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Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




If there were more viable indirect fire weapons, that list would get autotabled too often to be viable. But IG has a monopoly on those. Because reasons.
   
Made in us
Foolproof Falcon Pilot



california

So many people calling eldar cancer, then in the same sentence praising the knight list
   
Made in us
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer




Tampa, FL

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
So many people calling eldar cancer, then in the same sentence praising the knight list


The Eldar list was cancer because it had 7 flyers and 18 scatbikes.

The Knight list was mostly guard and flavorful guard, lots of infantry not Loyal 32 with a granted OP knight in support.

that's like night and day.

- Wayne
Formerly WayneTheGame 
   
Made in gb
Ork-Hunting Inquisitorial Xenokiller





What's wrong with the winning list?

Are we at the stage where people are suggesting that 1400 points of Imperial Guard and 1 knight is "cancer"???

it's not even "soup". It's just 1 allied detachment.

That's pure nonsense.

TO of Death Before Dishonour - A Warhammer 40k Tournament with a focus on great battles between well painted, thematic armies on tables with full terrain.

Read the blog at:
https://deathbeforedishonour.co.uk/blog 
   
Made in us
Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine





 Silentz wrote:
What's wrong with the winning list?

Are we at the stage where people are suggesting that 1400 points of Imperial Guard and 1 knight is "cancer"???

it's not even "soup". It's just 1 allied detachment.

That's pure nonsense.


Increase the cost of Guardsmen by 1ppm and the Castellan by ~100 or so and suddenly that Custodes detachment you seem to be forgetting is not the same, possibly not even there and then the list plays quite differently I suspect.

"In relating the circumstances which have led to my confinement in this refuge for the demented, I am aware that my present position will create a natural doubt of the authenticity of my narrative."  
   
Made in us
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer




Tampa, FL

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:
 Silentz wrote:
What's wrong with the winning list?

Are we at the stage where people are suggesting that 1400 points of Imperial Guard and 1 knight is "cancer"???

it's not even "soup". It's just 1 allied detachment.

That's pure nonsense.


Increase the cost of Guardsmen by 1ppm and the Castellan by ~100 or so and suddenly that Custodes detachment you seem to be forgetting is not the same, possibly not even there and then the list plays quite differently I suspect.


Wait, wasn't the custodes the other guard list, not the winning list? There were two. One was all Catachan with a Castellan, one was Valhallan I think with a bunch of tank commanders, 2 dawneagles + Trajann and a Castellan.

I thought the winner was the one with basically mono guard + Knight.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/11 16:10:54


- Wayne
Formerly WayneTheGame 
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Silentz wrote:
What's wrong with the winning list?

Are we at the stage where people are suggesting that 1400 points of Imperial Guard and 1 knight is "cancer"???

it's not even "soup". It's just 1 allied detachment.

That's pure nonsense.

Well it beats eldar, so it seems. Haven't you notice how eldar player praised the cpt smash nerf, and how castellans are suppose to be the worse thing ever, but when someone brings up dual spears, reapers or multi flyer lists they get the not-all-eldar talk?
   
Made in gb
Scouting Shade





Karol wrote:
 Silentz wrote:
What's wrong with the winning list?

Are we at the stage where people are suggesting that 1400 points of Imperial Guard and 1 knight is "cancer"???

it's not even "soup". It's just 1 allied detachment.

That's pure nonsense.

Well it beats eldar, so it seems. Haven't you notice how eldar player praised the cpt smash nerf, and how castellans are suppose to be the worse thing ever, but when someone brings up dual spears, reapers or multi flyer lists they get the not-all-eldar talk?


Eh, I'm an Aeldari player and I'd be very happy for them to get some nerfs. There's a lot of undercosted stuff in the factions and Soulburst is still game breaking.

That doesn't mean the Guard/Knight list doesn't also need nerfs.
   
Made in gb
Ork-Hunting Inquisitorial Xenokiller





 TwinPoleTheory wrote:
 Silentz wrote:
What's wrong with the winning list?

Are we at the stage where people are suggesting that 1400 points of Imperial Guard and 1 knight is "cancer"???

it's not even "soup". It's just 1 allied detachment.

That's pure nonsense.


Increase the cost of Guardsmen by 1ppm and the Castellan by ~100 or so and suddenly that Custodes detachment you seem to be forgetting is not the same, possibly not even there and then the list plays quite differently I suspect.

There's no custodes detachment. You're just talking about a different list. This is Brandon's: https://imgur.com/a/QefIDNJ

This list is like... 40k how the designers would want you to play it. It's legit.

The Castellan is certainly a strong unit at the moment which offers a lot of durability and firepower for 600 points, but it's not wildly OP. I think the mistake is the 3+ invulnerable save.

TO of Death Before Dishonour - A Warhammer 40k Tournament with a focus on great battles between well painted, thematic armies on tables with full terrain.

Read the blog at:
https://deathbeforedishonour.co.uk/blog 
   
Made in ca
Fresh-Faced New User




Tournament organizers can set their own rules. If people wanted to "fix" soup the TO could make special restrictions to lists.

The TOs don't want to to do this, however. They want to keep attracting the "pro" 40K players to the money making events.

LOL

And the game gets "balanced" over tournament results and lists. What a joke.
   
Made in us
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer




Tampa, FL

 Silentz wrote:
 TwinPoleTheory wrote:
 Silentz wrote:
What's wrong with the winning list?

Are we at the stage where people are suggesting that 1400 points of Imperial Guard and 1 knight is "cancer"???

it's not even "soup". It's just 1 allied detachment.

That's pure nonsense.


Increase the cost of Guardsmen by 1ppm and the Castellan by ~100 or so and suddenly that Custodes detachment you seem to be forgetting is not the same, possibly not even there and then the list plays quite differently I suspect.

There's no custodes detachment. You're just talking about a different list. This is Brandon's: https://imgur.com/a/QefIDNJ

This list is like... 40k how the designers would want you to play it. It's legit.

The Castellan is certainly a strong unit at the moment which offers a lot of durability and firepower for 600 points, but it's not wildly OP. I think the mistake is the 3+ invulnerable save.


Yeah, that was the list I thought won. Sure the Castellan is too good, but that list is legit and even somewhat fluffy. Hellhounds and Mortars with Catachan? Rough Riders that I hope to god were converted somehow as scouts? A priest to keep the troops in line? About my only complaint would be that the guard squads are all barebones, no special weapon or anything, but even that's not too far-fetched.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/11 16:23:25


- Wayne
Formerly WayneTheGame 
   
Made in us
Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine





Wayniac wrote:
Yeah, that was the list I thought won. Sure the Castellan is too good, but that list is legit and even somewhat fluffy. Hellhounds and Mortars with Catachan? Rough Riders that I hope to god were converted somehow as scouts? A priest to keep the troops in line? About my only complaint would be that the guard squads are all barebones, no special weapon or anything, but even that's not too far-fetched.


Yep, sorry, that was the #3 list. Anyhow, I don't need to contribute to the 'discussion' about the abuse of undercosted Imperial units, there are many others who will carry the torch.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/11 16:27:28


"In relating the circumstances which have led to my confinement in this refuge for the demented, I am aware that my present position will create a natural doubt of the authenticity of my narrative."  
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





"Because its bs vs everyone else. You don't need it vs BA, but still get it vs me."

It's not BS versus my Marines. It's only BS versus lists centered around a 500pt+ unit.

Against even a Gman Razorback list (which isn't all that good now), it's useful but not that useful. A single Razorback a turn dies maybe 33% faster? Not what I'd call BS.

Doom *only* doubles firepower vs a single unit only when you're wounding on 6s. Any other case, it's less than double. And, it can only impact at most 1 unit per turn. Against many lists, that can mean less than a Smite.

Doom does well against most lists, but only reaches "BS"-level when facing BS lists - specifically ones that pump more than a quarter of their points into a single "unkillable" thing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You're talking about BA. The army with HQs that can one-round a Knight solo. An HQ making a single target die faster, but less than twice as fast, doesn't seem so OP in comparison.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/11 17:13:56


 
   
Made in us
Perfect Shot Dark Angels Predator Pilot





Eastern CT

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Based on the results of this very tournament it would seem that SM already compete with the top armies without a bolter rule crutch....


If the mono-SM army needed Guilliman to get there, then no I wouldn't say that at all. I'd say mono-SM underperforms without an undercosted crutch unit.

Check out my brand new 40K/gaming blog: Crafting Cave Games 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




Good luck killing anything with a ba hq after the fly nerf. Go try it. I will take your eldar and wipe every ba list in existence like helpless children. And you want to talk about the double nerfed capt smash.

Doom is bs vs against every list because you are getting the benefits of gmoney without paying for gmoney.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/02/11 17:30:22


 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




 TwinPoleTheory wrote:
 Silentz wrote:
What's wrong with the winning list?

Are we at the stage where people are suggesting that 1400 points of Imperial Guard and 1 knight is "cancer"???

it's not even "soup". It's just 1 allied detachment.

That's pure nonsense.


Increase the cost of Guardsmen by 1ppm and the Castellan by ~100 or so and suddenly that Custodes detachment you seem to be forgetting is not the same, possibly not even there and then the list plays quite differently I suspect.


Sheesh.

If the Castellen is so good why isn't the Chaos one smashing face?

Or do you just not understand the platform is fine, and there needs to be a change in funneling 15 CP through a platform designed to have maybe 9 through it?
   
Made in us
Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine





Reemule wrote:
Sheesh.

If the Castellen is so good why isn't the Chaos one smashing face?

Or do you just not understand the platform is fine, and there needs to be a change in funneling 15 CP through a platform designed to have maybe 9 through it?


I would suspect it's because the rules supporting it are a 2 page PDF and two stratagems, but that's just why I don't bother with getting one. There's also the fact that it has almost no synergy with any of the Chaos codices.

"In relating the circumstances which have led to my confinement in this refuge for the demented, I am aware that my present position will create a natural doubt of the authenticity of my narrative."  
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Then why are you trying to Nerf the Castellan, that you just said isn't the issue, versus calling out the issue, the CP factory and Stratagems that make it OP?

   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Bharring wrote:
"Fixing Doom is super simple. "
Because Castellian-Loyal32-Beatstick lists have it too rough. Lets nuke the thing that hurts them the *most*.

Why do people want to nerf one of the few combos that can actually threaten to remove a Knight?

It's a matter of how psyker bonuses work now. You get to cast something like that and all your allies benefit.

I don't think that changing it for just Craftworld getting the bonus is asking too much, is it?

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine





Reemule wrote:
Then why are you trying to Nerf the Castellan, that you just said isn't the issue, versus calling out the issue, the CP factory and Stratagems that make it OP?


I'm really considering not engaging in this obviously disingenuous argument. I didn't say it wasn't the issue, I just said that the Chaos version doesn't have the supporting mechanisms in place to truly make it shine.

So here's my very basic statement, in small words. The Castellan is too cheap for what it can do, both for Chaos and Imperium, it just happens to be much better for Imperium than it is for Chaos.

"In relating the circumstances which have led to my confinement in this refuge for the demented, I am aware that my present position will create a natural doubt of the authenticity of my narrative."  
   
Made in nl
Longtime Dakkanaut





Why doesn't Chaos use the Castellan?
Because they have Mortarion and Magnus and don't need to soup in a Castellan to fight 'big stuff'.
   
Made in ca
Wicked Wych With a Whip




I don't play Choas. Since we seem to be arguing about the big knight And how it is super unbalanced once it has infantry support; how come there were no renegade knights at the top tables?

They can take cheep cultists for screens and scoring right? The can take deamon princes as Smashfuckers, maybe not as good as the Golden bikers but still they can put something in that role. And honestly the cheep troops and big knight seem to be the killer combo.

What does the imperium have that chaos doesn't?

   
Made in nl
Longtime Dakkanaut





Double post, please ignore

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/11 18:11:33


 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Headlss wrote:
I don't play Choas. Since we seem to be arguing about the big knight And how it is super unbalanced once it has infantry support; how come there were no renegade knights at the top tables?

They can take cheep cultists for screens and scoring right? The can take deamon princes as Smashfuckers, maybe not as good as the Golden bikers but still they can put something in that role. And honestly the cheep troops and big knight seem to be the killer combo.

What does the imperium have that chaos doesn't?



This. Chaos has everything to replicate the winning list... except 15 CP to funnel through the Castellan with Raven Strat. But no doubt Chaos players just don't take it cause its not good enough..
   
Made in us
Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine





 Ordana wrote:
Double post, please ignore


Also 2 stratagems and 1 relic as opposed to 2 pages of stratagems and 2 pages of relics.

"In relating the circumstances which have led to my confinement in this refuge for the demented, I am aware that my present position will create a natural doubt of the authenticity of my narrative."  
   
Made in nl
Longtime Dakkanaut





 TwinPoleTheory wrote:
 Ordana wrote:
Double post, please ignore


Also 2 stratagems and 1 relic as opposed to 2 pages of stratagems and 2 pages of relics.
The relics and stratagems of the Guard add basically nothing to do the list. Iron Bulwark, rotate Ion shields and Cawl's Wrath are much more impactfull obviously.
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Yes, but those are CP and Stratagems...

Change the CP and Change the Stratagem. That is right and smart.

And yet, here you keep hearing that tired refrain from people like TwinPoleTheory.
   
Made in nl
Longtime Dakkanaut





i think i've also decided that the Ynnari flyer list basically embodies the problems I have with ITC. It has almost no board presence and can't play objectives. It just kills stuff and that's it.
Put it in a more European style tournament like ETC and its going to flounder as its unable to score points and hold objectives.
   
Made in us
Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine





 Ordana wrote:
The relics and stratagems of the Guard add basically nothing to do the list. Iron Bulwark, rotate Ion shields and Cawl's Wrath are much more impactfull obviously.


I tend to agree, without going and looking at my AM codex to confirm. However, the question was why Chaos doesn't use the Castellan, it's a combination of the Chaos Castellan being a pale shadow of the Imperial one and the fact that Chaos has other super-heavy options with better synergy, even if they ultimately tend to come up short against AM/Castellan lists.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/11 18:28:07


"In relating the circumstances which have led to my confinement in this refuge for the demented, I am aware that my present position will create a natural doubt of the authenticity of my narrative."  
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




 Silentz wrote:
 TwinPoleTheory wrote:
 Silentz wrote:
What's wrong with the winning list?

Are we at the stage where people are suggesting that 1400 points of Imperial Guard and 1 knight is "cancer"???

it's not even "soup". It's just 1 allied detachment.

That's pure nonsense.


Increase the cost of Guardsmen by 1ppm and the Castellan by ~100 or so and suddenly that Custodes detachment you seem to be forgetting is not the same, possibly not even there and then the list plays quite differently I suspect.

There's no custodes detachment. You're just talking about a different list. This is Brandon's: https://imgur.com/a/QefIDNJ

This list is like... 40k how the designers would want you to play it. It's legit.

The Castellan is certainly a strong unit at the moment which offers a lot of durability and firepower for 600 points, but it's not wildly OP. I think the mistake is the 3+ invulnerable save.


The castellan is wildly OP because it has access to three plus invuls, the ability to ignore degradation, warlord traits and relics. That's how you make a unit OP. It's the same reason Ynnarri gak is OP, because the ability to shoot or move or fight twice isn't statted into the units, so points efficient units become stupid when they can do their efficient thing twice. It's why the smash captain was OP. GW badly designed certain stratagems and powers.
   
 
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