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Well, I would assume so. I mean, even that many millennia of breeding would end up with the "vanilla" human gene-type being substantially different from our modern one. Then add god-knows what during the Golden Age of tech.......

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Supertony51 wrote:
Mine is that the collector Necron (im too lazy to look up his name) Has either the 2nd or 11th primarch in stasis.

Fabius Bile- Clonelord spoilers inbound.

Spoiler:

He doesn't (maybe).

By the end of the novel Trazyn takes a cloned version of pre-daemon Fulgrim away with him (he originally wanted Bile). Trazyn only agrees to this as "(he) came close to adding a Primarch in his collection centuries ago" and takes Fulgrim away kicking and screaming.

I say "maybe" because interestingly earlier in the novel two characters mention that (real) Fulgrim claims "One of the two forgotten ones was said to have lead an expedition to it's black heart, in the early centuries of the Great Crusade". The "It" in question referring to a large Necron space obelisk that is smack bang near Solemnace, the site of Trazyn's museum.

So he is absolutely confirmed to have Fulgrim and he may have one more that he has forgotten about.

Amazing that Trazyn gets so much done for himself.

One of my many ideas:
Going from homo sapiens to a Space Marine is far from just: "Yeah, upgrade!". That's not grimdark at all and not very realistic. Take the coolest version of power armour, ie. The coolest dimensions/scale of legs, arms and torso. Insert arms, legs and torso of the fully developed space marine, these parts will likely not connect properly like a normal human. Now insert bionic parts which will connect torso with arms and legs. This way a space marine will be an abomination without armour and represent the sacrifice he chose of his handsome muscular warrior frame he had before, which he gladly made, so he could serve the Emperor.

This will also highlight the significance of Mars and the deal, the Emperor made back in the days: the power armour was of such a brilliant design, that the Emperor formed his warriors to suit the armour and not the other way around.

The Dark Angels were turned to Chaos' Malal; Cypher is actually Lynn Al'Gonson; the =Inquisition= knows it, but has to let it slide because otherwise, they admit that the DA turned to a 5th Chaos God.

I imagine, that at least extra parts are necessary for the shoulder to connect to the torso, and that bulky machinery is inserted giving him grotesque wide shoulders but enabling a space marine to move is arms properly.

I just really don't like the Captain America-sort of enhancing of the body in this grimdark universe.

That normal life on Imperial Worlds can range from slave labor to modern day life. I imagine that there is a world out there very similar to the 21st century 1st World Country with all that that entails. Religion wise there is the Imperial Cult but it’s not as regimentally enforced with most of the populous falling into an agnostic type or Easter/Christmas type populous.

While the Ecclisiarchy is powerful on certain worlds I imagine that these worlds are stable enough not to warrant drastic action. Especially if they meet their tithe no one actually bothers them.

Since it will likely never be answered nor really matter to the story I like to think about what the Emperor bargained to gain the power to make the primarchs. Since the demons in the HH novels always refer to the Emperor as the betrayer I think he bargained two things.

First, was his foresight. Beyond explaining almost every plot hole of the primarchs turning without the Emperor knowing, it makes sense he would have to give up something personal.

Second, is that I think he promised humanity itself to chaos. I don't think he ever intended to keep said promise but only something as grand as the whole of humanity is a prize strong enough to wrest something to make his demi-god sons. Further, it explains why chaos always seems to refer to humans as belonging to them.

 buddha wrote:
Since it will likely never be answered nor really matter to the story I like to think about what the Emperor bargained to gain the power to make the primarchs. Since the demons in the HH novels always refer to the Emperor as the betrayer I think he bargained two things.

First, was his foresight. Beyond explaining almost every plot hole of the primarchs turning without the Emperor knowing, it makes sense he would have to give up something personal.

Second, is that I think he promised humanity itself to chaos. I don't think he ever intended to keep said promise but only something as grand as the whole of humanity is a prize strong enough to wrest something to make his demi-god sons. Further, it explains why chaos always seems to refer to humans as belonging to them.

Makes a lot of sense that

DontEatRawHagis wrote:
That normal life on Imperial Worlds can range from slave labor to modern day life. I imagine that there is a world out there very similar to the 21st century 1st World Country with all that that entails. Religion wise there is the Imperial Cult but it’s not as regimentally enforced with most of the populous falling into an agnostic type or Easter/Christmas type populous.

While the Ecclisiarchy is powerful on certain worlds I imagine that these worlds are stable enough not to warrant drastic action. Especially if they meet their tithe no one actually bothers them.

Assuming a world is actually in touch with the Imperium and not cut off, I cannot see a world having a 21st century modern day lifestyle for very long for the following reasons:

The comforts of modern day life rest on a consumerist society. We don't see this in any existing 40K societies. At best there might be a tiny layer of luxury at the top and the slightly larger layer of servants and artisans that serve them, but there is no widespread class of middle class consumers. Nearly all the industry we see in the Imperium is heavy industry, geared towards the production of capital goods not consumer goods. If such a society were to come about, and the Administratum heard of it, they would likely raise tithes and tax the prosperity away. Why? Well, when the rest of the galaxy is in such dire straits, how can the Imperium afford to let one world live in relative luxury without contributing more to the Imperium? Clearly if they have the resources to support a consumerist society, they can afford to tithe more.

The few paradise or resort worlds that exist in the Imperium are for the enjoyment and recuperation of the powerful such as nobility, highly placed Administratum officials, Ecclesiarchy members, Inquisitors. Even then, they appear to be more places of relative untouched natural beauty rather than modern built up consumer societies, and the populations exist as a servant class. Think a planet of resort hotel staff, themselves living in picturesque naturalistic poverty when not serving their masters.

So even if the Imperium were to encounter or somehow spontaneously develop a comfortable 21st century equivalent society on a world, it would either be taxed out of existence, or maybe converted to a resort planet for the benefit of Imperial peers.

Iracundus wrote:

DontEatRawHagis wrote:
That normal life on Imperial Worlds can range from slave labor to modern day life. I imagine that there is a world out there very similar to the 21st century 1st World Country with all that that entails. Religion wise there is the Imperial Cult but it’s not as regimentally enforced with most of the populous falling into an agnostic type or Easter/Christmas type populous.

While the Ecclisiarchy is powerful on certain worlds I imagine that these worlds are stable enough not to warrant drastic action. Especially if they meet their tithe no one actually bothers them.

Assuming a world is actually in touch with the Imperium and not cut off, I cannot see a world having a 21st century modern day lifestyle for very long for the following reasons:

The comforts of modern day life rest on a consumerist society. We don't see this in any existing 40K societies. At best there might be a tiny layer of luxury at the top and the slightly larger layer of servants and artisans that serve them, but there is no widespread class of middle class consumers. Nearly all the industry we see in the Imperium is heavy industry, geared towards the production of capital goods not consumer goods. If such a society were to come about, and the Administratum heard of it, they would likely raise tithes and tax the prosperity away. Why? Well, when the rest of the galaxy is in such dire straits, how can the Imperium afford to let one world live in relative luxury without contributing more to the Imperium? Clearly if they have the resources to support a consumerist society, they can afford to tithe more.

The few paradise or resort worlds that exist in the Imperium are for the enjoyment and recuperation of the powerful such as nobility, highly placed Administratum officials, Ecclesiarchy members, Inquisitors. Even then, they appear to be more places of relative untouched natural beauty rather than modern built up consumer societies, and the populations exist as a servant class. Think a planet of resort hotel staff, themselves living in picturesque naturalistic poverty when not serving their masters.

So even if the Imperium were to encounter or somehow spontaneously develop a comfortable 21st century equivalent society on a world, it would either be taxed out of existence, or maybe converted to a resort planet for the benefit of Imperial peers.

Absolutely agreed. The Imperium has been in a state of pretty much continuous Total War for 10,000 years.

The only instances of modern Total War we have are WW1 amd WW2. Taking a look at the home fronts in the various countries involved should give you an indication of what happens to things like 'luxuries' when a state is dedicated wholly to prosecuting a war.

WW1 lasted for 4 years. WW2 lasted for 6.

The Imperium as a whole has been in that same state for 10,000.

From a realism perspective, they've actually got the whole 'universal fascistic crap-hole' thing bang on the money for the Imperium...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, another favourite piece of headcanon:

Although long-distance deep-warp travel is how people traverse the colossal distances of the Imperium, there are numerous 'little' locally produced puddle-jumpers that are capable of travelling between nearby systems in a similar 'warp-skimming' method to the Tau.

This opens up a whole load of cool scifi avenues for small-scale interplanetary empires beneath Imperial rule, low-level interplanetary commerce, and for stuff like fugitives and other such characters to move between systems without having to stow away on naval vessels.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

Oh, another favourite piece of headcanon:

Although long-distance deep-warp travel is how people traverse the colossal distances of the Imperium, there are numerous 'little' locally produced puddle-jumpers that are capable of travelling between nearby systems in a similar 'warp-skimming' method to the Tau.

This opens up a whole load of cool scifi avenues for small-scale interplanetary empires beneath Imperial rule, low-level interplanetary commerce, and for stuff like fugitives and other such characters to move between systems without having to stow away on naval vessels.

That's not headcanon, but actual GW canon. Calculated jumps were how ships got around before the advent of Navigators, and they still are how many ships get around. FFG's RPGs had the Chartist captains, who basically had set navigational data and kept doing the same routes of calculated jumps over generations. They are slower than ships with Navigators, as they have to keep popping back out of the warp in re-orient and calculate the next jump.

The sheer size of the universe, and the necessity for large scale trade as evidenced by entire worlds exporting or importing vast quantities of bulk goods. The number of Navigators has never been explicitly stated but they are portrayed still as not being dirt common. Therefore if they are uncommon, then how do all the bulk food freighters that keep hive worlds alive get around? Answer is calculated jumps.

That also answers how interstellar human pirates can exist, as obviously not every little pirate vessel is going to have or being able to kidnap a Navigator.

Iracundus wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

Oh, another favourite piece of headcanon:

Although long-distance deep-warp travel is how people traverse the colossal distances of the Imperium, there are numerous 'little' locally produced puddle-jumpers that are capable of travelling between nearby systems in a similar 'warp-skimming' method to the Tau.

This opens up a whole load of cool scifi avenues for small-scale interplanetary empires beneath Imperial rule, low-level interplanetary commerce, and for stuff like fugitives and other such characters to move between systems without having to stow away on naval vessels.

That's not headcanon, but actual GW canon. Calculated jumps were how ships got around before the advent of Navigators, and they still are how many ships get around. FFG's RPGs had the Chartist captains, who basically had set navigational data and kept doing the same routes of calculated jumps over generations. They are slower than ships with Navigators, as they have to keep popping back out of the warp in re-orient and calculate the next jump.

The sheer size of the universe, and the necessity for large scale trade as evidenced by entire worlds exporting or importing vast quantities of bulk goods. The number of Navigators has never been explicitly stated but they are portrayed still as not being dirt common. Therefore if they are uncommon, then how do all the bulk food freighters that keep hive worlds alive get around? Answer is calculated jumps.

That also answers how interstellar human pirates can exist, as obviously not every little pirate vessel is going to have or being able to kidnap a Navigator.

Also why a lot of trade is done in convoys; you merge Gellar fields and have one lead ship with a navigator take everyone along for the ride. Much more vulnerable to warp storms but good for efficient medium-range bulk perishable goods trade. Plus you have a lot of nominal friends around in case of raids.

Iracundus wrote:

DontEatRawHagis wrote:
That normal life on Imperial Worlds can range from slave labor to modern day life. I imagine that there is a world out there very similar to the 21st century 1st World Country with all that that entails. Religion wise there is the Imperial Cult but it’s not as regimentally enforced with most of the populous falling into an agnostic type or Easter/Christmas type populous.

While the Ecclisiarchy is powerful on certain worlds I imagine that these worlds are stable enough not to warrant drastic action. Especially if they meet their tithe no one actually bothers them.

Assuming a world is actually in touch with the Imperium and not cut off, I cannot see a world having a 21st century modern day lifestyle for very long for the following reasons:

The comforts of modern day life rest on a consumerist society. We don't see this in any existing 40K societies. At best there might be a tiny layer of luxury at the top and the slightly larger layer of servants and artisans that serve them, but there is no widespread class of middle class consumers. Nearly all the industry we see in the Imperium is heavy industry, geared towards the production of capital goods not consumer goods. If such a society were to come about, and the Administratum heard of it, they would likely raise tithes and tax the prosperity away. Why? Well, when the rest of the galaxy is in such dire straits, how can the Imperium afford to let one world live in relative luxury without contributing more to the Imperium? Clearly if they have the resources to support a consumerist society, they can afford to tithe more.

The few paradise or resort worlds that exist in the Imperium are for the enjoyment and recuperation of the powerful such as nobility, highly placed Administratum officials, Ecclesiarchy members, Inquisitors. Even then, they appear to be more places of relative untouched natural beauty rather than modern built up consumer societies, and the populations exist as a servant class. Think a planet of resort hotel staff, themselves living in picturesque naturalistic poverty when not serving their masters.

So even if the Imperium were to encounter or somehow spontaneously develop a comfortable 21st century equivalent society on a world, it would either be taxed out of existence, or maybe converted to a resort planet for the benefit of Imperial peers.

A lot of Warhammer fiction focuses on the world’s that are either at war or are geared towards supplying the various fronts. There has to be at least a couple of worlds where they haven’t been touched by war for hundreds of years or if there was war it was easy enough for local forces to deal with. They ship off a crapton of crops and such to the Imperium. While the rest of the population is very 21st century lifestyle.

A lot of Black Library books deal with themes of class divides with the slave class of servitors, working class(farmers, soldiers and such), and upper class (governors and lords). So to say that there is a missing class that is not represented isn’t as far fetched as you’d think. As long as the tithe comes no one cares how a planet carries on.

We do see a couple of worlds with a recognisable middle class of sorts in Abnett’s Inquisition books. It’s just that the Inquisitors are generally either slumming it to get info from underground informants or cruising past those same middle classes in the luxury grav-limousine they commandeered on their way to the estate and yacht dealership in the expensive part of town, so we never see what their lives are like, beyond “people with free time and disposable income”.

There's a few in the Ciaphas Cain novels too, that manage to maintain a comfortable middle class and reasonably open society.



You're still looking at something more like China than western Europe or north America, though.

A single Space Marine per Space Marine squad is designated to carry a small teleportation device, embedded in his palm. This device can only teleport smaller objects. In the battle barge in orbit each squad has its own armoury with ammunition, grenades, equipment and weapons. In the armoury a servitor with an incorporated teleportation device received the orders from the Space Marine below and teleports the order down.
This can explain how Space Marines can stay in a fight for a long time without being bulked up with all the necessary equipment. It also lets the squad exchange their special and heavy weapons during a battle, reflecting the incredible flexibility of the tactical squad.

Chaospling wrote:
A single Space Marine per Space Marine squad is designated to carry a small teleportation device, embedded in his palm. This device can only teleport smaller objects. In the battle barge in orbit each squad has its own armoury with ammunition, grenades, equipment and weapons. In the armoury a servitor with an incorporated teleportation device received the orders from the Space Marine below and teleports the order down.
This can explain how Space Marines can stay in a fight for a long time without being bulked up with all the necessary equipment. It also lets the squad exchange their special and heavy weapons during a battle, reflecting the incredible flexibility of the tactical squad.

Nice. Explains unlimited ammo and why each marine doesn't have a mountain of clips strapped to their bodies. I had a different theory of where they hide their clips but your head canon is more family friendly then mine

The Space Marine fitting into it's armor isn't that weird when you consider what other various GSC members look like.

Anyway, the headcanon - the Emperor borrowed most of the things he "invented" from the dominant forces in the galaxy:
Space Marine Geneseed: Tyranid Genestealers
Librarius: CW Eldar Ghosthelms and Runes
Webway: DE Eldar escape Chaos by using the Webway
MEQ Spam: Necron Warrior spam
POTMS: C'tan
Being an donkey-cave: Demons
Being an idiot: Orkz

T'au didn't exist yet (and wouldn't be a major power).

I tend towards a slightly less hopeless version of the universe than the one you see in the lore. Where Imperial Guard service isn't a death sentence, for instance, and the citizenry have lives outside of the cogs they turn.

Not enough that it's a great place to live, but more World War II Britain, and less World War II Stalingrad.