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 Crimson wrote:
BCB, I'd still like to hear your view on index units using codex statagems, relics, chapter tactics or warlord traits.

They can use them because the Codex explicitly tells us what models with what keywords can use them. This includes units from other books, as per the Death Guard FAQ.

This is not the same as the Psychic Powers rule because the Datasheet for Librarian on Bike is not in the codex, and the Index datasheet gives us an explicit page number to get our powers from. FURTHERMORE the designers commentary is utterly explicit.

Does Your Model Have A Datasheet In A Codex? > No > Use The Index Version Of Your Model’s Datasheet

Even if the RaW wasn't supportive of being locked into the Index powers, the Designers commentary overwrites any RaW and tells you to use the index version, which includes using only the Index powers.

Further FURTHERMORE, the Designers Commentary flowchart for Index option tells us we may "Choose To Use The Index Version For Its Wargear Options (Note That If The Wargear Has Rules In The Codex, These Replace The Index Rules)"

Wargear Options. Not Powers, not any other rules. WARGEAR OPTIONS ONLY. You do not have permission to use new powers, or use the updated rules for powers, or updated special rules. Wargear only.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
They can use them because the Codex explicitly tells us what models with what keywords can use them.

It is exactly the same. The codex explicitly tells us what table models which have access to Librarius/Sanguinary discipline use.

 Crimson wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
They can use them because the Codex explicitly tells us what models with what keywords can use them.

It is exactly the same. The codex explicitly tells us what table models which have access to Librarius/Sanguinary discipline use.

It actually isn't, because the Librarian on Bike has an explicit reference to where their powers come from.

And like I said (and you ignored), the Designers FAQ supersedes any RaW arguments either way.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
It actually isn't, because the Librarian on Bike has an explicit reference to where their powers come from.

And codex has an explicit rule on how to assign powers to models with Librarius/Sanguinary discipline.

And like I said (and you ignored), the Designers FAQ supersedes any RaW arguments either way.

It does not. If you interpret it to mean that index models cannot use codex rules, then they cannot use codex tactics, relics, traits or stratagems either. And if the codex saying that models with certain keywords can use those things, then codex sayin which table models with certain discipline use will also suffice.

 Crimson wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
It actually isn't, because the Librarian on Bike has an explicit reference to where their powers come from.

And codex has an explicit rule on how to assign powers to models with Librarius/Sanguinary discipline.

And like I said (and you ignored), the Designers FAQ supersedes any RaW arguments either way.

It does not. If you interpret it to mean that index models cannot use codex rules, then they cannot use codex tactics, relics, traits or stratagems either. And if the codex saying that models with certain keywords can use those things, then codex sayin which table models with certain discipline use will also suffice.

By your logic Blood Angels can never use Rhinos because the Dark Angels codex overwrites the Blood Angels entry.

From a common sense position we can clearly discard that.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
By your logic Blood Angels can never use Rhinos because the Dark Angels codex overwrites the Blood Angels entry.

From a common sense position we can clearly discard that.

With all due respect, if common sense was your strong suit, we wouldn't be having this discussion in the first place!

Codex Dark Angels is not an update or an replacement for codex Blood Angels. Codex Blood Angels however is an update and replacement for Blood Angels portion of the index. If you had any common sense, you'd realise that this is obvious. We merely have an allowance to use some very specific parts of that outdated content.
Furthermore, this isn't even solely about which rule is newer. The codices have explicit rules on which table to use for models with certain discipline. You cannot just ignore that. If codex saying that a model with a certain keyword may use codex relic or warlord table applies to index units, then sure as hell codex sayin that a model with certain discipline must use certain table applies as well.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
By your logic Blood Angels can never use Rhinos because the Dark Angels codex overwrites the Blood Angels entry.

From a common sense position we can clearly discard that.

Hahahahahahahahahahaha... What?! How did you even get a thought that goofy from what he said? Are you just trolling at this point?

The Index Librarian on a Bike Datasheet simply tells us to generate two powers from the Librarius Discipline. The Blood Angels and Dark Angels preamble pages tell us to generate Psychic powers from Sanguinary and Interomancy disciplines. Those are overwritten in the new Codices. So we are following the Designer's Notes to use the Index Datasheet while using the new powers - the powers are not on the Datasheet. What we use are the stats for the Librarian on a Bike which are only found there as well as his wargear options.

Are those arguing that we should use the Index powers saying that it would be OK for a Blood Angels Librarian on a Bike to manifest Blood Boil on a 5 when the Codex now has it on a 6? Or that a Librarian on a Bike's Shield of Sanguinius would grant a 4+ Invul as per the Index instead of a 5+ Invul as per the Codex?

 BaconCatBug wrote:
That makes no sense. That's like saying I can take my Ad Mech as ULTRAMARINES and get the bonuses from Girlyman, something which is explicitly forbidden.

they're two VERY differant things though, one is a reasonable idea thats clearly within the intent of the rules. and the other is being silly and attempting to abuse something.

BrianDavion wrote:
they're two VERY differant things though, one is a reasonable idea thats clearly within the intent of the rules. and the other is being silly and attempting to abuse something.

The intent of the rules is identical to the letter of the rules. Rules don't just randomly happen though cosmic radiation randomly hitting some hard drives. The author had to intend to write the rules down and intended to write them exactly as they did.

If it wasn't intended, errata would be issued. No errata is issued, thus by definition the RaW is RaI.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
they're two VERY differant things though, one is a reasonable idea thats clearly within the intent of the rules. and the other is being silly and attempting to abuse something.

The intent of the rules is identical to the letter of the rules. Rules don't just randomly happen though cosmic radiation randomly hitting some hard drives. The author had to intend to write the rules down and intended to write them exactly as they did.

If it wasn't intended, errata would be issued. No errata is issued, thus by definition the RaW is RaI.

Thats cute. So your argument is that your interpretation is the correct one because GW provided a reference in the index and because theres no errata or faq that says "baconcatbug is wrong"? And wtf is that Rhino stuff? Is that just a random distraction or what's that supposed to do?

Genuinely reminded of the Chewbacca defence.

Every time someone types "by that logic" in YMDC a logical fallacy surely follows... :-/

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Every time someone types "by that logic" in YMDC a logical fallacy surely follows... :-/

By that logic Chewbacca lives on Endor though!

 BaconCatBug wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
they're two VERY differant things though, one is a reasonable idea thats clearly within the intent of the rules. and the other is being silly and attempting to abuse something.

The intent of the rules is identical to the letter of the rules. Rules don't just randomly happen though cosmic radiation randomly hitting some hard drives. The author had to intend to write the rules down and intended to write them exactly as they did.

If it wasn't intended, errata would be issued. No errata is issued, thus by definition the RaW is RaI.

I'm not so sure about that. There have been numerous inconsistencies and contradictions in GW writing, the last Edition rulebook is full of them, and your own signature indicates that much of that hasn't change. Personally, I've attributed it to a room full of drunken monkeys and a dart board, but whatever floats your boat.

If Power Selection occurs when you select the Librarian on a bike, he has to use the Index Powers, as we have no authority to invoke or reference the Codex at that time. If Power Selection occurs after army selection and during game setup, he uses the Codex Powers, because it is applying to the entire army.

It is that simple.

 Charistoph wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
they're two VERY differant things though, one is a reasonable idea thats clearly within the intent of the rules. and the other is being silly and attempting to abuse something.

The intent of the rules is identical to the letter of the rules. Rules don't just randomly happen though cosmic radiation randomly hitting some hard drives. The author had to intend to write the rules down and intended to write them exactly as they did.

If it wasn't intended, errata would be issued. No errata is issued, thus by definition the RaW is RaI.

I'm not so sure about that. There have been numerous inconsistencies and contradictions in GW writing, the last Edition rulebook is full of them, and your own signature indicates that much of that hasn't change. Personally, I've attributed it to a room full of drunken monkeys and a dart board, but whatever floats your boat.

If Power Selection occurs when you select the Librarian on a bike, he has to use the Index Powers, as we have no authority to invoke or reference the Codex at that time. If Power Selection occurs after army selection and during game setup, he uses the Codex Powers, because it is applying to the entire army.

It is that simple.

Indeed. Intent can sometimes falter in execution, and an error or omission is not the same as intent.
But this all plays into the "they changed it so I was right all along" mindset some folk have espoused in other posts where, oddly, proof against their stance is taken as support for it. :-/ Arguing sometimes that RAW must be RAI and other times that RAI is irrelevant... doesn't make much sense to me.

The wording in the Codexes is (e.g.) "Before the battle, generate the Psychic Powers for PSYKERS..." etc.

From this, I take it that Power selection must be after you've included the model in your army during game setup. I don't think this timing has any bearing on which list they choose from, but if it helps convince you that's how I see the rules on this.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
The wording in the Codexes is (e.g.) "Before the battle, generate the Psychic Powers for PSYKERS..." etc.

From this, I take it that Power selection must be after you've included the model in your army during game setup. I don't think this timing has any bearing on which list they choose from, but if it helps convince you that's how I see the rules on this.

The reason I included the qualifier is due to the fact that the Battle Primer indicates that there may be situations where the timing of the Power Selection may be changed, either by the Codex or the Mission. "Before the Battle" is one of those unfortunate phrases which is very inclusive, and can include army creation.

 JohnnyHell wrote:

The wording in the Codexes is (e.g.) "Before the battle, generate the Psychic Powers for PSYKERS..." etc.

Yes, before the battle generate the psychic powers for index PSYKERS from the index, like the index datasheets tells you to.

 Charistoph wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
The wording in the Codexes is (e.g.) "Before the battle, generate the Psychic Powers for PSYKERS..." etc.

From this, I take it that Power selection must be after you've included the model in your army during game setup. I don't think this timing has any bearing on which list they choose from, but if it helps convince you that's how I see the rules on this.

The reason I included the qualifier is due to the fact that the Battle Primer indicates that there may be situations where the timing of the Power Selection may be changed, either by the Codex or the Mission. "Before the Battle" is one of those unfortunate phrases which is very inclusive, and can include army creation.

It could seem like an all-encompass pre-game step, but to battle you need two armies picked. If you don't have two armies picked you can't play. I guess that's my logic!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 p5freak wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:

The wording in the Codexes is (e.g.) "Before the battle, generate the Psychic Powers for PSYKERS..." etc.

Yes, before the battle generate the psychic powers for index PSYKERS from the index, like the index datasheets tells you to.

Bless...

How can it be argued that the Index Psychic powers supersede the Codex ones? The Datasheet does not list the powers, it tells you were to get them. The parts of the Index that has the Blood Angels' and Dark Angels' powers have been replaced by their applicable Codex. They are Interomancy or Sanguinary (same names), and they are indeed updated. When they wrote the Index they did not know the page of the Codex that would have the powers, but I think its rather obvious that the powers are updated regardless of Datasheet.

For p5freak, do you try to use the more generous Blood Angels Psychic powers from the Index with your Librarian on a Bike?

I haven't played my bike libby since the codex came out, but when i do i will pick psychic powers from the index, because thats RAW.

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
How can it be argued that the Index Psychic powers supersede the Codex ones? The Datasheet does not list the powers, it tells you were to get them. The parts of the Index that has the Blood Angels' and Dark Angels' powers have been replaced by their applicable Codex. They are Interomancy or Sanguinary (same names), and they are indeed updated. When they wrote the Index they did not know the page of the Codex that would have the powers, but I think its rather obvious that the powers are updated regardless of Datasheet.

If Power Selection is during Army Creation, the Index Datasheet does not have permission to check with the Codex for its rules for Psychic Powers, only Wargear.

Something I noticed in the Index last night: It tells you to generate powers "Before the battle begins", NOT at army construction. So if you insist that you must use the Index, then you are actually hurting your case.
Since the Index does not allow you to generate powers at army construction, it allows for the timing for the Codex rules to apply, ergo allowing you to use the Codex table to be used for ALL Psykers in your army that can access Librarius.

Although it is important to note that this argument doesn't imply that you MUST use the Codex table, just that you may.

-

 BaconCatBug wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
they're two VERY differant things though, one is a reasonable idea thats clearly within the intent of the rules. and the other is being silly and attempting to abuse something.

The intent of the rules is identical to the letter of the rules.

If that were true then there never be a need to have a FAQ in the first place.

 doctortom wrote:
If that were true then there never be a need to have a FAQ in the first place.

No, because Errata changes the rules, Clarification FAQ reinforces the RaW and Special Snowflake Ignore the Rules FAQs supersede RaW.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 doctortom wrote:
If that were true then there never be a need to have a FAQ in the first place.

No, because Errata changes the rules, Clarification FAQ reinforces the RaW and Special Snowflake Ignore the Rules FAQs supersede RaW.

...which means they aren't the same thing and you just disproved your own point? I'm lost as to where this OT diversion is going.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 doctortom wrote:
If that were true then there never be a need to have a FAQ in the first place.

No, because Errata changes the rules, Clarification FAQ reinforces the RaW and Special Snowflake Ignore the Rules FAQs supersede RaW.

If the written rules had reflected their intention, then they wouldn't need Errata. If the intention is clear and matches up with what they had written they would not need a clarification FAQ. "Special snowflake" might indicate they changed their mind on what rule they wanted, but it could mean they didn't write what they intended in the first place. In any case, it does shoot down your claim that RAI = RAW by definition. You should be ashamed of yourself trying to claim that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JohnnyHell wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 doctortom wrote:
If that were true then there never be a need to have a FAQ in the first place.

No, because Errata changes the rules, Clarification FAQ reinforces the RaW and Special Snowflake Ignore the Rules FAQs supersede RaW.

...which means they aren't the same thing and you just disproved your own point? I'm lost as to where this OT diversion is going.

I think he's trying to say that the RAI for the index = the RAW for the index because RAI = RAW all the time. But, we have to not take the RAW of the codex as the same as the RAI for the codex, since those are different rules and we can't use the RAW/RAI from the Codex because we have to use the RAW from the Index, which is the RAI that we have to look at, not the RAI which is the RAW from the Codex. I think he's trying to get us to make the classic blunder of going into a duel with a Sicilian when death is on the line.

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