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Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 Mr.Omega wrote:
 Blood Hawk wrote:
 Mr.Omega wrote:
Remember when Space Marines were meant to be an army that revolved around strategy and making otherwise individually underwhelming units work in concert?


Haha nevermind here's a unit with nothing but double range meltaguns that fire twice such that it nukes vehicles that dare to exist within 24'' of it with minimal effort or brainpower involved

I remember those editions. I also remember space marines being easy wins at tournaments for any competitive Xenos player.


And now we have a faction that has virtually no identity, that if you don't want to lose hard with, you have to make a ghastly looking, boring soup of superficially related units that involves whatever ridiculous pandering meta-based supermarine unit is in this year, (insert centurions, aggressors and eradicators here) minimal investment troops, some near invincible melee beatstick and other nonsense besides

Yes who am I kidding this is so much better

IOW, I'm sad that Marine players don't need literally free units and deathstars to do stuff.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
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Confessor Of Sins




 Slayer6 wrote:
I'm going to say these will initially be 29 points each - if they are 30+ then they will not provide as much incentive for people to mass buy them. They can then have the option to nerf them later on by increasing the cost when sales start declining. Look at them objectively - they have 6 total wounds... sure it's T5/3+ but that's it... There's no ++, no way to unload a large number of shots, no meat to absorb casualties - these will die, and badly to anything on a subsequent turn. As for the deep strike - screening units 4" around the target can eliminate the Melta bonus. So that's 6 shots with no bonus Melta rolls...

A Scion Command Squad can do the same thing with 4 Meltaguns - and if it's Iotan Gorgonnes, can deploy 5" away (within melta range, and able to mess with screens a whole lot easier)... The fact that they wont DS until T2, also means a Valkyrie Melta drop on T1 trumps these as well.

So in actuality, these are merely glass cannons until GW decides to give them a ++ or even more W...


Yeah, they have 9 wounds.

24" range also means they don't need to deepstrike. You can just start them on the table out of LoS and move(or move and advance) and shoot. All for around 100-125pts(supposedly)

Do you know what 9 wounds with FOUR multimelta shots cost sisters of battle? 183 points. For another 10 you can add 2 melta shots once per game.

To get the same unbuffed output marines have, Sisters of battle, who are supposed to be all melta all the time, have to pay almost double and only get it for one turn. Add marine buffs, especially salamanders, and it totally outstrips what a unit 2 times more expensive than them can do.

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 Mr.Omega wrote:
 Blood Hawk wrote:
 Mr.Omega wrote:
Remember when Space Marines were meant to be an army that revolved around strategy and making otherwise individually underwhelming units work in concert?


Haha nevermind here's a unit with nothing but double range meltaguns that fire twice such that it nukes vehicles that dare to exist within 24'' of it with minimal effort or brainpower involved

I remember those editions. I also remember space marines being easy wins at tournaments for any competitive Xenos player.


And now we have a faction that has virtually no identity, that if you don't want to lose hard with, you have to make a ghastly looking, boring soup of superficially related units that involves whatever ridiculous pandering meta-based supermarine unit is in this year, (insert centurions, aggressors and eradicators here) minimal investment troops, some near invincible melee beatstick and other nonsense besides

Yes who am I kidding this is so much better

Eh, I like the primaris myself and find your post very off base. But you are entitled to your opinion.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/30 01:05:10


 
   
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 JNAProductions wrote:
They're W3, not W2.


Which is still only 9 total. Aggressors look tough on paper but in practice they're cardboard. In a 1000 point meta I need at least eight of them if I want to reliably have any left by turn 2.

   
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Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

So these guys will be getting a bump to 3-6 per unit once they get a proper kit, yes?

   
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I understand why everyone is comparing these things to anti-vehicle infantry, but I think there's another unit that they should be compared to: Chaos Space Marines. Csm are 5pl (I had to check as I don't play pl), the same price as these. Can anyone explain why that makes sense?
   
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The Eternity Gate

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
I understand why everyone is comparing these things to anti-vehicle infantry, but I think there's another unit that they should be compared to: Chaos Space Marines. Csm are 5pl (I had to check as I don't play pl), the same price as these. Can anyone explain why that makes sense?


As a chaos player since 3.5, GW cannot and will not ever let CSMs be as good or better as regular marines. They are the NPCs of the game who are meant to just be fodder for the heroes. Maybe I'm a bit bitter (cold and bitter) but I've never seen CSMs actually balanced against their loyalist brethren.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/30 01:27:05


01001000 01100001 01101001 01101100 00100000 01101111 01110101 01110010 00100000 01001110 01100101 01100011 01110010 01101111 01101110 00100000 01101111 01110110 01100101 01110010 01101100 01101111 01110010 01100100 01110011 00100001  
   
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 H.B.M.C. wrote:
So these guys will be getting a bump to 3-6 per unit once they get a proper kit, yes?

Maybe. Eliminators didn't.

   
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In My Lab

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
I understand why everyone is comparing these things to anti-vehicle infantry, but I think there's another unit that they should be compared to: Chaos Space Marines. Csm are 5pl (I had to check as I don't play pl), the same price as these. Can anyone explain why that makes sense?
CSM are likely going to see a revamp of PL, so I doubt they're still gonna be 5 PL at 5-man in 9th, at least once their Dex drops.

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 Daedalus81 wrote:
 catbarf wrote:
Here's a comparable platform: Kataphron Destroyers. They're T5, W3, but only a 4+ save, and more importantly only BS4+. They do ignore Heavy penalties when moving, so that gives them comparable mobility.

Their Plasma Culverin is D6 shots (so 3.5 average) at a Plasma Cannon profile. So overcharged, they get 3.5 shots at D2 each, while the melta rifles are 2 shots at D3.5 (average) each, for comparable firepower, although the Culverin has the edge against W2 infantry. The Culverin has 36" range, but also explodes on a 1 (which, even with re-rolls, can happen when 3 of them are firing ~11 shots).

Kataphrons with Plasma Culverins are 42pts apiece. If 33-35pts is right for Eradicators, then that implies the Kataphrons (less accurate, less durable) ought to be more like 25-30pts- that's a huge drop for a unit that isn't anywhere near Fire Dragon levels of terrible, and I would argue is an unreasonably low price for a tough platform toting essentially twin plasma cannons.

Even with the presumption that Kataphrons are a bit overpriced, I see Eradicators being fair at no less than 45pts per model. With typical Marine buffs they're going to throw out a stupid amount of firepower, even at that price easily making back their points in one turn by slagging a Leman Russ from full health.


Shaky ground. KD's with Elimination Volley and Canticle come pretty damn close to those guys (I haven't read the new PA yet). Dropping their points would make them massively better when popping that strat. Yes, I understand the conundrum this creates, but Eradicators are less likely to have a stratagem to pump them up so there's a delicate balance there.


A better comparison is the Kataphron Breacher with the torsion cannon. They're T5, W3, 3+save, And have a 1 shot, Str 8, AP-4 24” range Dd6 Weapon (without the melta rule, or double shooting) and are only BS4. GW prices them at PL 8. But since Eradicaters are the hot new Primaris model, they get melta rule, double shot, etc... for PL 5.

GW over the course of 2 years CA points drops made those PL 8 Kataphrons with torsion cannon....39 points. If 9th edition eradicaters are 33-35 points, then kataphron breachers should be going down in 9th, instead of increased.
   
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 buddha wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
I understand why everyone is comparing these things to anti-vehicle infantry, but I think there's another unit that they should be compared to: Chaos Space Marines. Csm are 5pl (I had to check as I don't play pl), the same price as these. Can anyone explain why that makes sense?


As a chaos player since 3.5, GW cannot and will not ever let CSMs be as good or better as regular marines. They are the NPCs of the game who are meant to just be fodder for the heroes. Maybe I'm a bit bitter (cold and bitter) but I've never seen CSMs actually balanced against their loyalist brethren.

In 2nd and 3.0 CMS kicked loyalists up and down the field all day long. It was actually a little depressing how much worse loyalists were than CSM in 2nd.

   
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In My Lab

The Newman wrote:
 buddha wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
I understand why everyone is comparing these things to anti-vehicle infantry, but I think there's another unit that they should be compared to: Chaos Space Marines. Csm are 5pl (I had to check as I don't play pl), the same price as these. Can anyone explain why that makes sense?


As a chaos player since 3.5, GW cannot and will not ever let CSMs be as good or better as regular marines. They are the NPCs of the game who are meant to just be fodder for the heroes. Maybe I'm a bit bitter (cold and bitter) but I've never seen CSMs actually balanced against their loyalist brethren.

In 2nd and 3.0 CMS kicked loyalists up and down the field all day long. It was actually a little depressing how much worse loyalists were than CSM in 2nd.
So wouldn't the solution be making things balanced, rather than just seesawing to make Loyalists OP?

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My initial thought was "awesome! Melta! Awesome! Double shots!"

My second thought was "oh right there's too many invulns in my meta to make this worth it"
   
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Brisbane

Alright my mistake they are 3W. I won't edit my reply to hide the mistake.

That still doesn't change the fact that it's still only a couple of shots which can partially be mitigated by screening...

Hotshot Lasguns with FRFSRF will completely decimate them. So their cost needs to be lower to justify how fragile they are.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/30 01:31:45


I will not rest until the Tabletop Imperial Guard has been reduced to complete mediocrity. This is completely reflected in the lore. 
   
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 H.B.M.C. wrote:
So these guys will be getting a bump to 3-6 per unit once they get a proper kit, yes?


Who knows. They may not even get a proper get later on.

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In My Lab

 Slayer6 wrote:
Alright my mistake they are 3W. I won't edit my reply to hide the mistake.

That still doesn't change the fact that it's still only a couple of shots which can partially be mitigated by screening...

Hotshot Lasguns with FRFSRF will completely decimate them. So their cost needs to be lower to justify how fragile they are.
Decimation is not that bad. Losing 1 wound doesn't impact that at all.

As for devastating them, well...

If you're the 5" Deep Strike regiment, for immediate Rapid Fire, you would need...

9 failed saves
27/2 wounds
81/2 hits
243/4 shots, or just over 60.

Admittedly, that's only 160-odd points of units, but couple of things.

1) That's in 8th edition points-it'll get more pricey.
2) The unit you're attacking, is still cheaper.
3) You're doing that T2, unless you want to start your squishy butts on the field.
4) You're definitely losing them afterwards. 20 or so T3 4+ Wounds, within Rapid Fire Range, won't last long.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
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 Sasori wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
So these guys will be getting a bump to 3-6 per unit once they get a proper kit, yes?


Who knows. They may not even get a proper get later on.

GW can't be bothered to do it for Suppressors and Eliminators so who knows.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Slayer6 wrote:
Alright my mistake they are 3W. I won't edit my reply to hide the mistake.

That still doesn't change the fact that it's still only a couple of shots which can partially be mitigated by screening...

Hotshot Lasguns with FRFSRF will completely decimate them. So their cost needs to be lower to justify how fragile they are.


They're much less fragile than multi-melta devastators, which are 35 points each. They have 3x the wounds and an extra point of toughness. And can double shoot, have assault weapons instead of heavy weapons, and an extra attack.

They should be 45 points even in 8th. Assuming a 20% increase, that's over 50 in 9th.

   
Made in us
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yukishiro1 wrote:
 Slayer6 wrote:
Alright my mistake they are 3W. I won't edit my reply to hide the mistake.

That still doesn't change the fact that it's still only a couple of shots which can partially be mitigated by screening...

Hotshot Lasguns with FRFSRF will completely decimate them. So their cost needs to be lower to justify how fragile they are.


They're much less fragile than multi-melta devastators, which are 35 points each. They have 3x the wounds and an extra point of toughness. And can double shoot, have assault weapons instead of heavy weapons, and an extra attack.

They should be 45 points even in 8th. Assuming a 20% increase, that's over 50 in 9th.


Except Multi-Melta Devs are terrible, not even taking into account their durability.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord





In My Lab

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
yukishiro1 wrote:
 Slayer6 wrote:
Alright my mistake they are 3W. I won't edit my reply to hide the mistake.

That still doesn't change the fact that it's still only a couple of shots which can partially be mitigated by screening...

Hotshot Lasguns with FRFSRF will completely decimate them. So their cost needs to be lower to justify how fragile they are.


They're much less fragile than multi-melta devastators, which are 35 points each. They have 3x the wounds and an extra point of toughness. And can double shoot, have assault weapons instead of heavy weapons, and an extra attack.

They should be 45 points even in 8th. Assuming a 20% increase, that's over 50 in 9th.


Except Multi-Melta Devs are terrible, not even taking into account their durability.
So compare to the much less terrible Lascannon Devs.

They're still a thousand times better.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
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The Void

 buddha wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
I understand why everyone is comparing these things to anti-vehicle infantry, but I think there's another unit that they should be compared to: Chaos Space Marines. Csm are 5pl (I had to check as I don't play pl), the same price as these. Can anyone explain why that makes sense?


As a chaos player since 3.5, GW cannot and will not ever let CSMs be as good or better as regular marines. They are the NPCs of the game who are meant to just be fodder for the heroes. Maybe I'm a bit bitter (cold and bitter) but I've never seen CSMs actually balanced against their loyalist brethren.


CSM has often been badly represented, but it doesn't have power issues. In 5th, Chaos Lash lists trounced loyalist lists without issue. In 8th, Chaos has had multiple top tier lists, while loyalists had 1 (gman and razorbacks) that then got nerfed, and then had no real top tier lists until their new codex.

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Mariongodspeed wrote:
A better comparison is the Kataphron Breacher with the torsion cannon. They're T5, W3, 3+save, And have a 1 shot, Str 8, AP-4 24” range Dd6 Weapon (without the melta rule, or double shooting) and are only BS4. GW prices them at PL 8. But since Eradicaters are the hot new Primaris model, they get melta rule, double shot, etc... for PL 5.

GW over the course of 2 years CA points drops made those PL 8 Kataphrons with torsion cannon....39 points. If 9th edition eradicaters are 33-35 points, then kataphron breachers should be going down in 9th, instead of increased.


Oh thanks, didn't even think to look.

And yeah, all the 'but melta is just terrible' falls flat on its face with these ready comparisons to non-melta units. Kataphrons aren't terribly overpriced, and Eradicators beat the living hell out of Kataphrons. Eradicators being cheaper makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.
   
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 H.B.M.C. wrote:
So these guys will be getting a bump to 3-6 per unit once they get a proper kit, yes?


Eliminators have a proper kit tthough? It could go either way.

   
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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Sasori wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
So these guys will be getting a bump to 3-6 per unit once they get a proper kit, yes?


Who knows. They may not even get a proper get later on.

GW can't be bothered to do it for Suppressors and Eliminators so who knows.


Yeah, it seems since Shadowspear that we may start seeing more easy to build kits become a part of the standard lineup.

A good chunk of the new Necron units look like they may end up being permanent easy to build.

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Ute nation

Color me unimpressed, it's a 3 wound model with t5 no invul and a 24" range. Trust me when I say if that were a good stat combination necrons would know, because we've had that statline this entire edition in destroyers, who are way more killy than these guys. The issue isn't output, it's staying power, Units of destroyers pop like soap bubbles, and these guys will as well.

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 Daedalus81 wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
So these guys will be getting a bump to 3-6 per unit once they get a proper kit, yes?


Eliminators have a proper kit tthough? It could go either way.



The Sisters of Battle Exorcist is widely regarded as one of the best, if not THE best unit in the entire sisters of battle codex. 3d3 Shots at 48" range S8, AP-3, d6 damage.

These are 6 shots at 24" range S8, AP-4, D6 damage melta.

That's 6*.667*.667*.833*3.5= 7.78 against a Rhino chassis Vs. 6*.667*.667*3.5= 9.3 vs the same Rhino chassis, with it going even in the eradicators favor inside of 12". Buffs roughly equal out with better stratagem support and miracle dice countering better reroll support and salamanders (more or less, though you could argue that marines are still favored here)

Yes, the exorcist has a longer range with a higher toughness and more total wounds, but it's also as much as 70 points more expensive than these are BEFORE the 9th ed bump and is still considered an extremely competitive unit in the sisters list.

If eradicators ship at 100pts for 3 I can't really imagine taking anything but them if you need D6 damage. Even eating X CP for a marine spear/vanguard/outrider (whatever slot they are) these are still likely to be your best bet for dedicated anti-vehicle in a lot of imperial armies.


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ERJAK wrote:
Even eating X CP for a marine spear/vanguard/outrider (whatever slot they are) these are still likely to be your best bet for dedicated anti-vehicle in a lot of imperial armies.



Huh...You just made me realize that the datasheets don't have the unit type markings. But this raises a good issue with list building. They're likely heavy. Taking 3 of these means no eliminators, TFCs, etc without another detachment. Are people going to trade out for a suicide squad? Hmm...

   
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 Grimgold wrote:
Color me unimpressed, it's a 3 wound model with t5 no invul and a 24" range. Trust me when I say if that were a good stat combination necrons would know, because we've had that statline this entire edition in destroyers, who are way more killy than these guys. The issue isn't output, it's staying power, Units of destroyers pop like soap bubbles, and these guys will as well.


Destroyers aren't anywhere near as killy as these. One less shot, sure, but +2S, +1AP and 6d damage.

Destroyer Vs Rhino: 1.2 wounds

Heavy Destroyer Vs Rhino: 1.68 wounds

Eradicator Vs Rhino: 3.11 wounds.

A little bit more fair

Destroyer VS Eradicator: 2.4 wounds

Eradicator Vs Eradicator: 2.6 wounds (keeping in mind damage is capped at 3)

Against Rhino chassis targets Eradicators do 2.5 times the damage of a destroyer at the same statline while also doing 8-10% more damage vs the Destroyers ideal targets.

Now I'm not 100% familiar with Necron army rules and what you can buff your destroyers with, but I doubt it's much better than what marines have.

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 Grimgold wrote:
Color me unimpressed, it's a 3 wound model with t5 no invul and a 24" range. Trust me when I say if that were a good stat combination necrons would know, because we've had that statline this entire edition in destroyers, who are way more killy than these guys. The issue isn't output, it's staying power, Units of destroyers pop like soap bubbles, and these guys will as well.


Except you can put them in a flying rhino with a 4++ or DS them and with new LOS terrain rules they wont be hard to hide after they have disembarked and pick their firing lanes/chokepoints.


https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/772746.page#10378083 - My progress/failblog painting blog thingy

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AngryAngel80 wrote:
I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
 
   
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 Argive wrote:
 Grimgold wrote:
Color me unimpressed, it's a 3 wound model with t5 no invul and a 24" range. Trust me when I say if that were a good stat combination necrons would know, because we've had that statline this entire edition in destroyers, who are way more killy than these guys. The issue isn't output, it's staying power, Units of destroyers pop like soap bubbles, and these guys will as well.


Except you can put them in a flying rhino with a 4++ or DS them and with new LOS terrain rules they wont be hard to hide after they have disembarked and pick their firing lanes/chokepoints.

Gravis units can't go in an Impulsor.

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