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More updates on thickening

I really like the Centaur Legs they looks real damn..., that's designed well , I remeber the horrible Samourai's horses thin legs in some Wargames lunches some like spaghetti legs.
Leo.B

lossif Adil wrote:
I really like the Centaur Legs they looks real damn..., that's designed well , I remeber the horrible Samourai's horses thin legs in some Wargames lunches some like spaghetti legs.
Leo.B

And believe it or not, one sculptor formed it, another took it a notch up, and Tim will up it once for plastic and better alignment with the fauns.

Weapon axe with different angle poses.

On good news, thickening for all of the male weapons should be done by next week. Here is our latest modification, which incidentally turned into a more decorative sword then imagined. I am going to refer to it as the bird sword.

An important spear for the centaur or bracing fauns. Spear thickened to about 2mm. An ungor spear is roughly 1/8 inch thickness.

These look really good. An excellent balance of aesthetics and practicality in my opinion.

So here is the point where a 3D MUD design can tell you how a mold can be used to make a sprue frame. The MUD design was 3D built, then is translated to a 2D design for assembly instructions. At the point you get to 2D you can get mold makers to do the EDM work. The issue for models is that US molders are not oriented to this kind of work. Therefor, if you can get the design done by someone who can establish the design, you have most of the work for the molder done for them. EDM is the bulk of the job.



To save costs, you can go the MUD route. Its a slab of steel that goes with a base that a molder can buy from a catalog. Dimensions are pretty wide, but are narrow if the company only has some mud bases, with a little bit of wiggle room if the company has spacers. For instance, a 6x4 MUD slab. If someone had a 12x20, it wont work really.

MUD slabs are cheaper to design for, cheaper to tool, but don't have the production capacity as a dedicated mold. Dedicated molds have more cavity options.

Are there US companies who can make sprues? Yes. Is it feasible to go to the UK or China? Yes.

Experience with China production reps

Get the design done ahead of time, do not come off as new. They are stubborn on PVC or ABS. They will not question you much, so the work needs to be done right ahead of time. I found female reps are easier to work with if they engage with you. Reps who don't engage, will not have your best interests in mind. Miscommunications happen quite often. You can haggle, but it gets to a point where you risk getting lower quality materials. Chinese wholesalers make more money selling in large batches. Companies that demand higher numbers MOQ, can be negotiated with if you're willing to offer more per unit (less work for a wholesaler, and more profit greases the wheel). If you are not willing to go to China, send a rep (foreign companies do offer this option). Its easier to get swindled when a company knows it wont be called out on it. In short, if you can call the BS out ahead of time, you will get farther. That said, there are good companies out there, and you will gravitate to them. Pewter molding is big still, and 3D printing is godly cheap to ship in the country. Repeat business relationships are valued, and are factored into business deals. Nearly all companies use a VPN, so chatting on skype, wechat, or email is possible.

Is it cheaper? I don't really think its as worth it as some may. You are at the mercy of the chinese legal system, and unless you get the contract, be prepared to be at the whims of the company. Ending a contract without a penalty can leave you with a penalty anyways. As the company may ask for a break fee to save face with their bosses. Seems to be a cultural thing.
If you ship any molds back, you have to deal with US and Chinese customs, pay for shipping, insurance, and documentation fees, possibly tariffs for high value goods. If the mold isnt done to excellence, you may still have to refine and pay a molder to get it to par. If you can get through all that, China has some of the best experience available for sprues, beyond the UK.

The difference in prices are getting on par now, because companies have to invest more now to keep up to western standards.


Fun learning experience, if not with its share of pitfalls

This is super interesting to follow along with.

All that leaves us, is making this mold, painting up examples, and preparing the kickstarter page. Based on the remainder of costs, it would be cost efficient to try do this back to back to back. By making the mold, we can showcase that we can make sprue frames of the fauns in injection plastic. We worked hard to make sure we could build a level of trust if possible.

Weapons are looking a lot better!

Interesting post on getting the moulds sorted out, were you talking with Wargames Factory in China?

Look forward to seeing the actual production mould and the first shots.

 ingtaer wrote:
Weapons are looking a lot better!

Interesting post on getting the moulds sorted out, were you talking with Wargames Factory in China?

Look forward to seeing the actual production mould and the first shots.

Should be done thickening the males here, Tim has been spending the past week or so going over every last male weapon and boosting them by 50%. The fear of the parts being thin was validated with further 3D prints. Far cheaper to fix before molds start. The guidelines now will reflect in the females.

Abery molds was our prospect, but unfortunately they just didn't fit the bill. Unsure which factory does Wargames Factory stuff. In my searching I found many Chinese companies with borrowed pictures. Got a recommendation for one in Hong Kong that did rubicons stuff (though there website is kind of sketchy) hah. After asking about HIPS plastic, the designers essentially were pushed out of their comfort zone. Tried Sk Engineering in the UK, which does all of Victrix stuff, but we were so early in the game that I think they wrote us off. There were a few other UK ones, but they insisted on doing their own sculpting to fit the mold. Renedra, had a 2 year waiting list, and wasn't accepting clients. Small family run shop.


After my setbacks with Abery Molds, I got to talking with Tim Barry (great guy by the way) he pointed us in the direction of a molder and designer. He also took our STL files, and modified them to fit into line of draft (which he quite good at). So in America, there is a small shop called JB precision in MA, has a reputation for good EDM work (has done sprues for this). Secondary prospect is Beratek industries, who not only can do EDM, but shipping, packing and assembly of products. Third option is a logistics option, called Rex Plastics in WA state. Accurate EDM there as well.

Top 2= Beratek and JB

Based on what I saw quote wise in China vs USA, the long term option for a MUD design made more sense in the US. That in light of tariffs, we may have added costs sticking to China. Though we do have a pewter molding company with molds of our pewter designs ready, as they have been excellent to work with. Rising Chance on Alibaba.

Since we have the design done, we just have to have one of the three companies above replicate the work. MUD molds are fairly universal, and the cost savings are mainly reflected in the fact that you can purchase equipment to go with the tooled half of the project, and use it in a similar manner to a traditional mold. Traditional molds cost more, offer more shots, and more flexibility in cavity options. We were unsure how big the project would take us, so 25,000 shots seemed like a fair estimate. We still need to make a few more sprue frames (hence kickstarter). We are assessing the differences of costs vs the experience and equipment, and coming to a final decision soon. Logistically Beratek and Rex can eliminate packing needs and distribution to shipbob, but JB has already done the stuff.


http://precisetechnologies.com/ took care of the MUD mold layout.


We wanted to do it all in one go, but we came into the reality of the situation, and the least we could do was prove the concept was viable.

So here is the witch about this, it is hard to find a sculptor who is also familiar with line of draft. All sculptors I worked with or talked to use zbrush/maya. Tim, for example, uses freeform magic, which is a CAD and sculpting software. The software is easily 7k, and a haptic device another few k. After talking with a victrix sculptor, I found out that the molding companies will usually have someone do that on behalf of the sculptors. So for anyone interested, take into consideration you may have to pay one to sculpt, one to revise, another to design, and other to mold.

Great info there mate, thanks!

Wargames Factory are actually their own production and casting house now, they came about due to the debacle of the Torn Armour kickstarter. Reason I asked was because I am pretty sure Tim done a lot of the sculpting for both Defiance and WGF.

Tim did, but after the director for Defiance pulled his crap with the kickstarter (Tim, and even the mold designers) were never paid. He went freelance since. Looked up the business, and found out that Tony (tonney?) still has the entity alive, but has multiple years of unpaid business taxes as well. I don' t think he has a snow balls chance of coming back. Tim is very vocal about his work though, loves to chat, need to have a beer with him at some point.

Would really like to avoid defiance backlash if possible, one man is really to blame.

That aside, we have a few more bracing swords.


Seem like replicas, but we did a line up of overhand, bracing and downward holding weapons. More poses, more options.

Nice, are you going for any two handed ones as well?

And yeah totally get you on avoiding anything with that whole gakfest, however the casting company in China took over the name and still produce (or actually produce) as they do the plastics for Wyrd and Kingdom Death. Was just an idle thought.

 ingtaer wrote:
Nice, are you going for any two handed ones as well?

And yeah totally get you on avoiding anything with that whole gakfest, however the casting company in China took over the name and still produce (or actually produce) as they do the plastics for Wyrd and Kingdom Death. Was just an idle thought.

Probably did. After hearing about the investor deals, glad they at least did something productive from it.


And of course, fauns without two handed weapons is asking for a bruising from the beastmen players.


We have a two handed falx and battleaxe for the neutral poses. We are actually open to ideas as we will be adding to the mix once kickstarter hits. People want banners, more heads, more torsos, more actionable poses. Never a dull day (except waiting in between big project milestones, those suck bad, which is why you can get carried away with side projects, art, and more add ons.

That is a tasty Falx, a whole unit with them would look killer.

Other than the command options (fancy weapon, banner and musician) I cant say as I have an opinion on extras bar not getting carried away! Personally I prefer cleaner lines on models and so don't use extra pouches and gubbins but I am sure lots of people will ask for them.
One sees in a lot of campaigns that creators get pushed into adding more stuff, more alternates, more options, more models etc. and then backers get annoyed when for some bizarre reason the project gets delayed.
Who would have thought that the extra stuff asked for takes time to produce?
I would have to go back through the thread and check but I seem to remember that there was significant options already (hand weapons, shields, bows, spears, javelins and 2 handed weapons?) which seems like plenty. Is the stretch goal stuff an added sprue or resin/metal parts?

Falx does indeed look very nice. Actually tempted to start an AoS beastmen (or whatever they are called now) force, just so I can do something with these models.

 ingtaer wrote:
That is a tasty Falx, a whole unit with them would look killer.

Other than the command options (fancy weapon, banner and musician) I cant say as I have an opinion on extras bar not getting carried away! Personally I prefer cleaner lines on models and so don't use extra pouches and gubbins but I am sure lots of people will ask for them.
One sees in a lot of campaigns that creators get pushed into adding more stuff, more alternates, more options, more models etc. and then backers get annoyed when for some bizarre reason the project gets delayed.
Who would have thought that the extra stuff asked for takes time to produce?
I would have to go back through the thread and check but I seem to remember that there was significant options already (hand weapons, shields, bows, spears, javelins and 2 handed weapons?) which seems like plenty. Is the stretch goal stuff an added sprue or resin/metal parts?

If we go overboard, I can see it taking a lot longer. Sculpting for each item takes time (our whole batch for the fauns was 6 months from one sculptor). We then need to have it refined by Tim. Which takes times because we are not his only client. Then we have to wait for designs. Before you know it, half a year has passed and you got yourself mad folks.


Not to mention cost. It costs around 5-7k to design the mold to go with the sprue and calibrate it for use. Each arm, body $150-$200, revising another $100-$200 per part. 10k easily.


Now....if you did just sculpts, and wanted to add pewter kits to supplement desires. That is much much more feasible. You're mainly worried about sculpting and 3D printing costs. But not everyone digs pewter with plastic, even though it would be faster to set up.

We want to do a command sprue to add a banner, leader types, special heads, some new shields, unique weapons or weapon combination. But past that I would rather channel resources into the centaur and satyr sprues.



Enlisting up to three sculptors this go. Provided Tim has some free time for a few special add ons.

Yeah pewter and plastic don't mix that well in most cases, it should be fine for bits like heads but pewter arms and larger items would probably just break off very easily especially considering how thin the models are.

Personally I would be happy with a minimal kickstarter of just one or two kits such as the fauns and centaurs seeing as they use a lot of the same sprues. An all pewter commander model could be a good idea though if you wanted to go that route?

I think it is great how much you are listening to everyone's input, it should result in a really awesome product!

 Commander Cain wrote:
Yeah pewter and plastic don't mix that well in most cases, it should be fine for bits like heads but pewter arms and larger items would probably just break off very easily especially considering how thin the models are.

Personally I would be happy with a minimal kickstarter of just one or two kits such as the fauns and centaurs seeing as they use a lot of the same sprues. An all pewter commander model could be a good idea though if you wanted to go that route?

I think it is great how much you are listening to everyone's input, it should result in a really awesome product!

May just have to do multiple rounds to get all of our wish lists taken care of. Just being able to focus strictly on fauns and centaurs would be awesome, since we already have minotaurs and shamans done. A unique commander would be very doable in pewter.

The worst thing about Pewter/Plastic hybrids is that the models like to flip over.

 StygianBeach wrote:
The worst thing about Pewter/Plastic hybrids is that the models like to flip over.

From my experience, the lighter the better. Unless you want to counter balance the weight of the model. On occasion, have used pennies. Some parts, like shields, can do in a pinch, or heads, small weapons, but metal banners would be troublesome. Biggest annoyance growing up was the full pewter blood thirster from yonder year. Could not stay together well enough.

Ah good old metal banners on a plastic body. I remember putting a coin under a Skaven (from around 2000) banner bearer and that was not enough, so i attached a second base to it's rear with a coin under that too.

 StygianBeach wrote:
Ah good old metal banners on a plastic body. I remember putting a coin under a Skaven (from around 2000) banner bearer and that was not enough, so i attached a second base to it's rear with a coin under that too.

Bulky metal usually is asking for trouble.


Nothing crazy on our end right now, 2D assembly of the mold for packaging for us is going on, then quotes matched to the best talents of the companies we want to employ. After having the first designed and tested, we have the frame work to repeat the process for the weapon and female portion of the sprues.

We should have 3D prints of the upgraded weapons to go with the body soon, and we nabbed our ungor to go along with the gor.

Kickstarter will narrow us down to Fauns and Centaurs for round 1. Faun shamans and minotaur will be available though.

Incoming 3D prints after the thickening request. Ruler confirmation for 34.5mm. No inverted arms this time, haha.

Those weapons look much more durable. Good move!

Bought two versions of the ungor to compare, to go with the Gor. The fauns should not be overly muscled, as GW had a different methodology and lore for the beastmen that explains their size (pecking size). Fauns were notably smaller in stature. Size is 34.5mm high. Trimmer muscles, longer legs.

They look really good, glad the thickening hasn't thrown the proportion out of whack. Looking forward to seeing them painted up.

For the kickstarter where are you going to place the Satyr? I gathered they are metal and already mastered? So that is going to be a stretch goal? Sorry for being nosey I am just interested to see how you are planning on mapping out the stretch goals!

 ingtaer wrote:
They look really good, glad the thickening hasn't thrown the proportion out of whack. Looking forward to seeing them painted up.

For the kickstarter where are you going to place the Satyr? I gathered they are metal and already mastered? So that is going to be a stretch goal? Sorry for being nosey I am just interested to see how you are planning on mapping out the stretch goals!

Tim was pretty good with it. He can modify the parts absent messing with scale. He has to isolate them in freeform.


Satyrs are currently sculpted up, but non-refined for plastic. So if need be, we could just 3D print and have them molded for pewter. I ideally wanted them to be in plastic, but gauging the timeline and resources, its sounding more practical at this moment to focus on fauns and centaurs, and if the pace is still good, we can make an assessment to go from there.



Here is the breakdown difference of satyrs in plastic vs pewter


Satyr STL-Done
3D prints $200

Mold $90


Plastic

Line of draft revision per part, plus XT conversion ($2000-$2500)

Design for five man sprue ($5000-$7000)

Mold (Mudset) maybe 8k-10k



Realisticly looking at round 1 kickstarter- Get fauns and centaurs done, this includes finished Minotaur, Male and Female shamans. If I did pewter, could include satyrs as set packs.


Based on wants of the backers, see if the second round interests focusing on each unit add on as its own stand alone kickstarter round.


Adding up all the costs, it would be ambitious to do everything in one go. But it could be done with a team of sculptors, and the designers in place.


And off subject:


Attached is a JPG of what molders see at 2D layout stage. I am afraid I cant show everything, but this should give you an idea.