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 Jidmah wrote:

 r_squared wrote:
Did you factor in morale? An opponent doesn't have to kill all 30 dead, just enough to wipe out any chance of passing morale. At strength 4 you need about 100 shots to kill enough to make a morale check devastating to the unit, that has both an invulnerable save and a kff. At strength 5 that drops to 70 shots. If he doesn't have those buffs, then strength 4 shots drop down to about 50 shots, and strength 5 down to about 40 shots. That's much more manageable for an army that can focus fire a unit a turn.

100 shots are 18.52 casualties, let's round that to 19. With ld 30 you borrowed from the mob you are next to, you have 11 boyz left. If no mob is nearby, but his warboss is, you have 8-10 boyz left. If the mob is on its own for some reason but he spends 2CP (which he should) he has 11 boyz left.
Worst case 8 boyz are plenty to hold an objective.
So, yes, I factored in moral. Since he had so much time to think everything over, there is no reason to lose more than d3 boyz to morale.

There's a lot of "what ifs" there but as you admit, after one round of shooting there "may" be some Boyz left on an objective, but in this game 8 Boyz on an objective will not be there in the next round.

 Jidmah wrote:

 r_squared wrote:
Those kffs would need to be covering pretty much everywhere, and how many PainBoyz did he have? One for each blob? In a perfect storm it would take an overwhelming amount of firepower to kill those Boyz, but most of the time they may not have that cover, and a focused attack will finish them off, or render them useless very quickly.

Four mobs of boyz, two KFF, two pain boyz. There is no reason outside of playing error not to have both auras on all mobs for the first two turns.

Player error for such large blobs is still eminently possible here, and single mistakes are very costly as the maths shows. A single misplaced boy can remove the protections afforded for the entire mob. That in itself will slow things down as you ensure that every move complies with the stringent buff requirements.

 Jidmah wrote:

 r_squared wrote:
I think you're doing Ork players a diservice here. Keeping an army as large and fragile as orks within their buff zones can be tricky,

No it's not. All buffs but KFF can be conga-lined to. KFF is a huge area and either you decide to leave that area or you decide to stay in it. Everything else just sitting down models within 9".

30 Boyz, even squashed together is also a huge area, scenery and objective spread means that you're only going to enjoy that protection some of the time. Any decent opponent will ensure they can exploit the least protected mob. You make it sound so easy, and it's very much not so at all. Again, you're doing all or players a disservice by belittling the effort they have to put in to ensure that the limited amounts of protections we enjoy can continue to be used.

 Jidmah wrote:

 r_squared wrote:
and keeping tankbustas alive long enough to get in range and be of use is an art form.

Art? Hardly. Put them out of LOS or assume they will get shot. Anything else is your opponent's choice. And since they just shoot 24" from inside their transport, any rhino with melee troops inside is more difficult to operate.

My tankbustas in their trucks are a high priority threat to my opponents and are immediately targeted by any anti tank to reveal the delicious squishy insides. My Neutron lasers would wipe out tankbustas the second they popped anywhere near LOS. Why waste good lascannon and plasma shots on boyz? Every army can deal with trucks simply and quickly meaning that these small mobz of vulnerable bustas will most likely get splattered well before they get within 24".

 Jidmah wrote:

 r_squared wrote:
What is wrong with exploiting the rules to win?

Game rules? No. Event rules? Yes.

Did he break any of those rules?

 Jidmah wrote:

 r_squared wrote:
This is supposed to be a competitive tournament, not a fething tea party. Dress it up however you like but the simple answer is this guy did not break any rules, he played the game as it is laid out and he won. People on here are salty because they don't like how he won, well, I'm afraid that tough gak really.

So you also think that bribing every one of your opponent to concede would be ok as well? Because there are no rules against that either.
Before you cry about false analogies - this was an actual problem in MtG tournaments. People would just talk to their four opponent and offer them some part of the prize - since most of them had no chance at placing high, many agreed, resulting in some people going 4-0 and winning the tournament with every match being conceded to them.
Though I give to you that he still won the thing, but not fair and square at all. It's the fault of the TO's really. He should just have been DQ'ed after being told multiple times to play faster.

But here's the thing, maybe they should, but perhaps they didn't because he didn't actually deliberately slow play? There's lots of accusations, and many are determined to demonise him for some how"stealing" his victories by not playing fair, but the TO's let him carry on, and if they felt he was doing something wrong then they would have called him on it.

 Jidmah wrote:

 r_squared wrote:

Is it fair that other armies get all sorts of lovely bonuses whilst orks still have an index?

Two wrongs don't make a right.

I didn't say that it was unfair, because that statement is linked to what I said immediately afterwards here...

 Jidmah wrote:

 r_squared wrote:
Yes it is, because those are the rules as of the moment. Did this guy whinge that he only had an index army? No he didn't, he worked out a way to beat his opponents, and he did so fair and square.

You are mixing tournament and game rules. Tournament rules are not a rule set to find holes in. Tournament rules are not to be exploited or used to your advantage. Tournament rules are meant to reign people in that would not behave properly otherwise.
People that exploit loop holes in event rules are toxic to the community and need to be removed.

R_squared.
Are you for real.
Like seriously..... Your either mc slow play pretending not to be or your are deluded.
We're you there.... did you play him... did you see him play. Cos I did all 3!
You are wrong in so many ways and he obviously to every one with half an ounce of 40k knowledge ruined the game for everyone of his opponents.
He still won as I said before but he went about it terribly.

Scarecrow20 wrote:
R_squared.
Are you for real.
Like seriously..... Your either mc slow play pretending not to be or your are deluded.
We're you there.... did you play him... did you see him play. Cos I did all 3!
You are wrong in so many ways and he obviously to every one with half an ounce of 40k knowledge ruined the game for everyone of his opponents.
He still won as I said before but he went about it terribly.

Did you read my post, or are you just reacting to the fact that I'm not immediately condemning this guy? My last post was talking with Jidmah about the state of the army, and the difficulties involved in playing it.

Besides, this was your first post on the subject, what changed in the interim?

Scarecrow20 wrote:
I was at the tournament final and played the guy who won at the heats. He was a good opponenent and you can't fault his character or call him a cheat. Did he play to his armies strengths? Did he know he was aiming for a turn 2 win??? Only he can answer that and has to live with it. I do know that I would have tabled him in 4 or 5 turns but doing so was an impossibility with the whole set up (TIME), which as a player was massively frustrating for me as I knew I should / could win... but couldn't. I even stated at the start of the game i wanted a quick game and made my intentions clear but it just didnt happen due to so much stuff everywhere. As a result I've settled on understanding time as a resource as important as points and as a result it should be distributed evenly like points are. Bring on chess clocks and let's even the playing field.
Also take it easy guys. He won. Well done. It's all moulded plastic and dice at the end of the day. Let the hobby be the winner and buy some sodding chess clocks. Lol

 r_squared wrote:

Did you factor in morale? An opponent doesn't have to kill all 30 dead, just enough to wipe out any chance of passing morale. At strength 4 you need about 100 shots to kill enough to make a morale check devastating to the unit, that has both an invulnerable save and a kff. At strength 5 that drops to 70 shots. If he doesn't have those buffs, then strength 4 shots drop down to about 50 shots, and strength 5 down to about 40 shots. That's much more manageable for an army that can focus fire a unit a turn.

Until he has killed 2-3 units even if he kills 20 those orks aren't going anywhere. 20+d6 vs LD30. Yey. What a big deal. To have 50-50 chance whether you fail morale you need to kill 27 of them...Even chance to lose something is 25 casualties followed by 6.

Only units that actually care about morale are da jumped ones. Apart from that don't think I have failed morale with ork boyz. Grots yes as I don't have runtherds for 10 strong squads but once I get more grots the 30 grot squads will be only failing for 1-3 extra casualties. Regular boyz and first 2-3 turns morale isn't issue for an orks. Even da jump squads tend to die fully before losing stuff to morale.

Those kffs would need to be covering pretty much everywhere, and how many PainBoyz did he have? One for each blob? In a perfect storm it would take an overwhelming amount of firepower to kill those Boyz, but most of the time they may not have that cover, and a focused attack will finish them off, or render them useless very quickly.

1 painboy can cover 3 units minimum easily just like 1 warboss allows advance+charge for 3 minimum easily.

And btw if you play 2-3 turn game you aren't anymore playing 40k.

When one track doesn't lead to Mecca try another

I am wondering, did that Ork play have any Key units that if destroyed/removed would have cost him his game?
I've seen some of what was in his list but can't recall the whole thing and beyond buffing a few units I haven't a clue what he did on the tables.
I wish there were battle reports covering this guys 5 games to see just what his opponents were doing or not doing.
One thing that is interesting to me is the difference in the way people play in the UK and the US.

When one track doesn't lead to Mecca try another

 r_squared wrote:
There's a lot of "what ifs" there but as you admit, after one round of shooting there "may" be some Boyz left on an objective,

No "what ifs". As a matter of fact, 100 shots of S4 will not kill any more than 3 boyz through morale. There are 8-11 boyz left of that mob, period. There is no way to lose even a single additional boy to morale unless you chose not to spend those two CP because you feel like you need less boyz to win the game.

but in this game 8 Boyz on an objective will not be there in the next round.

Sure, if those 100 shots kill them, they will not be. However, you will lose some shots to overkill and the second unit of orks you start shooting will have 19 boyz left. You kill those during your third turn and the ork player still has 60 ork boyz securing objectives.
Then one of two things happen:
- The game goes to time and you lose
- You keep playing for two more turns and the ork player runs out of boyz

 Jidmah wrote:
Player error for such large blobs is still eminently possible here, and single mistakes are very costly as the maths shows. A single misplaced boy can remove the protections afforded for the entire mob. That in itself will slow things down as you ensure that every move complies with the stringent buff requirements.

Take a 9" measuring stick. Hold it in base contact with KFF mek. Place every boy in contact with that stick. It's not rocket science
The only "error" involved here is failing to measure 9" properly. There is no chance or thinking involved with having all orks of one mob within your KFF.

 Jidmah wrote:
30 Boyz, even squashed together is also a huge area,

No, they are not? A mob of boyz is 5x6 = 30 square inch. The area of a big mek's kff is about 300 square inch (pi x (9+.0.78)²). It's literally ten times larger.

scenery and objective spread means that you're only going to enjoy that protection some of the time.

Like, for the first two turns?

Any decent opponent will ensure they can exploit the least protected mob.

You have one buff character per two mobs each. There is no reason to have a single mob protected less than another.

You make it sound so easy, and it's very much not so at all.

It is, very much so. If you said it's difficult to have three or four mobs inside a KFF, I'd agree. But two mobs? Give me a break.

Again, you're doing all or players a disservice by belittling the effort they have to put in to ensure that the limited amounts of protections we enjoy can continue to be used.

Sorry for not handing out pats on the back for being able to measure properly. Green tide is not a difficult army to play, no matter how much you keep telling yourself that.

My tankbustas in their trucks are a high priority threat to my opponents and are immediately targeted by any anti tank to reveal the delicious squishy insides. My Neutron lasers would wipe out tankbustas the second they popped anywhere near LOS. Why waste good lascannon and plasma shots on boyz? Every army can deal with trucks simply and quickly meaning that these small mobz of vulnerable bustas will most likely get splattered well before they get within 24".

My point exactly. There is no effort involved on your side besides keeping them out LOS. Depending on terrain, this may take some time to check if you are truly out of LOS, but there is not a lot of thinking or or decision making involved there. Put them out of LOS or they die.

Did he break any of those rules?

You said exploit, not break. No moving goal posts.

But here's the thing, maybe they should, but perhaps they didn't because he didn't actually deliberately slow play? There's lots of accusations, and many are determined to demonise him for some how"stealing" his victories by not playing fair, but the TO's let him carry on, and if they felt he was doing something wrong then they would have called him on it.

Go read page 1. He was identified as a slow player and called out on it. He refused to play a turn despite being told to do so. I think it's quite clear that exploiting time was part of his game, which is an unsporting thing to do. The one thing that went wrong was that the judges didn't follow up on their warnings.
Also note slow play gets punished in other games that are much more successful than WH40k, whether it's deliberate or not. The only difference is that deliberate slow play is punished a lot harder.

Since you dodged the question, I ask you again: Do you think bribing your opponent is ok?

What loop hole did he exploit? He played the game as per the rules. it's tough for orks to kill their opponents as combat is a tricky beast to master, especially so if they have to use those melee focussed troops to grab objectives rather than getting stuck in so it's no surprise that he didn't kill more than a third of his opponents. Also slay the warlord is a tough ask for orks now. Most warlords are very effectively buried buff machines, and we have very few tools that can deal with that sort of thing. Even warbosses are a poor reflection of their previous terrifying might. There have been times when I've even considered leaving mine at home if it wasn't for waaagh!

Stop trying to justify toxic behavior with playing an ork army.
Especially as an ork player, you should aim to be the most sporting guy in the room.

You should be thanking this guy for showcasing how much work is needed to sort the army out to ensure that it is properly handled.

No, sorry. Instead, i will thank any of my opponents that manage to finishing their game on time.

Especially because it's a weaker codex army that has been historically nerfed horribly going up against soup and re-roll filth.

Stop trying to justify toxic behavior with playing an ork army.

The fact that he turned up to a tournament at all with a mono army index list should demonstrate that he was probably the most sporting plater there.

Stop trying to justify toxic behavior with playing an ork army.

You don't get a free pass for being an unsporting jerk because you brought a weak army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 warhead01 wrote:
I am wondering, did that Ork play have any Key units that if destroyed/removed would have cost him his game?

The army he played is just his version of a green tide. You defeat it by killing most or all of the boyz, which is usually doable over 5 turns.
The KMK and tank bustaz are there to destroy stuff that can take objectives or kill boyz well. Even if you destroy all of them, as long as he has enough boyz at the end of the game, he has a chance to win.
The biggest linchpins are probably the characters, but without snipers there is little you can do about them.

 warhead01 wrote:
I am wondering, did that Ork play have any Key units that if destroyed/removed would have cost him his game?
I've seen some of what was in his list but can't recall the whole thing and beyond buffing a few units I haven't a clue what he did on the tables.
I wish there were battle reports covering this guys 5 games to see just what his opponents were doing or not doing.
One thing that is interesting to me is the difference in the way people play in the UK and the US.

Pain boys and forcefield buffs orks to make them tougher. 120 dudes sit on objectives and hope the game ends before they die.
That is literally the strategy, there is no big secret or hidden way to do it.

You can kill the Big guns/tank busta's shooting you but then your not killing boys. You can try to assassinate the characters but then you still need to kill the boys.
If you can kill the boys quick enough you can pass him on objectives. But you won't because your not getting past turn 3.

The list isnt doing great in the US because ITC missions give little points for objectives and lots for secondaries which he won't score.

Christ you're tiresome. I didn't want to bore the gak out of everyone by dissecting every single line of your post, I prefer to have a reasonable and mature discussion without resorting to name calling, but as you're accusing me of acting like a jerk, feth it I will.

 Jidmah wrote:

 r_squared wrote:
There's a lot of "what ifs" there but as you admit, after one round of shooting there "may" be some Boyz left on an objective,

No "what ifs". As a matter of fact, 100 shots of S4 will not kill any more than 3 boyz through morale. There are 8-11 boyz left of that mob, period. There is no way to lose even a single additional boy to morale unless you chose not to spend those two CP because you feel like you need less boyz to win the game.

What if you don't have those 2 command points? Or are saving them as they are your only source of re-rolls? As I said in the next line, those handful of orks will not last long, especially if they're holding an objective.

 Jidmah wrote:

 r_squared wrote:

but in this game 8 Boyz on an objective will not be there in the next round.

Sure, if those 100 shots kill them, they will not be. However, you will lose some shots to overkill and the second unit of orks you start shooting will have 19 boyz left. You kill those during your third turn and the ork player still has 60 ork boyz securing objectives.
Then one of two things happen:
- The game goes to time and you lose
- You keep playing for two more turns and the ork player runs out of boyz

Split fire? Assault? Psychic powers and mortal wounds? Those boys left will only need a handful to go down as with a ld of 6 they're almost certainly going to run. You've focused only on shooting, but there plenty of ways to shift those Boyz and carry on hammering some more.

 Jidmah wrote:

 r_squared wrote:
Player error for such large blobs is still eminently possible here, and single mistakes are very costly as the maths shows. A single misplaced boy can remove the protections afforded for the entire mob. That in itself will slow things down as you ensure that every move complies with the stringent buff requirements.

Take a 9" measuring stick. Hold it in base contact with KFF mek. Place every boy in contact with that stick. It's not rocket science
The only "error" involved here is failing to measure 9" properly. There is no chance or thinking involved with having all orks of one mob within your KFF.

There is no point in arguing with you. Goodbye.

Wow. Lol
This guy must be an insurance sales man or something. He actually believes all this.

Lots of people play Orks (madness, but there you go).
They don't go to tournaments and then take up 2+ hours to play out their 2-3 turns.

Tyel wrote:
Lots of people play Orks (madness, but there you go).
They don't go to tournaments and then take up 2+ hours to play out their 2-3 turns.

And none of those players win

 Marklarr wrote:

Tyel wrote:
Lots of people play Orks (madness, but there you go).
They don't go to tournaments and then take up 2+ hours to play out their 2-3 turns.

And none of those players win

Per Blood of Kittens, orks have more Top 3 placings then the following factions. (as of May 9th)

Tau
Death Guard
Sisters of Battle
Non-UM Codex Marines
Grey Knights
Craftworld Eldar
Blood Angels
Genestealers
Assassinorum
Mechanicus
Knights
Space Wolves
Custodes
Dark Angels

 djones520 wrote:

 Marklarr wrote:

Tyel wrote:
Lots of people play Orks (madness, but there you go).
They don't go to tournaments and then take up 2+ hours to play out their 2-3 turns.

And none of those players win

Per Blood of Kittens, orks have more Top 3 placings then the following factions. (as of May 9th)

Tau
Death Guard
Sisters of Battle
Non-UM Codex Marines
Grey Knights
Craftworld Eldar
Blood Angels
Genestealers
Assassinorum
Mechanicus
Knights
Space Wolves
Custodes
Dark Angels

Top 3 in what though? 8-16 person local tournaments? because in real events like LVO orkz aren't even finishing in the top 50.

Well, they took 3rd place at the March Madness 5 Major Tournament. 1st place at the Wet Coast GT. 2nd at the Rampager GT. Warzone Atlanta, which had 110 participants, it took 2nd.

Just a sampling of the wins, so yeah, orks are placing high, in big events. Just because no one brought them to LVO doesn't mean they aren't capable of competing to a high level.

 r_squared wrote:

What if you don't have those 2 command points? Or are saving them as they are your only source of re-rolls? As I said in the next line, those handful of orks will not last long, especially if they're holding an objective.

Ork army is quaranteed to have 8 CP's minimum. 3 turn game. 3xmorale CP=6. That's more than enough. In 2-3 turn game that ork army is aiming to play CP's aren't going to run out. Especially as he doesn't really need CP for rerolls when he for example isn't planning of killing anything so rerolling to help kill stuff isn't worth it. Holding troops alive is.

Though then again to get even chance of morale casualties require 25 casualties minimum against LD30.

Split fire? Assault? Psychic powers and mortal wounds? Those boys left will only need a handful to go down as with a ld of 6 they're almost certainly going to run. You've focused only on shooting, but there plenty of ways to shift those Boyz and carry on hammering some more.

LD6? Boyz have LD30. Especially in 2-3 turn game. IF you don't have LD30 you have played it piss poorly.

The pain boy is a modest buff from a weak character highly susceptible to sniper fire.

Of course snipers not being generally that useful means you are unlikely to run against one as not many go to tournament list tailoring against orks who are never winning tournament without slow playing 2-3 turn games.

So, your answer is to hide my expensive and squishy anti-armour unit out of sight for the whole game? Have a word with yourself. How are they going to be useful tucked away all of the game?

OF course in 2-3 turn game they are only really needed for that 1 round.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tyel wrote:
Lots of people play Orks (madness, but there you go).
They don't go to tournaments and then take up 2+ hours to play out their 2-3 turns.

Yes. And that's why they get blown out of table on turns 4-5 and thus don't win tournaments.

Well made gun line will easily wipe floor with ~150-170 ork infantry in 4 turns. It's easily seen pattern where ork can hold up for about 3 turns maybe even leading on objectives and then running out of boyz(and generally not killing much of enemy) just collapses.

 Jidmah wrote:


Nonsense. Earlier this year I had a game where I fielded 4000 points of orks. We had limited time per turn so we could get the game finished in one afternoon. We had 45 minutes for the first two turns, 30 minutes for all following turns.
When time was up, you finished your current phase, but after that were not allowed to make any active decisions during the rest of your turn (no charging, shooting, casting powers or moving, no selecting units to fight)

Well, you can speedplay chess too.

You can also move your first pawn and then wait 75 years for your opponent to die of old age.