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BrianDavion wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

highwind01 wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
So gw continues to pump up the games killing factor. I wonder if they'll jack up the damage for the heavy guns overcharge mode or just stick with more strength. At least they aren't giving primaris 3W.

Kinda short-sighted view...
Oldmarines getting 2W comes with an increase in points, leading to fewer models on the table and therefore fewer guns/output. They consequently adjust weapons so that 2000 points of Marines still dish out like 2000 points of Marines are supposed to do, even if they lose 20-25% of their bodies/weapons.

Besides the Hellblasters "heavy" weapon was a pure joke before, it def needed adjustment and upping its D by 1 is probably the best way possible.

Right, classic marines are going to be more expensive and therefore there will be less of them. Hellblasters, however, are primaris, not classic marines. They'll be the same price, but with better guns. You can get just as many hellblasters as before, but now they'll be better. This is a straight buff, I'm not saying it's a bad thing, but it's an improvement to a unit that hasn't been seeing a lot of use, not some grand balancing plan.

Have you EVER seen anyone take hellblasters with anything BUT the rapid fire guns? this is an attempt to make the hellblasters other weapons options worth while. the gun everyone uses anyway isn't being buffed. this isn't an upgrade so much as a sidegrade

Tell that to the first person that eats 90 S7 Ap-4 D3 shots.

that's 1000 points of hellblasters and his entire heavy support selection (meaning no eradicators, no eliminators etc) frankly any list built that way is gonna be a one trick pony,




So scouts are confirmed to be remaining at one wound.

When your one trick is killing 57 intercessors or 9 rhinos per turn(that's with 2 damage, we're gonna ignore the IF/DA ability to go up to 3), you're probably gonna be okay.

 MinscS2 wrote:
Scouts being 1W makes no sense from a fluff-perspective, which bugs me a little.

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't Scouts just less experienced firstborn in worse armor, but who from a physiological standpoint are exactly the same as firstborn?
I.e, 4+ save and T4 makes sense, 1W does not (especially not on the sgt.)

IDK, I like that their roles are getting substantially differentiated from Marines proper. What's wrong with this, as long as the points reflect it? And what if the 2W vs. 1W reflects some of the benefits of power armor, which includes ablative plates for instance?

ERJAK wrote:

Tell that to the first person that eats 90 S7 Ap-4 D3 shots.

Are you presuming Dark Angels for D3?

ERJAK wrote:
When your one trick is killing 57 intercessors or 9 rhinos per turn(that's with 2 damage, we're gonna ignore the IF/DA ability to go up to 3), you're probably gonna be okay.

Yes, ignore the IF Legacy of Dorn ability completely, because it doesn't work on assault weapons? And the DA stratagem can be used on one unit. Where are you getting 90 shots at damage 3?

 Daedalus81 wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

Tell that to the first person that eats 90 S7 Ap-4 D3 shots.

Are you presuming Dark Angels for D3?

Sort of. I realize that technically only 30 of those shots can get to D3, so the rest was hyperbole. That said, even at 2 damage that's still a metric fethton of damage.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mchagen wrote:

ERJAK wrote:
When your one trick is killing 57 intercessors or 9 rhinos per turn(that's with 2 damage, we're gonna ignore the IF/DA ability to go up to 3), you're probably gonna be okay.

Yes, ignore the IF Legacy of Dorn ability completely, because it doesn't work on assault weapons? And the DA stratagem can be used on one unit. Where are you getting 90 shots at damage 3?

That's my oopsy. Didn't use it in the calc though so who cares? That's 57 int or 9 rhinos without it still.

Because you're stating it as though it's somehow attainable to get 3 damage on all the shots or even possible for Imperial Fists for d3. So people care and think this unit is even more brokenly op now.

I want to see the codex and points changes before making that claim though.

 spiralingcadaver wrote:
And what if the 2W vs. 1W reflects some of the benefits of power armor, which includes ablative plates for instance?

Gimmee for my sisters!

So sorry I sold my RT marines. Man I would love to field an army of them now at T4, 2W.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 spiralingcadaver wrote:
And what if the 2W vs. 1W reflects some of the benefits of power armor, which includes ablative plates for instance?

Gimmee for my sisters!

Blimey what a can of worms.

 Manchu wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 spiralingcadaver wrote:
And what if the 2W vs. 1W reflects some of the benefits of power armor, which includes ablative plates for instance?

Gimmee for my sisters!

Blimey what a can of worms.

Yessssss!!!

Honestly a 1W Scout as a troop option is consistent with the lore, the fluff and the logic in the universe.

Scouts aren't full Marines and aren't in full power armour. They are still growing their enhanced organs.

I'd say a Sergeant should get +1W but there may be allowances for that in the Codex.

But depending on the final points cost of the New Scouts hopefully they won't be MarineLite to allow filling troops to bring in the big guns.

At cheap 1W vs almost as cheap 2W it is going to make for some interesting army lists, I hope.

I *DO* think there is a market and a game play gap for a Scout bases Marine Chapter. There is plenty of ways you could motivate for it. Sorta like the Raven Guard but without jump packs and more stealthy. (Alpha Legion successors?)

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
So sorry I sold my RT marines. Man I would love to field an army of them now at T4, 2W.

I took a (almost) pure RT army out a few battles ago. They had a pretty good showing, down to the final die roll close (which did not come up in my favor)

Fighting the good fight for the Emperor, since back at the dawn of time!

I’m looking forward to what 9th and the new dex will do for them. So far seeing a lot of good things.

 Nevelon wrote:

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
So sorry I sold my RT marines. Man I would love to field an army of them now at T4, 2W.

I took a (almost) pure RT army out a few battles ago. They had a pretty good showing, down to the final die roll close (which did not come up in my favor)

Fighting the good fight for the Emperor, since back at the dawn of time!

I’m looking forward to what 9th and the new dex will do for them. So far seeing a lot of good things.

Heavy Bolter Beakie and the Captain?

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
So sorry I sold my RT marines. Man I would love to field an army of them now at T4, 2W.

HA! I have one tac squad left that I had put away about a decade ago with the original missile launcher - hooray for beige plastics! Gonna break it out and assemble it (going to get a good chuckle fielding the "hunch backed" marines side by side with primaris…)

Kayback wrote:Heavy Bolter Beakie and the Captain?

The HB (who is in a full suit of Mk. VI, although 7th? edition era) and one of the flamers is from 3rd. There is an off chance some of sculpts are a little over the line into 2nd (I’ve got 2 eras of thunderhammers, and actually picked them up covered in dust sometime around 4th edition) but I think the rest are RT

dr_sarcasm wrote:HA! I have one tac squad left that I had put away about a decade ago with the original missile launcher - hooray for beige plastics! Gonna break it out and assemble it (going to get a good chuckle fielding the "hunch backed" marines side by side with primaris…)

I love fielding the old alongside the new. They fill slightly different tactical roles and make for a nice balanced force. I’ve been fielding beakies non-stop up until now, no reason to slow down.

dr_sarcasm wrote:

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
So sorry I sold my RT marines. Man I would love to field an army of them now at T4, 2W.

HA! I have one tac squad left that I had put away about a decade ago with the original missile launcher - hooray for beige plastics! Gonna break it out and assemble it (going to get a good chuckle fielding the "hunch backed" marines side by side with primaris…)

I had a box of 3 ETB Primaris, the only ones I own, out and took this pic while stripping my Space Crusade guys to repaint. My RT guys weren't out and now they are my ETB is in pieces to be painted, but you can see what the difference will be like

Huh, not as bad as I thought.

BrianDavion wrote:
Necrons are getting a lot of their classic units completely redone so we're seeing less new datasheets for them as GW's not bothering to rebox the old stuff. So yeah it's MOSTLY Marine stuff for now.

Eh mostly new units actually. Warriors which we knew, monolith. That's about it for old unit redone. Rest are new units.


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Kayback wrote:

dr_sarcasm wrote:

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
So sorry I sold my RT marines. Man I would love to field an army of them now at T4, 2W.

HA! I have one tac squad left that I had put away about a decade ago with the original missile launcher - hooray for beige plastics! Gonna break it out and assemble it (going to get a good chuckle fielding the "hunch backed" marines side by side with primaris…)

I had a box of 3 ETB Primaris, the only ones I own, out and took this pic while stripping my Space Crusade guys to repaint. My RT guys weren't out and now they are my ETB is in pieces to be painted, but you can see what the difference will be like

Well looks to be about head taller. With marines 7 feet and primaris 8 feet close enough

That's a RT era marine? It somehow looks vastly better than the last generations of plastic firstborns.

 Jidmah wrote:
That's a RT era marine? It somehow looks vastly better than the last generations of plastic firstborns.

That's a bit of a stretch. Space Crusade models aren't bad and certainly weren't at the time. Some of it I'd say is owed to the power armor design that is friendly to being cast in one body part plus weapon and backpack. GW used that to good effect in the 4th ed to 6th ed starter sets and perhaps less good effect in the 2nd ed starter set.

The thing that is very apparent about them is the lack of undercuts, which is just as present on the aforementioned later edition starter Marines, but there's also a lack of depth. Look at a Battle for Macragge Marine next to a Space Crusade Marine. The former has, for instance, a sculpted neck with the neck seal detailed and clearly visible. The Space Crusade Marine has the helmet very close to the torso so that there is no need for any recessed detail.

Additionally, detail is somewhat soft on them. There's just no comparison even to GW's 3rd ed Marine remake, let alone any modern kit.

Now don't get me wrong, GW does have models from that era that if it weren't for scale creep would hold up well to this day. I like to point to Azrael whenever I say that. I'm also quite fond of the sculpting style from back then. But considering them "vastly better" than modern Marine models is a bit much in my opinion.

Thanks for that rundown Geifer, some good insights for those of us who weren't around for it.

I wasn't into Space Crusade, but yeah, everything else about that assessment rings true. There were a handful of very nice models, but there were a lot where their poses (like this) look like they're trying to hunch their shoulders up and hide their neck so the sculptors can hide undercuts or otherwise cast in as few parts as possible.

Almost every model from 1st or early 2nd that I really like is either because of the idea or the creativity. Mid 2nd-3rd is when most armies started getting the identifiable look they have now, regarding stable look and better sculpting/casting. There's a reason that GW's oldest models they've continued to produce are from then and not 1st and it isn't just style.

 Jidmah wrote:
That's a RT era marine? It somehow looks vastly better than the last generations of plastic firstborns.

My RT plastics and some early metal mini's too with my Primaris.

Edit, those RT's were not destroyed by me, they were rescues and I have not identified what they were originally painted in, looked like cement. I salvaged what I could and they lost some detail in the process.

You know it's old when the base is solid green.

So with the Profiles of Primaris and Secundus Marines getting significantly closer does anyone think there will be any easing up of restrictions on whom can ride what transport? In the Fluff Primaris already ride Drop-pods, and there is no fluff reason a Secundus Captain couldn't ride in a Primaris Impulsor. After all the Inquisitor can.

No, not if the keywording remains the same.

Justyn wrote:
So with the Profiles of Primaris and Secundus Marines getting significantly closer does anyone think there will be any easing up of restrictions on whom can ride what transport? In the Fluff Primaris already ride Drop-pods, and there is no fluff reason a Secundus Captain couldn't ride in a Primaris Impulsor. After all the Inquisitor can.

Inquisitors can't ride in an Impulsor. Authority of the Inquisition allows Inquisitors to ignore Faction Keywords when embarking onto Transports, but not other Keywords. <Primaris>, like <Terminator>, is not a Faction Keyword, but a normal Keyword (look at any Primaris Datasheet), so Inquisitors can't use their Authority to ignore it.

Waruck wrote:

Justyn wrote:
So with the Profiles of Primaris and Secundus Marines getting significantly closer does anyone think there will be any easing up of restrictions on whom can ride what transport? In the Fluff Primaris already ride Drop-pods, and there is no fluff reason a Secundus Captain couldn't ride in a Primaris Impulsor. After all the Inquisitor can.

Inquisitors can't ride in an Impulsor. Authority of the Inquisition allows Inquisitors to ignore Faction Keywords when embarking onto Transports, but not other Keywords. <Primaris>, like <Terminator>, is not a Faction Keyword, but a normal Keyword (look at any Primaris Datasheet), so Inquisitors can't use their Authority to ignore it.

Sorry, but now if I ever buy a Primaris vehicle I’m going to have to paint a little silhouette on the back with a sign that reads “You must be at least this Primaris to enter”!