Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

MaxT wrote:
First rule of dakka is really that every thread eventually ends with sisters players bitching

Hey, they got a right to, take your lumps.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 ross-128 wrote:
Merging all the non-SM Imperium factions into a single book is especially silly when you consider Space Marines themselves get five or six different books to cover their various flavors.

That would cause the publishing cycle to be even more heavily saturated with Space Marines, with GW only rarely acknowledging "oh yeah other armies kinda exist".

There should really only be a few Space Marine codices:
1. Space Marines
2. Grey Knights
3. Space Wolves
4. Deathwatch

There's absolutely no reason for Death Angels and Blood Angels to be separate. Plus there's no reason Vanilla Marines shouldn't have some of their options, and no reason the angels shouldn't have some of their options. It's ridiculous.

Deathwatch and Grey Knights should just be put in their corresponding Ordos books. So Deathwatch in Ordos Xenos which also features rules for Ordos Xenos Inquisitors and their retinues and Grey Knights in Ordos Malleus which has options for Ordos Malleus Inquisitors. Then there is Ordos Hereticus with the Sisters of Battle, Hereticus Inquisitors and other members of the Ecclesiarchy. They come together as three separate softbacks in a cardboard case.

Pretty surprised at the nerd rage. Someone had to win. That its Astra Militarum is a good sign that forgotten factions are forgotten no more. There may need to be some changes, i won't argue against that. Not saying the codex's won't look different. Just surprised at some of the vociferous responses. I have played with Dark Eldar, Militarum Tempestus, T'au Empire, and Chaos Space Marines (I'll be trying out my Sisters of Battle after i play some more Chaos for the Konor campaign). I'm 20-2 including tournaments. One of those losses was a "time out" loss in which my opponent had 4 near dead models left by turn 3. The army hasn't seemed to make a difference, and that is after all, what we wanted right? We wanted to see the armies matter less, which would indicate parity. I am seeing parity.

I would also like to say that other than the Dark Eldar, I have been using Brigades for all the other forces. It's not as if i spammed anything in particular. Even with the Dark Eldar, I was mostly just unable to rebuild my old list given the way Elites are now so what can ya do? Same problem will happen with Sisters of Battle, sadly. So I am seeign that you can play a reasonably non-spammy list and win.

The Conscript army is one I saw at the tournament I just attended and it was good.

Anywho, I'm liking the parity I am seeing.

Also, look at the lists most people took. A HEAVY Imperial concentration so its not surprising many factions didn't get their day in court, not really.

 Aenarian wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 ross-128 wrote:
Merging all the non-SM Imperium factions into a single book is especially silly when you consider Space Marines themselves get five or six different books to cover their various flavors.

That would cause the publishing cycle to be even more heavily saturated with Space Marines, with GW only rarely acknowledging "oh yeah other armies kinda exist".

There should really only be a few Space Marine codices:
1. Space Marines
2. Grey Knights
3. Space Wolves
4. Deathwatch

There's absolutely no reason for Death Angels and Blood Angels to be separate. Plus there's no reason Vanilla Marines shouldn't have some of their options, and no reason the angels shouldn't have some of their options. It's ridiculous.

I'm curious as to why Dark/Blood Angels should be included within the main codex and Deathwatch not? Just add a few more special weapons and equipment and you'll have that army included as well.

With Blood Angels and Dark Angels it's really easy. They get one thing for Chapter Tactics, 1-2 special units (as they have too many redundant units), and then we give access to different equipment (why don't Vanilla Marines have Hand Flamers, Inferno Pistols, or even Plasma Cannons on their Terminators? Why don't either have Centurions or TFC?)

Deathwatch is complicated to just bring in. The army has nothing in common, and tons of bizarre equipment. It shouldn't be a very expensive codex though.

 jeff white wrote:

 Arkaine wrote:
But in previous editions, the Lords could be stronger than the special characters due to wargear customization. Even HeroHammer was a thing in Fantasy. Special named characters weren't the crux of these days but rather your personally named avatar warlord with the bajillion upgrades.

This edition is the closest chess equivalent we've had yet thanks to stratagems allowing for a sense of choice and the careful evaluation of resource expenditure according to what your opponent is likely to do. Past editions effectively played themselves if you were always performing the optimal play.

So what?
Fixing herohammer - this is easy enough.
What does that have to do with named characters and buff-junkies doing what buff-junkies do?
Point is stop feeding the buff junkies.
Srategems seem cool but we have yet to see the rest of them.

And how is your second statement not true now?
The easiest way to make a more even less buff junkie rewarding system is with universal rules.
Everything in special words on different scrolls or slates is not helping.

See the earlier conversation.

My second statement is not true now because you no longer simply autoplay the game. Stratagems have introduced a high potential for actual decision making in battles. Even barring any future ones that we have yet to see, the reroll Stratagem has been proven to make or break games based on when you choose to use it or not use it. Limited resources means limited rerolls, not being able to do it multiple times per phase or to multiple dice at once, all of this leads to players having to imagine the outcome of the battle and determine when to risk a CP on a crucial reroll. Squander them and you won't have them for when a truly vital roll comes along. Now that more Stratagems are coming along that allow you to do even more effects, like shooting twice with Slaanesh units, when you choose to expend CP is going to be be even more match-deciding.

Universal rules are bad because they make it harder to change a single rule. I sense your complaint stems from not being to easily and readily understand your enemy's capabilities without buying his codex or studying his build sheet. But I can't sympathize here. The game has taken a logical step forward toward balancing units as individuals rather than a sum of their points. The fact that they gave Possessed an extra wound without a point increase is evidence that they're balancing now at the individual level rather than the old methods of just totaling the cost of stats and weapons on a model and calling it fair.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 ross-128 wrote:
Merging all the non-SM Imperium factions into a single book is especially silly when you consider Space Marines themselves get five or six different books to cover their various flavors.

That would cause the publishing cycle to be even more heavily saturated with Space Marines, with GW only rarely acknowledging "oh yeah other armies kinda exist".

There should really only be a few Space Marine codices:
1. Space Marines
2. Grey Knights
3. Space Wolves
4. Deathwatch

There's absolutely no reason for Death Angels and Blood Angels to be separate. Plus there's no reason Vanilla Marines shouldn't have some of their options, and no reason the angels shouldn't have some of their options. It's ridiculous.

Deathwatch and Grey Knights should just be put in their corresponding Ordos books. So Deathwatch in Ordos Xenos which also features rules for Ordos Xenos Inquisitors and their retinues and Grey Knights in Ordos Malleus which has options for Ordos Malleus Inquisitors. Then there is Ordos Hereticus with the Sisters of Battle, Hereticus Inquisitors and other members of the Ecclesiarchy. They come together as three separate softbacks in a cardboard case.

I can live with Ordo being its own codex, and then Grey Knights and Deathwatch go in there too.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:


Deathwatch is complicated to just bring in. The army has nothing in common, and tons of bizarre equipment. It shouldn't be a very expensive codex though.

But is all that bizaree equipment necessary?

You have Xenophase Blades, Deathwatch Shotguns, Frag Cannons, Power Fist with Meltagun, Heavy Thunder Hammer and some wargear (Auspex Array, Infernum Halo-launcher), as well as the Guardian Spear I guess. I might have missed something. Otherwise, they're just an army comprised of marine veterans? The only really unique unit is the Corvus Blackstar, and their ability to mix. Dark Angels have about the same unique stuff, and more unique units. So I think an argument that having Deathwatch as a separate army while older more established ones are included in the main codex is quite weird. Instead, just fold it into an Inquisition one or something and make the marine codices Space Marines, Space Wolves and Inquisiton & Friends as said.

1) Conscripts should have an armor save of 6+ and max squad size of 30 would fix 99% of the problems. Then suddenly they die easier and order are no longer nearly as effective.

2) In regard to scions infantry squads are not a problem. The only issue people had (rightfully so) is the command squad spam which has been resolved by forcing you to buy a 40pt commander.

3) Banning FW stuff is insane since many people pay so much money to use those cool models. It is part of the game banning FW models would really put off many people.

4) Plasma is good, but if you want to overcharge it there is a significant risk. I am not sure if it is overpriced when it hits on a 4+ (depending on the unit). The real problem is melta needs improved rules or a price reduction. So I recommend increasing the cost of plasma guns by 1pt (8pts) and reduce the cost of melta by 2pts (10pts).

Overall, the winning lists seem to have a good spread of different lists and armies. I think as codexes continue to come out will continue to see many more options and list variety. I think the game seems pretty balanced even with the small tweaks we are suggesting. I remember editions of the game where it was over before it even started. I really love 8th edition!

broxus wrote:


4) Plasma is good, but if you want to overcharge it there is a significant risk. I am not sure if it is overpriced when it hits on a 4+ (depending on the unit). The real problem is melta needs improved rules or a price reduction. So I recommend increasing the cost of plasma guns by 1pt (8pts) and reduce the cost of melta by 2pts (10pts).

Plasma guns should cost 13 points like SM ones do.

I'd think that making Scions drop from at least 12" away instead of 9" away would be a good move. There isn't much counter play when they can make up their points in a single turn of shooting in that double tap range.

Conscripts being a maximum size of 20 would make them equally to buff with orders as veteran squad for point cost.

And I think the commissar shouldn't be able to make squads only take a maximum of one loss during a moral test. He might be able to instill fear in men to make nobody flee but I don't think he can save the men who have their minds completely broken by battlefield losses. Those who are babbling mad can't be saved by any amount of leadership.

broxus wrote:1) Conscripts should have an armor save of 6+ and max squad size of 30 would fix 99% of the problems. Then suddenly they die easier and order are no longer nearly as effective.

2) In regard to scions infantry squads are not a problem. The only issue people had (rightfully so) is the command squad spam which has been resolved by forcing you to buy a 40pt commander.

3) Banning FW stuff is insane since many people pay so much money to use those cool models. It is part of the game banning FW models would really put off many people.

4) Plasma is good, but if you want to overcharge it there is a significant risk. I am not sure if it is overpriced when it hits on a 4+ (depending on the unit). The real problem is melta needs improved rules or a price reduction. So I recommend increasing the cost of plasma guns by 1pt (8pts) and reduce the cost of melta by 2pts (10pts).

Overall, the winning lists seem to have a good spread of different lists and armies. I think as codexes continue to come out will continue to see many more options and list variety. I think the game seems pretty balanced even with the small tweaks we are suggesting. I remember editions of the game where it was over before it even started. I really love 8th edition!

Blackie wrote:

broxus wrote:


4) Plasma is good, but if you want to overcharge it there is a significant risk. I am not sure if it is overpriced when it hits on a 4+ (depending on the unit). The real problem is melta needs improved rules or a price reduction. So I recommend increasing the cost of plasma guns by 1pt (8pts) and reduce the cost of melta by 2pts (10pts).

Plasma guns should cost 13 points like SM ones do.

Plasma for both should be S5 AP-1 with OC S7 AP-3

Before I hear "That normal profile is bad" it should be, you're not buying that. You're buying the OC.

 Melissia wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
Assumption that those armies stagnate and die in one book, is no more valid than the reality that they are stagnating and dying right now in their own separate snowflake books.

Even with Sisters stagnating separately in the gameplay, we actually got new lore in the previous codices before Imperial Agents. New lore, new artwork, and so on.

Really? I don't remember their WD dex having much in the way of lore at all.

Breng77 wrote:
So yeah not really hurting lots of non-space marine players

I specified imperial earlier in this thread, and that's the context behidn that statement.

Even then it isn't hurting those players based on current releases

Breng77 wrote:
Personally I'm sad to see the return of codices at all, I think they are a terrible design practice. on the flip side carrying 10 books for your army sucks.

What the feth-ass kind of army are you using that requires ten books? Inquisition? Well tough gak, that's the nature of Inquisition. They explicitly aren't an army in and of themselves. They are powerful leaders that take command of, hire, or otherwise acquire other armies. Really, Inquisitors should actually be Lord of War material with their retinue giving them powerful support, debuff, and survivability powers depending on how the retinue is built; but that's an entirely different gripe.

You missed the point, I'd like to see no codex books at all but see units released in say campaign books as then you can add smaller numbers of units for each faction at a time. The issue with that is that you would need to carry 10 books to a game. A good middle road would be releasing the data slates with the models and then having a single GHB for points like AOS. Then leave the fluff to fluff books.

Breng77 wrote:
I disagree I think adding new books instead of updating existing books was bad, which is what happened. Why update sisters when we can have admech, or more flavors of marines.

By that definition, the first thing they should have done this edition is release Sisters of Battle as their opening codex, but that's not what's happened, and let's be realistic, it was never going to happen. In your ideal fairyland world with unicorns and rainbows, everyone can be crammed inside of a few tiny books but still be supported just as well if not better than they currently are. I fail to see how, with such a vivid imagination as would craft such an unlikely scenario, you cannot also imagine the idea of GW continuing to pump out a book or two every month until everyone has gotten an update, then add new subfactions in order to add even more variety ot the gameplay.

And yes, a game without variety is a worse game than one with more. If I wanted to play a game without variety, I'd toss away my miniatures and go be boring and pick up chess.

The game already has variety, at some point variety become bloat which is bad. Also no what I said in no way means Sisters should have been first, just that maybe they should have gotten a proper update before GW released Ad mech, Sisters of silence, Custodes, Skitari, GSC etc.

If GW had any track record of actually updating all their factions in a meaningful way then I could imagine GW both adding more factions to the game, and updating their existing models. What typically happens instead is that they don't update factions and editions change causing tons of issues. It would be better if there were no codex books in this scenario as releases could happen for armies at various times which could keep them better up to date.

Oh look, conscripts are becoming a must take for any imperial army, because they are absurdly undercosted for their durability alone. What a shocker. It's not like this was apparent to most of the player base (ignoring a handful of guard players lost in their delusions of what balanced guard looks like) for months now.

Breng77 wrote:
Really? I don't remember their WD dex having much in the way of lore at all.

Oh look you conveniently forget important details how surprising.

The WD dex actually did have new lore. Not a terribly large amount of it, but it was the first new lore outside of Black Library that we got since third edition. It was considered one of the few positive aspects of it. Same with the pdf book after it.

Breng77 wrote:
You missed the point

No, I just think it's a gakky point to begin with.

Breng77 wrote:
The game already has variety

For space Marines, maybe. For Sisters of Battle? Hell no there isn't variety. Marines have more named characters than Sisters have units. By a wide margin. And with your myopic view of "variety", you're okay with this.

SilverAlien wrote:
Oh look, conscripts are becoming a must take for any imperial army, because they are absurdly undercosted for their durability alone. What a shocker. It's not like this was apparent to most of the player base (ignoring a handful of guard players lost in their delusions of what balanced guard looks like) for months now.

The top Grey Knights player at BAO had 30 conscripts and a commissar. He also had a flyer wing with Space Marines fliers that GK don't have access to.

I was thinking about how I could improve my list.

Conscripts + Commissar really is perfect for any imperium list, so i'll add some. In addition to massive area denial and the ability to almost guarantee holding an objective, they are also 2 boots on the ground for the purposes of deployment, which really helps a near 100% deep strike army that can't null deploy.

Then i figured I should add some artillery because i'll have the bubble. And if someone does alpha my bubble i have an amazing beta strike. So, i figured Manticores, would be the perfect addition, since Grey Knights lack anti-tank.

Additionally, I should probably add another Guard HQ to buff the tanks. Maybe a master of ordnance.

Now, on to my beta strike. What can i do to improve it? I figured, I have decent dakka, but i could really use cheaper, stronger shots for instances when I face something with a toughness 5+. The best, cheapest option is plasma scions. So, I'll add some of those.

Now, i've got my Grey Knights list filled out:

Conscripts + commissar
Manticores
Probably Pask
Plasma Scions
Draigo
Strike squad

At this point i'm really only using draigo to reroll storm bolter shots, so i can probably drop him. He's iconic but 240 points to reroll 2s just isn't worth it. In fact, I could just add more conscripts, and some Vultures. It'll be cheaper, more mobile dakka than PAGK and i don't need to bring Draigo.

Nice! I've just made the perfect Grey Knights list. Without any Grey Knights.

It's the BA "solution" from 7th. Take out all the BA and get IoM allies that work.

Martel732 wrote:
It's the BA "solution" from 7th. Take out all the BA and get IoM allies that work.

My friend plays Blood Angels and is really struggling. He lost a game recently to Guard without getting his second turn. Can you PM me a good BA list for him to try out? He's got a decent amount of DC, Astorath, Lemartes, Terminators, Land Raider, Storm Raven, Vindicator, Rhino, TAC squads, devastator squads, drop pods, Dreadnoughts... I am trying to help him, but I simply don't know what to suggest.

It's kinda hilarious how people were worried codices would "destroy" the fragile balance of the game, when a lot of armies still aren't worth running, and 1-2 are basically full of must take units.

Honestly, I'm not even sure codices are strong enough to change the meta. It'll be interesting to see going forward.

 Melissia wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
Really? I don't remember their WD dex having much in the way of lore at all.

Oh look you conveniently forget important details how surprising.

The WD dex actually did have new lore. Not a terribly large amount of it, but it was the first new lore outside of Black Library that we got since third edition. It was considered one of the few positive aspects of it. Same with the pdf book after it.

Breng77 wrote:
You missed the point

No, I just think it's a gakky point to begin with.

Breng77 wrote:
The game already has variety

For space Marines, maybe. For Sisters of Battle? Hell no there isn't variety. Marines have more named characters than Sisters have units. By a wide margin. And with your myopic view of "variety", you're okay with this.

Love the condescension....You did miss the point by asking what army I ran that required 10 books, the point was if codices were done away with there is a chance I would need to take 10 books...which you missed.

The game as a whole is not limited to Marines and Sisters. Sisters could use some more variety, the game on the whole doesn't need tons more variety to have enough to be interesting, there are a good number of distinct factions, with distinct units. I'd rather see all these units made usable than to have more stuff added to the game. Further if we aren't considering restricting the imperium (the genesis to this entire discussion), then sisters have more variety available to them than half the game. It just isn't variety you want because you want to play pure sisters. I already said I'd be fine with sisters having their own book if their line was expanded to warrant having one, otherwise I'd rather see them included in an Imperium book. We don't agree, that is fine, I'll rest easy that at least I can have a polite conversion without condescending to the other party and resulting to vulgarity.

Breng77 wrote:
You did miss the point by asking what army I ran that required 10 books, the point was if codices were done away with there is a chance I would need to take 10 books...which you missed.

I'm pretty sure this is a typo, because otherwise you're saying your own suggestion would force you to take ten books, which shows how little thought you're putting in to your posts.

Regardless, your claim was nothing more than pointless hyperbole, which is to say your whine about having to have "ten books" for your army was ridiculous; one cannot miss the point if there is no point to miss. Hell, your idea doesn't even reduce the number of books, because if one wanted lore-- and most people do-- you'd still have to buy "ten books!". Frankly, if you want to reduce the number of books, you'd stuff everything in the core rulebook instead, making it an enormous, ponderous tome not unlike the ones Sisters have chained to their hips and probably costing 200 bucks or more to buy.

Breng77 wrote:
The game as a whole is not limited to Marines and Sisters.

Irrelevant.

Breng77 wrote:
I'd rather see all these units made usable than to have more stuff added to the game.

Most units in the game are usable as they are right now; the ones that aren't-- grots, termagants, and so on-- will get a chance to be fixed when their books come out (though frankly they probably won't, knowing GW's history). It's mainly in the very top tier competitive circuits that you see a massive skew towards very specific units and lists.

As noted, Eldar, Orks, Necrons, etc are going to get their own books, and in those books they can get their broken units fixed and get additional units, making your pointless whining little more than a distraction from the topic at hand.

Breng77 wrote:
It just isn't variety you want because you want to play pure sisters.

You're right. In fact, let's take this argument to its logical extreme; Let's let Eldar take Space Marines, and Tyranids take Space Marines, and Necrons take Space Marines, and Orks take Space Marines, and Tau take Space Marines. Space Marines for everyone! That way, every time Space Marines get updated, every faction gets more units!

This statement is ridiculous on its face, and works on the assumption that playing lore-based armies or armies with a consistent aesthetic is a bad thing. Sisters of Battle explicitly and specifically aren't Space Marines. Shoving them in to a book with Space Marines is like shoving Tyranids in to the Eldar codex. Hey, what's the problem? They're both fast-moving, psychic heavy armies!

If the problem is the allies rules, then fix the damn allies rules, don't screw over factions just because you, yourself, aren't particularly interested in them. Or to say it in another way; when you want to turn a screw, you reach for the screwdriver, not the jackhammer.

 Melissia wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
You did miss the point by asking what army I ran that required 10 books, the point was if codices were done away with there is a chance I would need to take 10 books...which you missed.

I'm pretty sure this is a typo, because otherwise you're saying your own suggestion would force you to take ten books, which shows how little thought you're putting in to your posts.

Regardless, your claim was nothing more than pointless hyperbole, which is to say your whine about having to have "ten books" for your army was ridiculous; one cannot miss the point if there is no point to miss. Hell, your idea doesn't even reduce the number of books, because if one wanted lore-- and most people do-- you'd still have to buy "ten books!". Frankly, if you want to reduce the number of books, you'd stuff everything in the core rulebook instead, making it an enormous, ponderous tome not unlike the ones Sisters have chained to their hips and probably costing 200 bucks or more to buy.

Breng77 wrote:
The game as a whole is not limited to Marines and Sisters.

Irrelevant.

Breng77 wrote:
I'd rather see all these units made usable than to have more stuff added to the game.

Most units in the game are usable as they are right now; the ones that aren't-- grots, termagants, and so on-- will get a chance to be fixed when their books come out (though frankly they probably won't, knowing GW's history). It's mainly in the very top tier competitive circuits that you see a massive skew towards very specific units and lists.

As noted, Eldar, Orks, Necrons, etc are going to get their own books, and in those books they can get their broken units fixed and get additional units, making your pointless whining little more than a distraction from the topic at hand.

Breng77 wrote:
It just isn't variety you want because you want to play pure sisters.

You're right. In fact, let's take this argument to its logical extreme; Let's let Eldar take Space Marines, and Tyranids take Space Marines, and Necrons take Space Marines, and Orks take Space Marines, and Tau take Space Marines. Space Marines for everyone! That way, every time Space Marines get updated, every faction gets more units!

This statement is ridiculous on its face, and works on the assumption that playing lore-based armies or armies with a consistent aesthetic is a bad thing. Sisters of Battle explicitly and specifically aren't Space Marines. Shoving them in to a book with Space Marines is like shoving Tyranids in to the Eldar codex. Hey, what's the problem? They're both fast-moving, psychic heavy armies!

If the problem is the allies rules, then fix the damn allies rules, don't screw over factions just because you, yourself, aren't particularly interested in them. Or to say it in another way; when you want to turn a screw, you reach for the screwdriver, not the jackhammer.

My point was for game balance the codex release cycle is a terrible method of rules delivery. Releasing new rules for all factions at the same time would be a more effective way of updating and releasing new models. The downside to that method (as I said) is that you would need 10 books (possible hyperbole) to play your army. So again you missed what I was saying. Perhaps it could have been more clear, but you missed it. Yes I did say my own suggestion had drawbacks, which shows I did think about it not that I did not.

In a discussion of variety, it is not irrelevant that the game is more than marines and sisters.

Not all units in the game are near equally viable, and they never have been I'd rather see those gaps closed than add new units that either go straight to the shelf, or are stupid overpowered. This is true for any meta that is at all competitive. If you don't care about winning anything is viable.

As for everything taking space marines, they aren't allowed, sisters are. WHICH IS THE WHOLE PROBLEM THAT STARTED THIS DISCUSSION: "THE IMPERIUM AS A SINGLE FACTION IS DUMB FROM A BALANCE STANDPOINT." as such I suggested limiting the "allies" to single primary factions with limits on what else could be taken. One of those factions was "Imperial Agents" which based on the current state of sisters, included sisters. If sisters got their own tome with 40 sisters units, I'd be thrilled, but they don't have that. This in no way "screws" those factions, in fact it requires them to buy fewer books (cannot ally in guard or space marines, only 1 book for everything they can take), you just don't like it because it isn't your ideal outcome of a fully supported sisters book. Now if sisters do get full support, great then they get their own book, if not why do we need a ton of books. Heck for all I care all the "agents of the imperium" can each have their own book and then they can only ally with each other. The issue is that right now Half the game is made up of a single faction (GW has said sisters and space marines are sub factions of the same faction), and that is dumb from a standpoint of competitive balance. So for matched play I would rather see it restricted as I originally stated, whether or not all those factions are in a single book.

Heck sisters aren't even my biggest issue in the whole thing I think Sisters of Silence, Custodes, Knights, Assassins, Deathwatch and Inquisition are all stupid as far as being stand alone books because they are all tiny factions with almost no units. So if you want to limit just those "armies" to one book and sisters be separate that is fine. But if they cannot take inquisitors sisters lose some fluffy interactions as would GK. So maybe have those 2 be separate "agents of the imperium" books, that work with the collection of those smaller armies, because it is fluffy.

Yeah, something needs to be done about the ally situation. Because it hurts smaller armies as well. Anemic army lists can be justified with "well just ally in x or y".

Breng77 wrote:
My point was for game balance the codex release cycle is a terrible method of rules delivery.

However, it's also the most practical method. By focusing on each army in turn, GW can give the armies the love and attention they deserve. Notice I said "can", not "do"-- I still hold that it's much less likely as a practical matter that they'd be able to devote as much attention to the non-frontpage armies in one giant combined book.

Breng77 wrote:
In a discussion of variety, it is not irrelevant that the game is more than marines and sisters.

Not when discussing the internal variety of the Sisters of Battle army, not that you appear to give a damn about that.

Breng77 wrote:
Not all units in the game are near equally viable

That's not what I said.

Breng77 wrote:
As for everything taking space marines, they aren't allowed, sisters are.

Barring Celestine-- who, to give context to this problem, was re-introduced in 7th edition not as a Sisters of Battle character but as her own unique character available to all the Imperium thus causing a huge mess as every competitive Imperial army took her (and caused a lot of upset Sisters players because the Imperial Agents book didn't actually have a single Sisters named character, and not a single Sisters HQ other than the Canoness)-- most people who are in to Sisters are in to them because they like the lore, the aesthetics, or the playstyle. And of those, none of them are really improved by adding Space Marines to the mix like you suggest should be done.

You said, to paraphrase, that sure in your solution Sisters might not get new things, but at least they can take Space Marines in the form of Grey Knights and Deathwatch. In other words, you're the one that's suggesting Sisters SHOULD have to rely on Marines in order to get variety.

And the spiteful donkey-cave in me says "if Sisters have to rely on allying in Space Marines to get variety, then fething everyone should have to." You're not giving me any good reasons not to listen to the spiteful donkey-cave in me.

Breng77 wrote:
So maybe have those 2 be separate "agents of the imperium" books

Agents of the imperium was a wildly unpopular and hated book, and for good reason.

So, looking at those lists... How much did going first play into their win/loss percentage?

broxus wrote:
3) Banning FW stuff is insane since many people pay so much money to use those cool models. It is part of the game banning FW models would really put off many people.

At this state Forge World is little more than a pay-to-win button. The rules that ForgeWorld has made for their models are extremely poorly balanced, not playtested and not proof-read.

again missing the point

Maybe sisters and GK get their own fully supported codices as part of the faction "agents of the imperium" which allows them to ally with codex "agents of the imperium" Which includes the Inquisition, sisters of silence, assassins, Deathwatch (because they are part of the inquisition), and Knights You could call it something else for all I care since "agents of the imperium" is apparently a trigger for you.

I'm not suggesting that Sisters SHOULD have to rely on marines, but instead that they might have to if GW doesn't do their job and expand their line...as you noted your self GW could do this, whether they do it remains to be seen.

As for units being equally viable, it may not be what you said, but it is what I desire.

As to internal variety of Sisters, I'd love to see them get more units. I'm just not sure they will whether they get a new book or not. They have not gotten new units (other than Celestine) in more than 3 editions, they don't even have plastic kits. So any release of them would either just stick with what they have, or re-do what they have in plastic, which may not have any new units included.

So to paraphrase my solution "In case sisters don't get new things, at least they can use allies if players desire, if they get new stuff great, but if people want to use them as a force with the inquisition as they could in the past, they could still do that too."

pismakron wrote:

broxus wrote:
3) Banning FW stuff is insane since many people pay so much money to use those cool models. It is part of the game banning FW models would really put off many people.

At this state Forge World is little more than a pay-to-win button. The rules that ForgeWorld has made for their models are extremely poorly balanced, not playtested and not proof-read.

Tbh, normal 40K is only marginally better on the balance and playtesting. Better on the proofreading though I agree.

Breng77 wrote:
again missing the point

You're not making a point to miss.

Breng77 wrote:
Maybe sisters and GK get their own fully supported codices as part of the faction "agents of the imperium"

Why not just change how allies rules work to begin with?

Breng77 wrote:
I'm not suggesting that Sisters SHOULD have to rely on marines

Actually, that's pretty much what you did. "Hey, if we stuff Sisters in this book, they get more stuff to take!"

You know that telling Marine players "sure conscripts are op, but hey, you can make use of them, yourself!" isn't going to make many people smile, right? Because that's the same thing.

Breng77 wrote:
As for units being equally viable, it may not be what you said, but it is what I desire.

Yeah it'd be nice, but it shoveling Sisters in to some half-assed "Imperial Agents" book isn't going to cause more units to be equally viable. Overpowered units will still be overpowered, underpowered units will still be underpowered. Or to rephrase myself: if you want to remove a nail, I grab the claw hammer, not the dynamite.

Breng77 wrote:
They have not gotten new units (other than Celestine) in more than 3 editions

Celestine isn't "new." Her bodyguards are, but that's really just an extension of the rules she's had since 3rd edition of being a super-durable tarpit character.

And it's not three editions that we haven't gotten new units, but five.

Rickels wrote:

Breng77 wrote:

Rickels wrote:
If conscripts are the "meta" then you just have to work out a way to beat them. You will start seeing massive ork armies with 150+ orks, banners and warboss with some weirdboys to teleport a squad within 9", congo to the warboss, advance and then charge those conscript units.

6+/5+ with only double shots and then dying in drove on a 2+/3+.

Stop being so nerf happy and figure out a way to beat the current meta instead of relying on GW to do it for you.

So your 30 orks are going to kill a ton of conscripts?

Against a squad of 50 conscripts 5 orks die to overwatch, if you congaline back to your buffs (lets say ghaz, and a weirdboy giving them +2 attacks, and the banner) you probably have 15 boyz attacking (5 died, probably 10 not in range once you conga back to your buffs) So you have 3 base attacks +3 from bonuses so 6 attacks each. 90 attacks, kills 33 conscripts, 17 remaining kill 2 more orks. Those guys fall back on their turn, and the rest of that ork squad dies. The issue is that if you trade 30 orks for 30 conscripts you will lose the game.

But yes that is one of the armies that might have a chance against conscripts spam + killy stuff.

You are assuming you lose 5 orks in overwatch but you are forgetting that you can stagger units, that first unit that ported in is just the wound soaking damage for the other unit coming at the conscripts. Lock any other conscript unit nearby in the following consolidation and then force orders to be get back in the fight, which halves the effectiveness of the conscript wall.

In your world of mathhammer you are missing the most vital portion of the game we are playing, space. You literally will be so crowded with those conscript spam you are never ever EVER going to get the mythical figure of 200 shots, ever.

The mathhammer also misses out on the strategy.

If I'm depending on getting 30 boyz into CC, I'm assaulting with something else first specifically to draw their overwatch out early so I can charge in with the boyz and maximize the effects of any buffs I've got going.

It's what small groups of Komandoes are for. It's also why assaulting with transports is so popular.

pismakron wrote:

broxus wrote:
3) Banning FW stuff is insane since many people pay so much money to use those cool models. It is part of the game banning FW models would really put off many people.

At this state Forge World is little more than a pay-to-win button. The rules that ForgeWorld has made for their models are extremely poorly balanced, not playtested and not proof-read.

And yet people complain more about GW models such as Conscripts and Stormravens than FW models. I will admit that Forge World is broken, but in other ways than being an p2w. Some FW choices are superior yes, but when you get an additional 50 units, some of them are bound to be superior to the ones you previously had.