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 NorseSig wrote:

The Iron Hands tactic is garbage. If you ever played Iron Hands outside of smash you would know that. If it was 5+ it would be reliable and something you could build around. Plus it only workers on infantry, bikes, and dreads. It might be okay on dreads, but with the lack of a decent dread delivery system it still makes dreads less than useful. And not to mention expensive. I can't even to afford the points to field my vehicles like I used to.

I mean, this is just math.

Against BS3+, the Raven Guard's tactic means you suffer 25% fewer hits, and in most cases that translates into 25% fewer wounds. The Iron Hands' means you suffer 16% fewer wounds. Basically the Raven Guard have 5.5+ FNP against BS3+ shooting from more than 12", while the Iron Hands get somewhat less protection at range in exchange for resistance to close-in shooting (like rapid-firing bolters or plasma), close combat, and mortal wounds. These seem pretty comparable and which one is better will depend on what you tend to go up against.

Raven Guard certainly have an advantage against BS4+, but on the other hand the most common source of this is Guard, who have easy access to deep strikers like scion command squads. A Raven Guard list that's just a bunch of Devastators and dreads definitely has an edge against parking lot Guard, though. Some Tau builds are really bad against Raven Guard, but on the other hand it seems like a lot of the most popular stuff now is pretty short-ranged. People like Commanders with fusion guns, gun drones with 18" range, Ghostkeels with 18-24" range, and I think the Forgeworld Y'vahra which can't actually shoot past 12" anyway. So there are definitely going to be Guard and Tau lists where you prefer the 6+ FNP. Oh right, and against BS4+ Tyranids you probably want the 6+ FNP because you're worried about Genestealers, and a lot of their shooting is pretty close-range anyway.

And then Raven Guard are ridiculously good against shooty Orks outside of 12". I'm not sure how much of this there is. Orks are mostly known for CC and you obviously want the Iron Hands' tactic there.

dosiere wrote:
For those who aren't really happy with these, honestly what can be done? The base rules don't allow much subtlety, all they can really do is +1 here, ignore this rule there, etc...

Agreed, the base rules took subtlety out back, stole the b and smashed the rest over the head with it.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

PoorGravitasHandling wrote:
Why would someone not take Salamanders at this point. Jesus Tapdancing Christ.

Agreed. Since none of these Chapters have unit restrictions there is zero downside to being Salamanders.

what if the salamnaders relic and stratigium suck?

The take away here is never build a GW chapter. I see a lot of people unhappy about their own chapter tactic and jealous of someone's elses. The people who have it say it sucks and the people who don't say it's awesome! lol

BrianDavion wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

PoorGravitasHandling wrote:
Why would someone not take Salamanders at this point. Jesus Tapdancing Christ.

Agreed. Since none of these Chapters have unit restrictions there is zero downside to being Salamanders.

what if the salamnaders relic and stratigium suck?

Then they will even out with the other chapters. If the Iron Hands have the absolutely kick ass Warlord Trait and Relic (Chains of the Gorgon perhaps?), people will be eating their words on their chapter tactics blowing. And honestly, given that the most commonly used Warlord trait, in my experience, has been the Ignore Wound one, they will have their Warlord trait freed up for something cool.

PoorGravitasHandling wrote:
Why would someone not take Salamanders at this point. Jesus Tapdancing Christ.

Because most people aren't WAAC:y bandwagoners and hopefully have some ounces of god damn loyalty towards their chapter?

If you turned up with non-green "Salamanders" at my club, you'd be instantly branded as TFG.

 MinscS2 wrote:

PoorGravitasHandling wrote:
Why would someone not take Salamanders at this point. Jesus Tapdancing Christ.

Because most people aren't WAAC:y bandwagoners and hopefully have some ounces of god damn loyalty towards their chapter?

If you turned up with non-green "Salamanders" at my club, you'd be instantly branded as TFG.

Err... what if you have a successor chapter? Or any homemade chapter that involves a focus on craftsmanship.

SilverAlien wrote:

 MinscS2 wrote:

PoorGravitasHandling wrote:
Why would someone not take Salamanders at this point. Jesus Tapdancing Christ.

Because most people aren't WAAC:y bandwagoners and hopefully have some ounces of god damn loyalty towards their chapter?

If you turned up with non-green "Salamanders" at my club, you'd be instantly branded as TFG.

Err... what if you have a successor chapter? Or any homemade chapter that involves a focus on craftsmanship.

Maybe I wasn't clear, but I was referring to actual chapters, i.e. if your Ultramarines suddenly become sons of Vulkan = TFG.

Yeah I'm pretty sure most people would give you stink-eye for that.

 MinscS2 wrote:

PoorGravitasHandling wrote:
Why would someone not take Salamanders at this point. Jesus Tapdancing Christ.

Because most people aren't WAAC:y bandwagoners and hopefully have some ounces of god damn loyalty towards their chapter?

If you turned up with non-green "Salamanders" at my club, you'd be instantly branded as TFG.

That's the silliest thing I've ever heard.

It sounds like everyone in your club is TFG.

It's a game, wanting the bonus that suits your playstyle is completely par for the course.

Hell, maybe on Tuesday I want to play Salamanders and on Thursday I want to play White Scars.
I'm not going to repaint all my stuff every 2 days just to play with bonus change.

 Desubot wrote:
Iron hands: sad trombone

At least they don't need to pay >65 pts for it like orks.

 koooaei wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
Iron hands: sad trombone

At least they don't need to pay >65 pts for it like orks.

65 points doesn't sound like much when you consider the opportunity cost of being a different CT

 MinscS2 wrote:

SilverAlien wrote:

 MinscS2 wrote:

PoorGravitasHandling wrote:
Why would someone not take Salamanders at this point. Jesus Tapdancing Christ.

Because most people aren't WAAC:y bandwagoners and hopefully have some ounces of god damn loyalty towards their chapter?

If you turned up with non-green "Salamanders" at my club, you'd be instantly branded as TFG.

Err... what if you have a successor chapter? Or any homemade chapter that involves a focus on craftsmanship.

Maybe I wasn't clear, but I was referring to actual chapters, i.e. if your Ultramarines suddenly become sons of Vulkan = TFG.

The obvious solution here is to never paint your marines. Today, my grey legion represents the Sons of Ultramar! Tomorrow, the scions of Vulkan!

Or maybe figure out a way to magnetize a paint job. I'm sure it's possible... somehow.

 Talamare wrote:

 MinscS2 wrote:

PoorGravitasHandling wrote:
Why would someone not take Salamanders at this point. Jesus Tapdancing Christ.

Because most people aren't WAAC:y bandwagoners and hopefully have some ounces of god damn loyalty towards their chapter?

If you turned up with non-green "Salamanders" at my club, you'd be instantly branded as TFG.

That's the silliest thing I've ever heard.

It sounds like everyone in your club is TFG.

It's a game, wanting the bonus that suits your playstyle is completely par for the course.

Hell, maybe on Tuesday I want to play Salamanders and on Thursday I want to play White Scars.
I'm not going to repaint all my stuff every 2 days just to play with bonus change.

So if an army looks like ultramarines and has ultramarine livery but acts like salamaders and uses salamander tactics, its fine then?
What, are they really Alpha Legionnaires who forgot to change their armor before posing as sallies?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 MinscS2 wrote:

SilverAlien wrote:

 MinscS2 wrote:

PoorGravitasHandling wrote:
Why would someone not take Salamanders at this point. Jesus Tapdancing Christ.

Because most people aren't WAAC:y bandwagoners and hopefully have some ounces of god damn loyalty towards their chapter?

If you turned up with non-green "Salamanders" at my club, you'd be instantly branded as TFG.

Err... what if you have a successor chapter? Or any homemade chapter that involves a focus on craftsmanship.

Maybe I wasn't clear, but I was referring to actual chapters, i.e. if your Ultramarines suddenly become sons of Vulkan = TFG.

The obvious solution here is to never paint your marines. Today, my grey legion represents the Sons of Ultramar! Tomorrow, the scions of Vulkan!

Or maybe figure out a way to magnetize a paint job. I'm sure it's possible... somehow.

Just have a colored lamp with you at all times. Green Light - Salamanders. Blue Light - Ultramarines.

For the record, I am totally fine with people proxying chapters since these chapter tactics are kind of bland so an Ultramarines task force using "Salamanders" tactics wouldn't really play that weird. Just say they're using the page of the Codex Astartes that says to not suck at shooting or something.

I played against Dark Eldar for a long while and that 6+ FNP on Wracks was a pain to get through. It saved units quite a bit.

I think we're underestimating the IH for effectiveness.

The Salamanders tactic is one reroll to both hit and wound per squad. It'll free up command points, but I'd prefer the BT, IH or RG tactics.

Perfect Organism 733160 9499290 wrote:How do you get chapter tactics? Are they just a free bonus like they were in 7th edition? If so, I hope the marine points costs have been increased to reflect them.

I imagine it will be a free bonus of your choice. For playing Space Marines.

Mark.

Puscifer wrote:
I played against Dark Eldar for a long while and that 6+ FNP on Wracks was a pain to get through. It saved units quite a bit.

I think we're underestimating the IH for effectiveness.

The Salamanders tactic is one reroll to both hit and wound per squad. It'll free up command points, but I'd prefer the BT, IH or RG tactics.

Idk, the sallies CT sounds really useful for meltas and lascannons.
IH probably has the most useful one, as its on all the time and is optimal in nearly all cases.

I'm just glad salamanders came out quite well off tbh

I think a lot depends on the army you want to run, which is as it should be. For instance people are going crazy for salamanders but if I have a character giving me re-rolls already it isn't such a huge boost. Whereas if I want to run a abundantly of dreads with tech marines backing them up to heal, that 6+ FNP could be huge. Now a lot will depend on that wins out competitively as to what we see a lot of, though right now that is storm Ravens so it is pretty irrelevant. I would say maybe rave guard is best in that build so that your token troops (if any) are harder to kill.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

So if an army looks like ultramarines and has ultramarine livery but acts like salamaders and uses salamander tactics, its fine then?
What, are they really Alpha Legionnaires who forgot to change their armor before posing as sallies?

Doesn't sound like even 1% of a problem.

If it's all the same models and have the same weapon. You can use whatever Chapter Tactics you want.

What you're proposing is for people to own several thousands of dollars of the exact same models just for a minor differences in benefits during a game.

So, I see a lot of people asking about and talking about the BA CT... But, doesn't is already exist in the index?

I can see the Black Rage rule as being intended as the CT, with the codex simply giving the rule to the rest of the army.

Anything else would come from a relic, warlord trait and stratagem.

Don't know a single person that would care if you said your Ultras were Salamanders.

Me and those I play with, and most people at my club only care about the fluff very peripherally. It's all about the game and the rules, so if someone enjoys playing more with the Salamanders rules, no one will care that he is playing with the Salamanders rules.

And it would be silly if just because you painted your marines pink instead of blue, you get your pick of the Chapters.

Kdash wrote:
So, I see a lot of people asking about and talking about the BA CT... But, doesn't is already exist in the index?

I can see the Black Rage rule as being intended as the CT, with the codex simply giving the rule to the rest of the army.

Anything else would come from a relic, warlord trait and stratagem.

Technically it is not listed as a Chapter Tactic - its more of a special thing for them. I expect they will get a CT.

More I think of this more convinced I am that they dropped the ball with Salamander tactics. RG might ultimately be more powerful, but at least it might result interesting games as the enemy tries to manoeuvre in the range and RG tries to keep the distance. Salamanders tactic just grants free rerolls no matter what, it is always effective. This alone would not be a problem, albeit a bit boring, IH tactic is like that as well. However, using marine characters and CPs for rerolls seemed to be an important aspect of the game, and Salamander tactics pretty much trivialises those, and that's a bad thing.

 Mr Morden wrote:

Kdash wrote:
So, I see a lot of people asking about and talking about the BA CT... But, doesn't is already exist in the index?

I can see the Black Rage rule as being intended as the CT, with the codex simply giving the rule to the rest of the army.

Anything else would come from a relic, warlord trait and stratagem.

Technically it is not listed as a Chapter Tactic - its more of a special thing for them. I expect they will get a CT.

It isn't a Chapter Tactic. It is listed because it is a special rule that several units have. It is not something that affects every Blood Angels unit.

Speaking of swapping out CT's, anyone I find playing a BT army with another CT than the BT one, at minimum I'll be rolling my eyes and wondering why they play 40k in the first darn place. If you're not into the fluff, you're not into the one good aspect of the 40k game. It's not a good game. It can be fun, but you need some story to make it fun.

 Selym wrote:
Speaking of swapping out CT's, anyone I find playing a BT army with another CT than the BT one, at minimum I'll be rolling my eyes and wondering why they play 40k in the first darn place. If you're not into the fluff, you're not into the one good aspect of the 40k game. It's not a good game. It can be fun, but you need some story to make it fun.

Yeah, well, that's just like.... your opinion, man.

Just play Blood Ravens. That way you can "borrow" Chapter Tactics

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

PoorGravitasHandling wrote:
Why would someone not take Salamanders at this point. Jesus Tapdancing Christ.

Agreed. Since none of these Chapters have unit restrictions there is zero downside to being Salamanders.

what if the salamnaders relic and stratigium suck?

Then they will even out with the other chapters. If the Iron Hands have the absolutely kick ass Warlord Trait and Relic (Chains of the Gorgon perhaps?), people will be eating their words on their chapter tactics blowing. And honestly, given that the most commonly used Warlord trait, in my experience, has been the Ignore Wound one, they will have their Warlord trait freed up for something cool.

If the IH can create smash the CT will still suck. Being able to make a single Model or unit really resilient does not make for a good CT. A good CT should be something you can build your army around and take full advantage of. You can't do that with the IH CT. Hoping for a 6 is not a good tactic or strategy. The RG CT is better simply because it can be gamed and maximized. Right now there is exactly one unit that really benefits noticeably from the IH CT and that is the Venerable Dreadnought.

As far as the whole Razorback spam thing goes, they are too expensive, you can't spam enough of them this edition for them to be effective. They are shut down too easily just by charging them, and I honestly do not like them. Dislike them almost as much as Kardan Stronos who is one of the worst characters to ever be created in the fluff imo.

IH have had the fnp ct for several editions now and it just has not been good or reliable. People vastly overestimate it's usefulness.