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 DarknessEternal wrote:

pismakron wrote:

4) Bezerkers can consolidate three inches and then pile in three more inches. You need at least six+ inches of empty space between your screen and your backfield.

Pile In moves are only taken by units that can fight. Units not within 1" of the enemy can't fight. A standard base is just under an inch across. Unless they teleported past your screening unit, they won't be eligible to fight if your other units are ~3.5 inches away from the screening unit.

"Any unit that charged or has models within 1" of an enemy unit can be chosen to fight in the Fight phase."

If they charged, they get to pile in.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

pismakron wrote:

4) Bezerkers can consolidate three inches and then pile in three more inches. You need at least six+ inches of empty space between your screen and your backfield.

Pile In moves are only taken by units that can fight. Units not within 1" of the enemy can't fight. A standard base is just under an inch across. Unless they teleported past your screening unit, they won't be eligible to fight if your other units are ~3.5 inches away from the screening unit.

If you charged in the charge phase then you get to pile in and consolidate in the fight phase. Even if the charged unit has already been destroyed by prior combat.

In the above example the Bezerkers will move, shoot and then charge the screen, moving their bases as close to the back field as possible. Then the first pile-in + fight happens, and this will often be enough to delete the screen completely, especially if we are talking about multiple units of Bezerkers (or Boyz or Genestealers for that matter). In the consolidate phase the Bezerkers move 3" towards the closest enemy model. In the next fight phase (zerkers get two) the attackers will pile in another 3" towards the enemy, , and if you declared a charge against whatever you stumbled into, you get to fight it. Screening against this in a 12" deep deployment zone is very difficult, and almost impossible if you bring vehicles. Vehicles that are engaged in their own deployment zone will often not be able to fall back either.

pismakron wrote:

Then the first pile-in + fight happens, and this will often be enough to delete the screen completely, especially if we are talking about multiple units of Bezerkers (or Boyz or Genestealers for that matter). In the consolidate phase the Bezerkers move 3" towards the closest enemy model. In the next fight phase (zerkers get two)...

If I'm not very mistaken, when choosing a unit to fight you can only pick units that are within 1" of an enemy unit. Therefore, if the berserkers wipe out their first target and can't get within 1" of another unit with the consolidation move, you can't pick the berserkers to fight again.

Ushtarador wrote:

pismakron wrote:

Then the first pile-in + fight happens, and this will often be enough to delete the screen completely, especially if we are talking about multiple units of Bezerkers (or Boyz or Genestealers for that matter). In the consolidate phase the Bezerkers move 3" towards the closest enemy model. In the next fight phase (zerkers get two)...

If I'm not very mistaken, when choosing a unit to fight you can only pick units that are within 1" of an enemy unit. Therefore, if the berserkers wipe out their first target and can't get within 1" of another unit with the consolidation move, you can't pick the berserkers to fight again.

It is pick a unit that is within 1'' of an enemy unit or that has charged that turn. So, chargers get some help in case the unit they charged does some funky wound allocation business.

That said, it would be easier to buffer against this sort of tactic if the Reinforcements rule that disallowed movement to mid turn deployers worked for these before turn deployers....

 DarknessEternal wrote:

pismakron wrote:

4) Bezerkers can consolidate three inches and then pile in three more inches. You need at least six+ inches of empty space between your screen and your backfield.

Pile In moves are only taken by units that can fight. Units not within 1" of the enemy can't fight. A standard base is just under an inch across. Unless they teleported past your screening unit, they won't be eligible to fight if your other units are ~3.5 inches away from the screening unit.

Not actually so. You can pile in if you can fight, or if you charged.

Goobi2 wrote:

That said, it would be easier to buffer against this sort of tactic if the Reinforcements rule that disallowed movement to mid turn deployers worked for these before turn deployers....

The thing is, if the infiltrating units arrived "as having moved" the stratagem would go from "gamebreakingly OP" to "only barely useful". Another way of nerfing the infiltrate stratagems would be to limit
them to one unit only.

Otherwise I look forward to Orks getting an infiltrate stratagem, so I can deploy a hundred of my Boyz in my opponents deployment zone, whenever I get first turn.

 Galef wrote:
Some of us don't play an army with suitably expendable units, nor do we want to.

Every army has suitable units to effectively weaken first-turn-shenigans applied with strike from the shadows / forward operatives!
You not wanting to field those units is hardly the games/rules fault...

 Galef wrote:
I think Martel's point (and correct me if wrong) is that Scouts will only work in the first turn before they die. Since you can choose what turn deepstrikers come it, you can hold them unit turn 2 and wipe out the Scouts on turn 1.

And guess what: "only work in the first turn" is all you need to counter strike from the shadows / forward operatives because, you know, these stratagems only work on the first turn themselvesl!

They might not last to block "classical" deep strikers on later turns but those -by your own words- are no issue on their own because

 Galef wrote:
I don't have an issue with units being able to drop in 9" on the first turn and charge. It still comes down to a 2d6 roll.

So what is exactly your point?

highwind01 wrote:

Every army has suitable units to effectively weaken first-turn-shenigans applied with strike from the shadows / forward operatives!

No they don't. In fact I think no army has suitable units to screen against those broken stratagems.

How do you propose to screen against 40 Bezerkers or raptors that can move, shoot and advance on their first turn, if you roll Dawn of War deployment?

The berzerkerz get to pile in if they charged, but charging units can only make attacks against units they declared a charge against that turn.

This stops berzerkerz from butchering one unit, consolidating and piling Into another and attacking it if it was not declared as a target of the charge during the charge phase- if they charged that turn.

Also the list looks skeptical in terms of being battleforged with two troops and 3 elites and a heavy support. Fairly certain that not possible would take a patrol Detachment and 2 aux detachments to fit all of that and don't think you get 3 detachments at 1250 pts unless you agreed to that.

blaktoof wrote:
The berzerkerz get to pile in if they charged, but charging units can only make attacks against units they declared a charge against that turn.

This stops berzerkerz from butchering one unit, consolidating and piling Into another and attacking it if it was not declared as a target of the charge during the charge phase- if they charged that turn.

Also the list looks skeptical in terms of being battleforged with two troops and 3 elites and a heavy support. Fairly certain that not possible would take a patrol Detachment and 2 aux detachments to fit all of that and don't think you get 3 detachments at 1250 pts unless you agreed to that.

But if they're sensible they'll declare charges against everything they might be able to consolidate into unless they've got particularly good overwatch.

 Scott-S6 wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
The berzerkerz get to pile in if they charged, but charging units can only make attacks against units they declared a charge against that turn.

This stops berzerkerz from butchering one unit, consolidating and piling Into another and attacking it if it was not declared as a target of the charge during the charge phase- if they charged that turn.

Also the list looks skeptical in terms of being battleforged with two troops and 3 elites and a heavy support. Fairly certain that not possible would take a patrol Detachment and 2 aux detachments to fit all of that and don't think you get 3 detachments at 1250 pts unless you agreed to that.

But if they're sensible they'll declare charges against everything they might be able to consolidate into unless they've got particularly good overwatch.

You can’t declare charges at anything further than 12 inches away.

 argonak wrote:

 Scott-S6 wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
The berzerkerz get to pile in if they charged, but charging units can only make attacks against units they declared a charge against that turn.

This stops berzerkerz from butchering one unit, consolidating and piling Into another and attacking it if it was not declared as a target of the charge during the charge phase- if they charged that turn.

Also the list looks skeptical in terms of being battleforged with two troops and 3 elites and a heavy support. Fairly certain that not possible would take a patrol Detachment and 2 aux detachments to fit all of that and don't think you get 3 detachments at 1250 pts unless you agreed to that.

But if they're sensible they'll declare charges against everything they might be able to consolidate into unless they've got particularly good overwatch.

You can’t declare charges at anything further than 12 inches away.

So? You infiltrate nine inches away from his screen, move six inches towards it, shoot, and then declare charges against anything within 12 inches. And then you just have to pray for a charge roll of 3 or more. It can be done.

You can also infiltrate with jump-infantry, move over his screen, and then start the charge from behind his screen.

pismakron wrote:

highwind01 wrote:

Every army has suitable units to effectively weaken first-turn-shenigans applied with strike from the shadows / forward operatives!

No they don't. In fact I think no army has suitable units to screen against those broken stratagems.

How do you propose to screen against 40 Bezerkers or raptors that can move, shoot and advance on their first turn, if you roll Dawn of War deployment?

For starters, every army with cheap chaff units can easily put up a roadblock, that list is so dependant on getting to charge T1 on your important stuff, that if it can't, it falls flat.
So, if you have anyhting 8PPM or lower, you can put a roadblock at the very least. some armies can put roadblocks better than others.
Daemons are kings of it, but AM, orks, renegades and DG all got really good chaff units, yannari can do "kill my chaff if you dare" shenanigans, and even tau can pull off a decent roadblock (because gun drones)

Second, anyone that can have a decent airforce-zerkers CANT TOUCH FLYERS. said fliers can block roads with thier bases (as unfluffy as it gets, but it works ingame.)

Third, if you are stronger then they are in CC and just slow-you can probably outdo them, by virtue of not paying for speed. termies for example can take a zerker assault to the face without getting killed too easy, and then punch back hard.

You say no army has a suitable screen, I say no army DOESN'T have an answer. said answer may not be your "go to" units, but its there if you want it.

In 5th edition you could have things in reserved, even all your models. They came onto the table from your table half, the long end. But they could not pass within 2" of an oponent.

Now in 5th before the first turn things with infiltrate, like kroot mercanaries can infiltrate. I think this picture illustraits the need to deploy with care. The white scars player is the one looking up rules with the judge in the background.

http://i50.tinypic.com/2re4m4m.jpg

In your situation deploy with care. If you see what your opponent is doing, alpha legion berserkers, put up some chaff that keeps him from deploying 9" from your important stuff.

 Niiai wrote:
In 5th edition you could have things in reserved, even all your models. They came onto the table from your table half, the long end. But they could not pass within 2" of an oponent.

Now in 5th before the first turn things with infiltrate, like kroot mercanaries can infiltrate. I think this picture illustraits the need to deploy with care. The white scars player is the one looking up rules with the judge in the background.

http://i50.tinypic.com/2re4m4m.jpg

In your situation deploy with care. If you see what your opponent is doing, alpha legion berserkers, put up some chaff that keeps him from deploying 9" from your important stuff.

I remember this tourney, dude was sooooo salty. The kroot player was brilliant though, measured exactly perfect spacing to prevent him entering the game lol.

Wonderwolf wrote:
Interesting. I was also under the impression you could use the infiltrate-stratagem only once.

Inversely, if you can use stratagems multiple times before the actual game ("outside a phase"), couldn't counter it by re-rolling the seize initiative roll for as long as you have command points?

No, because you cant reroll a reroll.

*edit* whoops, thought that was on this page, not page one

Grey Knights do not have chaff units. It would mean having to go Imperial Soup to do so and considering all the bad feelings expressed in this forum about soup armies...

A first turn tabling shouldn't really be possible; thats just bad design.

I understand the "get gud" mentality, but 8th seems extremely imbalanced. Even watching various battle reports often the game ends by turn 3 with one player being basically tabled or conceding; seems like they took the base game of warhammer and just imbalanced it further.

Kinda wish they'd take a step back to older editions and take what worked and ditch what didn't.

I like the idea of the first turn table to be honest. I've had games where I've shown up, looked at the opponent's army list, and then said "Yeah, you win. No, seriously, this one is yours. Here's my list. You up for another one with different lists?"

I don't see the shame in conceding to an opponent that's obviously going to win.

 daedalus wrote:
I like the idea of the first turn table to be honest. I've had games where I've shown up, looked at the opponent's army list, and then said "Yeah, you win. No, seriously, this one is yours. Here's my list. You up for another one with different lists?"

I don't see the shame in conceding to an opponent that's obviously going to win.

That takes the fun out of it though, your list shouldn't decide the outcome; you should be able to play whatever and at least have a chance. Don't get me wrong, 5th had its issues (Grey Knights being overtuned for example), but nearly all my games lasted to turn 5-7, and even people who were almost tabled could win off objectives. Hell, I saw people playing 4th edition Tau win against the newest armies at the end of 5th; the game wasn't perfect, but it was fun, and the games were intense.

8th seems like objectives are secondary to destroying everything because everything is so strong. Also, I don't understand why they changed the AP system (the old one was extremely easy to understand), deep strike rules, etc.

I get they were trying to take more luck out of the game from bad scatters, etc. but a lot of those things made the game more cinematic and fun. Now its "I got first turn, PEWPEWKILLZHALFYERARMYPEW!" I'm not saying 8th doesn't have its good parts, but it does feel like a giant leap backward for the sake of trying to simplify a game thats always been complex. Its like taking the game Dark Souls and taking all the difficulty outta it.

Well, I've said on surely too many time that I've felt like 5th got it most right out of any edition I've played, but the biggest thing going against 6th and 7th was that everything was candyland. Too much was random back then, and there were too many things to have to remember rules for. It was cumbersome, but unfortunately, they knee-jerked rather than pulling away carefully. Maybe 9th will be perfect. Who knows.

And yes, in 5th, objectives mattered more. The uncomfortable corollary to that is that more games ended in an epic (not really) tie. Hooray!

And, honestly, to respond to what you actually said: I have played this game for many years. I've curb stomped people pretty hard. I've had even harder curb stompings on myself than I think I've ever dealt out. I've also had some amazingly narrow games. Of all of those outcomes, I'd really rather the last one. Hence, I have no problem telling someone that they win, and asking if we can work out lists again, and I've had no problem offering to let someone rethink their list after we've exchanged if I think it's going to be a crushing victory for me.

 daedalus wrote:
Well, I've said on surely too many time that I've felt like 5th got it most right out of any edition I've played, but the biggest thing going against 6th and 7th was that everything was candyland. Too much was random back then, and there were too many things to have to remember rules for. It was cumbersome, but unfortunately, they knee-jerked rather than pulling away carefully. Maybe 9th will be perfect. Who knows.

And yes, in 5th, objectives mattered more. The uncomfortable corollary to that is that more games ended in an epic (not really) tie. Hooray!

And, honestly, to respond to what you actually said: I have played this game for many years. I've curb stomped people pretty hard. I've had even harder curb stompings on myself than I think I've ever dealt out. I've also had some amazingly narrow games. Of all of those outcomes, I'd really rather the last one. Hence, I have no problem telling someone that they win, and asking if we can work out lists again, and I've had no problem offering to let someone rethink their list after we've exchanged if I think it's going to be a crushing victory for me.

Good attitude I suppose, and I can see we have similar views. yes, ties were pretty standard in 5th, at least two games a round during tourneys would end in ties lol. Hopefully they can iron out the wrinkles; I still love the models, and the lore and everything are better than pretty much every wargame i've tried since.

 Zid wrote:
you should be able to play whatever and at least have a chance.

No, you really shouldn't.

War isn't equal opportunity. If your army composition is plain bad, you should lose.
If you know what you are facing and still fail to bring an appropriate response, you should lose.

I can't run an army entirely of kroot and vespids "because I want to". it wont work, it CANT work, because it lacks so many essentials.
I can't pull off a list of just more and more rhinos and bolter boys.
An assault-only list with no transports/special deployment and just foot slugging also isn't realistic.
An army list has some essential things it must have, otherwise it falls flat even in casual setting.

And having a way to respond to fast point-blank elites attacking you IS essential, because its a thing that exist and is highly effective-and therefor popular.
If you fail to plan to the most commonly used tactics, than you have no business winning a match against someone who prepared such tactics.
Especially when these tactics only really work because people fail to plan for them, as they are SO easy to counter.

Every army has hard counters to it, and even if your list fails to bring a counter-some careful planning and correct positioning can and WILL put a spanner into the plan and give you are the very LEAST a fair fighting chance.

Here's a basic hint, if you know your opponent is planning to infiltrate zerkers (and tis rather obvious when he does), deploy your important dudes exactly 9" from the corner to completely nullfy two directions of attack, and put your least important stuff up to 18" away in each direction to create a "no infiltrate bubble" and by that you got no more than 2-3 units in total that are within threat range of his cheese. if he does it anyway, your edge units took a beating, but now his zerkers are out in the open to be mulched by the rest of your forces-if he didn't, he just sank half his army into zerkers who didnt do their trick.
Either way, you prevented the worst case scenario, and are now dealing with foot slugging zerkers. nasty if they hit you, but not particularly fast or durable.

Honestly, if you fail to plan-you plan to fail.

 BoomWolf wrote:

 Zid wrote:
you should be able to play whatever and at least have a chance.

No, you really shouldn't.

War isn't equal opportunity. If your army composition is plain bad, you should lose.
If you know what you are facing and still fail to bring an appropriate response, you should lose.

I can't run an army entirely of kroot and vespids "because I want to". it wont work, it CANT work, because it lacks so many essentials.
I can't pull off a list of just more and more rhinos and bolter boys.
An assault-only list with no transports/special deployment and just foot slugging also isn't realistic.
An army list has some essential things it must have, otherwise it falls flat even in casual setting.

And having a way to respond to fast point-blank elites attacking you IS essential, because its a thing that exist and is highly effective-and therefor popular.
If you fail to plan to the most commonly used tactics, than you have no business winning a match against someone who prepared such tactics.
Especially when these tactics only really work because people fail to plan for them, as they are SO easy to counter.

Every army has hard counters to it, and even if your list fails to bring a counter-some careful planning and correct positioning can and WILL put a spanner into the plan and give you are the very LEAST a fair fighting chance.

Here's a basic hint, if you know your opponent is planning to infiltrate zerkers (and tis rather obvious when he does), deploy your important dudes exactly 9" from the corner to completely nullfy two directions of attack, and put your least important stuff up to 18" away in each direction to create a "no infiltrate bubble" and by that you got no more than 2-3 units in total that are within threat range of his cheese. if he does it anyway, your edge units took a beating, but now his zerkers are out in the open to be mulched by the rest of your forces-if he didn't, he just sank half his army into zerkers who didnt do their trick.
Either way, you prevented the worst case scenario, and are now dealing with foot slugging zerkers. nasty if they hit you, but not particularly fast or durable.

Honestly, if you fail to plan-you plan to fail.

Theres the "get gud" mentality. Look, I know what war is, I know its not fair, etc. etc. (I'm actually active duty military)

However, my point stands that tactics aren't as important as killing power in 8th, plain and simple. Read over any of the various batter reports, even from top players like Reece, and the game is boiled down to who killed what faster. Many people attack this game like its a business; efficiency trumps all.

Yeah, some armies have hard counters to it, much like many other competitive games (magic, warmachine, etc.) and you cannot possibly plan for everything ever.

However, it is a game, and point for point, some armies completely win without you even having a chance. Sweet, thats realistic, but seriously, this is a game. Why would someone spend $500 on an army just to get tabled turn one? My point was that this basically never happened during 5th or even the bit of 6th I played; even if your army was built properly and you played a newb, he'd at least get 3 turns and learn something. Objectives and strategic placement mattered much more as well.

I'll never argue that a bad list or bad plays can win or lose you the game. You should plan for vehicles, fliers, infantry, etc. But tabling shouldn't be your primary means to win a game about "war", because objectives are what war is all about.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
Grey Knights do not have chaff units. It would mean having to go Imperial Soup to do so and considering all the bad feelings expressed in this forum about soup armies...

Better to have some random shmucks on the internet raise their noses at you for bringing an 'Astra Militarum' army (when you have a majority of points in GK and a GK warlord) than to eat 20-30 overcharged plasma shots turn 1 because you didn't have screening.

Just remember, your GK murder all the guardsmen post battle anyway, so it's still a GK victory

 BoomWolf wrote:



For starters, every army with cheap chaff units can easily put up a roadblock, that list is so dependant on getting to charge T1 on your important stuff, that if it can't, it falls flat.
So, if you have anyhting 8PPM or lower, you can put a roadblock at the very least. some armies can put roadblocks better than others.
Daemons are kings of it, but AM, orks, renegades and DG all got really good chaff units, yannari can do "kill my chaff if you dare" shenanigans, and even tau can pull off a decent roadblock (because gun drones)

That is simply not true. 40 khorne Bezerkers will kill 50 boyz on the charge, consolidate 3", pile in 3", and then gets to fight again, killing 50 more boyz or whatever they were screening. And what if he had brought 50 raptors that can simply fly across the chaff? Or a combination? In some deployments you only have a 12" deep deployment zone, so how will you screen against it?

I say that it can't be done, and that these stratagems are broken win-buttons that needs to be nerfed.

 argonak wrote:

 Scott-S6 wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
The berzerkerz get to pile in if they charged, but charging units can only make attacks against units they declared a charge against that turn.

This stops berzerkerz from butchering one unit, consolidating and piling Into another and attacking it if it was not declared as a target of the charge during the charge phase- if they charged that turn.

Also the list looks skeptical in terms of being battleforged with two troops and 3 elites and a heavy support. Fairly certain that not possible would take a patrol Detachment and 2 aux detachments to fit all of that and don't think you get 3 detachments at 1250 pts unless you agreed to that.

But if they're sensible they'll declare charges against everything they might be able to consolidate into unless they've got particularly good overwatch.

You can’t declare charges at anything further than 12 inches away.

When you're 3" away from your primary target declaring a charge against everything you might want to consolidate into is no problem.

That is simply not true. 40 khorne Bezerkers will kill 50 boyz on the charge, consolidate 3", pile in 3", and then gets to fight again, killing 50 more boyz or whatever they were screening. And what if he had brought 50 raptors that can simply fly across the chaff? Or a combination? In some deployments you only have a 12" deep deployment zone, so how will you screen against it?

I say that it can't be done, and that these stratagems are broken win-buttons that needs to be nerfed.

Okay, so they kill that first 30 boy screen and consolidate into the next one. Then you spend 2 cp and kill 30 or so of their berserkers with the next 30 boy squad.

Or, you just take 2 squads of grots and bubble wrap your whole army in them for what, 200 points? If they're stupid enough to pile into the boys again, all you have to do is counterattack them.

If he brought 50 raptors then bubble wrap your important stuff in 2 layers of grots.

Seriously the amount of whining I'm this thread is unbelievable. Turn 1 charges are a thing this edition. Learn to play against them or prepare to lose. A lot.

It's Screenhammer 40K. That's why marines are inferior to Chaos marines atm.

LOL @ "Screenhammer 40k"

The internet for a million years:
"I want infantry to be relevant again! Too many big things! Too much eliteism! Too much deathstars!"

Later that century...

"OMG There's too much infantry! Every army has to bring cheap bodies now! How are we supposed to play the game? These cheap bodies are too good how do I deathstar?"