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Made in us
Rotting Sorcerer of Nurgle





In My Lab

 Desubot wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Because not everyone feels identically?

No one has an issue with painting being central to how you enjoy the hobby, just don’t force your views on others.


This be reasonable and goes both ways.

Dont get mad at people denying you games because you didn't want to paint your army.

that seems to be where most of these threads stem from. someone hypothetically got burned by an store or event because that private entity decided to gate-keep their community with painting restrictions.
Yeah-I've literally had someone say "Oh, I only want to play against a painted army. Sorry," after we were almost about to have a game.

Was a bit annoying to me, but I get it. People have their preferences, and I ain't gonna knock them for that.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in dk
Stormin' Stompa





 Desubot wrote:

that seems to be where most of these threads stem from. someone hypothetically got burned by an store or event because that private entity decided to gate-keep their community with painting restrictions.


I have the opposite experience.
To me most of these threads seem to come from someone being told, that what THEY find important and "really crucial to the entire gaming experience" is just their opinion.

-------------------------------------------------------
"He died because he had no honor. He had no honor and the Emperor was watching."

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Made in us
Charging Dragon Prince





West Lafayette, IN

You know, with as rare as it is for me to squeeze in a game at current, I would hardly turn away a game with someone in the editions I play solely because of painted minis, and I'd assume the player would feel the same.

That being said, ideally I wouldn't drop an army on the table unless it was painted. We used to hold to that ideal solely because of taking pride in our armies. Then as I was building a force, one that I expanded faster than my painiting schedule allowed, people constantly asked me to run them as it was not an army played in the store very often. I capitulated, and I'm pretty sure I NEVER finished painting that army before I traded it off for a different project.

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For 4-6th WFB, 2-5th 40k, and similar timeframe gaming

Looking for dice from the new AOS boxed set and Dark Imperium on the cheap. Let me know if you can help.
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Its AoS, it doesn't have to make sense.
 
   
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Second Story Man




Astonished of Heck

Elbows wrote:
 Charistoph wrote:
If painted models are a requirement for you to play the game, maybe you should switch to playing X-Wing, Star Wars Armada, or AT-43, since you don't have to rely on your opponent's capacity for paining.

Or they can simply play people with painted models? That's far easier.

Which is why I suggested moving to a game where the chances of playing against unpainted models is nill.

Elbows wrote:The X-Wing suggestion is a bit silly, because that implies that the person's only interest is playing "A" game with painted miniatures. You may hate Star Wars. You may dislike X-Wing. You may have a grudge against FFG or some such. If you want to play 40K, suggesting another game makes little sense.

Good thing I mentioned something else, then. But seriously, if painted models are that important to you, your options are to offer to paint the other player's models or move to a system where going against painted models isn't a problem.

I'm pointing out that the painted models is the individual's demand.

Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
 
   
Made in se
Regular Dakkanaut




Good thing that there are areas in which painted armies is the standard so it doesnt matter if its 40k or X-wing if you want to play against painted models.

Unpainted models and armies are frowned upon around here. Badly painted due to lack of skill or work in progress painted armies on the other hand isnt frowned upon at all. You can have expectations of having painted armies and be welcoming at the same time.

Probably more pure 40k painter and Collectors than there are pure 40k gamers who dislike to paint out there so having the armies be painted makes it easier and more inviting for the painter to try to actually play with their models as well and not just have them sitting on a shelf. Good for the growth of the hobby and game both.
   
Made in us
Raging Rat Ogre





The Wastes of Krieg

Klickor wrote:
Good thing that there are areas in which painted armies is the standard so it doesnt matter if its 40k or X-wing if you want to play against painted models.

Unpainted models and armies are frowned upon around here. Badly painted due to lack of skill or work in progress painted armies on the other hand isnt frowned upon at all. You can have expectations of having painted armies and be welcoming at the same time.

Probably more pure 40k painter and Collectors than there are pure 40k gamers who dislike to paint out there so having the armies be painted makes it easier and more inviting for the painter to try to actually play with their models as well and not just have them sitting on a shelf. Good for the growth of the hobby and game both.


Around here people are just happy to be able to play games. The state of paint has no impact on our enjoyment.
   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord






Charistoph: You didn't really address the points I made? Someone shouldn't go play another game if they like the game they're playing...that makes no sense.

Likewise, your options are not: "offer to paint their army", or "move systems"...you simply...play people who actually paint their armies in the game you enjoy. That's a completely reasonable/common option. I enjoy that you seem to be trying to vilify people who have a different standard than you.

 
   
Made in us
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Right behind you.

 Just Tony wrote:
You know, with as rare as it is for me to squeeze in a game at current, I would hardly turn away a game with someone in the editions I play solely because of painted minis, and I'd assume the player would feel the same.

That being said, ideally I wouldn't drop an army on the table unless it was painted. We used to hold to that ideal solely because of taking pride in our armies.

I used to have the same dilemma, feeling like if I put stuff on the table and it wasn't painted--I was doing it wrong or just trying to throw stuff out there.

But then I started realizing that I wasn't hopping armies as quick as some of the locals were as they focused upon doing quick paints for their armies so they can play before dumping them for the next thing...mine are slowly getting built up, slowly getting painted, and the paintjobs look a bit more realistic compared to the drybrushed, shaded, and color primed ones I would see.


It was a huuuuuuuge gamechanger for me.
   
Made in us
Napoleonics Obsesser




MN

I did not paint my armies, because I did not have the time. Worse, I did not enjoy it.

Now that I am older, I enjoy painting more as a separation from my busy life. I still do not enjoy it, but I like the end product and I like decompressing and detaching from the stress of the world. I can focus on painting and the people with me easier.

Another thing that helped my painting is that I stopped trying to do it alone and isolated all the time. Instead, I paint with my family who are doing their own craft stuff. Now it is more of a family time activity, instead of taking time away from them.

Do you like Free Wargames?
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Second Story Man




Astonished of Heck

 Elbows wrote:
Charistoph: You didn't really address the points I made? Someone shouldn't go play another game if they like the game they're playing...that makes no sense.

Likewise, your options are not: "offer to paint their army", or "move systems"...you simply...play people who actually paint their armies in the game you enjoy. That's a completely reasonable/common option. I enjoy that you seem to be trying to vilify people who have a different standard than you.

Because your points are equally as sensible. Gating your games to being with only painted models would be akin to only playing games against armies you can win against, or only with people who have the same point tally as you, or will only play with the same tournament pack as you.

Mostly, I'm just pointing out that if painted models are so much of an issue, then you need to be equally active in making sure you can do so, removed - Rule #1

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/18 06:58:21


Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
 
   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord






 Charistoph wrote:
 Elbows wrote:
Charistoph: You didn't really address the points I made? Someone shouldn't go play another game if they like the game they're playing...that makes no sense.

Likewise, your options are not: "offer to paint their army", or "move systems"...you simply...play people who actually paint their armies in the game you enjoy. That's a completely reasonable/common option. I enjoy that you seem to be trying to vilify people who have a different standard than you.

Because your points are equally as sensible. Gating your games to being with only painted models would be akin to only playing games against armies you can win against, or only with people who have the same point tally as you, or will only play with the same tournament pack as you.

Mostly, I'm just pointing out that if painted models are so much of an issue, then you need to be equally active in making sure you can do so, removed - Rule #1


I'm not going to lie, that was a hard post to read. You need to work on explaining what you're trying to say. Try again?

I don't play in tournaments, or "tournament packs", etc. I don't even play 40K at the moment. I'm genuinely lost in what your last sentence is trying to say. Equally active in what? So if someone doesn't want to play with unpainted figures because they don't enjoy it, they're...whatever it is you tried to say in the second half?

You still haven't explained how playing a different game is a mandatory solution for people who enjoy playing with painted miniatures.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/02/18 06:58:38


 
   
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Because I can't prime right now, stupid British winter, you better believe once we hit the good times (all what, 20 good priming days we get a year...) I'll be painting plenty

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 Charistoph wrote:
Gating your games to being with only painted models would be akin to only playing games against armies you can win against


How?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/18 00:10:46


 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 Scott-S6 wrote:
And yet another thread is hijacked for Unit to ask for the same advice, receive the same answers and make the same excuses.

Oh my god I'm becoming martel.
Send help!

 
   
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Wicked Warp Spider






Ohh see the thread has finaly started to devolve into this old chestnut..

@ Foenixphate Im pretty sure I wrecked my Extractpr airbrush booth using cans in the house

God I cant wait to have proper dedicated airbrush space..
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AngryAngel80 wrote:
I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
 
   
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Second Story Man




Astonished of Heck

 Desubot wrote:
 Charistoph wrote:
Gating your games to being with only painted models would be akin to only playing games against armies you can win against

How?

I already gave my answer, finish reading the whole message.

Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
 
   
Made in au
Anti-Armour Swiss Guard






Newcastle, OZ

If the choice is between playing against unpainted or not playing a game for a while, I'll take the latter.

PLAYING the game is only one leg of a tripod, not the only leg of a monopod.

Painting and assembling are the other 2, and I'm quite happy to stick with those 2 while I wait.

I'm 50.
Old enough to know better, young enough to not give a ****.

That is not dead which can eternal lie ...

... and yet, with strange aeons, even death may die.
 
   
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The Wastes of Krieg

 chromedog wrote:
If the choice is between playing against unpainted or not playing a game for a while, I'll take the latter.

PLAYING the game is only one leg of a tripod, not the only leg of a monopod.

Painting and assembling are the other 2, and I'm quite happy to stick with those 2 while I wait.


So you’d rather do nothing then play against the only other guy in a store who has an army, but is unpainted? Seems kind of criminal to me.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 chromedog wrote:
If the choice is between playing against unpainted or not playing a game for a while, I'll take the latter.

PLAYING the game is only one leg of a tripod, not the only leg of a monopod.

Painting and assembling are the other 2, and I'm quite happy to stick with those 2 while I wait.


That seems like an odd choice for a number of reasons. I'm not sure too many would agree the 3 legs of the hobby are assembling, painting and playing for a start. Assembling and painting are pretty much always seen as the same thing by everyone I've ever met. Refusing to do one of the 3 legs as you call them also seems counterproductive. I get the need to have standards but refusing to play at all (i.e. take part in one of the supposedly 3 parts to the hobby) seems very much like cutting off your nose to spite your face.
   
Made in au
Dakka Veteran





Sydney, Australia

I do paint my models. Just slowly and very sporadically because I'm lazy. I have the bonus of owning a lot that is painted though, and playing with a group of people who all have tons of painted stuff so we can all have multiple options in any game we play unless it's brand new to us all

DC:90S++G+++MB+IPvsf17#++D++A+++/mWD409R+++T(Ot)DM+

I mainly play skirmish games, but am still fairly active with 40k. I play Arena Rex, Middle-Earth, Blood Bowl, Malifaux and The Other Side as well, but my main game is the Batman Miniatures Game.

My blog- https://fistfulofminiatures.blogspot.com/
My gaming Instagram- https://www.instagram.com/fistfulofminis/ 
   
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 chromedog wrote:
If the choice is between playing against unpainted or not playing a game for a while, I'll take the latter.

PLAYING the game is only one leg of a tripod, not the only leg of a monopod.

Painting and assembling are the other 2, and I'm quite happy to stick with those 2 while I wait.


Really?

You don't think; Models, Setting and Gameplay is a much more reasonable tripod?

-------------------------------------------------------
"He died because he had no honor. He had no honor and the Emperor was watching."

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Made in fi
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 Charistoph wrote:
 Elbows wrote:
Charistoph: You didn't really address the points I made? Someone shouldn't go play another game if they like the game they're playing...that makes no sense.

Likewise, your options are not: "offer to paint their army", or "move systems"...you simply...play people who actually paint their armies in the game you enjoy. That's a completely reasonable/common option. I enjoy that you seem to be trying to vilify people who have a different standard than you.

Because your points are equally as sensible. Gating your games to being with only painted models would be akin to only playing games against armies you can win against, or only with people who have the same point tally as you, or will only play with the same tournament pack as you.

Mostly, I'm just pointing out that if painted models are so much of an issue, then you need to be equally active in making sure you can do so, removed - Rule #1


You are 100% entitled to choose whom you play with you know? Nobody is forced to play game if they don't want to. So if somebody doesn't want to play against unpainted stuff a) he has every right to deny b) opponent sounds just entitled kid if he starts to complain opponent doesn't play vs him. Nobody is required to play vs anybody. Period.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Slipspace wrote:
 chromedog wrote:
If the choice is between playing against unpainted or not playing a game for a while, I'll take the latter.

PLAYING the game is only one leg of a tripod, not the only leg of a monopod.

Painting and assembling are the other 2, and I'm quite happy to stick with those 2 while I wait.


That seems like an odd choice for a number of reasons. I'm not sure too many would agree the 3 legs of the hobby are assembling, painting and playing for a start. Assembling and painting are pretty much always seen as the same thing by everyone I've ever met. Refusing to do one of the 3 legs as you call them also seems counterproductive. I get the need to have standards but refusing to play at all (i.e. take part in one of the supposedly 3 parts to the hobby) seems very much like cutting off your nose to spite your face.


So you should do something unfun rather than save your time and not do the unfun thing?

Weird. There's this saying "don't throw good money after bad". You aren't supposed to play if you don't find it fun just because there's game available that you don't enjoy.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/18 08:59:17


https://middleagedstrategybattlegamers.home.blog/2019/12/31/tneva82-december-moria/<- lotr painting blog

12 factions for Lord of The Rings
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5265 pts
5150 pts
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Charging Dragon Prince





West Lafayette, IN

tneva82 wrote:
 Charistoph wrote:
 Elbows wrote:
Charistoph: You didn't really address the points I made? Someone shouldn't go play another game if they like the game they're playing...that makes no sense.

Likewise, your options are not: "offer to paint their army", or "move systems"...you simply...play people who actually paint their armies in the game you enjoy. That's a completely reasonable/common option. I enjoy that you seem to be trying to vilify people who have a different standard than you.

Because your points are equally as sensible. Gating your games to being with only painted models would be akin to only playing games against armies you can win against, or only with people who have the same point tally as you, or will only play with the same tournament pack as you.

Mostly, I'm just pointing out that if painted models are so much of an issue, then you need to be equally active in making sure you can do so, removed - Rule #1


You are 100% entitled to choose whom you play with you know? Nobody is forced to play game if they don't want to. So if somebody doesn't want to play against unpainted stuff a) he has every right to deny b) opponent sounds just entitled kid if he starts to complain opponent doesn't play vs him. Nobody is required to play vs anybody. Period.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Slipspace wrote:
 chromedog wrote:
If the choice is between playing against unpainted or not playing a game for a while, I'll take the latter.

PLAYING the game is only one leg of a tripod, not the only leg of a monopod.

Painting and assembling are the other 2, and I'm quite happy to stick with those 2 while I wait.


That seems like an odd choice for a number of reasons. I'm not sure too many would agree the 3 legs of the hobby are assembling, painting and playing for a start. Assembling and painting are pretty much always seen as the same thing by everyone I've ever met. Refusing to do one of the 3 legs as you call them also seems counterproductive. I get the need to have standards but refusing to play at all (i.e. take part in one of the supposedly 3 parts to the hobby) seems very much like cutting off your nose to spite your face.


So you should do something unfun rather than save your time and not do the unfun thing?

Weird. There's this saying "don't throw good money after bad". You aren't supposed to play if you don't find it fun just because there's game available that you don't enjoy.


But... how does a few colors change the "fun" of the game? Does it somehow affect dice rolls or tactics?

This is so baffling to me...

www.classichammer.com

For 4-6th WFB, 2-5th 40k, and similar timeframe gaming

Looking for dice from the new AOS boxed set and Dark Imperium on the cheap. Let me know if you can help.
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Its AoS, it doesn't have to make sense.
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




tneva82 wrote:

Slipspace wrote:
 chromedog wrote:
If the choice is between playing against unpainted or not playing a game for a while, I'll take the latter.

PLAYING the game is only one leg of a tripod, not the only leg of a monopod.

Painting and assembling are the other 2, and I'm quite happy to stick with those 2 while I wait.


That seems like an odd choice for a number of reasons. I'm not sure too many would agree the 3 legs of the hobby are assembling, painting and playing for a start. Assembling and painting are pretty much always seen as the same thing by everyone I've ever met. Refusing to do one of the 3 legs as you call them also seems counterproductive. I get the need to have standards but refusing to play at all (i.e. take part in one of the supposedly 3 parts to the hobby) seems very much like cutting off your nose to spite your face.


So you should do something unfun rather than save your time and not do the unfun thing?

Weird. There's this saying "don't throw good money after bad". You aren't supposed to play if you don't find it fun just because there's game available that you don't enjoy.


I'm genuinely confused how people can find playing against unpainted armies unfun to the point they will refuse a game against them. Doubly so when the poster I replied to specifically said gaming was one part of the hobby as a whole and then said they wouldn't take part in that side of the hobby with someone who hadn't taken part in one of the other (rather arbitrarily designated) parts of the hobby. Like, I understand you'd prefer to play on a brilliantly modelled board with fantastic terrain against a well-painted army, and I think all gamers would probably prefer that as the pinnacle of the hobby, but I just can't understand a situation where someone says no to a game because the opponent hasn't painted their army, especially because the poster in question specifically said they'd wait and not play at all until such an opponent materialises. So if no such opponent exists in their area they just wouldn't play? Yeah, not too logical to me.
   
Made in us
Napoleonics Obsesser




MN

Depends on if you come to wargaming as a spectacle or as a game.

Many old school gamers got into wargaming for the "look" and "spectacle" of it all. That trumps gameplay even, since a game you play that does not have the right look and spectacle is not worth playing.

Many gamers got into it for the game and competition of it all. Therefore, it makes no sense to not play a game when one is on offer.

The two mindsets will never understand each other, because on the internet no one WANTS to understand each other. You score points by being willfully obtuse. I have seen the rules of the internet, so it is objective fact.*



* Warning: Post may or may not have objective facts in it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/18 14:49:33


Do you like Free Wargames?
http://bloodandspectacles.blogspot.com/ 
   
Made in se
Regular Dakkanaut




40k for me is mostly about the spectacle. I can play to teach or help a friend try new models but I prefer painted and thats why Im in it. Games like Warmachine or Blood Bowl is more for the gameplay but since its so few models I expect painted even more since it makes it look better and not having painted models a while in to the game just looks lazy. So even the games I play for the actual gameplay I want painted. Its just better that way and also usually makes it easier to see what is what and speeds up the game a bit as well.

Its not that unpainted makes the game actually worse but unless you play it soley for the rules and not at all for the background and good looking models it removes a large part of what makes the game fun for many.

Its like film. Black and white doesnt make the story worse or make the performance of the actors worse but I prefer it with beautiful colors in crisp definition with modern special effect thank you. You are welcome to have a retro film club and watch it in black and white but dont force me to join you. I rather go IMax with others than enjoy that even though its more effort/expensive. If you want to see a movie with me Im sorry but thats only gonna happen in color.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/02/18 16:05:23


 
   
Made in us
Courageous Questing Knight





Philadelphia

Like Klickor and Easy E said - the game is quite the visual.

I previously played quite a bit of 6-10mm Scale. My War of the Roses army isn't going to be unpainted. Imagine seas of metal minis in close rank and file engaging with other historical armies of white metal.


I do however agree with the post here that there is a time you shouldn't paint your minis. When a player is tournament playtesting a new list. I know a ton of local players who have hired services to paint untils that were terrible in events becuase they wrote the list before trying it out. This is extremely popular in Warmachine.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/18 17:02:01


   
Made in de
Waaagh! Ork Warboss on Warbike





Slipspace wrote:
I'm genuinely confused how people can find playing against unpainted armies unfun to the point they will refuse a game against them. Doubly so when the poster I replied to specifically said gaming was one part of the hobby as a whole and then said they wouldn't take part in that side of the hobby with someone who hadn't taken part in one of the other (rather arbitrarily designated) parts of the hobby. Like, I understand you'd prefer to play on a brilliantly modelled board with fantastic terrain against a well-painted army, and I think all gamers would probably prefer that as the pinnacle of the hobby, but I just can't understand a situation where someone says no to a game because the opponent hasn't painted their army, especially because the poster in question specifically said they'd wait and not play at all until such an opponent materialises. So if no such opponent exists in their area they just wouldn't play? Yeah, not too logical to me.


From what I understand, the difference is whether you are playing WH40k as a wargame or if you are playing it as a tabletop board game.

Wargaming is closer to having a model railway - it's more about having epic or historic scenes unfold while moving about models and less about either side actually winning the game. Just like you wouldn't run an unpainted train through your beautifully crafted landscape, those people wouldn't want an unpainted tank lumbering over their battlefield.

All assuming rational people, of course. There are also people who throw a fit because a vibrating mobile phone ruins their immersion or because you painted your apothecary in a non-canon color. Feth them.

In any case, neither the wargamers nor the tabletop players are wrong. However, anyone claiming either is not properly participating in the hobby most definitely is wrong.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/18 21:21:53


 Daedalus81 wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
Yes, because everyone lines up on the deployment line when facing off against orkz, especially when said orkz are fielding 3 Bonebreakers...which rely exclusively on getting into CC to inflict any kind of actual harm. All of your arguments rely upon your opponent being a brain dead muppet who just lets you maul him.


Yea...that's called board control.
 
   
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Rotting Sorcerer of Nurgle





In My Lab

 Jidmah wrote:
Slipspace wrote:
I'm genuinely confused how people can find playing against unpainted armies unfun to the point they will refuse a game against them. Doubly so when the poster I replied to specifically said gaming was one part of the hobby as a whole and then said they wouldn't take part in that side of the hobby with someone who hadn't taken part in one of the other (rather arbitrarily designated) parts of the hobby. Like, I understand you'd prefer to play on a brilliantly modelled board with fantastic terrain against a well-painted army, and I think all gamers would probably prefer that as the pinnacle of the hobby, but I just can't understand a situation where someone says no to a game because the opponent hasn't painted their army, especially because the poster in question specifically said they'd wait and not play at all until such an opponent materialises. So if no such opponent exists in their area they just wouldn't play? Yeah, not too logical to me.


From what I understand, the difference is whether you are playing WH40k as a wargame or if you are playing it as a tabletop board game.

Wargaming is closer to having a model railway - it's more about having epic or historic scenes unfold while moving about models and less about either side actually winning the game. Just like you wouldn't run an unpainted train through your beautifully crafted landscape, those people wouldn't want an unpainted tank lumbering over their battlefield.

All assuming rational people, of course. There are also people who throw a fit because a vibrating mobile phone ruins their immersion or because you painted your apothecary in a non-canon color. Feth them.

In any case, neither the wargamers nor the tabletop players are wrong. However, anyone claiming either is not properly participating in the hobby most definitely is wrong.
I object to your exact wording-to me, a wargame is a simulation of war in game format. Armies fighting other armies, attempting to achieve objectives. It has nothing to do with spectacle.

Your general point, though, is a good one-I merely think you chose the wrong term.

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Good enough for a tabletop gamer I guess

 Daedalus81 wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
Yes, because everyone lines up on the deployment line when facing off against orkz, especially when said orkz are fielding 3 Bonebreakers...which rely exclusively on getting into CC to inflict any kind of actual harm. All of your arguments rely upon your opponent being a brain dead muppet who just lets you maul him.


Yea...that's called board control.
 
   
Made in us
Rotting Sorcerer of Nurgle





In My Lab

 Jidmah wrote:
Good enough for a tabletop gamer I guess
Harsh.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
 
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