I wouldn't consider dumping 173 points on a transport... but, again, running a pure spirit host means you're having to "tetris" together a number of relatively high-cost units without a lot of low-point stuff to fill in the gaps.

Doing the maths, on average 5 Wraithguard with D-Scythes are much better than 5 Wraithblades with Swords.

On average, with D-Scythe
vs T4 3+ = 8.3 wounds (with overwatch doubles to 16 wounds)
vs T7 3+ = 6.6 wounds (with overwatch doubles to 13 wounds)

On average, with swords and on the charge
vs T4 3+ = 6 wounds
vs T7 3+ = 3 wounds

In protracted assaults, the D-Scythe guard are better again, able to fall back and flame?/scythe? their opponents (+overwatch if charged again). Their fists aren't too bad at punching either at S5 AP-1 D1d3

Hilariously, the D-Scythes are are at least on par with Wraithcannons and if not better if they get charged and can overwatch

On average with the Wraithcannon
vs T4 3+ = 2.7 wounds (with each wound doing 3.5 damage for a grand total of 9.7 wounds)
vs T7 3+ = 2.2 wounds (with each wound doing 3.5 damage for a grand total of 7.7 wounds)

Any consensus as to the effectiveness of Striking Scorpions and Howling Banshees? What is the best warhead for the Exarch in both cases?

Been looking to incorporate more deployment shenanigans in my Eldar, and Melee deterrence is going to be really important in 8th.

 TheNewBlood wrote:
Any consensus as to the effectiveness of Striking Scorpions and Howling Banshees? What is the best warhead for the Exarch in both cases?

Been looking to incorporate more deployment shenanigans in my Eldar, and Melee deterrence is going to be really important in 8th.

Pretty sure basic mathhammer says;

For Scorps

Biting Blade > Chain Sabres > Scorp Claw

Banshees

Executioner > Mirror Swords

That said, I'm curious if there are any recommended loadouts for foot Autarchs in 8th ed, specifically since the Path of Command aura seems really strong especially with Guardians right now. I feel it would probably just be a simple Dual Avenger Catapult loadout, but looking for other opinions.

 Kouzuki wrote:

 TheNewBlood wrote:
Any consensus as to the effectiveness of Striking Scorpions and Howling Banshees? What is the best warhead for the Exarch in both cases?

Been looking to incorporate more deployment shenanigans in my Eldar, and Melee deterrence is going to be really important in 8th.

Pretty sure basic mathhammer says;

For Scorps

Biting Blade > Chain Sabres > Scorp Claw

Chain Sabres are significantly better against GEq, even if slightly more expensive. But Biting Blade is better if expecting to fight toughness 4, 2+ wounds models.

Another reason for the Scorpion Claw being worse than the others (a real shame, so iconic) is that the -1 to hit cancels Sustained assault (unless you are targetting enemies in cover, but then the two other weapons would be getting extra attacks on 5+ instead of 6+).

Gibs55 wrote:
Has anyone tried using Illic Nightspear?

Maybe I am crazy however the Vindicare Assasin seems much better, given they are basically the exact same points cost?

What am I missing here?

I guess the biggest difference is that the Voidbringer's 2+ to Wound works against anything that's not a Vehicle, while the Exitus rifle's 2+ to Wound only works on Infantry; you'll only wound most Bikers, Cavalary, Beasts and Monsters on a 4+ or 5+ with it. And Illic has perhaps a little better close combat ability due to his powersword, but I guess that's a wash as you want neither character in close combat anway.

So the Vindicare is better at taking out Infantry Characters with an invulnerable save, while Illic has a wider variety of targets, but is blunted by invulnerable saves. Considering this edition comes with its fair share of Characters without invulnerable saves, that's not too bad I suppose.

Shining Spears. Oh my.

On my first pass through the index I thought "43ppm! Forget that!". However, I'm writing a full Aspect Warrior list now (probably a bad idea) and have been considering what these guys can do...

Shooting: A unit of 9 gets 36 Shuricat shots! That's almost a 20 man Guardian blobs worth of dakka. Plus 9 S6 AP-4 D2 lance shots. They can shoot both! At different targets! They can do all this after a 16-22" move.

Assault: 19 S6 AP-4 D2 is pretty killy.

Durability: W2 T4 3+ 4++ is decent but they are a little flimsy for the points cost. The 4++ only working vs shooting is ok if you can wreck units on the charge to avoid being hit back.


Where these guys really shine (lol) is with SfD and buffs:

Super hit and run:
With SfD these guys could be hilarious: Move 16" (22 if you don't mind -1 to hit) and land within 7" of their target, unload 36 rending shots and 9 lances, when the unit dies you can do a 22" SfD move back to safety. Alternatively you could assault after shooting (the same target or a different one) and then make your 22" SfD getaway.

You could also use SfD to assault after advancing; advance 22" next to an enemy unit, when the unit dies (possibly to the spears guns) you can charge something else.

Buffs:
Conceal and fortune are very nice for such an expensive unit.
Guide is actually really good because of the amount of shooting they can do, especially if they advance.
Doom makes the 36 shuriken shots totally shred infantry and turns the lances into great anti-tank weapons: average of 21 wounds to T7+ Vehicles! Wow!
Word of the Pheonix from Yvraine could be used to move them twice so 32" then charge.
Enhance and the Autarch buff would be nice but I think the characters will struggle to keep close with the SfD moves happening.


In conclusion: A properly buffed Shining Spear unit can jump into the enemy army, wipe out a couple of units, then disappear without a trace. I think they are really powerful but at the very least they are super cool.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
You're missing that almost all Eldar units are 25% more expensive for no reason.

I'm pretty sure every army got 25% more expensive. Some units and models doubled in price at least, like Necron Tomb Blades going from 18ppm to 42ppm.

Yep shining spears seem legit this edition.
I can see them having great synergy running with a hemlock. They will benefit from it's conceal and between the two of them should down most targets.

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:
Shining Spears. Oh my.

On my first pass through the index I thought "43ppm! Forget that!". However, I'm writing a full Aspect Warrior list now (probably a bad idea) and have been considering what these guys can do...

Try and revisit this thought once you've faced something like Exocrines, Sicarans, or anything else with spam guns that do 2 wounds. I suspect you'll change your tune.

Same can be said for any unit though.
Just have to play them smart and use their manouverability to minimise their return fire.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:
Shining Spears. Oh my.

On my first pass through the index I thought "43ppm! Forget that!". However, I'm writing a full Aspect Warrior list now (probably a bad idea) and have been considering what these guys can do...

Try and revisit this thought once you've faced something like Exocrines, Sicarans, or anything else with spam guns that do 2 wounds. I suspect you'll change your tune.

I think this makes Windriders basically useless, but the Spears' 4++ keeps them playable, I think. There are very few multi-damage guns that don't also have pretty good AP, so while they take two wounds from each shot they're still 50% likely to make their save.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:
Shining Spears. Oh my.

On my first pass through the index I thought "43ppm! Forget that!". However, I'm writing a full Aspect Warrior list now (probably a bad idea) and have been considering what these guys can do...

Try and revisit this thought once you've faced something like Exocrines, Sicarans, or anything else with spam guns that do 2 wounds. I suspect you'll change your tune.

Maybe I should just take indestructible units instead? Any unit you can mention can easily be blown off the board in one turn, so pointing that out isn't the most useful contribution. The Spears durability is their biggest weakness (as I mentioned), but it's the ability to SfD move 22" after wiping a unit that makes me think they will be effective. The have the damage output to trigger SfD and the movement stat to make better use of it than most.

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:
The Spears durability is their biggest weakness

This can also be said for most eldar infantry units, aside from wraiths

 Hakumei wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
You're missing that almost all Eldar units are 25% more expensive for no reason.

I'm pretty sure every army got 25% more expensive. Some units and models doubled in price at least, like Necron Tomb Blades going from 18ppm to 42ppm.

Most of my army is a similar price or cheaper. Eldar definitely got a lot of unneeded nerfing.