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I was responding to you saying a Tryon could only get +5 attacks because it would only have 5 attacks available. I repeat. The Tryon does not need to attack with the scytal to get the +1 attack with the scytal. If it was possible it could make all of its 6 base attacks with any 1 weapon profile and every scytal profile would still generate 1 additional attack so long as 1) it fights and 2) it has more than one pair. The rule does not require you to attack with the weapon to get the bonus the way the tail weapon does to generate its ability. It just requires that the bonus attack that is generated has to use that scytal profile.

Per RAW, 'massive scything talons' is a single weapon profile.

There is no weapon profile named 'pair of massive scything talons'

When you purchase an additional 'pair of massive scything talons' it merely provides the +1 A as it is not a weapon profile.

That's how the rules are written here.

Fortunately, that is also RAI.

An additional pair would be an additional weapon with the same profile. That's the actual RAW. The +1 A is a special bonus mentioned for having an additional pair, but that does not mean that it is not a weapon. You can technically split your attacks and claim the different massive scything talons are being used for the different attacks. It doesn't make a practical difference in this case since the weapons are the same, but some player for some reason might want to determine which set of scything talons on the model is the "lucky" set hitting and wounding opponents. Stranger things have happened.

col_impact wrote:
Per RAW, 'massive scything talons' is a single weapon profile.

There is no weapon profile named 'pair of massive scything talons'

When you purchase an additional 'pair of massive scything talons' it merely provides the +1 A as it is not a weapon profile.

That's how the rules are written here.

Fortunately, that is also RAI.

Fortunately, your argument has no meaning.

 doctortom wrote:
An additional pair would be an additional weapon with the same profile. That's the actual RAW. The +1 A is a special bonus mentioned for having an additional pair, but that does not mean that it is not a weapon. You can technically split your attacks and claim the different massive scything talons are being used for the different attacks. It doesn't make a practical difference in this case since the weapons are the same, but some player for some reason might want to determine which set of scything talons on the model is the "lucky" set hitting and wounding opponents. Stranger things have happened.

The reason to choose different profiles is to split attacks among different enemy units.I would never swing every attack have at a single remaining marine if I could also swing at a full unit. Il give 2 swings to the one and the rest to the rest.

 Lance845 wrote:

 doctortom wrote:
An additional pair would be an additional weapon with the same profile. That's the actual RAW. The +1 A is a special bonus mentioned for having an additional pair, but that does not mean that it is not a weapon. You can technically split your attacks and claim the different massive scything talons are being used for the different attacks. It doesn't make a practical difference in this case since the weapons are the same, but some player for some reason might want to determine which set of scything talons on the model is the "lucky" set hitting and wounding opponents. Stranger things have happened.

The reason to choose different profiles is to split attacks among different enemy units.I would never swing every attack have at a single remaining marine if I could also swing at a full unit. Il give 2 swings to the one and the rest to the rest.

The rule is you choose a melee weapon, or if you have different melee weapons which attacks are which weapon. There's a profile associated with each weapon. I was trying to correct col impact with him saying there is only one profile while trying to give the impression that there is only one weapon. He was wrong saying that "when you purchase an additional 'pair of massive scything talons' it merely provides the +1 A as it is not a weapon profile.' It is a separate weapon, which has a profile that happens to be the same as the the profile for the first set.. If you have the same profile, it normally doesn't matter if you split the attacks using one weapon on all the attacks or different weapons, since you get to split the attacks between units as you wish whether it is with one weapon or multiple weapons. You're still attacking with the same profile no matter which weapon you use.

 doctortom wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

 doctortom wrote:
An additional pair would be an additional weapon with the same profile. That's the actual RAW. The +1 A is a special bonus mentioned for having an additional pair, but that does not mean that it is not a weapon. You can technically split your attacks and claim the different massive scything talons are being used for the different attacks. It doesn't make a practical difference in this case since the weapons are the same, but some player for some reason might want to determine which set of scything talons on the model is the "lucky" set hitting and wounding opponents. Stranger things have happened.

The reason to choose different profiles is to split attacks among different enemy units.I would never swing every attack have at a single remaining marine if I could also swing at a full unit. Il give 2 swings to the one and the rest to the rest.

The rule is you choose a melee weapon, or if you have different melee weapons which attacks are which weapon. There's a profile associated with each weapon. I was trying to correct col impact with him saying there is only one profile while trying to give the impression that there is only one weapon. He was wrong saying that "when you purchase an additional 'pair of massive scything talons' it merely provides the +1 A as it is not a weapon profile.' It is a separate weapon, which has a profile that happens to be the same as the the profile for the first set.. If you have the same profile, it normally doesn't matter if you split the attacks using one weapon on all the attacks or different weapons, since you get to split the attacks between units as you wish whether it is with one weapon or multiple weapons. You're still attacking with the same profile no matter which weapon you use.

Oh yeah, Col_Impact is completely wrong. He's been repeating the same nonsense for about 2 pages now. Most of us are just ignoring him because it's not worth the discussion.

 doctortom wrote:
An additional pair would be an additional weapon with the same profile. That's the actual RAW. The +1 A is a special bonus mentioned for having an additional pair, but that does not mean that it is not a weapon. You can technically split your attacks and claim the different massive scything talons are being used for the different attacks. It doesn't make a practical difference in this case since the weapons are the same, but some player for some reason might want to determine which set of scything talons on the model is the "lucky" set hitting and wounding opponents. Stranger things have happened.

Your argument has no rules support. The weapon profile is not named 'pair of massive scything talons'. The weapon profile is named 'massive scything talons'.

So when you add additional 'pairs of massive scything talons' you are not purchasing another weapon profile. You are merely purchasing equipment that will grant +1A.

There is a single weapon profile named 'massive scything talons' for however many massive scything talons you have.

That's the RAW.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lance845 wrote:


Oh yeah, Col_Impact is completely wrong. He's been repeating the same nonsense for about 2 pages now. Most of us are just ignoring him because it's not worth the discussion.

On this forum, you have to prove me wrong. If you ignore me then it just proves my argument is correct.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Fragile wrote:


Fortunately, your argument has no meaning.

You haven't proven my argument wrong. The weapon profile 'massive scything talons' is a single weapon profile for all the massive scything talons a model has. That's the RAW.

col_impact wrote:

 doctortom wrote:
An additional pair would be an additional weapon with the same profile. That's the actual RAW. The +1 A is a special bonus mentioned for having an additional pair, but that does not mean that it is not a weapon. You can technically split your attacks and claim the different massive scything talons are being used for the different attacks. It doesn't make a practical difference in this case since the weapons are the same, but some player for some reason might want to determine which set of scything talons on the model is the "lucky" set hitting and wounding opponents. Stranger things have happened.

Your argument has no rules support. The weapon profile is not named 'pair of massive scything talons'. The weapon profile is named 'massive scything talons'.

So when you add additional 'pairs of massive scything talons' you are not purchasing another weapon profile. You are merely purchasing equipment that will grant +1A.

There is a single weapon profile named 'massive scything talons' for however many massive scything talons you have.

That's the RAW.

Epic fail on reading comprehension there, col impact. I said if you buy an additional pair, you are buying another weapon. You purchase weapons, not weapon profiles. The weapon has a profile associated with it, but you buy the weapon. There's a special rule for this weapon that if you have an extra pair you get +1 A. That does not mean it is not a weapon that you can't buy, however. You even admit that it is "equipment"; that equipment just happens to be a weapon. The weapon has the same profile as what is listed for the first set that you come equipped with. That applies for each set you purchase.

Feel free to point out a rule that says "massive scything talons" are not a weapon. Then, point out where it says a weapon does not have a profille, That is what you need to do for your assertions about "that's the RAW".

 doctortom wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 doctortom wrote:
An additional pair would be an additional weapon with the same profile. That's the actual RAW. The +1 A is a special bonus mentioned for having an additional pair, but that does not mean that it is not a weapon. You can technically split your attacks and claim the different massive scything talons are being used for the different attacks. It doesn't make a practical difference in this case since the weapons are the same, but some player for some reason might want to determine which set of scything talons on the model is the "lucky" set hitting and wounding opponents. Stranger things have happened.

Your argument has no rules support. The weapon profile is not named 'pair of massive scything talons'. The weapon profile is named 'massive scything talons'.

So when you add additional 'pairs of massive scything talons' you are not purchasing another weapon profile. You are merely purchasing equipment that will grant +1A.

There is a single weapon profile named 'massive scything talons' for however many massive scything talons you have.

That's the RAW.

Epic fail on reading comprehension there, col impact. I said if you buy an additional pair, you are buying another weapon. You purchase weapons, not weapon profiles. The weapon has a profile associated with it, but you buy the weapon. There's a special rule for this weapon that if you have an extra pair you get +1 A. That does not mean it is not a weapon that you can't buy, however. You even admit that it is "equipment"; that equipment just happens to be a weapon. The weapon has the same profile as what is listed for the first set that you come equipped with. That applies for each set you purchase.

I am reading the rules as they are.

There is no weapon profile that says 'pair of massive scything talons' so you aren't buying a weapon profile when you buy a 'pair of massive scything talons'.

Until you can provide a weapon profile that says 'pair of massive scything talons' your argument has no RAW support.

The weapon profile the model has says 'massive scything talons' so it's a single weapon profile for however many scything talons the model has. That's the RAW.

As the rules are, when you purchase 'pair of massive scything talons' you are purchasing wargear/equipment that will grant +1A, but you are not purchasing a new weapon. There is simply no weapon profile associated with 'pair of massive scything talons'.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 doctortom wrote:


Feel free to point out a rule that says "massive scything talons" are not a weapon. Then, point out where it says a weapon does not have a profille, That is what you need to do for your assertions about "that's the RAW".

You have this backwards. The weapon profile we have does say 'massive scything talons' and so is a single weapon profile for however many scything talons the model has. That is what the rules literally say.

Your problem is that there is no weapon profile for 'pair of massive scything talons' so there is no rules support for your claim that when you purchase a 'pair of massive scything talons' that you are purchasing a weapon.

Your wasting your time doctortom. I tried. He's just gunna repeat his last post and then congratulate himself.

But, specifically, every piece of equipment a model has is wargear. Adrenal glands, wargear with a profile. Weapons? wargear with a profile. You cannot modify a piece of wargears profile. You can simply buy more wargear that influences it.

I.E. smart targetting systems increase the AP value on Tau Guns. That is one profile modifying another. 2 profiles still exist.

 Lance845 wrote:
Your wasting your time doctortom. I tried. He's just gunna repeat his last post and then congratulate himself.

But, specifically, every piece of equipment a model has is wargear. Adrenal glands, wargear with a profile. Weapons? wargear with a profile. You cannot modify a piece of wargears profile. You can simply buy more wargear that influences it.

I.E. smart targetting systems increase the AP value on Tau Guns. That is one profile modifying another. 2 profiles still exist.

Right. And 'pair of massive scything talons' does not correspond with any weapon profile so it's wargear/equipment that merely grants +1A to the 'massive scything talons' single weapon profile that the model already has.

col_impact wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 doctortom wrote:
An additional pair would be an additional weapon with the same profile. That's the actual RAW. The +1 A is a special bonus mentioned for having an additional pair, but that does not mean that it is not a weapon. You can technically split your attacks and claim the different massive scything talons are being used for the different attacks. It doesn't make a practical difference in this case since the weapons are the same, but some player for some reason might want to determine which set of scything talons on the model is the "lucky" set hitting and wounding opponents. Stranger things have happened.

Your argument has no rules support. The weapon profile is not named 'pair of massive scything talons'. The weapon profile is named 'massive scything talons'.

So when you add additional 'pairs of massive scything talons' you are not purchasing another weapon profile. You are merely purchasing equipment that will grant +1A.

There is a single weapon profile named 'massive scything talons' for however many massive scything talons you have.

That's the RAW.

Epic fail on reading comprehension there, col impact. I said if you buy an additional pair, you are buying another weapon. You purchase weapons, not weapon profiles. The weapon has a profile associated with it, but you buy the weapon. There's a special rule for this weapon that if you have an extra pair you get +1 A. That does not mean it is not a weapon that you can't buy, however. You even admit that it is "equipment"; that equipment just happens to be a weapon. The weapon has the same profile as what is listed for the first set that you come equipped with. That applies for each set you purchase.

I am reading the rules as they are.

There is no weapon profile that says 'pair of massive scything talons' so you aren't buying a weapon profile when you buy a 'pair of massive scything talons'.

Until you can provide a weapon profile that says 'pair of massive scything talons' your argument has no RAW support.

The weapon profile the model has says 'massive scything talons' so it's a single weapon profile for however many scything talons the model has. That's the RAW.

As the rules are, when you purchase 'pair of massive scything talons' you are purchasing wargear/equipment that will grant +1A, but you are not purchasing a new weapon. There is simply no weapon profile associated with 'pair of massive scything talons'.

You're not reading the rules as they are at all.

My argument doesn't matter whether it says "massive scything talons" or "pair of massive scything talons" or "set of scything talons". When you are told you have a set as a weapon and that you may buy more, you are buying more weapons. The profile that applies to the first set would apply to each set.

col_impact wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

 doctortom wrote:


Feel free to point out a rule that says "massive scything talons" are not a weapon. Then, point out where it says a weapon does not have a profille, That is what you need to do for your assertions about "that's the RAW".

You have this backwards. The weapon profile we have does say 'massive scything talons' and so is a single weapon profile for however many scything talons the model has. That is what the rules literally say.

Your problem is that there is no weapon profile for 'pair of massive scything talons' so there is no rules support for your claim that when you purchase a 'pair of massive scything talons' that you are purchasing a weapon.

No I don't have this backwards at all. I have a weapon and I'm told I can buy additional weapons - additional sets. Drop the "pair of scything talons" argument for now, because - as some people have pointed out, if Massive Scything Talons profile is not for a pair, as it is indicated, then it's for one limb's worth of scything talons, and you end up with double the number. You don't do your argument any justice there, you've got things up to 6 Massive Scything Talons with 3 pairs.

 doctortom wrote:


You're not reading the rules as they are at all.

My argument doesn't matter whether it says "massive scything talons" or "pair of massive scything talons" or "set of scything talons". When you are told you have a set as a weapon and that you may buy more, you are buying more weapons. The profile that applies to the first set would apply to each set.

The single profile that is provided 'massive scything talons' applies a single weapon profile to all the scything talons.

There is no profile called 'pair of massive scything talons' so when you add an additional 'pair of massive scything talons you are not adding a weapon. You are merely adding wargear/equipment that grants +1A per the rule on the 'massive scything talons' profile.

You have to show me a weapon profile called 'pair of massive scything talons' in order to claim that you are purchasing a weapon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 doctortom wrote:


No I don't have this backwards at all. I have a weapon and I'm told I can buy additional weapons - additional sets. Drop the "pair of scything talons" argument for now, because - as some people have pointed out, if Massive Scything Talons profile is not for a pair, as it is indicated, then it's for one limb's worth of scything talons, and you end up with double the number. You don't do your argument any justice there, you've got things up to 6 Massive Scything Talons with 3 pairs.

You are not told that a 'pair of massive scything talons' is an additional weapon. No where does it say that. You are making that up.

Per RAW, the weapon profile is 'massive scything talons' and is a single profile for however many massive scything talons a model has. It doesn't matter how many pairs of massive scything talons a model has, 'massive scything talons' is a SINGLE weapon profile for all of them (the profile refers to itself as 'this weapon' not 'these weapons').

col_impact wrote:

 doctortom wrote:


You're not reading the rules as they are at all.

My argument doesn't matter whether it says "massive scything talons" or "pair of massive scything talons" or "set of scything talons". When you are told you have a set as a weapon and that you may buy more, you are buying more weapons. The profile that applies to the first set would apply to each set.

The single profile that is provided 'massive scything talons' applies a single weapon profile to all the scything talons..

your assumption, not proof.

col_impact wrote:
There is no profile called 'pair of massive scything talons' so when you add an additional 'pair of massive scything talons you are not adding a weapon. You are merely adding wargear/equipment that grants +1A per the rule on the 'massive scything talons' profile.

Based on your assumption that "massive scything talons" covers scything talons no matter how many sets you have. As opposed to the rules indicating that when you buy a weapon, you buy a weapon, and when you buy multiple weapons you actually do buy multiple weapons.

col_impact wrote:
You have to show me a weapon profile called 'pair of massive scything talons' in order to claim that you are purchasing weapon.

Nope, you have to provide me rules proof about your assumption that the one rules profile applies to all sets as one weapon when with other weapons, buying an additional weapon means having another weapon. All I need to do right now is ask "how many massive scything talons does the model have", and when you say "6" I point out that that means there are 6 with that profile if the profile is not for a pair of scything talons, with the potential to use each one separately if you can make 6 attacks.

 doctortom wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 doctortom wrote:


You're not reading the rules as they are at all.

My argument doesn't matter whether it says "massive scything talons" or "pair of massive scything talons" or "set of scything talons". When you are told you have a set as a weapon and that you may buy more, you are buying more weapons. The profile that applies to the first set would apply to each set.

The single profile that is provided 'massive scything talons' applies a single weapon profile to all the scything talons..

your assumption, not proof.

Nope. Proof is in the RAW. The 'massive scything talons' weapon profile refers to itself as 'this weapon' so however many you have its a single weapon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 doctortom wrote:


Based on your assumption that "massive scything talons" covers scything talons no matter how many sets you have. As opposed to the rules indicating that when you buy a weapon, you buy a weapon, and when you buy multiple weapons you actually do buy multiple weapons.

No assumption. The profile refers to itself as 'this weapon' so it is a single weapon no matter how many you have.

There are no rules indicating that you are buying a weapon when you buy a 'pair of massive scything talons'. If you have a rule, please provide it.

Unless you can start pointing out rules to the contrary, my argument is proved by the RAW.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 doctortom wrote:


Nope, you have to provide me rules proof about your assumption that the one rules profile applies to all sets as one weapon when with other weapons, buying an additional weapon means having another weapon. All I need to do right now is ask "how many massive scything talons does the model have", and when you say "6" I point out that that means there are 6 with that profile if the profile is not for a pair of scything talons, with the potential to use each one separately if you can make 6 attacks.

Nope. The profile does not say 'massive scything talon' so your argument has no merit.

Read the actual weapon profile.

Per RAW, the model has a single weapon profile for 'massive scything talons'. There could be 2000 massive scything talons but it all still is a single weapon profile.

Basic tip of the YMDC if Col_Impact gets involed 90% of the time the thread is dead and will spout the same nonsense over and over again, and it is usually incorrect.

Do believe it is time to lock this thread

GodDamUser wrote:
Basic tip of the YMDC if Col_Impact gets involed 90% of the time the thread is dead and will spout the same nonsense over and over again, and it is usually incorrect.

Do believe it is time to lock this thread

You can't just call my argument nonsense. You need to prove it. That is Tenet #1 of YMDC. Back up what you say.

col_impact wrote:

GodDamUser wrote:
Basic tip of the YMDC if Col_Impact gets involed 90% of the time the thread is dead and will spout the same nonsense over and over again, and it is usually incorrect.

Do believe it is time to lock this thread

You can't just call my argument nonsense. You need to prove it. That is Tenet #1 of YMDC. Back up what you say.

We can call it whatever we want because it is.

I agree. Lock it up.

At this point col_impact is either just the worst person in the world at reading rules or he is a master class troll with a level of dedication that boarders on obsession. Either way I simply will never participate in a discussion with him again.

col_impact wrote:
You can't just call my argument nonsense. You need to prove it. That is Tenet #1 of YMDC. Back up what you say.

You refusing everyone else's argument doesn't count as not proving it... and has been shown in numerous threads that you refuse to look at any view other than the one you have established in your head.. even when shown to be incorrect via FAQs

GodDamUser wrote:

col_impact wrote:
You can't just call my argument nonsense. You need to prove it. That is Tenet #1 of YMDC. Back up what you say.

You refusing everyone else's argument doesn't count as not proving it... and has been shown in numerous threads that you refuse to look at any view other than the one you have established in your head.. even when shown to be incorrect via FAQs

No one has posted an argument with any support. They have just said 'nonsense' or 'dumb'. If you want me to accept your view then you have to support it.

Meanwhile, my argument is supported directly by the RAW.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lance845 wrote:


At this point col_impact is either just the worst person in the world at reading rules or he is a master class troll with a level of dedication that boarders on obsession. Either way I simply will never participate in a discussion with him again.

You failed to present an argument with evidence.

And now your only recourse is personal attacks.

Prove my argument wrong or concede that my argument has RAW support and is correct.

Suggestion.

Instead of just calling col_impact names, why don't you follow the Tenets of YMDC and prove his argument wrong.

As it looks, col_impact's argument is supported by the RAW.

+1 to orknado. The attacks on col_impact are themselves trolling, especially because he is correct in this case.

I would like to point out that this is 7 pages long and clearly needs an faq from gw. Along with orther things in the nid codex. So much for 8th.

SO if Col is correct and you are buying single Talons each time you buy one.. how much does a Trygon Prime actually cost?

GodDamUser wrote:
SO if Col is correct and you are buying single Talons each time you buy one.. how much does a Trygon Prime actually cost?

That's not my argument at all.

Per RAW the weapon profile for 'massive scything weapons' is a single weapon profile for however many massive scything talons you have.

'Massive scything talons' refers to itself as 'this weapon' not 'these weapons'.

You could have 2000 massive scything talons but they all are still just 'massive scything talons' which is still just 'this weapon'.

Same thing with Wraiths. The model has 6 vicious claws but the weapon profile they have 'vicious claws' means that its a single weapon.


The name of the weapon is "massive scything talons"

"This weapon" refers to "massive scything talons" in the plural.

We are dealing with the case of a singular weapon profile representing however many scything talons on the model.

The rule for the weapon checks how many physical pairs you have and grants an extra attack to the massive scything talons weapons if the models is equipped with more than one pair.

Why call out that they have 3? Could have listed it as multiple if it doesn't matter.

Still what is the point cost of a Trygon prime then?

It is relevant to the discussion

GodDamUser wrote:
Still what is the point cost of a Trygon prime then?

It is relevant to the discussion

"Massive scything talons (two or more pairs) (Trygon and Trygon Prime) 60"

So you could give the Trygon Prime 1000 pairs and it still costs 60.

This is indirect confirmation of my already solid RAW argument that 'massive scything talons' is a single weapon profile and that adding pair of massive scything talons is not adding weapons, just a +1A for the 2nd pair.

When you buy an 'additional pair of massive scything talons' they are merely wargear that adds +1A per the 'massive scything talons' rule.

And per the wording of the rule any pair beyond the second is extraneous and grants no additional benefit, hence no additional charge for the 3rd pair since the 3rd pair does nothing.

Not only is my argument RAW, but it makes sense of things that would be otherwise inexplicably odd.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Eldarain wrote:
Why call out that they have 3? Could have listed it as multiple if it doesn't matter.

If the model has 2 pairs then the rule on the 'massive scything talons' applies for the +1A.

The model has one weapon representing all the massive scything talons it has. The rule for that single weapon checks the number of pairs of massive scything talons the model has and grants +1A when there is at least one additional pair beyond the first.

Ok. For the sake of appeasing people not col_impact I will give this one more red hot go.

First a model has wargear.

Second every piece of wargear has a profile.

Third a pair of something is 2 of that thing.

Fourth the name of a profile is irrelevant except to identify that profile for rules purposes. I.e. a unit called "canoptek spiders" can have 1-3 models. It does not matter that the profile for the unit is plural because it can represent a single model. Another example, biovore brood. A brood is 2 or more of a thing. But the biovore brood unit can consist of a single biovore.

Fifth we have no permission to modify a profile except with a second profile that directly states the changes it is making.

So, a model equipped with a pair (2) of "scything talons" is equipped with 2 separate profiles called "scything talons". And a model equipped with 3 pairs (6) of "scything talons" has 6 individual weapon profiles.

That is RAW

For your claim to be true you need to site a rule and/or a precedent where we have permission to modify a profile without the express permission of another profile or dataslate. Show me ANYWHERE in ANY book where that is the case.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Otherwise your explanation makes no sense. I.e. is nonsense. And the leaps in logic you made to get there are dumbfounding. Which makes the argument dumb.