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Unless you were part of an organization with a rich, proud history, you wouldn't get why I feel that way.

Yes because the Ultramarines have no proud, rich history in the backstory, just endless victories and celebrations.. Though I'm not as sure this is what you mean, could you clarify this?

Course I don't play just Ultramarines, I play multiple things (Primarily Chaos) but as I've constantly heard every single joke/criticism about Ultramarines I tend to avoid playing them just because it seems like everyone's read 1d4chan and listened to text to speech and constantly spouts things that aren't true, haven't been true, or aren't really less bs then some of the other things people conveniently ignore from other xenos and chapters even as I play a game.

After a while of this, It's gotten old, so very old.

I'm still working my way through the game but I'm not a fan of space marines, even tho I've gotten some primaris since I think they look awesome, but I mainly use Dark Eldar and Astra Militarum and Adeptus Mechanicus and I just dislike how Marines seem to get all the new models, get their codexs out faster then others. Mainly focusing on my love for my Dark Eldar I know I will see death watch, Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Space Wolfs before I even see my Dark Eldar codex. Thats my only dislike about space marines, just wish they'd released all the main armys codexs first and then started releasing all their other factions of space marines.

UMs are the poster boys and have had some atrocious pieces written about them. Their plot armour is thicker than a pachycephalosaurus' skull (see one company beating Hive Fleet Behemoth vs. Blood Angels sitting in the Tower of the Lost with the Nids swarming all around them and growing their hair for their inevitable rescue at the hands of Prince Guilliman), then they had the Matt Ward thing, then they have the whole Primarch returns and changes the setting (which some people didn't like).

 Bobthehero wrote:
Personally, my dislike of the UM comes from that one book where the author ignores the DKoK fluff in order to put the UM on a pedestal, that stung and that increased with the return of Roboute (primarchs are a mistake, imo)

Not that I am a big fan of SM's in general, but that's another topic

Feel you. The Imperial Fists beating the Alpha Legion at asymmetric warfare, and killing our Primarch to boot, stung.

 Blackie wrote:

brettdavis1991 wrote:


8. My roommate, who is just starting his army, is the first UM player I have met. I never see them played where I live and I live in a major city.

That's extremely anecdotal. I've been in the hobby since 3rd edition and approx 2/3 (but probably more) of the players that I have met in almost 20 years owns a SM army. The majority of them were UM or vanilla marines, only a few were black templars, salamanders, BA, DA or SW. I don't even remember playing against another chapter. And I haven't faced black templars or BA in years.

I can't stand them for several reasons and my feeling started in 3rd edition, not recently, but their effectiveness in the game has never been one of those reasons, I couldn't care less about tournament lists.

Yes it is anecdotal as is your example but if you look at every poll of what people play and their favorite chapter, ultras are far from the most popular. Usually fists, dark angels, or space wolves win.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Just Tony wrote:

brettdavis1991 wrote:
4. Get over it

This, of course, is about the most mature way of handling discourse. Never mind the valid reasons behind the argument you simply dismissed with a snide remark.




I'd love to know what army you play, and more specifically what faction. Show up with an Ulthwe army and have whomever you are facing say something akin to "Oh, you play Biel Tan." It's an insult to every bit of work you've put into the army and any investment you have in the fluff of your faction.

But yeah, "get over it".

I'm dismissive of it because I don't think it is a valid reason. It was over two decades ago. It's hard to believe some people are still salty over that two decades later.

I play AM and Chaos but plan on doing a DA Army when the Codex comes out.

ChazSexington wrote:UMs are the poster boys and have had some atrocious pieces written about them. Their plot armour is thicker than a pachycephalosaurus' skull (see one company beating Hive Fleet Behemoth vs. Blood Angels sitting in the Tower of the Lost with the Nids swarming all around them and growing their hair for their inevitable rescue at the hands of Prince Guilliman), then they had the Matt Ward thing, then they have the whole Primarch returns and changes the setting (which some people didn't like).

I assume you're talking about the Battle of Macragge when you talk about one company defeating Hive Fleet Behemoth?

If so, you are probably wrong on EVERY front about that.
Firstly, the entire Chapter, plus Titan Legions, the local Battlefleet and Ultramar PDF forces, were engaged in the war. The 1st Company was left to defend the polar fortresses, only supported by auxilia and some Titans, and were pretty much wiped clean out. The rest of the Chapter was doing hit-and-run attacks on the swarm (see Cold Steel Ridge).

In fact, the Ultramarines pretty much LOST every major ground battle there - barring a few survivors from the southern polar fortress and the 3rd and 7th companies clearing out the infested remains of them, the Tyranids slaughtered the Ultramarines at Cold Steel Ridge, and annihilated all defenders of the northern fortress, killed most of the southern, and even brought down the majority of the Titans deployed.
The only reason the Ultramarines survived is because they had to use unconventional void tactics and kamikaze'd a battleship to suck the Tyranid fleet into the Warp.
Not to mention, Behemoth was a smaller Hive Fleet than Leviathan. So no, not one company destroying a Hive Fleet at all.

Ward was three editions ago. How long can this be dragged out for?

Having a Primarch return is a big deal, but Guilliman was always in the contention for coming back. Whether he would or not is a different matter, but if people are bothered about a Primarch coming back, then why don't I hear more complaints about Vulkan returning in the War of the Beast?
Realistically, either Guilliman or Lion would come back - as it stands, only Guilliman has for the moment.

Again, it's less of an "Ultramarines are special" and more "we didn't want a Primarch". Not just because they're Ultramarines.

Hm. Do people really hate UM? Hate is a strong word, as it represents a poisonous emotion that will eat you from within, destroying you as a person. I doubt anyone really hates them.

I tell you what the issue is. Memes. 4chan is a 'tarded place that ruins plenty of good things. Blood Ravens, one of my favourite Chapters, the one that got me into 40k, got the magpie meme because of an RPG-themed game design. UM get hate because the Wardian meme got popularizes. This isn't helped my the TTS series that capitalizes on said meme.

It is popular to dislike poster boys and it is popular to go along with memes. To those people I say: Grow up. You behave like Space Wolves.

To those who genuinely dislike the art style or design behind UM I say: I respect your opinion, though 'hate' is a very strong word.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Unless you were part of an organization with a rich, proud history, you wouldn't get why I feel that way.

Yes because the Ultramarines have no proud, rich history in the backstory, just endless victories and celebrations.. Though I'm not as sure this is what you mean, could you clarify this?

Course I don't play just Ultramarines, I play multiple things (Primarily Chaos) but as I've constantly heard every single joke/criticism about Ultramarines I tend to avoid playing them just because it seems like everyone's read 1d4chan and listened to text to speech and constantly spouts things that aren't true, haven't been true, or aren't really less bs then some of the other things people conveniently ignore from other xenos and chapters even as I play a game.

After a while of this, It's gotten old, so very old.

Yes, I will explain.

I've served in the US military for over 20 years. I also served in the company that my two great-uncles fought and died with in WW2. There is a MASSIVE history behind that unit, and it'd be no different if someone saw my 38th Infantry Division patch and said "Oh, so you're in the 101st Airborne.", which pisses on both units' legacies. Players calling me an Ultramarines player when I play Crimson Fists is like a micro version of that. I realize the magnitude is different, but the feeling behind it is the same.

That addresses my annoyance (not hate) at the player base who does that.


Now as far as GW? It's not hate, but it's bad form to play favorites at all within your product, especially when that product is supposed to be a reasonably balanced game.

brettdavis1991 wrote:

 Just Tony wrote:

brettdavis1991 wrote:
4. Get over it

This, of course, is about the most mature way of handling discourse. Never mind the valid reasons behind the argument you simply dismissed with a snide remark.




I'd love to know what army you play, and more specifically what faction. Show up with an Ulthwe army and have whomever you are facing say something akin to "Oh, you play Biel Tan." It's an insult to every bit of work you've put into the army and any investment you have in the fluff of your faction.

But yeah, "get over it".

I'm dismissive of it because I don't think it is a valid reason. It was over two decades ago. It's hard to believe some people are still salty over that two decades later.

I play AM and Chaos but plan on doing a DA Army when the Codex comes out.

See the above, and even though it was over two decades ago, the attitude still persists.

Do People really mistake space marine chapters as iconic as crimsom fist for ultramarines?
Normally people dont know wich tau sept or hive fleet goes with a certain paintjob, but marines?

Galas wrote:Do People really mistake space marine chapters as iconic as crimsom fist for ultramarines?
Normally people dont know wich tau sept or hive fleet goes with a certain paintjob, but marines?

As I stated earlier, since 2nd Edition ANY Marine army that was Space Wolves, Dark Angels, or Blood Angels got lumped in as "Ultramarines" as that was what the codex of the time was called. There are still people TO THIS DAY who use that blanket identifier, and we're talking younger players as well as grognards.

I don’t have anything against them apart from the whole Primaris Marines thing. I haven’t read up much on 8th though, is Guilliman still portrayed as invincible and infallible? If not then that would go some way to reversing what Ward did. I don’t find them nearly as obnoxious as Tau or SW though.

 ChazSexington wrote:
UMs are the poster boys and have had some atrocious pieces written about them. Their plot armour is thicker than a pachycephalosaurus' skull (see one company beating Hive Fleet Behemoth vs. Blood Angels sitting in the Tower of the Lost with the Nids swarming all around them and growing their hair for their inevitable rescue at the hands of Prince Guilliman), then they had the Matt Ward thing, then they have the whole Primarch returns and changes the setting (which some people didn't like).

 Bobthehero wrote:
Personally, my dislike of the UM comes from that one book where the author ignores the DKoK fluff in order to put the UM on a pedestal, that stung and that increased with the return of Roboute (primarchs are a mistake, imo)

Not that I am a big fan of SM's in general, but that's another topic

Feel you. The Imperial Fists beating the Alpha Legion at asymmetric warfare, and killing our Primarch to boot, stung.

Nah they didnt beat the Alpha Legion at asymetric warfare, all the way through that book the Alphas had the upper hand, all Dorn did was work out what the logical end game was, and prep for it, it was obvious in the end what they were planning and that was the weakness of the Alpha legion, they were so arrogant that they could hide the fact that they had a fleet incoming that they didnt think it could be stopped, where as the Fists knew that they could not counter the Alphas directly at there own game and sought help, they adapted, the Alphas should have cancelled the attack the second they had been compromised, that was there error, Dorn exploited this as you would expect him to.

Thats just my take away from that book anyway and may not be 100% correct.

 Formosa wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:
UMs are the poster boys and have had some atrocious pieces written about them. Their plot armour is thicker than a pachycephalosaurus' skull (see one company beating Hive Fleet Behemoth vs. Blood Angels sitting in the Tower of the Lost with the Nids swarming all around them and growing their hair for their inevitable rescue at the hands of Prince Guilliman), then they had the Matt Ward thing, then they have the whole Primarch returns and changes the setting (which some people didn't like).

 Bobthehero wrote:
Personally, my dislike of the UM comes from that one book where the author ignores the DKoK fluff in order to put the UM on a pedestal, that stung and that increased with the return of Roboute (primarchs are a mistake, imo)

Not that I am a big fan of SM's in general, but that's another topic

Feel you. The Imperial Fists beating the Alpha Legion at asymmetric warfare, and killing our Primarch to boot, stung.

Nah they didnt beat the Alpha Legion at asymetric warfare, all the way through that book the Alphas had the upper hand, all Dorn did was work out what the logical end game was, and prep for it, it was obvious in the end what they were planning and that was the weakness of the Alpha legion, they were so arrogant that they could hide the fact that they had a fleet incoming that they didnt think it could be stopped, where as the Fists knew that they could not counter the Alphas directly at there own game and sought help, they adapted, the Alphas should have cancelled the attack the second they had been compromised, that was there error, Dorn exploited this as you would expect him to.

Thats just my take away from that book anyway and may not be 100% correct.

The Alpha Legion won all but the last battle, meaning they were crushed. It doesn't matter if they blow up a few statues and kill a few Imperial Fists if they lose most of their fleet and a Primarch. Dorn had his fleet ready in ambush and was always going to win. The Alpha Legion were definitely beaten.

The only way the Alpha Legion could claim any sense of victory would be if they had killed Dorn and Alpharius had escaped, because they would always definitely have lost the space battle.

One reason it feels like people hate Marines in general and UM specifically is the entitlement.

I love Marines and UM, but this "Marines should be as good or better at everything than anything - both per model and per point!" mentality *some* Marines players have is very grateing.

No, they shouldn't outshoot glass cannons at the same price point. No, the BOlter shouldn't always beat a Splinter Rifle, Gauss Blaster, or Avenger Shuriken Catapault. That's just crazy.

A while back someone commented that the UM were retconned into a Founding Chapter. Would anyone like to elaborate on that?

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
A while back someone commented that the UM were retconned into a Founding Chapter. Would anyone like to elaborate on that?

Originally, they were 3rd Founding or something like that. They got retconned into a 1st Founder after.

Not like that was the only major change from rogue trader to second that's for sure.

Can I still field my half-Eldar Librarian?

(don't actually have one...)

Rainbow Warriors were a founding chapter in Rogue Trader. Just saying.

reasons to not like Ultramarines

Telion,
Kronos,
etc.

Hmm I want to play a generic Space Marine Chapter.
Well, I like the techmarine in a tank for BS 2+
and when the tank is destroyed, I get my techmarine for free

Snipers might be nice, oh well let's add in this guy

I can combine the Cptn and Lt as BG

and they can only be taken as Ultramarines

What happened to the rigid Hide bound Codex thumpers
10 man tac squad with a dolphin and a flamer?

With a dolphin.. Is that even english? I'm not even sure what that one's complaining about, aside from that certain chapters have their own special characters.

I'll like for generic versions of the ultramarine characters.

I just want my own Cyrus, a Scout Character

Agreed, they should really create more generic characters.

They won't, of course, cause they can hype the feth out of named ones. But they should.

Bharring wrote:
One reason it feels like people hate Marines in general and UM specifically is the entitlement.

I love Marines and UM, but this "Marines should be as good or better at everything than anything - both per model and per point!" mentality *some* Marines players have is very grateing.

No, they shouldn't outshoot glass cannons at the same price point. No, the BOlter shouldn't always beat a Splinter Rifle, Gauss Blaster, or Avenger Shuriken Catapault. That's just crazy.

In my experience, it's usually players who can't disassociate fluff vs game mechanics.

In the plethora of SM novels and background they are unstoppable machines of war. Played a game against someone once who complained and was very sour the whole game because his favourite tactical squad failed a charge against some Nurglings and failed their morale test following turn running off the table "that is completely against the fluff, marines would never run away.. rant rant" . (obviously pre 8th)

So yeah, was looking forward to that game ending. No one really played him much a while later for similar experiences and he ended up leaving the store altogether.

 NurglesR0T wrote:

Bharring wrote:
One reason it feels like people hate Marines in general and UM specifically is the entitlement.

I love Marines and UM, but this "Marines should be as good or better at everything than anything - both per model and per point!" mentality *some* Marines players have is very grateing.

No, they shouldn't outshoot glass cannons at the same price point. No, the BOlter shouldn't always beat a Splinter Rifle, Gauss Blaster, or Avenger Shuriken Catapault. That's just crazy.

In my experience, it's usually players who can't disassociate fluff vs game mechanics.

In the plethora of SM novels and background they are unstoppable machines of war. Played a game against someone once who complained and was very sour the whole game because his favourite tactical squad failed a charge against some Nurglings and failed their morale test following turn running off the table "that is completely against the fluff, marines would never run away.. rant rant" . (obviously pre 8th)

So yeah, was looking forward to that game ending. No one really played him much a while later for similar experiences and he ended up leaving the store altogether.

It is grating, but that has nothing to do with Ultramarines. I agree with the sentiments above and UM (successor) is my primary army. It's just a Marine fluff/game dissociation as stated above.

There should be generic marine special characters, I think that's a fine idea.

Indeed. Apologies for going off topic. My comment was more directed against marines in general rather than directly UM.

It may not have anything to do with UM directly, it has a proportionate frequency equal to how often the fluff keeps their faction humble. Chaos Marines and space Marines are by all accounts about equal in combat but you're going to hear "how did my super special guys fail, that's so unrealistic!" A lot more from loyalist players.

the_scotsman wrote:
It may not have anything to do with UM directly, it has a proportionate frequency equal to how often the fluff keeps their faction humble. Chaos Marines and space Marines are by all accounts about equal in combat but you're going to hear "how did my super special guys fail, that's so unrealistic!" A lot more from loyalist players.

Anecdotal, and also while it might be true, given that there are more imperial marine players than chaos marines, it's entirely possible the two are proportionately equal in the percentage of players that make that statement.

For my own anecdotal, I only know 3 chaos marine players in my local group and I've heard that statement about their marines from all 3.

I recall (Maybe from a White Dwarf or something) that Telion, Kronos etc were intended to be generic characters.

Where, but that all changed.

I mean, we HAVE generic characters and we got relics. What we need is a way to pay for maybe a special snowflake rule for your dude/dudette.