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 malamis wrote:
To make drop pods great:

1. Increase their points back to 100 with the stormbolter as standard.
2. Allow the owning player to spend reinforcement points on the contents, albeit not on HQs. Possibly not on elites either since that can get weird.

So:

Gaunts got you down? two tac squads with flamers
Lost your Anti Tank assets? Git yew some lascannons boy
Not enough Vanguard in your life? Add some tooled up crusaders to the mix

Fluffy, dangerous, and with the minimum 50% of the army on the board rule, a bit difficult to abuse since they still have to be taken as dedicated transports (so if you want to abuse cheap IG troops/elites/hq choices, you lose your doctrine AND your chapter tactics). 80 points for a glorified jump pack is a waste. A 100 point tax for whatever you need, is a perfectly acceptable overhead.

Not really? Summoning sucks, and that DOESN'T have 100 point tax.

 JNAProductions wrote:

Not really? Summoning sucks, and that DOESN'T have 100 point tax.

Arguably the summoner

And the tax on making sure the psychic power goes off. etc. etc.

Having the option to throw down 8 multimeltas in half range to something big and scary without actually committing to that if you need anti infantry instead is totally worth 100 points.

 malamis wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

Not really? Summoning sucks, and that DOESN'T have 100 point tax.

Arguably the summoner

And the tax on making sure the psychic power goes off. etc. etc.

Having the option to throw down 8 multimeltas in half range to something big and scary without actually committing to that if you need anti infantry instead is totally worth 100 points.

Right, but that's 13*10+29*8=362 points. Plus the pod.

 JNAProductions wrote:

Right, but that's 13*10+29*8=362 points. Plus the pod.

I fail to see your point?

Admittedly i've been making the conventional method of throwing flying multimeltas at people work lately, and the option to take, say HBolter Centurions (or even just HBolter Devs) when facing an infantry army would be welcome.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Yeah, you can't just ignore points costs. Marines are, in pretty much every way, better than Guardsmen model per model.

But point for point... They're not.

Depends on how you're using them, just like the weapons they are equipped with. Comparing weapon efficacy in a vacuum with point values is one thing, comparing them in their availability is another, and comparing them as part of your lists overall strategic stance is another. All are important.

My original comparison is on a one to one basis because thats the way I choose my squads (each gets a limited number of weapons), and those are standard choices. I select a Devastator squad and then the four weapons to equip them with. Paying a few more points gets me a weapon that makes that squad more effective than any other loadout within the tighter range bracket that I expect to operate in. All contexts accounted for, points, availability and mission expectation. Yes, technically speaking Heavy Bolters point for point will outperfom Grav Cannons against GEQ, but it is also true that a single Grav Cannon will out-kill a single Heavy Bolter. Both statements are true, which is why it's ridiculous to say the latter is an absurd statement. Within the context of "what do I give my squad", it's a perfectly viable datapoint, though one of several including "how much will it cost".

In any case, I think of the extra horde killing as a curious bonus, rather than a strategic tool because you want to be using your Devastators against high value targets anyways. At the end of the day Grav Cannons are both effective against a wide range of targets, and easy to deploy in the form of Devastators. Heavy Bolters are ok against hordes, but it seems difficult to deploy enough of them to be effective, especially if you compare them to Assault Cannons and theor popular platform, (or just more marines).

 JNAProductions wrote:

 malamis wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

Not really? Summoning sucks, and that DOESN'T have 100 point tax.

Arguably the summoner

And the tax on making sure the psychic power goes off. etc. etc.

Having the option to throw down 8 multimeltas in half range to something big and scary without actually committing to that if you need anti infantry instead is totally worth 100 points.

Right, but that's 13*10+29*8=362 points. Plus the pod.

Deepstriking 8 multimeltas should definitely cost around 420-450 points.

I don't know. Multimeltas are pretty craptacular.

 malamis wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

Not really? Summoning sucks, and that DOESN'T have 100 point tax.

Arguably the summoner

And the tax on making sure the psychic power goes off. etc. etc.

Having the option to throw down 8 multimeltas in half range to something big and scary without actually committing to that if you need anti infantry instead is totally worth 100 points.

summoning isn't a psychic power anymore. you give up all of your movement on the character in question, roll some dice to maybe get enough power to get what you need, pay reinfrocement points for the summoned unit which suffers all the usual deep-strike restrictions.

I don't really have a stake in this fight anymore since I hopped the fence to the spiky side, but at least if making comparisons to summoning the facts should be accurate.

 Blackie wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 malamis wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

Not really? Summoning sucks, and that DOESN'T have 100 point tax.

Arguably the summoner

And the tax on making sure the psychic power goes off. etc. etc.

Having the option to throw down 8 multimeltas in half range to something big and scary without actually committing to that if you need anti infantry instead is totally worth 100 points.

Right, but that's 13*10+29*8=362 points. Plus the pod.

Deepstriking 8 multimeltas should definitely cost around 420-450 points.

I would literally never pay that exorbitant price for 8 -1 to hit DS melta shots.

 niv-mizzet wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 malamis wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

Not really? Summoning sucks, and that DOESN'T have 100 point tax.

Arguably the summoner

And the tax on making sure the psychic power goes off. etc. etc.

Having the option to throw down 8 multimeltas in half range to something big and scary without actually committing to that if you need anti infantry instead is totally worth 100 points.

Right, but that's 13*10+29*8=362 points. Plus the pod.

Deepstriking 8 multimeltas should definitely cost around 420-450 points.

I would literally never pay that exorbitant price for 8 -1 to hit DS melta shots.

Well... You have around 45% chance to take out a Land Raider with those 8 drop MM, but only if you have Guilliman close by. If they are all on their own, they might have 50% chance killing a Manticore / Predators and better chance killing anything rhino equivenlant.

Neophyte2012 wrote:

 niv-mizzet wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 malamis wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

Not really? Summoning sucks, and that DOESN'T have 100 point tax.

Arguably the summoner

And the tax on making sure the psychic power goes off. etc. etc.

Having the option to throw down 8 multimeltas in half range to something big and scary without actually committing to that if you need anti infantry instead is totally worth 100 points.

Right, but that's 13*10+29*8=362 points. Plus the pod.

Deepstriking 8 multimeltas should definitely cost around 420-450 points.

I would literally never pay that exorbitant price for 8 -1 to hit DS melta shots.

Well... You have around 45% chance to take out a Land Raider with those 8 drop MM, but only if you have Guilliman close by. If they are all on their own, they might have 50% chance killing a Manticore / Predators and better chance killing anything rhino equivenlant.

Assuming you can

(a) See the manticore

(b) Drop in range of said manticore

You will never have both of these.

Drop MMEltas are part of my standard list at the moment since I got tired of win-button guard. With a captain coming down on a jump pack with them they have done some suitably heroic things, specifically doing enough shock damage on a key enemy unit to render said unit inert or at least consider redeployment. It also forces shooting at the mmeltas wether the opponent wants to or not, which is valuable all on its own in the vein of the DISTRACTION CARNIFEX.

In the broader context, it means the hostiles which threaten my knights the most tend to melt before they can do anything, with little to no recourse.

That said, being able to swap them for 2 10 man tac squads to swamp objectives on turn 3 would be very nice if MMeltas are the wrong answer.

And Big Oops in regards to summoning; i've obviously misunderstood the one and only time I saw it happen.

 malamis wrote:
Drop MMEltas are part of my standard list at the moment since I got tired of win-button guard.

Good guy malamis