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For the record, AdMech is not a bad army. In fact, most armies are much better off today than in 7E (aside from Eldar). The problem is that there are a lot of broken things in Guard; Scions seem okay now, but Conscripts, Elysians, and their artillery are still nightmares.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Spera wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:
I don't even consider sisters viable until they get a plastic kit or you win the lottery.

Alternatively you could do sisters of silence with converting

Yes, your wallet will cry, but they are good. They are viable for sure, one of best army to mix in. Price of models is real bummer thou. But if you have one that are collecting dust on shelf now is good time to take them of since they haven't been this strong since 3'rd ed. While they lack in flexibility, they are basically one trick pony, they do they one thing really good. So happens that this is area where we lack.

I'll look into them, but perhaps Seph as a Deep Strike screen might be better than using Sisters as a whole offensively.

Hadn't thought about that. i'll have to go look them up. i know both the models for them are angelic (pun fully intended) and also conversion opportunities for them abound.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Suzuteo wrote:
For the record, AdMech is not a bad army. In fact, most armies are much better off today than in 7E (aside from Eldar). The problem is that there are a lot of broken things in Guard; Scions seem okay now, but Conscripts, Elysians, and their artillery are still nightmares.

if they'd take the whole does not need line of site out the artillery wouldn't be as broken. but it would also really be uncouth and unfluffy Maybe "does not need line of sight but if you fire at a unit this model cannot see subtract 1 from the hit roll" would have been a good compromise.

I think we need to construct section in guide "Best Competitive Core"
Give list for core for pure Ad Mech, so Mars artillery +stygies screen for like 1700pts and explain what you can do with last 300 to adjust list.

And then we could officialy take on less and non competitive play, shenanigans and so on. We would have to revisit this section only after next codex comes up, or some strange list will come up into meta.

I feel that we need this because even thou best of the best option is already known, half of us want to still compare and analyze in perspective of "best of the best", and half want to analyze units overall, even if they are bad. And we are arguing when we shouldn't.

We need this because otherwise we will stagnate. I for example, gonna test assault ad mech soon. I know that this isn't best(or maybe it is 0_o) but could grant greater insight into our melee units and how to use them.

If I had a minimum core, it would be this:

Cawl
2 Enginseers
15 Rangers
4 Kastelans
4 Dragoons
2 Neutron Crawlers

1466 points right there.

gendoikari87 wrote:

Suzuteo wrote:
For the record, AdMech is not a bad army. In fact, most armies are much better off today than in 7E (aside from Eldar). The problem is that there are a lot of broken things in Guard; Scions seem okay now, but Conscripts, Elysians, and their artillery are still nightmares.

if they'd take the whole does not need line of site out the artillery wouldn't be as broken. but it would also really be uncouth and unfluffy Maybe "does not need line of sight but if you fire at a unit this model cannot see subtract 1 from the hit roll" would have been a good compromise.

Artillery normally requires a spotter. I'd accept firing without LOS if another unit or model had to give up it's shooting to spot for the artillery.

Octovol wrote:


Artillery normally requires a spotter. I'd accept firing without LOS if another unit or model had to give up it's shooting to spot for the artillery.

Yeah, that would work. Or maybe if the first artillery unit is -1 to hit when fired without LOS and shots from other artillery units into the same target lose that modifier since they've become "honed in"

I’m so bored of Cawl with Dakka Robots. These games are absolutely no fun for me, or my opponent.
I looked into my Collection and will try with a different list. Just to play something else.

Battalion Detachment - Stygies VIII
Tech-Priest Dominus
Tech-Priest Enginseer
5x Skitarii Rangers /w 2x Transuranic Arquebus
5x Skitarii Rangers /w 2x Transuranic Arquebus
10x Skitarii Rangers
5x Skitarii Rangers
6x Sydonian Dragoon
Onager Dunecrawler /w Icarus Array

Spearhead Detachment - Stygies VIII
Tech-Priest Dominus
Onager Dunecrawler /w Neutron laser
Onager Dunecrawler /w Neutron laser
Onager Dunecrawler /w Neutron laser
Onager Dunecrawler /w Neutron laser
Onager Dunecrawler /w Icarus Array
Onager Dunecrawler /w Icarus Array

 oOSkyOo wrote:
I’m so bored of Cawl with Dakka Robots. These games are absolutely no fun for me, or my opponent.
I looked into my Collection and will try with a different list. Just to play something else.

Battalion Detachment - Stygies VIII
Tech-Priest Dominus
Tech-Priest Enginseer
5x Skitarii Rangers /w 2x Transuranic Arquebus
5x Skitarii Rangers /w 2x Transuranic Arquebus
10x Skitarii Rangers
5x Skitarii Rangers
6x Sydonian Dragoon
Onager Dunecrawler /w Icarus Array

Spearhead Detachment - Stygies VIII
Tech-Priest Dominus
Onager Dunecrawler /w Neutron laser
Onager Dunecrawler /w Neutron laser
Onager Dunecrawler /w Neutron laser
Onager Dunecrawler /w Neutron laser
Onager Dunecrawler /w Icarus Array
Onager Dunecrawler /w Icarus Array

I see crabs, a loot of crabs. I would drop one neutron for more antihorde, infiltrators or something. Might me fun, maximum that i deployed was 4. Share how it worked out after everything.

Ya know if we hadn't lost the power first weapon for Onagers, they'd be just as good in combat as a Fistellan >.<

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Wait what? What do you use ruststalkers for? I use mine as infiltrators because I tell my opponent "no one trying to win would use ruststalkers in 8th, forget they even exist, haha".
Fulgurites are better in almost every way and they're STILL not good. So RustStalkers are just trash that costs 20 per model and should cost 10

They aren't as deadly as fulgurites but are quite a bit tougher. I use them with the Stygies stratagem to get them forward a bit. They aren't amazing, but the first two turns they are toughness 3 sv 3+ at 10 points a wound. Basically a really low investment fairly tough thing I can put in my opponent's face early on. They aren't dragoon level tough, but they are a bit scarier for infantry, so getting them up in the enemy's face can be worth it.

They aren't exceptional by any stretch, but I'd say they end up being better than fulgrites for me.

I thought a lot about the state of things and after a while of contemplation I decided to share it with you guys that our new Codex I'm kinda... happy about it.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that we are somehow better off than... certain factions, but I definitely got what I cared most about.
Our infantry though no more fearless little cog-heads is cheaper than ever with some nice guns (Arquebuses, Radium, Calivers). Neutron Onager got a tiny amount better with Heavy Stubber costing now only 5 points (hell, I'm rocking double stubbers on my Neutron Onagers now!) Dragoons from excellent screen became great screen with option to go full berserk with right Stratagem and are now AP-1, Ironstriders are hilarious now as they hit on 2+ when stationary or can shoot at full ballistic after moving. Kataphron Destroyers although overpriced are not terrible and can be part of something greater (Plasma spam or helping out Kastellans). Engineseer is now an HQ choice for which I prayed to Omnissiah day and night and we still have something to look forward to with Fires of Cyraxus (believe me, it's a real pain when you don't have anything to look forward to) which possibly solve our transport problems with some Triaros Conveyer (which I probably will convert out of Plagueburst Crawler after removing all nurgliness from it) and battle-automata we all love.

It may just be that sun is shining and my antidepressants kicked back stronger than usual but since our index wasn't terrible our codex may not be so bad when you look at it from the right perspective (you just have to squint a little bit )

SilverAlien wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Wait what? What do you use ruststalkers for? I use mine as infiltrators because I tell my opponent "no one trying to win would use ruststalkers in 8th, forget they even exist, haha".
Fulgurites are better in almost every way and they're STILL not good. So RustStalkers are just trash that costs 20 per model and should cost 10

They aren't as deadly as fulgurites but are quite a bit tougher. I use them with the Stygies stratagem to get them forward a bit. They aren't amazing, but the first two turns they are toughness 3 sv 3+ at 10 points a wound. Basically a really low investment fairly tough thing I can put in my opponent's face early on. They aren't dragoon level tough, but they are a bit scarier for infantry, so getting them up in the enemy's face can be worth it.

They aren't exceptional by any stretch, but I'd say they end up being better than fulgrites for me.

that makes sense but the infiltrators can kitearound other units with 5 shots at 12" or 3 at 18"

If you playing fun or bored but still wanna play some units a tpd with destroyers and 2 robots can work. Elimination volley and full plasma overcharge. Vanguard with plasma and go ahead. I might even consider fistelans so you can keep moving all the time . Flamers on destroyers for anti back field charges vang and Robots marching should be like rerolling one with 3+ balistic same as Cawl .

Ryza or agripinaa depending the fluff you like can produce either unkillable destroyers/breachers or str 9 3 wound plasm OMG.

Or you could Mars with grav onagers. A unit of 6 with destroyers with phosfor can give 42 shots for wrath.

Or you could stygies graia. stygies vehicles like onagers dragoons breachers priests and graia a mass army of troops with upgrades like arc spam. Playing the soldiers.
Rustalkers in units of 10 graia with omn mask on hq could be a force in melee.

Friendly games lots of options . I v tried a more relaxed detach in an apoca. Game with a bastion and 9 destroyers. Now you can set the bastion ( or was it fire redout not sure) in the mid and get 3*3 destroyers and Robots behind .all plasm ryza. Should kill anything. And the rest breachers stygia for deep strike and obj camping. Also nice for you not so used models paired with knights even. Etc. There are many nice things to try as said in fun games.

Even assault. Priests and rust. With inf. And dragoons also nice. Fast

And I will eventually try a heavy troop lists sure. Most likely with single dragoon units for running and tens of troops to follow. An all out brigade but with troops upgraded.

For competitive only

Wth myrmidon destructors from fw are basically the same price as kataphrons.... now I need to get some and proxy them as kataphrons.....

SilverAlien wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Wait what? What do you use ruststalkers for? I use mine as infiltrators because I tell my opponent "no one trying to win would use ruststalkers in 8th, forget they even exist, haha".
Fulgurites are better in almost every way and they're STILL not good. So RustStalkers are just trash that costs 20 per model and should cost 10

They aren't as deadly as fulgurites but are quite a bit tougher. I use them with the Stygies stratagem to get them forward a bit. They aren't amazing, but the first two turns they are toughness 3 sv 3+ at 10 points a wound. Basically a really low investment fairly tough thing I can put in my opponent's face early on. They aren't dragoon level tough, but they are a bit scarier for infantry, so getting them up in the enemy's face can be worth it.

They aren't exceptional by any stretch, but I'd say they end up being better than fulgrites for me.

"fairly tough"? Since when? They're one of the worst units we have durability wise.
They are tougher than:
Servitors, Infiltrators, Destroyers. That's it

T3 with a 4+ isn't the best but it does even out to basic marine survivability with 2 wounds. While not t6 6w that's still respectable not great not the best in the codex and Pails in comparison to guard in terms of point for point survives ility but still respectable

But the marine costs 12 not 20

 kinetoscopic wrote:


This is a pretty good summary of everything you've said in these threads to date, and it indirectly addresses a problem that's come up in previous threads: nothing is gained by shutting down conversation of other tactics or other options because "the best" tactic has already been agreed upon by the loudest posters.

I respect your tenacity in pushing for what you want to see as the competitive ad mech build, but now that most people can agree on the strongest Forge World, the most competitive units for the price, there needs to be space to talk about other ways to play the army.

One, because it's fun. Two, because the meta could change. Three, because this is a discussion board not a blog post and I come back here every day looking to find some tiny bit of insight of new idea to get me excited to go home and continue the hobby.

Point being, the tournament competitive build has been pretty well established, and there's room to keep talking about it. Just don't jump up and down when the topic moves to something else. #Fistellans4Life

This sums up my sentiments exactly. Well said.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
But the marine costs 12 not 20

true but the marine doesn't have a power weapon multiple attacks or a pistol 3/5 weapon. But that gets into a more i depth analysis and would be comparing apples to oranges


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also there's a lot of high durability in this codex. Kastelans are basically 2w away from being dreadnoughts. And damn cheap. Kataphrons we get as troops are almost attack bikes without the mobility. outside the sicarians and rangers/vanguard everything is at least t5 or higher multiple wounds and we can heal them easier than other codexes. It's a book filled with high durability. Maybe not for the points but that's because of the ridiculous guns we put on everything

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
But the marine costs 12 not 20

Marines cost 13 and are single wound, we are 20 with 2 wounds. Canticles can also get us a 3+ vs ranged fire on turn 1 and 2.

We are slightly less durable for cost than SoB infantry (who are more durable than SM), but far more dangerous.

Also they are tougher than both priest variants, when you consider the priests don't benefit from the cover canticle. Reasonably speaking, the only melee units tougher than them are dragoons and Kastalens, both of whom are kitted out for anti tank or meq, while rust stalkers have a more general anti infantry loadout.

I'm not saying they are a great unit, just that I found a rather niche role they did decently in.

Silver I think the problem is that to certain members, not the best = unplayable crap. It's a tournament mindset that says if x is 0.00001% better it should win more more is. Better more means more points means better chance of victory. It's not wrong per se....but it does not and can not account for different tactics that are new


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The only thing that will account for different tactics and give you a complete picture is playtesting. And those with a tournament mindset simply will not risk innovation because more often then not that means failure


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Take grey knight terminators for example. I actually got pms saying I was an idiot for using them and should remove myself from the discussion. Because I was that stupid. What that poster didn't account for was 1. I was using a single troop patrol in a 1000 point game (obviously 9 paladins and an hq would have negated being able to take much mechanicus)and 2. It actually worked. But no not as good as paladins = crap = stupid choice. Without ever considering that it's a small unit with 2+ saves power weapons and psychic nullification that was going up against deathguard and bikes. Not to mention how they were used when where ect. No not as good as paladins = unplayable crap = stupid

Needless to say having actually used them I dismissed this posters opinion out of hand because it worked for me and they were being rude disrespectful and better more constructive advice was to be found elsewhere.

I found the storm bolters were very useful and have switched to strike squads which are even better but played differently.

And yes paladins are better than terminators.... but they're not troops. That negates some things you can do with the base terminators

Finally ! Got not one but TWO games today ! At last ! 1850 pts both.

First game against Guard, 8 Leman Russes, 3 Armoured Sentinels, 1 Astropath and 1 Primaris Psyker. Suffice to say my TAC list made with EVERY MODEL I OWN didn't particularly stand up, and I messed up by forgetting two crucial things, but the worst was my sheer unluck: I failed a great number of hit rolls, wound rolls, but my Neutronager did absolutely nothing (and it was more or less my only hope in this fight) and the Icarus one wasn't very useful either against T8 models. On his second turn he pretty much killed all my anti-armour and after having only destroyed three of his vehicles I lost turn 4. Got to say I used my Ruststalkers in CC against a Leman Russ to finish it off and it worked well, I still love these, even if they're not really tough. Still going to buy more Scions, love the models, fluff and rules.

Second game against Death Guard, a fun list with a little bit of everything but none of the new units. Lots of Characters and Poxwalkers, Typhus. Most of the game was a melee mess in the center, and as we played Night Fight and I play Stygies he had difficulties shooting me. I hold on pretty well and won 7-4. Vanguards were invaluable to clear the Poxwalkers, I'm glad they're still effective because I love the models. Disappointed in the Icarus Array, in both games (which weren't exactly filled with Fliers) he pretty much did nothing, I'd rather have built it as a second Laser honestly. Datasmith took 6 wounds off a Defiler, killing it, so he deserves to stay in my lists forever (and it's unfluffy to not have any Datasmiths). My two Domini were really good too, and his aura + repair are important. 5 Fulgurites killed Typhus in one round, so they're nice.

The Monitor Malevolus trait is nice, it gained me like 4-5 CPs in two games. In the future I'll try Necromechanic but with other lists, don't have the models right now. Arkhan's Autocaduceus pretty effective as predicted.

All around I think I'll build my lists more around the fun stuff I like than really powerful combos. I'm thinking about Dragoons, I only own one but buying three more to fill a Brigade will cost too much for so few points, and they're painful to transport. I'll buy more Skitarii infantry and one more Onager, don't know yet about Kastelans, I'll see when FoC comes out someday. I do really need more anti-armour though.

Anyone thought about throwing in a Tallarn detachment of some kind?

With mobility (outside of dragoons) being an issue, their ability to show up on any board edge with 3 units (plus two more with relic) seems like it could be useful.

 Marius Xerxes wrote:
Anyone thought about throwing in a Tallarn detachment of some kind?

With mobility (outside of dragoons) being an issue, their ability to show up on any board edge with 3 units (plus two more with relic) seems like it could be useful.

My Guard opponent from today had a Tallarn Detachment with a Tank Commander and two more Russes, he made them appear right in my face and it worked fine.

gendoikari87 wrote:
Silver I think the problem is that to certain members, not the best = unplayable crap. It's a tournament mindset that says if x is 0.00001% better it should win more more is. Better more means more points means better chance of victory. It's not wrong per se....but it does not and can not account for different tactics that are new


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The only thing that will account for different tactics and give you a complete picture is playtesting. And those with a tournament mindset simply will not risk innovation because more often then not that means failure


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Take grey knight terminators for example. I actually got pms saying I was an idiot for using them and should remove myself from the discussion. Because I was that stupid. What that poster didn't account for was 1. I was using a single troop patrol in a 1000 point game (obviously 9 paladins and an hq would have negated being able to take much mechanicus)and 2. It actually worked. But no not as good as paladins = crap = stupid choice. Without ever considering that it's a small unit with 2+ saves power weapons and psychic nullification that was going up against deathguard and bikes. Not to mention how they were used when where ect. No not as good as paladins = unplayable crap = stupid

Needless to say having actually used them I dismissed this posters opinion out of hand because it worked for me and they were being rude disrespectful and better more constructive advice was to be found elsewhere.

I found the storm bolters were very useful and have switched to strike squads which are even better but played differently.

And yes paladins are better than terminators.... but they're not troops. That negates some things you can do with the base terminators

This attitude is bad. Don't join forums if you don't want to respect other opinions .tournament or not we all play hobby game and we all got communities friendly games etc. The fact many spend time to analyze so you get feedback should be respected. Not critisized. We are not here to chit chat in tacticsmjust because you or any other find it amusing to waste time blaming. If you don't like reading go make your own fluff threat and let's see who reads it. It's the last you gonna keep that tone in here. Go elsewhere to pew pew. Here we have talked about all adeptus aspects and LL contribute. But mainly we all try to explain. The bet possible not the worse . If you want the worse go play it solo. Do you understand the lot of you with the continues blames?
"Those with the tour mindset wont risk innovation?" Nice to know pure competition but be discouraged ....

Forums are for all and none is here to judge what others like to say or play. Whoever does not like it can go make his own threat.

Yoda79 wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:
Silver I think the problem is that to certain members, not the best = unplayable crap. It's a tournament mindset that says if x is 0.00001% better it should win more more is. Better more means more points means better chance of victory. It's not wrong per se....but it does not and can not account for different tactics that are new


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The only thing that will account for different tactics and give you a complete picture is playtesting. And those with a tournament mindset simply will not risk innovation because more often then not that means failure


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Take grey knight terminators for example. I actually got pms saying I was an idiot for using them and should remove myself from the discussion. Because I was that stupid. What that poster didn't account for was 1. I was using a single troop patrol in a 1000 point game (obviously 9 paladins and an hq would have negated being able to take much mechanicus)and 2. It actually worked. But no not as good as paladins = crap = stupid choice. Without ever considering that it's a small unit with 2+ saves power weapons and psychic nullification that was going up against deathguard and bikes. Not to mention how they were used when where ect. No not as good as paladins = unplayable crap = stupid

Needless to say having actually used them I dismissed this posters opinion out of hand because it worked for me and they were being rude disrespectful and better more constructive advice was to be found elsewhere.

I found the storm bolters were very useful and have switched to strike squads which are even better but played differently.

And yes paladins are better than terminators.... but they're not troops. That negates some things you can do with the base terminators

This attitude is bad. Don't join forums if you don't want to respect other opinions .tournament or not we all play hobby game and we all got communities friendly games etc. The fact many spend time to analyze so you get feedback should be respected. Not critisized. We are not here to chit chat in tacticsmjust because you or any other find it amusing to waste time blaming. If you don't like reading go make your own fluff threat and let's see who reads it. It's the last you gonna keep that tone in here. Go elsewhere to pew pew. Here we have talked about all adeptus aspects and LL contribute. But mainly we all try to explain. The bet possible not the worse . If you want the worse go play it solo. Do you understand the lot of you with the continues blames?
"Those with the tour mindset wont risk innovation?" Nice to know pure competition but be discouraged ....

Forums are for all and none is here to judge what others like to say or play. Whoever does not like it can go make his own threat.

for most people it is important to respect their opinions, not trolls. Don't feed the trolls


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Aaranis wrote:

 Marius Xerxes wrote:
Anyone thought about throwing in a Tallarn detachment of some kind?

With mobility (outside of dragoons) being an issue, their ability to show up on any board edge with 3 units (plus two more with relic) seems like it could be useful.

My Guard opponent from today had a Tallarn Detachment with a Tank Commander and two more Russes, he made them appear right in my face and it worked fine.

did you just... what? outflanking russes? I Should really have paid closer attention to the guard dex because that combined with conscripts which as far as I can tell we're only lightly needed, is insane.

Can they outflank the superheavies too?

gendoikari87 wrote:
did you just... what? outflanking russes? I Should really have paid closer attention to the guard dex because that combined with conscripts which as far as I can tell we're only lightly needed, is insane.

Can they outflank the superheavies too?

Technically, yes they can. But Reece at FLG says he thinks with 99% certainty that it was an oversight and will get changed (on the Super Heavy front)

But yes, they have a 3 CP stratagem that lets them reserve 3 units and bring them on within 7" of any board edge with the usual 9" away from enemy models. Guard also has a relic that lets the bearer and one infantry squad do the same as well. So including the character, you could pop out 5 units somewhere.

For Ad-Mech having mobility issues, Tallarn seems like a natural fit to assist with that.

That's nice. "Hey my tank squadron is going to go overs here and take one of your backfield objectives. Have fun trying to shoot everything off the board ... at t8" talk about digging in. Can you even call that kiting?

I'm not too worried about Ambush. It's actually really easy to lock them out of your half of the deployment zone given the 7" from edge requirement; you don't even need to block the entire area, just enough so that a tank can't fit. I mean, these guys can shoot you from practically anywhere anyway.